Claire Sugden
East Londonderry · Independent · Northern Ireland
“That is, gosh, almost 35 years ago, yet we are still having the conversation in 2026. If I were to speak to that eight-year-old girl, I would tell her, "When you are 40, Claire, this will not even be a consideration for you". Sadly, however, it still is. It is deeply disappointing that, when we had an opportunity, it was not taken.”
“Indeed, I tabled an amendment to that Bill to achieve the desired outcome, but, sadly, the opportunity was not taken. One of the strengths of the Assembly is that Committees can identify where Executive legislation has fallen short and produce their own practical, targeted solutions.”
“Frankly, we should be listening. Sometimes, we talk about equality in broad terms, but the Bill reminds us that equality is often about practical things. It is about removing unnecessary barriers from everyday life and ensuring that opportunities and choices do not depend on arbitrary differences between schools.”
“That is ridiculous. The point that we should all pay attention to is that of girls feeling less exposed. We should focus on that even if there were no other reasons to pass the legislation. Girls simply want to get on with their school day without having to think about something that most boys take for granted.”
“That meeting was a reminder that issues that can appear small to adults — there have been adults who have asked why the Assembly is legislating on this — can be issues on which we need to legislate. When people do not behave appropriately, we as a legislature have a responsibility to legislate.”
“Around one in seven couples in Northern Ireland experiences fertility problems, yet Northern Ireland continues to offer one of the most limited publicly funded fertility services anywhere in the United Kingdom. Couples face lengthy waits, restricted eligibility criteria and fewer publicly funded IVF opportunities than elsewhere.”
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“It will not be just the Minister of Health and I who will do that; there will be a focus right across the Executive and, indeed, the Assembly, and I appreciate the debate that we are having on the issue. <BR /> <BR />The Tánaiste, who is also my counterpart in the Republic of Ireland, also recognises that issue. It might not necessarily be from a legacy perspective — mental health issues come from a number of perspectives — but we recognise that mental health is an issue in our prisons and something that we are all keen to address.”
“I am glad to say that my colleague on the Northern Ireland Executive, the Minister of Health, recognises the issues with mental health in prisons. As I have reiterated to Members time and again, it is not just prisoners but prison officers. <BR /> <BR />One of my biggest realisations since becoming Minister is that there is a legacy of mental health throughout Northern Ireland because of the impact of the Troubles. The Troubles in Northern Ireland were quite a significant thing, and I think that we are starting to see the outworkings of that now, particularly in people who find themselves at retirement age and perhaps having more time to think about those issues. We have to have quite a holistic approach.”
“I thank the Member for his question. Yes, indeed, there has been a focus from me and the Tánaiste on the mental health issues that we have in the criminal justice system. Indeed, it seems that a lot of those who come into the criminal justice system have had some sort of trauma in their lives, which has led either to an addiction or a mental health issue. The way to tackle that is to strip it right back almost as a preventative measure so that we find fewer people coming into the criminal justice system. I almost want to make myself redundant, in that if we were to tackle mental health issues earlier in life, even in other areas such as domestic violence that I have talked a lot about in the past week, it will stop people coming into the criminal justice system and, unfortunately, into custody.”
“Perhaps they are not aware of that detail but, from my perspective, I am keen to see how we can put Northern Ireland at the heart of all this and put our best foot forward.”
“<BR /> <BR />We need to put our best foot forward on Brexit. Indeed, my Department was looking at the potential implications even before the outcome of the referendum was realised. Any of the work that we are doing is a matter of progress and, in order to put the best foot forward, we will do what we have to, including me maintaining the strong relationship that I have with my counterpart in the Republic of Ireland — and, indeed, the east-west connection. I have had a number of meetings with the Secretary of State and officials in the new Brexit Department of the UK Government. It is something that we are all working towards, and I do not think that anyone could accuse us of not having a focus on it.”
“I thank the Member for his question. The implications of Brexit are wide-ranging. This will not be an easy transition and, certainly from a Justice Department perspective, there are a number of mechanisms that we are quite keen to ensure we hold on to, including, as the Member mentioned, the European arrest warrant. I will give a very basic outline of what that is. It is based on the principle of mutual recognition of judicial decisions, which simplifies the administrative system and reduces the capacity for delay. That is an important mechanism. The Member rightly points out that that was nearly lost a couple of years ago in one of the pre-Lisbon treaties. The UK Government decided to opt out of a number of measures, including the European arrest warrant, but very quickly realised that they had to opt back in.”
“For example, we want to ensure that the common travel area continues to operate in a way that promotes peace, stability and prosperity right across the island and that the border is not altered in any way. That would cause unnecessary barriers from an economic, social and human perspective. <BR /> <BR />It is something that is ongoing. The Prime Minister's statement that she will trigger article 50 at the end of March next year provides a very keen focus. Indeed, at our first meeting in July, at the meeting in September and at the meeting that we will have in November, this is at the forefront. There are a lot of practical implications of Brexit, particularly around the criminal justice space, and we want to ensure that we can maintain some, if not all, of those so that we will not have any difficulties when article 50 is triggered.”
“I thank the Member for his question. Brexit will have a huge impact when it happens next year. Indeed, my Department, along with its counterpart in the Republic of Ireland, is keen to better understand the justice implications of the United Kingdom's withdrawal from the EU. It is important to remember that the Republic of Ireland did not have a say in the UK referendum, but the impact of Brexit will certainly affect it. That is why I think there is an opportunity, through my formal arrangement with the Tánaiste in the Republic of Ireland and through the intergovernmental agreement, to have a close working relationship and to better understand those implications.”
“<BR /> <BR />A lot of the crimes I talked about in the statement — financial crime, cybercrime and particularly human trafficking — are a means to an end a lot of the time. Once we capture one sort of criminal conviction, it leads to others, and in a lot of cases, it is in human trafficking. It is something that we need to be mindful of, and the joint agency task force with an Garda Síochána, the PSNI and the other agencies is a mechanism to allow that. It all leads to one bigger picture, and it will not be treated in itself. It is important that the joint agency task force has a number of areas that connect with one another.”
“I thank the Member for his question. The Member will know more than anyone in the House about the impact of human trafficking north and south of the border. In Northern Ireland, we have had a keen focus on it, and we are happy to share that information with our counterparts in an Garda Síochána. Human trafficking seems to be on the increase. I have been told that, in 2015-16, we had 59 potential victims of human trafficking recovered in Northern Ireland, which was an increase on the 46 we saw in the previous year. There is a lot of conversation between both jurisdictions, because the border provides an opportunity for those people who are trafficking victims north and south of it. We need to better understand this so that we can approach it in the right way for the victims.”
“<BR /> <BR />It is important that we maintain the discussion, particularly with the various stakeholders. Businesses are quite reluctant to come forward because of the reputational issues in these types of crimes. The Assembly and the Dáil in the South can see how we can better support businesses so that they are confident in coming forward. Financial crime in all its varying degrees will have an impact on our wider economy as much as on individual businesses. I think it is something we need to have a keen focus on, and the Tánaiste and I are quite happy to provide that focus.”
“As I am sure the Member knows, the NAMA issue is the subject of an ongoing investigation, so it would be inappropriate for me to comment. However, he raises the issue of financial crime, which I am quite happy to comment on. <BR /> <BR />From a cross-border perspective, financial crime is damaging to businesses north and south of the border. There is a focus from the PSNI and an Garda Síochána to see how they can better tackle it. I actually visited the cybercrime unit within the PSNI this morning. This is an issue that is perhaps under-reported, and the impact it is having on businesses north and south of the border is worrying. There is a keen focus on it and an opportunity to tackle it in some way, but we need to get on the front foot with it, as criminals tend to be quite far ahead in their approach to cybercrime.”
“We are trying to see how we can best satisfy the victim. From my perspective, the victim of domestic abuse has to be front and centre. The Tánaiste was quite keen to hear about the work that we are doing in Derry and how we will roll that out across Northern Ireland if, indeed, that is deemed to be the most appropriate thing to do. <BR /> <BR />To come back to your original point, problem-solving justice is a really positive way of looking at our criminal justice system, first and foremost for the public service that it provides and also for the savings in time and money that we will realise through it.”
“I thank the Member for his question. Yes, indeed. The pilot scheme that has been run in Derry Magistrates' Court around the special listing arrangements for domestic violence has been very positive. To fully realise the wider impacts of that type of court, we are enhancing those arrangements to see if it is something that we can roll out across Northern Ireland. The very essence of the problem-solving justice court is that it better supports victims in this instance so that they will perhaps attend court and give evidence that might eventually lead to a conviction of the perpetrator. <BR /> <BR />We are also potentially looking at a potential perpetrator programme. One of the biggest challenges in tackling domestic abuse is the reluctance of victims to come forward because it might lead to a prosecution of the perpetrator.”
“The Republic of Ireland will be keen to see how that plays out here, so that they can see if they can implement something similar in their policy.”
“We need to tackle it by trying to get to the root cause. It is not just about tackling domestic violence in itself; it is about the wider societal impacts that occur when we effectively address it. That, for me, from a justice perspective, is how many people we are finding in the criminal justice system who have had some association with or direct impact from domestic and sexual violence and abuse. <BR /> <BR />The Tánaiste and I are really keen to work together on this particular issue. There will be certain areas of work that she will be involved in that Northern Ireland can learn from. Equally, as I mentioned last week in the local press, I am committed to addressing that, even from a legislative perspective.”
“I am more than happy to answer the question, Mr Speaker. The Member has rightly identified one of the biggest issues that we face in the criminal justice system and in wider society. Indeed, at our second meeting, the Tánaiste and I had a discussion around the impact of domestic and sexual violence and abuse across Northern Ireland, and she was keen to know that this is one of my overarching priorities in the next five years and how we address it in the North. <BR /> <BR />As the Member so rightly put it, it is estimated that there are up to 70,000 victims across the North and South of Ireland. Those are only the ones that we know about. In Northern Ireland, it is around 28,000. To me, it is probably one of the worst types of crime because it does not discriminate. It happens to both genders, all races, all backgrounds and all religions.”
“At this stage, we are very much beginning to recognise the problem of mental health right across Northern Ireland but, particularly, in prisons. The narrative around it has been positive in the sense that perhaps this is the way of finally addressing it. I am quite keen to see what the best approaches are moving forward. That cross-cooperation, North and South, is a great way to learn from one another and see how we can both put in place best practice on this island.”
“That will require a lot of cross-cooperation with my Executive colleague in the Department of Health and her counterpart in the Executive in the South.”
“I thank the Member for her question. This is not the first time that we have addressed mental health issues in prisons. We have done so from the perspective of prison officers and prisoners. The Tánaiste was quite keen to raise the issue from her perspective of prisons in the Republic of Ireland. It is no great secret that mental health has a big impact on our criminal justice system. We should be looking at how we can better support prisoners, and prison officers in their jobs, so that we can have the best outcomes, which are safer communities. <BR /> <BR />In the intergovernmental agreement, we instructed our officials to move forward on considering the mental health issues that we are finding within prisons to see how we can better facilitate them.”
“In my meeting with the Tánaiste, she was quite keen to hear how the work that we are doing here in Northern Ireland develops and how we can better share practices, because they are keen to take a similar approach. <BR /> <BR />As the work progresses, I am quite keen to update the House on it and see how we can share best practice.”
“I thank the Member for his question. Problem-solving justice will be a key thread that runs throughout Department of Justice work in the next five years. It is quite a critical piece of work, certainly from the perspective that it would be much better if we took a more common-sense approach to dealing with criminal issues, in a way that better facilitates victims and our courts process. The outworkings of that would be a lot savings, from a financial perspective and also in time. <BR /> <BR />There are so many great opportunities with problem-solving justice, and the Republic of Ireland has a similar mindset. At this stage, we are feeling our way through those opportunities.”
“I thank the Member for his question. I have conversations day-to-day with the PSNI about the resources that they need and how I can better provide them so that they can be effective in their job. If the Chief Constable wants to have a conversation with me and see how we can move forward in the areas that the Member mentioned, I am quite happy to have those conversations.”
“It will form part of our ongoing discussions, and it is something that we have regular conversations about.”
“I thank the Member for her question. The IGA provides the opportunity to have a number of conversations with my counterpart the Tánaiste, Frances Fitzgerald, on these particular issues. The programme delivery groups will look at these areas throughout the year and come back to us. Crime in border areas — agri-crime and crime that happens in rural areas — is something that we are keen to focus on. Indeed, there was a strategy in place that would have followed through to this month. It is deemed appropriate that we continue that work because there continues to be a prevalence of rural crime in the border areas. I want to give an assurance that it is something that we are very mindful of. The opportunity that the border provides for criminals is something that we are also quite mindful of.”
“I thank the Member for his question. The cross-border cooperation that exists between the PSNI and an Garda Síochána is important in tackling a number of crimes, including sex crimes and sexual exploitation. Indeed, the information sharing that happens between the two agencies, North and South, has provided some successful outcomes in tackling that. Again, the joint agency task force is something that was agreed under the Fresh Start Agreement, and it is very much at the beginning of its work. That cooperation is something that has continued for a long time, and it is about strengthening that knowledge so that we can better tackle these types of crimes. Those crimes affect both sides of the border, and I know that the PSNI is keen to strengthen those relationships.”
“I thank the Member for his question. The purpose of the IGA in itself is the cooperation between the two jurisdictions, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, on criminal justice outcomes. The NCA's approach is something that we will be looking at within the Fresh Start arrangements. The intergovernmental agreement with the Tánaiste is about cooperation between the two jurisdictions of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.”
“The successful cooperation between our respective law enforcement agencies and the excellent engagement between our other criminal justice agencies have undoubtedly been, and will continue to be, important drivers in maintaining peace on this island. Our ability to build on the success of this cooperation will ensure that our justice systems are better equipped to meet future challenges.”
“I am committed to working closely with the Tánaiste on that issue and to building on our close working relationship as the picture on the UK and EU negotiating position becomes clearer. Our common strategic goal is to achieve the best possible outcomes following the UK's withdrawal from the EU in a way that promotes peace, stability and prosperity on the island of Ireland. Now that the Prime Minister has confirmed that article 50 will be triggered by the end of March 2017, our next IGA meeting at the end of November will provide us with an appropriate opportunity to discuss the matter further. <BR /> <BR />As I have stated before, I am committed to maintaining and indeed strengthening our excellent criminal justice cooperation with Ireland.”
“The Tánaiste and I will take receipt of the formal six-month update from the joint agency task force at our next ministerial IGA meeting in November, and I look forward to reporting further successes of the task force to the Assembly. <BR /> <BR />It is also clear that problem-solving justice is an area of mutual interest across our jurisdictions and where we could learn from each other. We have tasked our officials with liaising and ensuring that learning is shared from our respective initiatives as they develop. <BR /> <BR />At the previous IGA meeting, Frances Fitzgerald and I commissioned exploratory work to allow better understanding of the key justice issues that are likely to be affected by the UK's withdrawal from the European Union.”
“A report received at the IGA meeting noted that rural crime has remained an ongoing priority, with further operational work planned in the border areas. Human trafficking remains a concern in both jurisdictions, and a number of cross-border investigations remain active, with potential victims having been identified. Excise fraud, including fuel and tobacco-related crime, continues to be a major concern. However, as I have previously advised the Assembly, the new fuel marker appears to have led to a significant decrease in fuel laundering. <BR /> <BR />Other priority areas for the task force during its early months of operation have included child sexual exploitation, financial crime, and illicit drugs. A strategic review of its priority areas, along with additional learning, will form the basis for operational planning.”
“For now, I have attached a copy of the 2016-17 work programme, which was agreed at our meeting on 28 September, to the printed version of this statement. It will also be published on the relevant departmental websites following this statement. <BR /> <BR />I also wish to provide Members with an update on the joint agency task force. The fight against organised crime in Northern Ireland is continuing, and, as I reported in September, the joint agency task force, instituted under the Fresh Start Agreement, has advanced our cross-border operational response. The task force has carried out joint operations on rural crime; child sexual exploitation; excise fraud; drug-related criminality; and human trafficking.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Programme for Government will undoubtedly give us the platform for working in a more joined-up way, but I am also keen to exploit other avenues for developing best practice in that area, and the IGA framework provides such an opportunity. Minister Fitzgerald and I have therefore tasked the project advisory group responsible for public protection matters with developing and taking forward an action on mental health care in prisons as part of the joint work programme for 2016-17. I am keen to make progress in that area as well as to ensure that we keep up the momentum in the other work streams. The Tánaiste and I therefore intend to review progress of the work programme at our next meeting in November, and I will endeavour to brief the Assembly on progress following our next IGA meeting.”
“<BR /> <BR />As Members will know, the Minister of Health and I recently visited Hydebank Wood to discuss health issues in prisons. By tackling mental health issues in prisons through a collaborative approach, we are together playing an important role in building a safer community. My Department is committed to working with the Department of Health to assist those with mental health problems. We know that poor mental health is a major factor in people offending. I was therefore pleased to have the support of Minister O'Neill in recently launching a new app, developed by the Probation Board, to help offenders to desist from crime.”
“Five joint project advisory groups provide the mechanism by which the work in each area is taken forward. Encouraged by the progress that has been made in those areas, Minister Fitzgerald and I agreed that it would be mutually beneficial to allow the existing work streams to continue and be augmented to enable them to meet their full potential. <BR /> <BR />We also discussed the prevalence of mental health issues in society, the links to offending and the challenges that they present to our respective criminal justice systems. The Tánaiste shares my views that the justice and health sectors could achieve more by working together not only to improve outcomes for offenders and for our communities but to better support our staff in the management of offenders with mental health issues.”
“The conference also provided a platform for the publication of a biennial cross-border organised crime threat assessment, which provides an assessment across a wide range of cross-border crime types. This is the seventh such cross-border threat assessment to be published. It compares trends and developments across both jurisdictions to highlight similarities and differences in the threat posed by certain areas of criminality. <BR /> <BR />Obviously, cross-border cooperation is not exclusive to policing. Minister Fitzgerald and I discussed other areas where excellent collaborative working is ongoing, such as the management of offenders; support for victims; knowledge exchange between our forensic services; engagement on youth justice developments; and policing of diverse communities.”
“<BR /> <BR />The conference and the IGA are examples of how an effective and important partnership approach can work, bringing together complementary strands of work to enhance cross-border cooperation in relation to criminal justice and policing. The conference also provided an opportunity to launch the 'Cross Border Policing Strategy', a document welcomed by the Tánaiste and me. It aims to build on existing partnerships between our respective police services in achieving the shared objectives of further improving public safety throughout Ireland and disrupting criminal activity. The joint strategy covers a range of policing areas, including operations, rural policing, community relations, intelligence sharing, ICT, service improvement and emergency planning.”
“The combined efforts across the spectrum of criminal justice cooperation, particularly in the area of law enforcement, have served to protect the people of Northern Ireland and Ireland and maintain peace on this island. We know that organised crime groups from both sides of the border work together, and we know that, to successfully tackle organised crime, we must also have effective cross-border cooperation across and between government and law enforcement agencies. It was, therefore, fitting that the fourteenth cross-border organised crime conference provided the backdrop for our second intergovernmental agreement meeting.”
“With your permission, Mr Speaker, I wish to make a statement regarding a bilateral meeting under the auspices of the intergovernmental agreement (IGA) on cooperation on criminal justice matters held at Lough Erne on Wednesday 28 September 2016. This was my second such meeting with Frances Fitzgerald TD, the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality, at which I represented the Executive. As I previously stated to the House, it is my intention to keep the Assembly informed of meetings held under the auspices of the agreement. <BR /> <BR />The meeting provided a timely opportunity, after our previous meeting in July, to build on the excellent cross-border relationship that the Tánaiste and I have already established.”
“When a governor takes an approach like that, it really does suggest and highlight how dangerous drugs are. If we want to ensure the well-being of prisoners, that needs to be raised with them, as well as trying to take drugs out of our prisons.”
“I thank the Member for his question. Anyone who takes illicit substances puts themselves at risk. It is no secret that drugs are a problem in prisons as well as outside them. We will continue to face that problem day on day. Governors will use a number of tools at their disposal to keep prisoners safe, and that can include an amnesty, which will protect life, so that we can, perhaps, seize or take drugs out of circulation. The governor at Maghaberry used the limited amnesty for those reasons, because there was a concern around particular drugs that had harmed prisoners. That amnesty almost had a dual purpose. It was about taking drugs out of circulation, but it was also done to raise awareness among prisoners that the drugs are dangerous.”
“I do not like to speak on behalf of the Health Minister, who is sitting in the Chamber. We have met on a number of occasions recently, and I think it is fair to say that we are both committed to looking at the issue of healthcare in prisons and for prisoners. As you rightly say, we have a duty of care towards prisoners, but we also have a duty of care towards prison officers. I am keen to address this by taking very much a parallel approach, because they will all be better impacted and we will see the benefit of it.”
“We must stop families losing people; it is not good enough and it is something that I am keen to address along with the Health Minister, who has just joined us in the Chamber.”
“To be honest, I cannot really answer that question. We have received the Prisoner Ombudsman's report of late, and there are lessons to be learnt and recommendations to be put in place. I certainly hope that this will not be the case again, and my sympathies extend to everybody involved in these tragic circumstances and their families. <BR /> <BR />Moving forward, we have to have a robust system to ensure that it does not take place again. That starts with looking at the recommendations that the Prisoner Ombudsman has put forward and at the wider issues that I have discussed at length in the Chamber today. We cannot look at these issues in isolation. If prison officers are to give better care to prisoners, they need to be supported as well. That is why I am always keen to package the two together. It is an important area of work.”
“They are on the right medication and receive a certain amount of support. The difficulty is that, when they come out of custody, they go back to square one because the support mechanisms are not in place. We have to take an approach that looks at why people find themselves in custody, looks at them whilst they are in custody and then looks at what happens when they come out of custody, so that we can stop them going round and round that circle.”
“You are fine, Deputy Speaker. <BR /> <BR />I agree. The working relationship that I have with the Health Minister and the conversations we have had in recent months have very much centred on the issue you are talking about: how we can better provide healthcare both within prisons and for people coming into prison. Is prison the right environment for them? I am not sure, but there has to be a balance between community safety and the public perception of what prisons are for and, ultimately, rehabilitation. You are right to point out that this is a conveyor belt. It is almost a vicious circle that begins with an offence and then spirals because people find themselves in custody. <BR /> <BR />One of the sad things we find is that a lot of the offenders who find themselves in custody get onto a path where their lives are quite organised.”
“As I outlined, up to half my prison population presents with mental health issues, so there is an issue around the care that we provide when they are in custody. As I have said in a number of answers today, we can look at how to better care for prisoners when they are in our establishments by looking at the training that prison officers receive and how they can better deal with prisoners with mental health issues. That starts with prison officers and their mental health issues; we cannot look at each issue in isolation. Moving forward with our prisons, I am keen to ensure that we have a system that is fit for purpose. That comes from the perspective of looking after the prisoners in our custody and the prison officers.”
“I am happy to discuss a number of issues. If the Member is keen to join in any of those discussions, I will be keen to hear her views, as it is something that we need to address. I find that the criminal justice system is a vicious circle. It begins with trauma in the home that then manifests itself in addiction or mental health issues, which is why domestic violence is one of my overarching priorities. We see the manifestations of that in the issues that we have been talking about. We need to look at a wider holistic approach. It should not be a case of satisfying criminal justice outcomes; it should be looking at why we are getting to that place in the first instance.”
“I do not think that, when we put people, particularly young people, in custody, it helps their situation. If anything, they are probably at the beginning of a downward spiral, and that is not good enough. <BR /> <BR />We need to look at the best needs of our children and for a safer community and a safer society. When those people are finished in custody, I do not want them going back to the starting block where they began before ending up in custody. We need to look at more upstream approaches. What the Member mentioned is something that the Health Minister and I have been discussing.”
“I completely understand what the Member alludes to, and I am not sure that it is. One of the biggest tragedies of the justice system is that it is almost the failure department when every other part of our public services has already failed. In order to tackle that, we need to look at more upstream approaches so that those people do not find themselves in custody. <BR /> <BR />I find that a lot of young people in custody have a mental health or addiction problem, usually resulting from a trauma earlier in life. Do I think that the best place for them is custody? I am not sure, but the difficulty is this: if they are not in custody, where else can they go? I have committed to working alongside the Health Minister to see if there is a way that we can address this.”