Claire Sugden
East Londonderry · Independent · Northern Ireland
“That is, gosh, almost 35 years ago, yet we are still having the conversation in 2026. If I were to speak to that eight-year-old girl, I would tell her, "When you are 40, Claire, this will not even be a consideration for you". Sadly, however, it still is. It is deeply disappointing that, when we had an opportunity, it was not taken.”
“Indeed, I tabled an amendment to that Bill to achieve the desired outcome, but, sadly, the opportunity was not taken. One of the strengths of the Assembly is that Committees can identify where Executive legislation has fallen short and produce their own practical, targeted solutions.”
“Frankly, we should be listening. Sometimes, we talk about equality in broad terms, but the Bill reminds us that equality is often about practical things. It is about removing unnecessary barriers from everyday life and ensuring that opportunities and choices do not depend on arbitrary differences between schools.”
“That is ridiculous. The point that we should all pay attention to is that of girls feeling less exposed. We should focus on that even if there were no other reasons to pass the legislation. Girls simply want to get on with their school day without having to think about something that most boys take for granted.”
“That meeting was a reminder that issues that can appear small to adults — there have been adults who have asked why the Assembly is legislating on this — can be issues on which we need to legislate. When people do not behave appropriately, we as a legislature have a responsibility to legislate.”
“Around one in seven couples in Northern Ireland experiences fertility problems, yet Northern Ireland continues to offer one of the most limited publicly funded fertility services anywhere in the United Kingdom. Couples face lengthy waits, restricted eligibility criteria and fewer publicly funded IVF opportunities than elsewhere.”
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“However, I recognise that that could have its own limitations, in that it could constrain the interpretation of what harm is. We need to be very careful about what we mean by that and what the intention is. <BR /> <BR />I tried to crystallise this group of amendments. Essentially, there are three elements: the intent; the action, abuse, or, as others described it, behaviour; and, finally, the harm. Essentially, it is the last bit — the harm — that conveys the sense of coercive control that is not yet defined in Northern Ireland law. Of course, I support that. That was my intention when I made it my overarching priority, because I recognise that psychological abuse often leads to more serious forms of abuse.”
“Legislation is one thing — we can get it on to the statute book — but it is the implementation that is really critical. Mr Allister raised valid concerns about the issue of harm and the reasonable person who considers that harm. <BR /> <BR />Mr Frew, rightly, said that the Bill does not mention coercive control. I am keen to hear the Minister's thoughts on why that was not included. Maybe it was not included because of a practical legal consideration. Perhaps it would provide clarity on the concerns that Mr Allister raised. I will play devil's advocate: we intend to put this clause in assuming that the victim does not know what harm is, but we assume that a reasonable person will. What does that mean? What does "harm" mean? Before the debate, I spoke briefly to the Minister about potentially creating a definition of harm in law.”
“It could even perpetuate a cycle of domestic abuse if children see it happening in the family home. We need only look at our criminal justice system to see the damage and trauma that it causes. Domestic abuse is a form of that trauma. I commend the Minister for committing to take that forward. I have no doubt that the House will support that amendment this evening. <BR /> <BR />I do not intend to support Mr Allister's amendment or his opposition to clause 3, but I will talk about them because I recognise and respect his practical experience from his previous career in relation to the application of criminal law. My comments are not meant to be an obstacle to the actions that the House will take; they are about ensuring that we are right in what we are doing.”
“I noted the Minister's comments at the weekend. I say this to her: keep going. It is certainly not my job to finish the Bill; we depend on her to do that. As Mr Frew said, the Bill is three years too late. <BR /> <BR />I will speak particularly about amendment No 1 and the opposition to clause 3. I am happy to support all the other amendments. I was going to speak briefly on amendment No 9, but Miss Woods covered all the detail that I intended to cover, so I do not need to go over that again. In relation to amendment No 9, however, I thank the Minister for specifically including in the Bill the aggravating offence in relation to children. We all know — others have spoken about it — that domestic abuse is a form of trauma that can perpetuate a cycle.”
“I thank the Member for his contribution. I am somewhat sympathetic to the points he makes, and I will come to that in my own contribution. <BR /> <BR />In this case, would we have to define what "harm" is given that coercive control as a criminal offence is a relatively new concept? Who decides what is "harm" if we were to put forward what his amendment suggests? <BR /> <BR />Because we are creating a criminal offence, it will have a practical outworking. When this goes through the criminal justice process, how do you see it, as it is drafted, Mr Allister, given your experience, being successful in seeking a conviction in court?”
“I will. I am thinking, Minister, of one of the amendments tabled by Mr Jim Allister in respect of harm versus action, and harm tends to be something that is felt by the victim but there is not necessarily any definition within law. Might it be useful for this law, and, indeed, others, to work towards creating a definition for "harm", or maybe an index?”
“My apologies. Will the Minister give her assessment of the definition of "harm" in law?”
“I wish to pick up on a point that Mr Stewart made about accountant verification. That in itself has its own cost, and constituents tell me that they have to pay their accountants to sign off forms. I ask the Minister to consider that, particularly for the scheme that she is bringing forward on Wednesday. Also, will the Minister confirm that businesses, further to the new restrictions from Friday past, will get the various business support schemes, whether they are partially closing or fully closing for the two weeks ahead?”
“Minister, are there any know contraindications of those who have received the seasonal flu vaccine receiving the COVID-19 vaccine? Will patients who have tested positive for COVID-19 make use of the anticipated COVID vaccine? I ask those questions because the answers will help with the management of an expected programme in the winter months.”
“The deputy First Minister has consistently criticised the use of the Northern Ireland Executive cross-community voting mechanism, and I agree with that criticism. However, that mechanism was legitimately applied in that the current policy and legislation allowed it to happen, and all five Executive parties signed up to it on that basis knowing that it could be applied at some point. Will the deputy First Minister commit to abolishing that mechanism either in law or policy, and, if she does not abolish it, is that an admission that, at some point when politics suit, it will be used again?”
“We are micro-region, so we lend ourselves to a lot of small businesses in Northern Ireland, and that feeds into everything else, such as tourism. <BR /> <BR />I support the Bill and wish it success through its various stages. I look forward to it coming to the House a bit sooner than 2022. We hope to have some sort of recovery next year. I am not sure that it is possible, Minister, but, if you can expedite the Bill, it would be most welcome.”
“Ms Woods suggested having organisations like ASCERT go into pubs and clubs to advise people on addiction issues and being more responsible. What are our Government doing by way of a public awareness campaign to ensure that we act responsibly? Now, every advert for a spirit or a pub has a little message at the bottom saying, "Drink responsibly". However, if we enact legislation that facilitates drinking, maybe there is something that we can do by way of a public awareness campaign to ensure that, if we are going to drink, we do it responsibly. It is about education. <BR /> <BR />This is welcome legislation, but there are areas that need to be interrogated further. We need to give more support to the microbreweries.”
“We have to look genuinely at the root causes of that before blaming alcohol. However, I understand Mr Allister's point that we, as a legislature for the people of Northern Ireland, must understand our responsibilities. Are we facilitating that?”
“I add to that the likes of Uber Eats and all the new technologies that people can use. Will people under 18 be able to open the door and be given alcohol without any checks and balances? All those things are really important in the world that we now live in. <BR /> <BR />Members talked about the legislation being balanced, and the Minister talked about it being a balance in the world that we now live in. I agree. I think that addiction is a symptom of other issues and that people have mental health issues and addictions because of traumas that they have suffered previously in their life.”
“We are seeing a lot of businesses, particularly those in the hospitality industry that have had to close, selling a dine-at-home box. I had a fantastic experience at the weekend where a local restaurant gave me a three-course meal that I had to finish cooking at home. Some restaurants are also offering opportunities to provide wine with that. Is that legal? Should they be doing that? Where are the safeguards with that? If food and alcohol are being brought to our homes, how do we safeguard against possible abuses? It is not just about bringing alcohol into our homes. There is the prevalence of violence and the issues around alcohol addiction and mental health. That happens in our homes. Therefore, if we are facilitating that, we need to look at what we do to ensure that it does not give rise to unintended consequences.”
“<BR /> <BR />I want to delve a little deeper, as Ms Woods did, into the issue of online sales. I am not sure what the Bill provides for in respect of that. Perhaps I have overlooked it. We all know now that we can go onto apps on our phones and purchase six at 25% off from a supermarket and it gets delivered to our home. In my experience, there are no safeguards around that. There is no checking to see whether I am under 18, as, clearly, I look under 18. There is nothing to ask. On the other hand, I have purchased alcohol from Amazon, and I had a guy asking me for my date of birth. Is that enough? Should there be more? I think that we need to look at that. <BR /> <BR />COVID-19 has given rise to issues in relation to the Licensing Bill.”
“<BR /> <BR />Ms Woods rightly said that any ministerial decision should be cross-community. Where is our outcomes-based accountability? I am looking forward to hearing that the Minister has had conversations with the Minister of Justice on this; I am looking forward to hearing that she has had conversations with the Minister for the Economy, because we have heard that this legislation impacts on other Departments. I appreciate that any piece of legislation that makes it to the Floor of the House has to have Executive approval, but those Ministers will have an input to any of this moving forward, so it would be nice, for the responsibility that we have as a legislature, to ensure that we are thinking about this in the round and about all the impacts that it will have.”
“<BR /> <BR />For people who are drinking beyond 2.00 and 3.00 am, it is entirely their choice, and I am happy to support the choices that people make and the responsibilities that they need to take upon themselves. However, if it leads to harming others, which, in my experience, sadly, it did, we need to be very careful in how we proceed with extending opening hours. Are we hearing from businesses that that is when additional money is coming in because people are drinking more because they are not in control? That gives rise to other concerns for me. As I said, I am not particularly against it. However, I think that we need to proceed with caution, and I am keen to hear the rationale for it and what safeguards the Minister would be prepared to put in place.”
“Sadly, I have experience of alcohol-fuelled violence, where someone very close to me was taken due to alcoholism after closing time. It still has an impact on me, so, if we are going to do this, I am concerned about what we are doing to safeguard against potential violence. What are we doing to support the police to mitigate it? The police are the after-hours service. When every other public service goes home at 5.00 pm on a Friday, it is the police that pick up the bill, and their resources are already stretched. If we are going to do this, we need to proceed with caution and be cognisant of the issues that could arise from it.”
“I respect your point, because I understand your deep Christian faith, but it is about achieving consistency with other areas. The law now needs to be brought into line. I therefore do not accept the Member for North Antrim's point. <BR /> <BR />Where I do agree with him is on the extension of opening hours from 1.00 am to 2.00 am and then from 2.00 am to 3.00 am. I am not necessarily against it, but I am keen to understand the rationale for that additional hour because that additional hour brings additional consumption, and that additional consumption potentially gives rise to issues of violence and of spilling out onto the street. <BR /> <BR />Mr Catney made the valid point that there are responsible publicans who ensure that that does not happen on their premises, but they do not have jurisdiction beyond the door of that premises.”
“I cannot find a reason to agree. If that is the argument that potentially obstructs this provision, we will have to look at everything else that has been disrespected up to this point. We are at a point now at which it is about consistency, not just in Northern Ireland but across the UK. We need to look at the wider economic reality and the effect that not opening on those hours has. <BR /> <BR />I come back to the point about supporting the hospitality sector. People come to Northern Ireland during their Easter holidays and want to enjoy the scenery and the food and drink, as we have talked about. They would like an opportunity to be able to do that in our businesses. We should seize that opportunity and support the local economy to bring that business to Northern Ireland.”
“Perhaps Mr Allister will intervene to help me understand why it is disrespectful to have an alcohol beverage in a public house but not disrespectful to have one at home. Where is the disrespect in that regard? To me, it is the same difference. People in those pubs would certainly be respecting the individuals who choose not to do that.”
“It feels as though we are bringing Northern Ireland to where the rest of the world was 20 or 30 years ago. The legislation is really important for progressing where we are at. <BR /> <BR />I support extended Easter opening. I understand why people, particularly those with a faith-based perspective, may be concerned or feel that extending Easter opening will disrespect what they are doing. I must admit that I do not accept the arguments put forward by Mr Allister. If it is about disrespect, we should close supermarkets and other places on a Sunday. This is about bringing opening hours into line with what already exists. People can still respect the holiday and the faith-based element of it.”
“They advocated that we could have something like what they suggested, but it is not in the Bill. I would be interested to hear the rationale from the Minister for why it was left out. There certainly seems to be an awful lot of support around the House for the inclusion of that provision. I will quite happily, perhaps with Mr O'Toole and other Members, table an amendment to ensure that it finds its way in to the Bill, because I think that it has broad support. <BR /> <BR />Another point that I will make is about facilitating licensing for major events. We saw the challenges that that created with the Open, and we anticipate more big events like that coming to Northern Ireland. It builds on the work of former Member Judith Cochrane around licensing in stadia, and that is really important.”
“It is not necessarily about making profit, because it is not doing that. Rather, it is about coming together to celebrate what is local produce and to celebrate the talents of local people. <BR /> <BR />Interestingly, microbreweries, in and of themselves, are not binge-drinking operations. Their very nature means that they do not benefit from economies of scale. Their products therefore tend to be slightly more expensive. People do not buy them to chug them. They buy them to enjoy them. That is where the legislation misses the point. I struggle to understand this: why were microbreweries' suggestions left out of the legislation? This is a direct question to the Minister. A lot of the significant responses that the consultation received last year came from microbreweries and local producers.”
“Every year, although sadly not this year, we have the Portrush Beer and Food Festival. I do not know whether anyone here has gone to it. It attracts people from all sides of the community and from different backgrounds. It is a real celebration of local produce and people coming together as a community. That is the type of positive that we need to focus on when we look at the new licensing laws and the opportunities around them. <BR /> <BR />Lacada is a microbrewery in my constituency. I am sure that Members have tried its beer. I am not a beer person, although one is often pushed into my hand. It is a really great product, but it is not just about what it is producing but about the organisation that it has created. It is a community-owned cooperative that encourages local people to buy into it.”
“Causeway Coast Foodie Tours, for example, deliberately takes people around all the various food production sites and restaurants. We could add another element to this in the microbreweries — taking people to those to show them what local people are producing and what is the best of Northern Ireland. I really think there is an opportunity here for tourism. <BR /> <BR />We on the north coast really do celebrate microbreweries. Their ask is to be able to sell their own product from their own premises.”
“Alongside that production, it is able to sell its product in a beer hall, and it was selling the beer and using the byproduct. Earlier, Stewart Dickson talked about bread as a byproduct of beer, and the Harpoon Brewery was using the byproduct and marketing it, not just for its own business but for local tourism, and it did bring people to the area. Mike Nesbitt talked about being in an industrial park, and that is exactly where this was, yet thousands of people descended on it every Saturday to enjoy the beer and the community of being within that space. <BR /> <BR />That is the opportunity that exists here in Northern Ireland. There is a booming food and drink industry coming across in Northern Ireland that really celebrates Northern Ireland's food and produce.”
“As a general point, maybe more consultation processes need to take a wider approach so that we can encapsulate what the public think and what is right for the people outside this Building, rather than it being fed by public opinion. <BR /> <BR />I do generally support the principles of the Bill. However, there are some elements that I have concerns about, and I will come to that later. Specifically on tourism, the Bill not only supports the hospitality industry that already exists in the form of hotels, restaurants and pubs, but creates its own tourism product in itself. I went to Boston on a business trip, and there is a great brewery there called the Harpoon Brewery. It has created a tourism product from the factory and its ability to brew on-site.”
“I am often critical of this Administration, but I have to say that this is probably one of the most positive pieces of legislation to come to the House in a number of years. Despite the three years of nothingness, the Bill is indicative of how far we have come and progressed on this issue, and it did happen with a five-party Executive. That is the only compliment that the Executive are going to hear from me for the rest of the mandate. <BR /> <BR />I want to make a note about the consultation. The consultation was made public in, I believe, October last year. No proposals were put to the public, but a general opinion was sought, and that has led to a more comprehensive review of what we have now. It has built on the work of Ms Ní Chuilín's predecessor, Paul Givan, who did, ironically, start this piece of legislation back in 2016.”
“I thank the Minister for her statement. It is a comprehensive piece of work that, no doubt, started with Minister Hargey, and I hope that she continues to recover from her illness. <BR /> <BR />Minister, I appreciate that, because of population, we will tend to focus on cities like Belfast and Derry. However, I want to point to my constituency of East Londonderry, which is a predominantly rural area. I would like to hear more about your plans for how we can provide housing in rural areas. I would also like to know how we will provide specific housing, because sometimes it is not possible to build houses for everyone, be they larger families, people with specific needs or people who want to live in the country away from bigger developments because of mental health issues. How will you address that in your plans moving forward?”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. There is a primary school in my constituency that does not have standardised tests. They believe that enough data exists to ensure a form of academic selection without having the transfer test, to the extent that his permanent secretary, before the Minister's appointment, visited the school and commissioned a report on it. Is that something that the Minister wishes to comment on?”
“— extraordinary year, would that stand? Does he have the power to do something about this?”
“My last point is on your opportunities, Minister, to be able to do anything. I have spoken with teachers, and they have told me that, despite the autonomy that they have through the boards of governors, they still have to work through Department of Education directives. If you, as Minister, were to issue a ministerial directive, again, caveated by the fact that this is an —”
“Minister, if you put a process in place in response to a further wave, teachers and parents will have to prepare for that change of policy, as happened with AS and A levels. The ask from this debate is that we have some sort of contingency arrangement so that people can prepare and expect what is coming, rather than creating the stress that seems to have existed with the previous qualifications process.”
“The initial decision to postpone it was odd, and I appreciate that it was in response to a court hearing or a judicial review. However, what did that delay actually do? We delayed it until after the Christmas period, when children should really be with their families and not be stressed about a test that will happen immediately after the Christmas break. While the delay was somewhat welcome, in some respects it made the issue worse. <BR /> <BR />The other issue is that the transfer process, whether it involves academic selection or children just moving to a post-primary school, is ongoing. It needs to happen. There are time frames that the Department of Education and the Education Authority are working towards, and they need to have decisions now.”
“I cannot say that that applies to all children across Northern Ireland, but teachers are the people who know best. I do not know anything about this — I am not a parent or a teacher — but I listen to my constituents, and they tell me that the first period of lockdown has had an impact on those children. Where are we now? We are in the midst of a second wave and potentially anticipating a third wave in January, so there will be impact. That impact is not only on their educational development but on their mental health and on their ability to socialise with other children, which seems to be one of the biggest impacts of stopping kids going to school. <BR /> <BR />I also want to talk about timing. We are now in November, and it is anticipated that the test will take place in January.”
“<BR /> <BR />This is an extraordinary year, and I want to address the comments about potentially setting a precedent for any future debate on academic selection. It does not have to. Any decision that the Minister makes can be made with the caveat that this was an extraordinary year. It does not have to set an example. As I said, there is not enough time left in this mandate and there is certainly no political will there, but a significant number of parents, teachers and children are saying that what is happening now causes them great anxiety. <BR /> <BR />I was not in the Chamber to hear earlier contributions, but I was really shocked to hear from a schoolteacher recently that the lockdown period from Easter onwards has had an impact on some children's educational development.”
“I will be generous to Mr Allister, who said that the COVID situation tends to highlight the cracks that already exist in the system, not just with this issue but across government policy. This issue highlights the fact that, for over 10 years, the transfer process in Northern Ireland has been a mess. We need to look at it, and we need to be sensible and mature about doing what is best for our children. In an ideal world and in an ideal education system, every school would be the best school in Northern Ireland and every school would provide the best facilities and the best education. Parents choose academic selection because they see that some schools are better than others, and that in itself is an issue. We need to look at that in any debate on transfer, because transfer is a symptom of the problems that exist in education.”
“I thank the Committee for Education, particularly the Chair, for commissioning the survey. There were over 8,500 responses from various important stakeholders, including teachers, parents and schoolchildren. Two thirds of people responded that they were concerned about the transfer process this year. That in itself should convince the Minister to reassure parents about what happens next, because the survey indicates that they are not reassured. He needs to do more in that respect, if nothing else. <BR /> <BR />I did not prepare for a debate on academic selection. I am cognisant of the fact that, given the time left in the mandate, we will not change the way in which the process works. There is no political will. The Minister says that he supports academic selection.”
“Just so that I get it right, has the Minister confirmed that those employees who were employed after the end of the cut-off date for the original furlough scheme — I think that it was the end of March — can now, up until the end of October, apply for the new furlough scheme? To labour Mr Dickson's point about those who have been made redundant, I understand that the British Government reversed that process and, if the paperwork had been submitted, they brought forward the date so that they were included. Is that something that the Minister is asking for on behalf of the people of Northern Ireland who have been made redundant in the anticipation that the furlough scheme would have come to an end in October?”
“The Minister has confirmed today that she understood the risk at the time of payments, and she has also confirmed that her Executive colleagues, who made the decision along with the Minister, understood the risk. Therefore, what measures did the Minister put in place while knowing of that risk? Did she, for example, issue remittance advice with all the automatic payments, which included a disclaimer to claw back that money should it be paid in error?”
“Will the Minister give her assessment of inappropriate referrals from various statutory agencies to Women's Aid shelters? Inappropriate in that there has not been an incident, or not a recent one anyway, and it seems to be getting referrals because it has spaces. For example, the Housing Executive and police seem to be referring to Women's Aid to house people.”
“My supplementary question has been asked. Thank you.”
“I appreciate the Minister's attention to the matter, and I see that she is trying to bring things forward as quickly as possible. I am also glad that she is thinking outside of a nine to five, Monday to Friday week. We need to do that across all Civil Service and public-sector services. I want to go back to the question on providing financial support for driving instructors. All MLAs, including my constituency colleague Cara Hunter, have been inundated on the matter. Does the Minister have any role in supporting the Minister for the Economy in bringing forward such a scheme so that we can ensure that driving instructors will get financial support, hopefully by the weekend?”
“Thank you, Minister. Information appeared on the nidirect and Department of Health websites that bowling alleys had to close as well as the other listed businesses. However, the statutory rules that were published on Friday night and the regulations published on Sunday night make no mention of that. Will the Minister put on record whether bowling alleys have to close as part of the new restrictions so that I can advise my constituents?”
“I wrote to the Minister recently about clinical placements for optometrists in independent prescribing, and I understand that there is an issue with securing such placements across all the professions. Is he able to give me an update on that, and is there a way to take that forward? I believe that it could have an impact on waiting lists in a positive way.”
“I appreciate that the schemes were developed quickly and that the aim was to get money out as quickly as possible. The frustration is that there are still so many businesses that have been unable to avail themselves of any moneys, while some have availed themselves of more than they were entitled to. If money does come back into the Department of Finance's coffers, I encourage the Minister to distribute it as quickly as possible, not just to businesses that have already received money but to those that have not received anything.”
“Given the new restrictions and the challenges that are presenting themselves, is the Minister considering whether to extend the 12-month rate relief scheme to any other sectors?”
“<BR /> <BR />When you are developing a financial package for the businesses that will have to close through government instruction, will you be mindful of those that will be directly impacted by closures in hotels, for example — so, musicians and other businesses that work with hotels, whose business will, literally, go to zero from Friday, or even Monday? How are we going to support them? Sadly, some of those businesses have not been supported up until now, and this will only compound the issue, not least for them but for the wider economy.”