Claire Sugden
East Londonderry · Independent · Northern Ireland
“That is, gosh, almost 35 years ago, yet we are still having the conversation in 2026. If I were to speak to that eight-year-old girl, I would tell her, "When you are 40, Claire, this will not even be a consideration for you". Sadly, however, it still is. It is deeply disappointing that, when we had an opportunity, it was not taken.”
“Indeed, I tabled an amendment to that Bill to achieve the desired outcome, but, sadly, the opportunity was not taken. One of the strengths of the Assembly is that Committees can identify where Executive legislation has fallen short and produce their own practical, targeted solutions.”
“Frankly, we should be listening. Sometimes, we talk about equality in broad terms, but the Bill reminds us that equality is often about practical things. It is about removing unnecessary barriers from everyday life and ensuring that opportunities and choices do not depend on arbitrary differences between schools.”
“That is ridiculous. The point that we should all pay attention to is that of girls feeling less exposed. We should focus on that even if there were no other reasons to pass the legislation. Girls simply want to get on with their school day without having to think about something that most boys take for granted.”
“That meeting was a reminder that issues that can appear small to adults — there have been adults who have asked why the Assembly is legislating on this — can be issues on which we need to legislate. When people do not behave appropriately, we as a legislature have a responsibility to legislate.”
“Around one in seven couples in Northern Ireland experiences fertility problems, yet Northern Ireland continues to offer one of the most limited publicly funded fertility services anywhere in the United Kingdom. Couples face lengthy waits, restricted eligibility criteria and fewer publicly funded IVF opportunities than elsewhere.”
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“That will not always be the easiest way, but it is something that we have to commit to in the best interests of everyone whom we represent right across Northern Ireland.”
“I thank the Member for his question. No, I do not think that we are half-hearted in fighting terrorism. Northern Ireland has come an awful long way given its troubled past. There are certain elements of our troubled past that we need to address head-on; otherwise, we will never address them. It will be a huge failure on the part of the Executive and every Member of the House if we do not address those issues. There needs to be some sort of truth element in the post-conflict society that we now find ourselves in. I do not underestimate that challenge, but we need to be brave because we represent the people of Northern Ireland. I appreciate that a lot of people throughout Northern Ireland are hurting, but it is our job to see whether we can find the best way to move forward.”
“I thank the Member for his question. Any elected representative is entitled to visit prisoners in custody. However, we need to be mindful of the public message and victims. I remind all Members of the House, in the messages that they send out, to be very mindful of the other people involved.”
“I am very mindful of the vulnerability that prison officers can feel in the challenging and often dangerous environment in prisons across Northern Ireland, not only Maghaberry. I have met representatives of prison officers through the Prison Officers' Association. The Northern Ireland Civil Service handbook prevents me from directly meeting prison officers. If elected representatives have an understanding of the issues that prison officers face, I would be more than happy to meet them so that I can better understand those issues and find a way of addressing them.”
“We will take it away and learn from it to see how we can prevent anything like that happening in future.”
“As I said to Mr Allister in a previous answer, I have received a detailed account of the incident at Quoile House in Maghaberry at the weekend. It is right to say that a technical fault, which lasted for 50 minutes, meant that prisoners were not contained in their cells. Despite what was reported in the media, I understand that prisoners did not run riot throughout the prison; it was certainly contained. As I said to Mr Allister earlier, it was a rolling mechanical fault, which meant that only 13 prisoners had the opportunity to be out of their cells at any one time. I understand that six was the highest number of prisoners out of their cells at any one time. Whilst the fault is certainly regrettable, these things happen. I appreciate that there is nervousness about what could have happened.”
“I thank the Member for her question. I do not have that information to hand, but I am happy to write to her and outline where we are with the implementation of the recommendations. I will follow that up in due course.”
“I am more than happy to meet Mrs Little Pengelly about the issue. I acknowledge the opportunity she has taken in the House to raise the matter. The case that she outlined is disappointing. With the current legal framework, it will be up to the independent judiciary to deal with individual circumstances. The purpose of the House is to raise debate on issues like this and to read the public feeling on this issue. As Mr Nesbitt said, there needs to be zero tolerance for people who deliberately commit animal cruelty offences. If we need to look at the legal framework, which I am responsible for, I am happy to do that.”
“I thank the Member for his comments. I agree entirely that we should have zero tolerance. The Member is right to suggest that the current legal framework, particularly the new one that has been in place from 1 August 2016, is certainly robust enough. However, how that is applied in the courts is a matter for the independent judiciary. I am pleased to hear that the Member met the Director of Public Prosecutions, who has given a commitment to ensure that, if sentences are unduly lenient, there will be an opportunity for redress.”
“I understand that the Judicial Studies Board for Northern Ireland, which is the body responsible for judicial training, is to receive a briefing from DAERA and councils on animal welfare issues. <BR /> <BR />In 2015, 78 cases of animal cruelty were disposed of at the courts in Northern Ireland, 48 of which resulted in a conviction. In 2016, 44 prosecutions have been disposed of at court, 32 of which resulted in a conviction. As yet, there have been no prosecutions under the new provisions.”
“<BR /> <BR />In addition to increasing the maximum penalties available, my Department provided additional powers to the Director of Public Prosecutions to allow him to refer animal cruelty cases to the Court of Appeal, if he considers that the sentence handed down in certain Crown Court cases is unduly lenient. Those changes provided Northern Ireland with amongst the toughest maximum penalties for animal cruelty of any jurisdiction on these islands. <BR /> <BR />Decisions on the appropriate sentence are entirely a matter for the independent judiciary. In making these decisions, judges are guided by guideline judgements from the Court of Appeal and sentencing guidance.”
“The limited nature of my Department's role in animal welfare issues is to ensure that a suitable legal framework exists that provides courts with appropriate powers to deal with all cases of animal cruelty. That includes ensuring that the maximum penalties are available to the courts where appropriate. <BR /> <BR />Following the joint review of the implementation of the Welfare of Animals Act 2011, undertaken by the former Department of Agriculture and Rural Development and my Department, legislation was brought forward in the Justice Act 2016, which increased maximum penalties for animal welfare crime. The relevant provisions commenced on 1 August 2016.”
“Mr Deputy Speaker, with your permission, I will take questions 5 and 9 together. <BR /> <BR />Animal cruelty really is a disgusting crime. I fully recognise the Members' concern, and I appreciate that the Members who asked the questions have taken the opportunity to raise the debate inside and outside the House. Sentencing in individual cases is a matter for the independent judiciary, which must take account of the relevant facts and circumstances of any case.”
“I thank the Member for his question. It has nothing to do with the question asked by Mr Humphrey. I am certainly looking at my priorities for the next five years, and there are a number of areas I have identified, including domestic violence, mental health, children and young people, women, and crimes against older people in particular. I will very much weave them into the responsibilities my Department has as a whole, and I think the next five years will be really exciting. The last mandate, in my opinion, was very much about transition, and I think that right now we are going to transform. This will be the mandate of delivery, and I am keen to see it through.”
“Yes, indeed. Restorative justice is an almost controversial practice, and at the outset it received an awful lot of criticism. But I think that here and across the world restorative justice has proved to be an important element of our criminal justice system by connecting with communities and trying to get to the heart of the problems behind why people commit offences and crimes. <BR /> <BR />Where working with the PSNI is concerned, I understand there are good working relationships with the community-based restorative justice groups, but if we need to look at those to strengthen them, I would be very keen to hear the Member's comments on another occasion about how he feels we can best do so.”
“<BR /> <BR />That positive work was recognised by the Fresh Start panel report 'Tackling Paramilitary Activity, Criminality and Organised Crime'. It consequently made a number of recommendations that involve the accredited community-based restorative justice groups in their delivery. All the recommendations have been accepted in the Executive action plan, and my officials will be working with the groups to implement them. In addition, representatives from both accredited groups are helping to inform the drafting of an overarching adult restorative justice strategy that my Department is leading on and that will be published for consultation in 2017.”
“There is a significant body of evidence from Northern Ireland and worldwide that demonstrates the benefits of restorative practices within a criminal justice context, and community-based restorative justice plays an important role in this. Since the government protocol was agreed in 2007, the two accredited community-based restorative justice schemes in Northern Ireland have made positive contributions to keeping their communities safe, repairing relationships and helping to reduce the harm caused by antisocial behaviour and offending. They are also key partners for statutory justice organisations, including the Probation Service and the police. Without their expertise and community presence, many of our criminal justice disposals would lack that restorative element and would be poorer for it.”
“Yes, of course. I believe that all people, whether prisoners, prison officers, prisoners' families or people that are engaging in the prison environment are treated with dignity and respect. From my perspective, the judgement about them coming into the prison environment was made in the courts. Certainly, the role of prison is to better rehabilitate and provide care for prisoners. So yes, I agree with the comments the Member made, and I think it is this good and fundamental basis we need when we are thinking about how we move forward on better care for prisoners and prison officers.”
“I want to ensure that I get this right, and I cannot do that by plucking ideas out of my own mind; I have to listen to the people of Northern Ireland.”
“At this stage in my ministerial role, I am very much about listening. I come to the House not as someone bringing my own baggage or ideas that I have plucked out of thin air, but as someone very keen to listen to stakeholders on the ground. They can best advise and put forward ideas that best represent them. Certainly, I am very keen to listen to the views of the Prison Service, through the representation of the Prison Officers' Association and anyone else who wants to put forward their views. Elected representatives also have a role; if there are concerns around the welfare of prison officers and, indeed, prisoners, I would be really keen to hear that. Indeed, a lot of Members have been forthcoming in doing so. Right now, it is very much a listening exercise.”
“Since the report was published quite recently, at this stage my Department, alongside officials from the Department of Health, will take time to consider the recommendations. As I have said in answers to previous questions, we accept the report and that lessons need to be learned from this very tragic case. We will look carefully at those recommendations to see how we can best implement them. It is something that we need to take proper time and consideration over, because the outcome was very, very tragic.”
“We are talking about a potential modernisation programme which not only looks at the issues around mental health but also looks at their family life, opportunities around shift working and how they can best manage that so that they can have that proper work-life balance, which is also very important when we are looking at mental health issues. It is something that I am quite keen to address. I visited Hydebank Wood with the Health Minister last week. That demonstrates our commitment to work together on these issues, as it is one of her priorities as well. Looking forward positively, we are keen to tackle it. I welcome any input from Members on how they feel that we can best do that. After all, we are all in this together.”
“Yes, there is now an opportunity to look at this in a much more holistic way, and I have instructed my officials to look at how we can better support prison officers. As I said in response to question 1, and to Mrs Cameron's question, we will encourage better rehabilitation and care of prisoners if we start with prison officers themselves. They are much better equipped to do the job that they do but, equally, they need to be considered in terms of the support around them. In answer to your question, I have already instructed my officials to look at this and see how we can do it better.”
“I thank the Member for his question. Indeed, I welcome him to the House. I think this is the first opportunity that we have had to engage on the Floor.”
“<BR /> <BR />In this new environment, moving forward, I am really keen, as I have reiterated time and again to this House, that prison officers should be supported, and we do need to be mindful of how they are dealing with the very challenging circumstances that they are faced with day in, day out in their job.”
“I thank the Member for her question and, indeed, her continuing interest in this area. I am not sure that the provisions that we have in place are enough to support prison officers in relation to their mental health and the daily pressures that they face. <BR /> <BR />One of the biggest legacies of our Troubles — throughout Northern Ireland as well as within prisons — is mental ill health. The Troubles, as I said at the outset, brought a lot of trauma to many people's lives, and that has now resulted, I think, in mental health issues, particularly amongst an older population who went through it themselves and saw that trauma at first hand. Now, as they are getting older, perhaps even retiring, these experiences are manifesting as mental health problems.”
“These services are provided to staff to supplement the support and treatment available through the National Health Service. <BR /> <BR />I am keen look at this issue and focus on the support available to prison officers. For the Prison Service to fulfil its aims in relation to the management and rehabilitation of offenders, I am clear that we must provide appropriate care and support for the staff carrying out this challenging work. My officials continue to seek to improve the working environment and support services that are available to staff within available resourcing constraints.”
“I welcome the continuing interest in this matter, which is an area that I am already focused on. As was mentioned at my last Question Time, we are in a post-conflict society, and a lot of people, including prison officers, have been directly or indirectly affected by the trauma of the Troubles. This, in many cases, has impacted on their mental health, as I spoke of earlier. As I also mentioned, a quarter of our prisoners have mental health issues, so I am very conscious of the mental health issues affecting prison officers and prisoners. <BR /> <BR />There are a number of support mechanisms available to prisoner officers. These include a dedicated staff welfare service, access to the occupational health service and a confidential counselling service provided by Carecall.”
“I thank the Member for her question. Yes, I will continue to pursue this with the Home Secretary. Indeed, before Question Time, I wrote to the Home Secretary, again asking her to reconsider whether she would extend the terms of reference to Northern Ireland, where it is cross-jurisdictional. So, yes, it is something that I am keen to keep pursuing.”
“I am a member of the Northern Ireland Executive, and I am keen to work so that we can start moving things.”
“I thank the Member for his supplementary. As Minister of Justice for Northern Ireland, I am a member of the Northern Ireland Executive. Indeed, I am frustrated that we have not yet secured funding for the legacy inquest project that the Lord Chief Justice has proposed, but it is something that I am working on, as Justice Minister, along with my Executive colleagues, to see whether we can secure funding for legacy inquests. <BR /> <BR />As I have told the House before, time is not on our side when it comes to legacy inquests. The people who we need to be working towards in securing this project that the Lord Chief Justice proposed are the victims of those families, and time is not on their side. So, yes, I can assure the Member that I am keen to work with my Executive colleagues on that, but I cannot do this alone.”
“I thank the Member for his supplementary. As I am sure he will appreciate, these matters are between the Attorney General and the chairman of the inquiry. However, it is a matter of record that, at the request of the inquiry chairman, the Attorney General has given an undertaking that individuals providing certain evidence to the undercover policing inquiry could do so without fear of prosecution.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Metropolitan Police Service wrote to my officials on 15 June indicating that they were in the process of reviewing all material relating to the subject of the inquiry in order to progress current investigations and provide full and transparent disclosure.”
“On 15 June 2016, I wrote to the former Home Secretary asking that the undercover policing inquiry be empowered to look at evidence relating to the undercover activities of English and Welsh officers in any jurisdiction where it is considering a case in England and Wales and the operative has subsequently crossed a jurisdictional boundary. On 22 July, I received a response that indicated that she had considered the proposal but had concluded that it was not possible to accommodate it in the inquiry's existing terms of reference. The letter also noted that the Home Secretary did not intend to amend the terms of reference as this would require further consultation and delay the progress of the inquiry. I have since made further representations to the new Home Secretary.”
“I thank the Member for his question. Indeed, how he presents the situation at the weekend, as read in the local press, is certainly not the detailed report that I received. Yes: we can acknowledge that there was a mechanical fault that led to the opportunity for prisoners to come out of their cells, but it was no more than 13 prisoners in any one instance. My understanding is that only six were ever out in the prison at that stage and that it was very much under control. What has been suggested in the press is not what has been detailed to me.”
“It represents an absence rate of about 8·5%, which is still significantly high. Indeed, the measures I have already outlined in the modernisation programme, looking at how we can better support prison officers in the job that they do day to day, will hopefully try to address that sickness absence rate. <BR /> <BR />To reiterate: working in a prison environment is unique. It is like no other environment. A lot of the people whom prison officers care for can be quite challenging and that puts a lot of strain and stress onto prison officers. To address sickness absence, we have to look at how we can better support prison officers so that they feel better equipped to do their jobs.”
“The recent Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency (NISRA) report identified significant levels of sickness absence throughout the Northern Ireland Civil Service, particularly in the Prison Service, which probably has the worst.”
“I alluded to the care of the prisoners, and we need to be mindful of all those aspects. That starts with training prison officers and better supporting them to carry out their duties to the standard that we expect.”
“I thank the Member for his supplementary question. As I have said in the past, the Prison Service is an exceptional environment. It really is like no other job, and prisons are often in quite isolated areas. We need to be mindful of all those things. The Member is right to suggest that a high level of our sickness absence is related to anxiety, stress, depression and other psychiatric illnesses. Moving forward, I am keen to look at that so that I can better support prison officers. I have reiterated time and time again that, in my tenure as Justice Minister, I will look at how to better support prison officers, with the aim of reducing sickness absence. The wider impact is that other officers are under pressure if there are not enough staff to carry out the duties.”
“I thank the Member for her supplementary question. We accept the Prisoner Ombudsman's report on the case of Sean Lynch. I understand that the Northern Ireland Prison Service has given a commitment, alongside the South Eastern Health and Social Care Trust, to look at putting those recommendations forward. I alluded at my last Question Time to how we dealt with prisoners with severe mental health issues. I have spoken to the management of the Northern Ireland Prison Service about how to better support prison officers when prisoners present with exceptional problems, as Mr Lynch did.”
“I thank the Member for his response. The reason it is confidential is that my Department is looking into correspondence issues relating to injury on duty. I am not at liberty to give any more information at this stage.”
“During the financial year 2015-16, 60 members of prison operational staff retired on medical grounds. The breakdown is as follows: one occupational support grade; four custody prison officers; 40 prison officers, including specialists; three prisoner custody officers; and 12 senior officers.”
“Sure. As I said at the time when the criticism came, to expect any more or to expect a fully costed and detailed plan at that stage in the limited period that we had would have been irresponsible. We are moving ahead with it, and we have a design day to see how we can get into the detail. Work is ongoing, and I am sure that we will have outcomes from that in the very near future.”
“That can derive from other traumas or impacts that they have had in their life, including domestic violence, which is one of the reasons why I am keen to address it particularly. Everything goes hand in hand, and I think that we can make really effective progress if we can have a cross-departmental approach on it. The work has already begun.”
“Yes, of course. There are kind of two strands to it. It is about better supporting prison officers so that they are able to do the job and feel equipped to deal with situations as they arise, but it is also about coming back to look at the needs of people in custody and whether we are best serving them. <BR /> <BR />Mental health is a shared responsibility between me and the Health Minister, and we have already had conversations about how we can move forward on this. Our working relationship has been positive, because there is a keenness to address this, not just within prison institutions but across the wider criminal justice system. It concerns me that a lot of people who come into the criminal justice system seem to present with some sort of mental health issue.”
“Coming back to the area of mental health, I am not sure, to be honest, that there are. I refer the comments that I made to Mr Kelly earlier and, equally, I do not think that prison officers are equipped to deal with certain issues of mental health cases that present themselves in prisons. They do, of course, have training in the area, but, as mental health cases in prisons become more prevalent, we need to review that and look at the training and the care needs. That is certainly something that I am minded to do within the next five years.”
“Stakeholders concerned about all the courthouses across Northern Ireland have approached me with their concerns about the court estate. Pending the outcome of the court case, it is difficult for me to say anything at this stage. What I will say is that I encourage everyone to have an input into this. These are buildings in towns in your constituencies. By all means, if there is an input or a better way to utilise them, I am keen to hear that — after the outcome of the court case, of course.”
“As the Member will be aware, the courthouses are pending court decisions. On that basis, it would be inappropriate for me to make a remark at this stage.”
“I thank the Member for his supplementary question. Again, I will be careful not to step on the toes of the judiciary in this area. We announced a sentencing review just before the summer recess that will hopefully address some of those issues. Taking on board the comments from Members in the House, I am keen to raise this as an issue with the Lord Chief Justice and see how he can best take it forward.”
“I thank the Member for his question. The public perception of this is quite worrying. Indeed, knowing a lot of information about this issue, I do not believe that it is as biased as some suggest. You highlighted the independence of the judiciary, and I am keen always to respect that. I have a good close working relationship with the Lord Chief Justice, and, if this is a public perception issue, I am happy to share those concerns with him on behalf of the Assembly.”