Claire Sugden
East Londonderry · Independent · Northern Ireland
“That is, gosh, almost 35 years ago, yet we are still having the conversation in 2026. If I were to speak to that eight-year-old girl, I would tell her, "When you are 40, Claire, this will not even be a consideration for you". Sadly, however, it still is. It is deeply disappointing that, when we had an opportunity, it was not taken.”
“Indeed, I tabled an amendment to that Bill to achieve the desired outcome, but, sadly, the opportunity was not taken. One of the strengths of the Assembly is that Committees can identify where Executive legislation has fallen short and produce their own practical, targeted solutions.”
“Frankly, we should be listening. Sometimes, we talk about equality in broad terms, but the Bill reminds us that equality is often about practical things. It is about removing unnecessary barriers from everyday life and ensuring that opportunities and choices do not depend on arbitrary differences between schools.”
“That is ridiculous. The point that we should all pay attention to is that of girls feeling less exposed. We should focus on that even if there were no other reasons to pass the legislation. Girls simply want to get on with their school day without having to think about something that most boys take for granted.”
“That meeting was a reminder that issues that can appear small to adults — there have been adults who have asked why the Assembly is legislating on this — can be issues on which we need to legislate. When people do not behave appropriately, we as a legislature have a responsibility to legislate.”
“Around one in seven couples in Northern Ireland experiences fertility problems, yet Northern Ireland continues to offer one of the most limited publicly funded fertility services anywhere in the United Kingdom. Couples face lengthy waits, restricted eligibility criteria and fewer publicly funded IVF opportunities than elsewhere.”
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“I thank the First Minister for her statement. I also acknowledge the fact that the Health Minister is in the Chamber. Sadly, the Northern Ireland Executive have treated the House with contempt over the past number of days, so I appreciate you being here and, finally, giving the House the respect that it deserves. <BR /> <BR />First Minister, will there be guidance in the next 24 hours to add meat to the bones of some of the announcements that you have made? Already, I am being bombarded with questions, and will do my best to answer them, but I am struggling to do that on the basis of what is here. I appreciate the fact that the regulations will, perhaps, go into that detail, but if there was a piece of work to be done, it would be about giving clarity to the audience, the people who need the information.”
“I thank my constituency colleague, Mr Bradley, for raising this issue in the House. It is an issue that all MLAs have been contacted about. I appreciate the Minister saying that it is not just an Infrastructure issue, but that it is a multi-agency issue. In fact, it is an interdepartmental issue, because this ultimately gave rise to quite serious antisocial behaviour, which culminated in quite a serious and significant event that led to the promenade being closed. I have a concern that we may face this again at other times of the year. Will the Minister work with the Minister of Justice to look at this as an antisocial behaviour issue, and to see what measures she can add to that to mitigate this happening again?”
“I welcome the appointment, and I appreciate that both Ministers have announced it in the House today; that is an important and significant statement to make. I am also impressed by Ms Ryan's background, not least her experience in the field of domestic abuse. Institutional abuse is comparable with domestic abuse, not least because it is an abuse of trust by the people who should have been protecting those children. The compensation will go some way towards acknowledging the wrongdoings against those individuals, but there is significant trauma there, and, in order for them to heal, we need to put more resources into addressing that trauma for them. Will they be able to access resources such as counselling or legal services through the commission?”
“<BR /> <BR />To follow on from Mr Allister's point, we need to look after those who are suffering the effects of COVID-19 — of course we do — but we also need to look after those who are suffering the effects of other illnesses because those illnesses are ruining people's life just as much as this virus.”
“<BR /> <BR />I have constituents coming into my office and begging me for appointments and telling me, at a time when they cannot afford to do it because there is a chance that they are at risk of losing their job, that they will pay privately for their child to see a doctor whom they should be able to access on the NHS. How do we genuinely address that? It is not good enough to say that you should call your GP and wait on the phone all day long only to be told, "Go to A&E if it is an emergency". That is the experience that my constituents have.”
“The recent rise in the rate of infection should give us all cause for concern, not least so that we do not overwhelm the NHS and prevent care being given to the most vulnerable who are suffering from the effects of COVID-19 or, indeed, any other illness. Minister, I appreciate your attention to accessibility to Health and Social Care services for other illnesses, but there is a lesson that we learned from the first wave — you expressed concern about it — about the limited number of people accessing services that they should be accessing. I am concerned that that will be compounded in a second wave.”
“Thank you, Deputy Speaker. <BR /> <BR />I appreciate the Minister's response. She talked about the European social fund: I have been contacted by a number of community and voluntary groups who are concerned about the future of that fund. If it is likely that that fund will no longer have a future, will her Department fund the shortfall, if it becomes an issue?”
“I thank the First Minister for her comments and share her sentiments entirely. How does the First Minister feel that, with less than two years left of this mandate, it is unlikely that we will get this onto the statute book before the next election, in 2022? Will there be another opportunity, perhaps through a legislative consent motion (LCM) on the legislation that is currently passing through the Commons?”
“Thank you, Minister. Minister, forgive me but it does not really feel like this statement, aside from its title, is on COVID-related allocations. Indeed, it could be argued that a lot of the allocations that you have made were gaps that existed before the pandemic. Will the Minister's Department audit how it is spent — for example, within councils and universities — so that it goes directly to difficulties related to COVID-19?”
“I thank the Minister for coming to the House. This is a grave error. We pursue criminal justice not least to provide closure for victims of crime. Unfortunately, this has opened up a very sore wound for them. I ask the Minister to consider compensating them for their loss for the pain that they have suffered and that they will also suffer in the conclusion of this process. <BR /> <BR />Can the Minister clarify the purpose of the clause in the forthcoming justice provisions Bill? Is she concerned that there is a vulnerability within the system and that this is to protect from any future mistakes?”
“I remain disappointed that Members have to seek the limited opportunities to scrutinise Executive statements that should be made in the Chamber rather than in the Long Gallery. I am also disappointed that the First Minister and the deputy First Minister have not come to the House to respond, given that it was their statement yesterday that has caused confusion among the public. However, I appreciate the attention of the Health Minister, and I further ask him whether we can expect additional restrictions, particularly in public spaces, such as the cafe and restaurant restrictions that we heard about from the British Prime Minister today?”
“Has the Minister considered hemp as an alternative to plastic and an opportunity for farmers to grow a versatile, sustainable crop now that licences are available in Northern Ireland?”
“I thank the Minister for progressing this really important work. Does she have capacity in her legislative programme to strengthen the law in this area before the end of the mandate?”
“<BR /> <BR />Minister, there is no point emptying the sink if we do not turn off the tap. I appreciate the motion, and I appreciate your efforts so far. However, I encourage you to lead with a wider vision alongside the good work that is only scratching the surface of what we need.”
“<BR /> <BR />Poor public services also add to that problem: women not being supported after a traumatic birth, communities that are given no aspirations so drugs and paramilitary gangs seem like a better option. I feel that the Executive are keeping a lid on it until the next election. I have heard nothing about a Programme for Government, nothing about outcomes-based accountability and nothing about cross-departmental strategies. I find that disappointing. I hope I am wrong. I hope that Ministers are setting a direction that truly encourages better governance and are not simply going along with how we have always done it. The increasing mental health figures and the statistics of those who have taken their own life show that is not working. How we have always done it is not working.”
“Trauma perpetuates a cycle that often manifests into a mental health addiction or domestic abuse issue that then traumatises others, who then take on their own mental health burden and so on. We must break the cycle, and the most effective way of doing that is tackling the abuse. <BR /> <BR />Trauma is a fact of life. We in Northern Ireland know that more than most. A generation and, sadly, subsequent generations because of intergenerational trauma, are living with the painful aftermath of the conflict. There are over 30,000 victims of domestic abuse a year and there are children raised in alcohol and drug-addicted homes. Are we really surprised that we have a mental health issue?”
“<BR /> <BR />I believe that that source is trauma. I find it extraordinary that we, as a post-conflict society, have not addressed the inevitable trauma arising from 30 years of conflict. It is not just those who directly experienced the conflict who are traumatised. It is the couple who strode through Coleraine, where a day later there was an explosion in the very spot where they had walked. It is nurses, paramedics and the girl on the bus. <BR /> <BR />The body keeps the score: it absolutely does. I am quoting the title of a book by Bessel van der Kolk. Please forgive my pronunciation. It recognises the impact of trauma on both body and mind and how it leads to mental health and addiction issues. From personal experiences and my previous role, I do not doubt that this is the case.”
“If anything, that might even be making it worse, because, as humans, we are tactile, social beings who want to feel loved and touched, and preventing that is having an impact. I am not criticising the public health response to COVID-19. It was and is necessary in order to save lives. I do, however, worry about the consequences of what the public have had to endure, the sacrifices that they have made and, most of all, the lasting mental health effects. <BR /> <BR />I am not surprised at the findings of the Queen's report. Every day in my constituency, I see and hear the anxiety, depression and fear that exists because of the pandemic. I see people angry and frustrated, which in itself is an outworking of poor mental health. That is even more reason that we need to get a grip on the problem by tackling the issue at source.”
“Surely it therefore makes sense to strengthen so that things are less likely to break. <BR /> <BR />In talking about the issue, I do not mean to be crude about money. Of course we should spend it where it helps, especially if it saves or improves a life. That is the job of all of us. How many lives could we save and how many could we improve if mental health did not become an issue, however? <BR /> <BR />I appreciate the Minister taking the lead on the issue and welcome his interventions in his time in office. The Minister of Health cannot tackle the issue alone, however. He needs support from his Executive colleagues in Justice, Education, Communities and even AERA. Mental health in Northern Ireland is its own pandemic. A vaccination will not fix it. Washing hands and socially distancing will not prevent it.”
“I support the motion. The reality is that many people across Northern Ireland, disproportionately so compared with other regions, are suffering from poor mental health now. What has led to that cannot be undone. Support, as described by others in the debate, is therefore entirely necessary. That having been said, in parallel with that support, we should have a wider policy vision of how we address our mental health issue: upstream, long before it becomes a crisis for the individual, their family, society and public services. <BR /> <BR />Like many issues in Northern Ireland, we tend to treat the symptoms rather than understand and address the issue. We spend a lot of public money at the most expensive part of the process: fixing what is broken. Even if we succeed in fixing, there remains a weakness and usually more cost.”
“I appreciate what the Minister said and recognise the challenges that everyone faces in respect of the response to COVID-19, but how is the Minister ensuring that GP surgeries fulfil their contractual responsibilities rather than passing those services on elsewhere and creating pressure that we may need to bring you back to the House to discuss at another time?”
“Thank you, Minister, for responding to the House. As a follow-up to your comments to Mr Allister, I do not think that this is about intent or what GPs will or will not do; it is about capacity. You spoke of the triage system in a number of your responses. Chance would be a fine thing: I hear daily reports of constituents taking up to a week to get through on the phone. When they get through, they are told that the appointment slots have been entirely filled, and then they are referred to A&E. In effect, we are creating a bottleneck in other services, whether it be A&E, pharmacy or other local provision.”
“I recognise the issue that the Member is raising. I intend to raise that issue with the Finance Minister because I believe that it is a flaw in the scheme. Those businesses should have been supported because the intent behind the scheme was to provide financial assistance, not to pay off bills to do with the premises. Would the Member support me in lobbying the Finance Minister to try to ensure that businesses that exist in one property and have only one rates bill are entitled to the same support?”
“I recognise that this is a whole-of-the-Northern-Ireland-Executive to try to help the people of Northern Ireland — we are one Government, after all — but it has to be led by the Economy Minister. Will the Member acknowledge that there are other financial supports — for example, rate relief — that could be extended to some of those who have been excluded? I know from questions that I have asked the Finance Minister that he is not prepared to do that, so I think that this has to be a whole-government approach, rather than one of pointing fingers.”
“Thank you, Minister, for responding. In my experience, the remit of the RQIA is quite limited, especially in respect of direct patient complaints and enforcement. Will the Minister give his view on its responsibilities? Does he plan to strengthen its remit so that we could feed into this bigger issue?”
“People talked about everybody being equal, but there are circumstances in which other contexts and different types of victim are considered. For example, the new Domestic Abuse and Family Proceedings Bill includes an aggravating factor that, if children are present, the sentence may be longer. So, there are opportunities to look at this in different ways. <BR /> <BR />I support the sentiment, but I think that we need to do this as part of a wider sentencing review. If anything, it should be an end-to-end justice review, but maybe that is for the next mandate.”
“<BR /> <BR />I have heard some people talk of a hierarchy of victims. I do not accept that. I look at the context in which crimes are committed. Evidence might suggest a hierarchy, and I would really like to see that evidence if we are to pursue this type of motion. Prison officers, police officers and front-line service workers are disproportionately targeted because of the work that they do. That is an important acknowledgement. These people are not targeted because they are sitting at home with their family; they are targeted because of the job that we, the public, expect them to do to keep us safe. That is an important distinction when looking at crimes like this. However, it might not be about pursuing this through new legislation or changing the sentencing framework.”
“The sentencing review that I announced was, in part, led by the case of Enda Dolan. It would be remiss of me not to mention it. His father, even in the last four years, has continued to pursue a change in the sentences for dangerous drink-driving, and I fully support that. Whilst I am happy to acknowledge and support what the proponents of the motion have said, I think that this must form part of a wider sentencing review. <BR /> <BR />Also, there is the parity issue and the practical implications of that. Other jurisdictions within the United Kingdom, and, indeed, the jurisdiction of the Republic of Ireland, operate differently in this area, as do we, which causes difficulty between regions. If anything, we need to look at that as a practical concern and one that means that we have to address this quickly.”
“If we, as representatives of the general public, are being told by our constituents that the framework is not fit for purpose, we have to listen to them. I fully recognise and support the independence of the judiciary. They are far beyond being qualified and experienced enough to be able to give their opinion on how we do this. Indeed, they are a major stakeholder, and we should be listening to what they say. So, however, are the general public and victims.”
“However, if it is not possible to have a wider piece to address what has been raised by stakeholders, maybe we need to look to succinct pieces of legislation that address elements of it. <BR /> <BR />I sought to review sentencing in 2016, mostly because of a lack of public confidence in our justice system. It was felt that sentences were not fit for purpose and did not reflect the crimes. I have heard many arguments that we, as legislators, should not be guided by the emotion of the public but should look at this from a judicial and fair justice perspective. We are legislators. The sentencing framework within which the judiciary will act will be in legislation. We create the law; they interpret it.”
“<BR /> <BR />I do not accept that the delay in the sentencing review was because we had no Executive or because of COVID, because, more than four years later, we are still are the consultation stage of the review. As Minister, I instructed the Department to get on with the work. That process should have been allowed to happen. The Northern Ireland Executive did not sit but Departments continued to work, so why has it taken nearly four years to get to where we are now? <BR /> <BR />I am not blaming or laying the fault at the Minister. She has not been in the post for very long, but I encourage her to progress this as soon as possible. This is a significant piece of work. There will have been many responses to the consultation.”
“Thank you. I might just do that, given that it does not happen very often. <BR /> <BR />I support the motion and the amendment. That is my first preference. If the House does not accept the amendment, however, I am content to support the original motion. <BR /> <BR />My support for the amendment, however, is on the basis that the Minister of Justice does review the consultation responses urgently, formulates new policy and brings forward legislation, if necessary, before the end of this mandate. If that is not possible, I am not sure that we can support the amendment. I do not think that victims of that type of crime can go another two years without getting the proper justice that I sought to achieve when I announced the sentencing review in 2016.”
“I appreciate the Member's giving way. I ask those who put their name to the motion this: if the deputy First Minister does not apologise as asked, what are the next steps? What do those parties intend to do?”
“I am pleased that the Minister was able to put on record the support that is being provided as a response to COVID-19 to enable Northern Ireland civil servants to work from home. As we emerge from the pandemic, I am being contacted by constituents who work for the Northern Ireland Civil Service, who say that they are being asked to come back to work and that childcare arrangements are not being taken into account. Will the Minister provide the NICS COVID-related policy on working from home to the Assembly so that we can provide it to the constituents who are making those queries?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. If the current advice remains in September that the distance between teachers and pupils must be two metres, or even if that were reduced to one metre, what challenges would that present for teaching assistants, in particular, who support children with special educational needs in the classroom? If we move towards a classroom bubble, again, how would that work for teaching assistants who may support children across various classrooms?”
“I understand that considerable capital moneys have been committed to the Magee project. Will it be necessary to provide additional moneys to the Department for the Economy for the running and day-to-day costs or will it have to find those from within its budget?”
“I really want to be generous because I recognise the unprecedented situation that the last number of months have brought; however, I will say that Executive communications have been limited in that they have failed to understand the needs of the audience and what they can comprehend. Each new announcement has brought so much confusion and anxiety and, in some cases, disregard for the restrictions being announced. We can remove that by improving our communications. As a learning experience, moving forward, not just for communications related to COVID-19 but for communications from government generally, will the First Minister commit to a review of the communications strategy with the aim of trying to improve our communications so that they reach and get the message across to the intended audience?”
“— including FFA and other issues. The wording is ambiguous, and, knowing the proponents' policy position on the matter, I do not think that I can support the motion. <BR /> <BR />Lastly, I will make a point about why people do not feel supported.”
“I remain deeply conflicted about abortion, and I am not even sure I entirely agree with the position that I am taking. It is a highly emotive issue, and my guide tends to be compassion for everyone involved. Our previous law and our leadership vacuum could not facilitate compassion for women, their partners, their families and the babies they carried, so the law needed to change. <BR /> <BR />When I initially read the motion, I was inclined to support it, because I have difficulty with the regulations, namely part 3, which enables termination up to birth in certain circumstances. I thought that the motion was referring to that. I reread the motion and found that it rejects all imposition of abortion legislation, including not only Down's syndrome but everything else —”
“I thank the leader of the DUP for giving me that side of it. I disagree, but that is obviously something that we will have to agree to disagree on. <BR /> <BR />That said, I fully respect the varied opinion on the issue, and I genuinely welcome the discussion. I just do not like the choreography, which also extends to the amendment tabled by those on the other side of the House. It is easy to agree with decisions when you have relinquished responsibility to someone else, but, when you are called on it, please be honest. <BR /> <BR />Nonetheless, there are many opinions, and I have taken time to listen to all of them. It is clear to me that this is not a simple binary choice of pro-life versus pro-choice. It is not black and white; it is the greyest of greys.”
“Thank you. I appreciate that, but I still feel that you had power to do something more than vote against it and pay, I suppose, lip service to the fact that you did not support that motion.”
“Yes, you voted against it, but you had the ear of Downing Street and could have done much more. I do not think that you did.”
“I have no doubt that the intention behind the motion is to give its proponents an opportunity to express and put on record their partisan position on abortion generally, subsequent to legislation that was passed in Westminster last year. I have no difficulty with that. I reiterate my earlier point: the issue should have been debated and progressed in this House. But it was not. It happened at Westminster, where the party that has moved the motion today had, at that time, the power there to stop it happening. If I overstate that power — I do not believe that I do — I would really welcome an intervention from the DUP to explain why they did not try to stop it at that point, especially considering the action that they have taken today and took in October.”
“If they had no intention of supporting any change, they would have rejected it from the outset. They did not.”
“<BR /> <BR />I rise not to support the motion or the amendment for a number of reasons that, I hope, I have time to outline. I appreciate the opportunity that the proponents of the motion have given the House to discuss the issue. We are a devolved region of the United Kingdom with statutory responsibility for health and justice issues, and it should have been for Members of this House to progress the legislation and subsequent regulations. I sought to do that when I was Minister of Justice in a previous mandate, alongside the then Health Minister, in respect of fatal foetal abnormalities. I genuinely believe that that would have happened had the Executive not collapsed. At the time, I was criticised for sitting on a report. I did not; I was giving my Executive colleagues time to consider it.”
“First, I would like to say a few words about Heidi Crowter. Heidi really is a remarkable young woman. I get goosebumps when I see her and other young women like her speaking up for what they believe in. I have not met Heidi — I would really like to — but, from what I see and hear, I know that her challenges have not limited her; rather, she takes value from those challenges to enable and strengthen her. We could learn so much from that spirit. Heidi's intervention is important because she represents an informed and experienced voice that is affected by the debate. Like other MLAs, I have received significant correspondence from constituents and others expressing their view on the issue. I appreciate the time that they have taken to contact me not just in the past week but in the time since the legislation was passed at Westminster.”
“Thank you, Minister. This is a good statement, which will please many, including sub teachers, who have been fighting for it. The announcement of support for students facing hardship is important, as is the extension until the end of the financial year of the rates holiday for targeted businesses. The Minister listed a number of those targeted businesses, included guest houses and childcare providers. I ask the Minister to confirm whether those who operate from a property subject to domestic rates will be included. Will they be able to avail themselves of a domestic rates holiday? For example, a guest house tends to be its owner's home, so guest houses tend to pay the domestic rate, not the non-domestic rate. Will he extend the rates holiday to include all businesses? That is not quite clear from the Minister's statement.”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am quite disappointed that I, as the only Member left to ask a question, was not able to get in within that hour. You gave the Minister discretion in being able to finish her answer past the hour, so it is disappointing that you would not allow me the opportunity to ask a question in less than two minutes. It is also disappointing given that many Members in the House can be represented by colleagues in asking their questions, but I, as the only independent Member, do not have that luxury. I would appreciate the Speaker's discretion to try to enable Back-Bench Members, who are not members of the governing parties, to ask questions.”
“It baffles me that we have not addressed it up until now. We have not resourced the issue up until now. The fact that there are 30,000-plus incidents of domestic abuse in Northern Ireland every year, and that figure includes only those that we find are being reported, demonstrates that we need to tackle the issue. If those were figures from any other project, it would be obvious into where we needed to put our resources. I appreciate the Minister taking forward the Bill. It is, sadly, three years too late for many people, but, moving forward, it is the right thing to do. I will support the legislation.”
“<BR /> <BR />The new Part of the Bill, which I am not familiar with, concerns family proceedings. I ask the Minister whether that is included to address somewhat the concerns around parental alienation. Prior to restoration, I met Department of Justice officials to discuss parental alienation, and we felt that it could be specified in the Bill. It was felt at the time that the legislation covered parental alienation and could be interpreted in such a way but that perhaps a way in which to strengthen the legislation, particularly for the criminal justice agencies, would be to add it to the guidance so that, whenever the agencies are reading and interpreting the legislation for a criminal justice process, it would specifically mention parental alienation. <BR /> <BR />Tackling domestic abuse is an issue that I am very passionate about.”