Claire Sugden
East Londonderry · Independent · Northern Ireland
“That is, gosh, almost 35 years ago, yet we are still having the conversation in 2026. If I were to speak to that eight-year-old girl, I would tell her, "When you are 40, Claire, this will not even be a consideration for you". Sadly, however, it still is. It is deeply disappointing that, when we had an opportunity, it was not taken.”
“Indeed, I tabled an amendment to that Bill to achieve the desired outcome, but, sadly, the opportunity was not taken. One of the strengths of the Assembly is that Committees can identify where Executive legislation has fallen short and produce their own practical, targeted solutions.”
“Frankly, we should be listening. Sometimes, we talk about equality in broad terms, but the Bill reminds us that equality is often about practical things. It is about removing unnecessary barriers from everyday life and ensuring that opportunities and choices do not depend on arbitrary differences between schools.”
“That is ridiculous. The point that we should all pay attention to is that of girls feeling less exposed. We should focus on that even if there were no other reasons to pass the legislation. Girls simply want to get on with their school day without having to think about something that most boys take for granted.”
“That meeting was a reminder that issues that can appear small to adults — there have been adults who have asked why the Assembly is legislating on this — can be issues on which we need to legislate. When people do not behave appropriately, we as a legislature have a responsibility to legislate.”
“Around one in seven couples in Northern Ireland experiences fertility problems, yet Northern Ireland continues to offer one of the most limited publicly funded fertility services anywhere in the United Kingdom. Couples face lengthy waits, restricted eligibility criteria and fewer publicly funded IVF opportunities than elsewhere.”
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“I encourage the Government to ensure that it forms a part of the new Programme for Government. <BR /> <BR />I will not go into too much detail about the other amendments, as other Members have said much of what I feel about zero-hours contracts and increasing the qualifying period of employment from one year to two. Briefly, zero-hours contracts need reform because they are open to abuse. We all know what that looks like. I do not think that an outright ban, however, is appropriate. As I said, in my experience, a zero-hours contract satisfied me to an extent because it allowed me to prioritise something that was more important in my life. I was able to work and earn something to pay for any bills that I had.”
“Missing from the amendment is something that I hope will inform the debate moving forward: there has been no consideration of the bonus gaps between men and women. That contributes greatly to the figures that seem to show so wide a gap. There are many reasons why men get paid more bonuses than women, and a lot of it is not down to performance. I will not go into the details, but we need legislation that addresses that as well. <BR /> <BR />For all the reasons above, I will not support the amendment. I do not think that it is the right vehicle. I will not support it at Further Consideration Stage either because I do not think there will be an opportunity to do that. The Bill has been rushed at the end of the mandate, and I feel that there has been no time to consider it properly.”
“The amendment also sets out regulations for this to be in effect by 10 November 2016. The Member said that that was because that was Equal Pay Day. Whilst that is quite a nice concept that seems to tie in everything nicely, it seems a little soon to me. I hope that those who tabled the amendment are mindful of the realistic difficulties with implementing legislation that will cost businesses more in the same year as we implement the living wage. Unless the amendment comes alongside government proposals to support private businesses in implementing it, we could be putting pressure on our small businesses. <BR /> <BR />I do not want to misrepresent myself. Gender pay parity and the living wage are absolutely the right things to do, but we need to be mindful of the current economic climate, particularly in Northern Ireland.”
“The detail of amendment No 10 has led me to oppose it. It will not apply to employers who have fewer than 50 employees. England, Scotland and Wales are proposing equal pay legislation for employers who have more than 250 employees as a first step. Whilst I appreciate that Northern Ireland's economy is significantly different from those across the water, with SMEs making up the majority of our private sector, I am unsure about the figure of 50 that has been put forward in the amendment. I cannot come up with a figure because I am as uninformed about it as anyone else in the House. Again, I think that that is due to the lack of consultation and something like this not being proposed sooner.”
“While the amendment is unlikely to pass, it is important and needs to be considered as we move forward. I think that, particularly as we seek to grow our private sector and shrink the public sector, unless we address this, we could have an unwelcome situation where, as our private sector grows, the gender pay gap also grows. That will mean that we will actually be going backwards.”
“Although that may indicate that, for once, Northern Ireland is at the forefront on progressive issues, it actually highlights a symptom of a huge public sector compared with a small private sector. I am interested in up-to-date figures, particularly in light of the recent voluntary exit schemes, to see whether that gap has widened any more. Typically, gender pay gaps exist in the private sector, and I imagine that most businesses do not realise that a problem exists until they are forced to look at it. That is why today's debate is helpful.”
“In fact, the Prime Minister seems really enthusiastic about getting it within the next generation, so I certainly look forward to my grandchildren having the same opportunities as their male counterparts. In the UK, we are behind by 20%, so that is not a great figure. The figure also varies by occupation. The pay gap is probably biggest in the skilled trades, processed plant machine operations and for managers, directors and senior officials. <BR /> <BR />I am more than sympathetic to Sinn Féin's proposal, but it is complicated. It deserves more attention than a last-minute amendment that has not been analysed or consulted on properly. According to 2014 figures, as Members said, we do not have a gender pay gap in Northern Ireland, and, in fact, men are behind women.”
“It is important, however, that we have an opportunity to discuss the issue, and I agree in general with the intentions of the proposed new clause. However, I do not agree with the amendment and the wording that has been put forward. <BR /> <BR />As I said, the proposers are correct to table the amendment, if only to raise the debate and encourage the Minister, the new Minister or, indeed, the Minister of another Department in the new mandate to seek an opportunity to address inequality realistically. As Members said, across the UK, although gender pay equality is improving, it has not changed dramatically over four years. It is thought that pay parity for men and women will take 50 years.”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak on the second group of amendments at the Consideration Stage of the Employment Bill. I congratulate the Minister on getting the Bill this far. I also thank the Committee staff for turning the Committee Stage around in such a short time, although it is regrettable that the time was so short. I am no different to other Members in that my focus is drawn towards amendment Nos 10 and 15, which have been tabled by Phil Flanagan, Bronwyn McGahan and Fra McCann, and amendment No 14, which has been tabled by Basil McCrea. <BR /> <BR />I turn to amendment No 10. The bulk of my contribution will be on the gender pay gap, but I understand that the Members are not seeking to move that amendment.”
“I was at university not so long ago. In one of the first jobs that I had to pay my fees whilst I was working through university, I actually had a zero-hours contract. It worked quite well for me because it meant that I was able to prioritise my studies and work my job around those. There was no obligation on me to work set hours. I did actually appreciate the flexibility there. Does the Member have any thoughts on that?”
“I appreciate that the Minister is looking towards addressing the issue. I have been speaking to a number of providers, and they are telling me that their big issue is that they just do not have enough nurses. Apparently, for every care home across Northern Ireland, there is one less nurse than is necessary for health and safety. When will the Minister start to pay for provision so that the people can get the care they are entitled to and nurses will be encouraged into this role?”
“We have to come back to the crucial point of why we are not doing it in 2016, which is that parties feel threatened. That is a job for the parties. On 5 May, they have to convince the public to elect them. If they cannot do that, why are we manipulating the system so that they have a better opportunity in five years' time?”
“Perhaps that is a valid reason, but it says to me that we are not as politically stable as we thought we would be. It was the same with the review of public administration. It never went as far as was always intended, because it was felt that, if we gave Assembly powers to local government, it would destabilise this place. There would not be enough powers to share out. That is not political maturity. That says that we are quite a long way off, and putting it off for another five years is another example of that. <BR /> <BR />There is no Member who will not support the Bill, and, whilst I will support it, it is important to the debate that we say what this is all about. It is not about reducing us from 108 to 90. We will do that, and the public know that we will. We would probably be shooting ourselves in the foot to say otherwise.”
“<BR /> <BR />As other Members said, boundary changes would have been of great value. I represent East Londonderry, and, as the Deputy Speaker will realise, it is a bit of an odd constituency because of the way in which administrative bodies work in it. I represent two council areas — Derry City and Strabane District Council and Causeway Coast and Glens Borough Council — two health trust areas and two Education Authority areas. That makes my job challenging, particularly as an independent. To put it in that context, the reduction in the number of Members to five will be quite difficult, so we need to look at the issue in a wider context and call it for what it is. A spade is a spade. We are not doing this in 2016. We are doing it in 2021 because parties feel threatened.”
“I come back to a point that I mentioned earlier. It has been revealed why the date is 2021 and not 2016: parties in the House feel threatened that they will be undermined if we take this forward now. Do not get me wrong, the election on 5 May will be a generational watershed for the Assembly because new Members are already coming through and being co-opted. They will not have an opportunity to build a profile between now and May, so perhaps the opportunity in five years' time to establish stability in those parties is why we are leaving it to 2021 and not doing it in 2016. This is not turkeys voting for Christmas because Christmas is 5 May 2016. Right now, we are trying instead to get the goose involved, and we can then live our lives out in the next five years and be happy to be secure in our positions five years from now.”
“You are representing government, and government is not there to represent: MLAs are, so I do take exception to that.”
“<BR /> <BR />Whilst it should not be about crunching numbers now, 18 years later is the time to start looking at this from an efficiency point of view. Start looking at it for the purpose of this place in respect of representing the people of Northern Ireland. If we are not doing that, why are we here? We can look around the Chamber and realise that some people are not doing that, so now is the time to move on. <BR /> <BR />Some Members said that we are on the right side of public opinion on accelerated passage, but accelerated passage takes away the public's voice. The purpose of the Chamber of the Northern Ireland Assembly is to act as the scrutiny body of the Northern Ireland Executive. Therefore by fast-forwarding that and taking those scrutiny powers away, you are not representing the people.”
“This Bill represents another step in post-conflict Northern Ireland. I was 12 years old in 1998, and whilst some of the details are a wee bit hazy, I do remember it as being quite fraught. I suppose that the Good Friday Agreement in 1998 was to ensure peace and inclusivity. I am not sure about the numbers, but maybe 108 Members was necessary back then so that everybody could be part of the peace process and have an opportunity of it. <BR /> <BR />However, sacrifices were made to ensure peace, and we are seeing the outworkings of those sacrifices 18 years later. As Members said, there is a democratic deficit here. Whilst this is not a numbers game, there are people here making up the numbers. That is not good for the people of Northern Ireland.”
“Apologies, Principal Deputy Speaker. You are saying that the wait for five years is because of a political agreement, yet the House will agree on it today. We have broad political agreement, so I do not quite get that argument. For what reasons are we waiting five years for this to be put in place?”
“This turkey certainly loves Christmas, and I would much rather that we have it now in 2016. I still do not understand why we cannot have it in 2016 as opposed to 2021.”
“I thank the Minister for his response. I believe that gaps in the current system have led others to make up that shortfall, which discourages investment in town centres. Equally, I do not wish that burden to be passed on to the community and voluntary sector. Where is the balance, so that occupiers do not incur an unfair rates bill every April?”
“How have the FE colleges and the two universities responded to the skills barometer in providing skills identified?”
“I welcome the statement. It seems to encourage the potential of FE colleges, which I think have long been underutilised. I also welcome the fact that the Minister seems to be prioritising the NRC, and I look forward to his announcement about the new build in Coleraine — very soon, I hope. I am quite interested in the relationship between the FE and HE sectors, particularly given that, under the new structures of government, they will sit in different directorates. How does he see that relationship being built to ensure that it is a strong partnership moving forward?”
“The most important aspect of leadership is not the leader but the people behind the leader: the followers and the people of Northern Ireland, who deserve better than this past year. I hope that today is the beginning of better.”
“It is a milestone that two out of three of the First Ministers of our devolved nations are women. Today, we have ensured that capable female leaders are acknowledged alongside their male counterparts. Mrs Foster demonstrates that well. <BR /> <BR />I disagree with Mrs Foster on many things and will continue to be critical from this back corner, telling you what you are doing wrong because that is my job. Indeed, she would expect it from me, and surely she should expect it from all MLAs. I see it as a point of reference to do better. Mrs Foster should embrace that challenge because she has earned it. <BR /> <BR />I sincerely wish Mrs Foster well in her new role in driving Northern Ireland forward into a new, positive space.”
“I wish the outgoing First Minister well in his retirement and the deputy First Minister, Martin McGuinness, well on his reappointment. <BR /> <BR />For me, however, today is all about one woman: Arlene Foster. She is not just a good politician: to be fair, she is a great politician, and she is a woman. Today, she is First Minister — the first female First Minister — of Northern Ireland. That is incredible, and I am inspired. I hope that young women — all women, in fact — across Northern Ireland will also be inspired. Today, we are beginning a necessary new generation of political leaders in Northern Ireland that welcomes and encourages young women into politics. <BR /> <BR />Mrs Foster is not just the right woman for the job; she is the right person.”
“I think that one of the problems with non-domestic rates is the net annual value (NAV). Will the Minister tell me how she intends to review how we value properties?”
“How has the Department been encouraging bidders to consider the community and voluntary sector as part of their proposed plans?”
“Does the junior Minister or the deputy First Minister recognise that the failure of Departments to work together for the needs of those with disabilities has led to a loss of provision? How do they plan to address that?”
“The Minister is always welcome to the prom for a Morelli's at any time. There is speculation around the Dunluce Centre site being a possible location for a hotel. Will the Minister confirm if that is an option he is considering?”
“Yes, I am entirely aware. We have put a requirement in place that will not work, even in the last instance. <BR /> <BR />I am keen to hear what the European Commission has to say about this. I hope that it is paying attention to the debate because I cannot imagine that the fund that it hoped that we would present in the most effective way is being presented as such. I cannot imagine that the Commission is happy with it.”
“It is not reasonable to expect some of the organisations to be able to provide that teaching qualification, particularly when no spaces are left on the course. Others spoke about the cap on qualifications. We are almost putting a barrier in place for people to reach their potential, because they can reach only the potential that the Department states, which is quite low. <BR /> <BR />I will focus on presentations to jobs and benefits offices. As I said, I sit on the board of Compass Advocacy Network, which is an organisation for adults with learning disabilities. They have barriers to presenting themselves to jobs and benefits offices, so the ESF, by putting that requirement in place, has created a barrier for them, and that is not really what the —”
“As an Assembly and Northern Ireland Executive Government, we should certainly support the community and voluntary sector. Indeed, we are told that the new European social fund was changed to enable streamlining, which would make it simpler for the community and voluntary sector. It is not simpler; it is not only a headache but a quite bad migraine. I ask the Minister to look at the new programme. <BR /> <BR />The goalposts seem to keep changing on the contracts that these groups signed. I question their legality and even encourage community and voluntary groups on the new programme to seek legal advice, because I am not sure that those contracts stand. Some goalposts that have changed — other Members talked about them — are on the teaching qualification.”
“Organisations that are owed, including those on the new programme, cannot move forward. Worryingly, they are on the edge of a cliff, and, regrettably, some have been pushed over. <BR /> <BR />I want the Minister to take responsibility. I want him to give satisfactory answers to the groups that have been torn apart by incompetence in his Department. I appreciate the fact that the Minister has tried to find solutions, but it is not good enough. It is not good enough right now and is not good enough where those groups find themselves because of inefficiencies and mistakes in his Department. <BR /> <BR />The community and voluntary sector provides services that the public sector cannot and should not provide, particularly, as Mr Flanagan said, in rural areas. They know their communities and have their respect and trust.”
“<BR /> <BR />Two significant strands of the European social fund are causing concern: the old programme and the new programme — essentially, the whole European social fund. In the spirit of the motion, I will focus on the European social fund moving forward. In order to do that, however, it would be remiss of me not to draw attention to the significant amounts of money that are still outstanding from the old programme. We are told that, in some cases, that is up to £1 million, and, in many other cases, it is hundreds of thousands of pounds. That is appalling, and it has forced charities and other organisations to seek debt to remain afloat so that they have some hope of maintaining services for the people whom they work for in the community. The significant amount of money that is outstanding is unacceptable.”
“I support the motion, first, as a representative of East Londonderry; secondly, as a strong advocate of the community and voluntary sector; and, thirdly, as a member of the Committee for Employment and Learning. <BR /> <BR />I wish to declare an interest: I sit on the board of Compass Advocacy Network, an organisation that is in receipt of European social fund money. Although my contribution to the debate will reflect my work as an individual MLA, I wish to pay due regard to my Committee colleagues for enabling the debate to reach the Floor. I also appreciate the Committee's endeavours in ensuring that the Minister and his Department have been held to account on the issue in Northern Ireland: it has seemed like a long year.”
“In moving forward, I hope that others in the House will also consider their leadership, being most mindful of the people who, they hope, will follow them.”
“Ironically, I do not disagree with the document; it has so many incredible goals. It could have more, but it is a start. However, on principle, I will not vote for the legislative consent motion this evening. Moving forward, I will commit to the agreement, if the authors respect me and my mandate. Currently, that respect is not there, so some work needs to be done. <BR /> <BR />I thought that I knew respect, but, earlier in the week, I let myself down by letting emotion get the better of me. On taking this seat, I vowed that this would never be about me but only about the people I represent and the people of Northern Ireland. As a leader, I am sorry for not maintaining that position, and I do not mind admitting it, because that is the right thing to do.”
“Our community — the people of Northern Ireland — does not have confidence in us. Let us face it: why should they? Many will not even get past the title of the agreement because they have heard it all before. Before they can click on the link to the Northern Ireland Office website, they hear that some MLAs will not support it because they have not been given the opportunity. Therefore, I feel that the authors of the agreement have destabilised it before it has had a chance to be considered.”
“I note the First Minister and deputy First Minister's foreword in 'A Fresh Start:the Stormont Agreement and Implementation Plan':”
“That is disappointing, and it weakens the notion of power-sharing that we have fought so hard for. I do not believe that yesterday's agreement goes any way to addressing the failure of our structures here; I actually believe that it affirms it. I will, therefore, take the opportunity — as, I hope, will others outside Sinn Féin and the DUP — to vote against the motion on the principle that the people of Northern Ireland deserve to be represented by all MLAs in the House — all five of the main parties, the smaller parties and the independents — because the people of Northern Ireland gave them that right. <BR /> <BR />Yesterday's agreement underpins today's legislative consent motion, and that is why I will walk in the "No" Lobby.”
“Shame on them, because their posturing has served only towards the suffering of the people of Northern Ireland. I do not mean to reiterate what I said earlier this year. However, I will say that serving the most vulnerable goes beyond welfare. The past six months have taken service away from people. I am thankful that we have maintained devolution, but the arguments for devolved power here are weakening. If we are not serving them, what are we doing? <BR /> <BR />I come back to the legislative consent motion: I will not support it on principle. Frankly, my vote is not required to get it through, although, to be fair, it will finally get welfare reform moving and will subsequently, hopefully, get Northern Ireland moving. However, other than the votes of the DUP and Sinn Féin, no one else is actually required for the motion to go through.”
“I am deeply disappointed and angry about the last six months, because I fail to see what that time achieved other than to fail the people of Northern Ireland. The UK Government have upheld their position. The agreement yesterday almost reads quite smugly about how they have maintained their line. Even the title suggests that the document is a continuation of the Stormont House Agreement, a second phase of its implementation, if you will. <BR /> <BR />I have heard much from the parties on this side of the House about why they petitioned the Final Stage of the Welfare Reform Bill in May, but I am lost in coming to any of their conclusions. I suggest that their reasons were not about welfare but were a vain attempt to satisfy a very despondent electorate at that time.”
“It was clear in May that the UK Government were not going to concede any more than what was fought for for Northern Ireland, particularly at the beginning of a five-year term and in light of other issues that they felt took precedence over Northern Ireland. I reiterate what I said then: we need to be realistic about what is available to us. Six months ago, welfare reform as presented to the House by Minister Storey was all that was available to us. I am not comfortable saying that, because, regrettably, it was the best of the worst. Although it was doomed, I voted reluctantly in favour. <BR /> <BR />On rereading 'A Fresh Start' in the wee hours of the morning, Mr Speaker, I did not think that anything had changed in the six months since the parties to your left condemned Northern Ireland's Welfare Reform Bill.”
“Social issues are not unionist, nationalist, anything in-between or outside of; social issues are people, and, as representatives of people, we all need to put people first. I say again: any MLA who understands the aim of the Westminster Welfare Reform and Work Bill should not support it as legislation on its own. <BR /> <BR />The Welfare Reform and Work Bill, however, is not without context. Indeed, this context led me and others to vote in favour of the Northern Ireland Welfare Reform Bill earlier this year. Welfare reform is, in my opinion, ultimately not the decision of the Northern Ireland Assembly; the UK Government maintain that power.”
“From the outset, I have stated that I do not support the Westminster Welfare Reform and Work Bill. In fact, I do not think that any MLA supports it, because, disappointingly, the Westminster legislation focused on chiding the proportionately few who take advantage of the welfare system rather than supporting those who need it most. <BR /> <BR />I refer to Mrs Bradley's earlier contribution, when she acknowledged a reluctance to use the word "benefit": I agree. For those who need it, welfare is not beneficial. It is a struggle, a last resort, and it is not as far-reaching as it needs to be. I hope that she does not mind me saying that I also agree with her when she says that no party has a monopoly on protecting the rights of the most vulnerable. Social issues should be at the heart of each MLA's mandate.”
“I thank the Minister for his statement. How will GCSE-equivalent courses in FE colleges be affected by this?”
“I thank the Minister for her response. Further to the measures that she outlined, I feel that the problem is significant enough to warrant more measures in that area. Will the Minister commit to working with the Minister of Education to find a way of providing a solution to the problem?”
“I congratulate the Minister on her new role and pay due regard to Mr Kennedy.”
“They are dependent on one another. <BR /> <BR />There are many questions to be raised around organ donation, but, ultimately, I come back to the overarching principle. This is an opportunity to save more lives, I know that we have to put more into that than just that one notion, but it is a notion that will be dictated by everybody's lives and the decisions they make. I have no issues at this stage saying that I support the Bill, but I will look for it to be strengthened in the other arguments that I have presented.”