Paul Frew
North Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for that intervention. Nevertheless, there are concerns that I want to address. The Minister and the departmental officials will know that, even from the range of questions that I have asked. We need to make sure that we get the balance correct.”
“In the written and oral evidence received then, the Committee was advised of potential amendments that the Minister may table at Consideration Stage, including an amendment to remove the commissioner that is being considered in liaison with OLC.”
“That in itself causes some victims and witnesses bother, because they are in a system that they are not part of, which means that they do not get the support that they require. That can sometimes leave them feeling retraumatised, as though they have been put through the wringer again.”
“The Bill makes provision to offer those protections and provide clarity to victims that they do not have to face their perpetrator in court. <BR /> <BR />Members asked questions about a range of matters, including the independence of the office, the ability to review the performance of any future commissioner, the costs of establishing th…”
“I thank the Minister for her intervention. She was absolutely right to take that action, as it means that victims' voices are right at the heart of the matters under discussion. It is now obvious to us that that should have been done years ago, but it is good that it is being done now.”
“Officials explained that the Bill would legislate on the disclosure regime not to prevent an application for disclosure but to set out a process whereby the defence would have to show the relevance of the information that it was requesting. That is an important protection.”
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“At its meeting on 3 July, the Committee considered a briefing from the Department on the provisions that, it thought, were likely to be included in the second LCM. At that stage, along with most of the other provisions that we are discussing today, those included measures relating to policing barred and advisory lists and strengthening age verification requirements on the online sale and delivery of knives and crossbows.”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak on the motion. The Minister has outlined the purpose of the second LCM for the Crime and Policing Bill and the provisions that will extend to Northern Ireland, so I will focus my remarks on the Committee's consideration. <BR /> <BR />The House will be aware that, on 29 May 2025, the Committee for Justice agreed that it was content with the Department's proposal to extend the number of provisions in the Bill by way of an earlier legislative consent motion. During the Committee's considerations of that first LCM, the Department had indicated that it was likely that a second LCM would be required for provisions for which policy development was ongoing or that were expected to be added as the Bill progressed through its stages at Westminster.”
“Does the Member agree that it was the DUP that led the way in introducing the Nordic model to Northern Ireland?”
“<BR /> <BR />Pimping websites approve access to women for those men, acting as an online brothel where a man can, with ease, browse and order a woman and then review her as if she were a product. That is absolutely grotesque. As has been outlined, the sites facilitate and drive demand for the human trafficking and exploitation of women and girls into Northern Ireland for that purpose. <BR /> <BR />In the past month, a man has been charged with controlling prostitution for gain under article 63 of the Sexual Offences (Northern Ireland) Order 2008. It is about time that we see more such convictions.”
“So-called adult services websites are online brothels, and we allow them to operate with impunity. Of course, central to the crime are the men who buy sex on such sites; men who, as the primary purchasers of sex, have no regard for the plight of the women and girls whom they are purchasing. Those men are not ignorant of the grim reality that exploited women face; they simply do not care. On those sites, purchasers are often able to leave reviews of the women and girls whom they have purchased. Although the existence of that feature is demeaning and degrading in itself, what is, perhaps, more demeaning and degrading are the reviews that men write about the women whom they purchase. The comments are vile and are an indication of the type of men who purchase women.”
“The Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe points out that:”
“Sarah's experience is not a horror story from a distant country or a one-off terrible crime. What happened to Sarah happens every day in towns in Northern Ireland. Women and girls are bought and sold as if they were commodities. They are the product, and the pimps and traffickers who supply them are the profiteers, but so, too, are the websites that facilitate the sale of those women and girls. The websites and platforms are not innocent bystanders. They, too, make money from the sale of human beings. One such platform's profits have been reported to run into millions of euros. The websites are the shopfront of human trafficking and exploitation. Men go to the sites to buy women and girls for sex. The sites serve no purpose other than to meet men's demand to access women's bodies while making a tidy profit.”
“Her passport picture was later used to create an online profile to advertise her for sex. She had no access to or control over that profile. She was raped by her trafficker and abused by the men who booked her through the website. According to Sky News, the man who abused Sarah is now in prison, but the website that facilitated her abuse is still operating.”
“Human trafficking and commercial sexual exploitation are serious and disgusting crimes, and we must do everything in our legislative power to stop them. Lord Morrow's introduction of the Nordic model in 2015 was a major milestone in progressing the objective of reducing demand for prostitution and, in turn, for human trafficking. I am privileged to have served in the Assembly with Lord Morrow during the passage of that historic Bill. <BR /> <BR />In 2018, the Home Office estimated that the median time for which a victim trafficked for the purpose of sexual exploitation was held was 274 days. During that period, a victim experiences 795 instances of rape and sexual assault. In 2024, Sky News shared the story of Sarah, who thought she was attending a job interview. She was lured to a flat, where she was asked to hand over her passport.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. Will the Minister give any indication as to why she could not forward the wording of that deepfake amendment to the Committee earlier?”
“The Minister can make excuses all that she wants, but she brought the vagrancy amendments to the Committee when they had not yet gone through the Executive, so why has she not been able to deliver the deepfake amendments to the Committee to allow us to do a job of work to ensure that the legislation that we produce in the Assembly is fit for purpose? We have been left wanting in that regard. I am being critical of the Minister because she is being unfair on the Justice Committee and its work. I therefore look forward to seeing the deepfake and nudity amendments, on which the Minister and, according to public utterances, her party are working. It is about time that we saw them, Minister.”
“I thank the Minister for her intervention. The Committee has taken its time with the Bill itself but also with the Minister's proposed amendments. We have been in the precarious position of having had to scrutinise not only the detail on the blue pages of the Bill but the file of proposed amendments received from the Minister after Second Stage, which meant that the Assembly was not able to debate the detail of those amendments. She was able to bring forward amendments on restorative justice schemes, on organised crime groups, on matters to be included in criminal record certificates, on biometrics, on live links and on the repeal of public order offences, but we are still waiting for the deepfake amendments so that we can do some work on scrutinising them.”
“I was critical of the Minister at the Second Stage of the Justice Bill, which I have called "half a Bill". My frustration is that, although the Justice Bill was introduced on 17 September 2024 and the Second Stage debate was on 1 October 2024, we have yet to see the amendments on the deepfake issue from the Department and the Minister.”
“I am not for banning any social media platform, but it is really easy — it probably involves the flick of two switches — to ensure that the technology that is used to create nude pictures and deepfake forgeries that have sexual content is prohibited. The platforms should have no excuse. They should delete the parts of their apps and the technology that can do that. What good comes from using technology to do that? I can think of no positive outcome from creating nudity pics or forgeries of sexual activity. It just does not make sense to me. That is why I and my party will support legislation in that regard. <BR /> <BR />I then come to my frustrations, because we have a vehicle to deal with the issue — the Justice Bill — and we have a Minister who has promised to bring forward amendments on deepfakes to her Bill.”
“The Democratic Unionist Party is supportive of proposals to criminalise sexually explicit deepfake images as part of a holistic approach that includes legislation, enhanced support and resources for victims and increased public awareness, because we realise how important the issue is and how impactful such images can be on the victims. It is fair to say that it is mostly females who are targeted for that hideous activity. We should have legislation in place that makes it an offence to create, share or threaten to share a sexual digital forgery of an adult. It should also be an offence to request such an image. The manufacturers and the platforms should ban those requests or at least prevent them from being made.”
“The information that the Minister has put out on the valuation of businesses and the percentage increases that some have received have sent shock waves through the industry. That is only part of the story that the Minister has told today, however. Will he commit to opening a direct line to all the businesses with massive concerns about their valuation so that they will be able to work out, per pound, the increase in their rates bill?”
“The Minister spoke of a concern about Ministers being held to a new and novel standard on empathy. The same commissioner recently undertook a report on the conduct of Michelle O'Neill under the ministerial code. What is the Minister's analysis of how the two investigations compare?”
“I thank the Minister for that answer. What specific support can he give to instil confidence in businesses in North Antrim?”
“Constituents who are no longer with us paid the ultimate sacrifice, even years after their service ended. My thoughts are with their families today as we reflect on the disrespectful and truly awful words of the US president.”
“Many of our service personnel are used to that type of commentary but from our enemies and from people down the pub who do not realise what service is about. To hear it from the US president, who is the commander-in-chief of an allied country, is hard to take. Those words will have caused deep trauma and hurt to the brave people who suffer to this day because of their injuries, both physical and mental. The words came from a president who does not really know what service is, the experiences that come with it or the deep respect that one gets when serving alongside soldiers from other nations, including those from the US, who will be ashamed of the commentary from their commander-in-chief. <BR /> <BR />Many of my constituents who served with distinction still suffer, and I try to help them every week.”
“It is right that we take the time to mark and condemn the words of President Trump when he described NATO forces in the way that he did. His commentary was truly awful, reckless, disrespectful and removed from any reality or fact. I am deeply proud of all those from all nations who served with honour in Afghanistan and fought for freedom and democracy. From the UK, 457 personnel paid the ultimate sacrifice, including a number from Northern Ireland, and they are much-loved and deeply missed family members. The 1st and 2nd Battalions of our own Royal Irish Regiment served together with great distinction and honour on the front line. <BR /> <BR />President Trump's words were insulting, disrespectful and ridiculous.”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. Can she give a date by which she will respond to survivors' letters? When does she intend to announce her decision on the group's recommendations? What financial allocation does she foresee being required?”
“However, those people have to wait and then prepare themselves for a trial in which all the details will be laid bare for all to see. That is not easy, yet those victims and their families are now faced with an intolerable anxiety and wait, because not only do they have to live with that delay but they have no idea of when their loved ones will receive justice. They have not got a date, which could even be delayed again, or a time, meaning that they cannot prepare themselves. That in itself is criminal. <BR /> <BR />Again, I ask the Justice Minister to reprioritise the issue, stay off the microphone, get around the table with the representatives from the Criminal Bar Association and step up to resolve the issue for the victims of crime.”
“It is concerning that the Justice Minister is having to clarify her words and apologise for inaccuracies around important matters that impact on victims' lives, their upcoming court cases and people's livelihoods and jobs. We need the Justice Minister to do all in her power to prioritise the recommencement of criminal court cases. We need the Criminal Bar Association to do all that it can to end its strike. Putting out inaccurate information will not help anyone, not least the victims of some of the most heinous crimes in our recent history. <BR /> <BR />I have spoken with some of the victims' families who have been desperately awaiting trial. That is not an easy thing. Their worlds were cut asunder when they lost loved ones to murder. People's lives were cut asunder when their loved one was a victim of a sexual crime.”
“It was about the uplift being referred to as an interim payment.”
“As Chairperson of the Justice Committee, my heart goes out to all victims who are caught up in the strike action, including some of my constituents in North Antrim. The 16% uplift in fees was only due to begin being paid this month. How much does the Minister believe that the prolonged delay has contributed to the new strike action? Will she confirm that Judge Burgess described the 16% uplift as being an interim position only? Will she further confirm whether the Bar has supplied submissions on proposals to the Department, including independent economic appraisals, to move on the negotiations?”
“In June of this year, the Justice Minister told 'The Nolan Show', of all people, that she wanted to acknowledge the Police Ombudsman's decision to delegate the powers to the chief executive and the senior staff of the ombudsman's office. That being the case, why did the Justice Minister not choose to acknowledge and inform the Assembly of the Police Ombudsman's previous offer to resign?”
“In a crisis, we need more scrutiny powers and more of a say, not less, but that is what all those parties supported at the time: shame on you all.”
“Yes. I thank the Member for that vital intervention. It is that Act, which still sits on the statute book, that has done the damage. We have families who are filled with regret, guilt and torment because they could not give their loved ones a proper send-off according to their religion. They could not do that. In Ireland, North and South, a wake is really important, and those people were denied it. In fact, they could not even stand in the open air in a field — a burial ground. That was disastrous, and we still live with the consequences. Assembly Members in the Chamber were denied the ability to scrutinise and denied their say, because we passed laws weeks after they had been enforced, when they had been duplicated, removed and superseded three or four times over. That is no way to run an Executive; that is no way to run an Assembly.”
“Yes, I will, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am referring to module 2 of the UK COVID-19 inquiry, which talked about all those matters. An Alliance Member asked me one day, "Why do you keep asking those questions?". Well, that is our job. It was their incompetence. We know that the Alliance Party played a massive role in the coercion around vaccine certification. We need to grapple with this issue, but to use it as an excuse to reform these institutions, which were held in abeyance? The Executive did not function properly. The Assembly could not do its scrutiny work. It should take months to pass regulations and legislation in this place.”
“That party, the SDLP, then called for the sacking of nurses, who had worked for a whole year on the front line; the SDLP called for their sacking. Those people, the SDLP, even called for the unvaccinated and those who chose not to have the discriminatory certificate to be banished.”
“No, I will not. <BR /> <BR />Whilst the regulations were fleeting, the damage remains to this day: people filled with anxiety, not able to leave their home; people not able to attend school; people who were coerced to take vaccines that damaged them — of course, the Member called for house-to-house and door-to-door vaccine teams to coerce people into taking a vaccine that caused them adverse reactions. That is what we are left with, but it is what Alliance will not get to grips with. <BR /> <BR />When I was asking questions about and raising objections to those restrictions, two SDLP Members came to me in the corridor and said, "You know, Paul, we agree with everything that you say in there". I asked, "Well, why do you not get up off your hind legs and actually say that?", and they said, "No, our party would go through us".”
“Reform could not have stopped the Coronavirus Act 2020, which made this a zombie Assembly that rubber-stamped horrific laws weeks after they had been enforced and then, of course, superseded. Those laws had been made redundant numerous times over before the Assembly even voted on them.”
“No, I will not give way. <BR /> <BR />Reform will not fix incompetence, reform will not fix lazy governance, and reform will not fix stupid. Everything that was constitutional and institutional about this place was held in abeyance at the time of COVID. Reform would not have stopped those parties and the Assembly giving away all its power to one person, no matter who that person was, to dream up regulations and restrictions and have them written up over breakfast, implemented at lunchtime and enforced by supper time. It shifted the whole dynamic of the Executive. The Executive changed, in one move, how they would make decisions that impacted on our people so badly and disastrously.”
“Alliance would dare to exploit that and, indeed, Alliance's own failings to try to further its political goals and objectives.”
“Today, so many people who have suffered loss and bereavement have been in the Building. I do not know whether Members got to see and hear the event in the Long Gallery this morning involving people who suffered loss and bereavement due to the pandemic and the lockdown philosophy that meant that they could not bury their loved ones, attend a funeral or attend a wake.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. With regard to the advice that was given to Robin Swann, the Health Minister, who had all the power — whether he chose to use it or not was up to him — the CMO in England silenced the ethical and moral group that was there to advise him on ethical standards. That would have migrated over the sea in the advice that Robin Swann received. Does the Member agree that it was dangerous to have power in one man and one party throughout that emergency?”
“<BR /> <BR />Those people seek a physical memorial through which their loved ones who died in the pandemic and during the lockdown should be remembered, but the greatest memorial that we can give those people is that never again will our people, communities and society be locked down as they were during the pandemic.”
“The absence of opportunities to have traditions associated with death and dying, whether religious or cultural in nature, was cited often in the feedback. Saying goodbye to loved ones or being present during their final moments was not available to the majority of respondents. Those psychological and emotional omissions were described as having a significant toll on the individual and the family, amplified by the variations in manner and tone of communications or interactions with professionals at the time of the loved one's death.”
“When asked about receiving support following the person's death, a large proportion, 37%, indicated that this was not offered to them. For those who got support, the source of this was largely family, 40%, or friends, 15%. That included 80% who reported that they did not get the support needed for the grief that they experienced during the pandemic and lockdowns. <BR /> <BR />The conclusions from the report include that a number of salient themes were evident through a review of responses on both the survey and from the support session evaluations. The most prominent of those themes was the traumatic impact of experiencing a death during the pandemic. That was impacted by the systematic and structural restrictions enforced by the Government in the management of the pandemic.”
“I speak about an event that I attended this morning, a collective healing through honouring our loved ones. It was a meeting to launch a report on all the people who died during the pandemic and the lockdowns. The process of grieving was explored with the individuals who took part in the study, and a question was asked whether the individual felt that they were able to grieve the passing of their loved one. While 17% stated that they could, 55% reported that they had not been able to do this and 28% were unsure. Self-reported mental health rates revealed that 56% described it as either "poor" or "very poor". Some 32% stated that it was "average", while the remaining 12% gave their mental health a rating of "good" or "very good".”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker, for your grace. I thought that, in your generosity, you had discovered the Christmas Carroll there.”
“That is the way that we should go on the issue in order to have it in legislation as quickly as possible.”
“<BR /> <BR />I think that we can do this, and we should search through all the existing legislation to see whether we can amend it to include this matter.”
“You are not serving the people who are caught up in it, you are not solving any of their vulnerabilities and you are absolutely not helping at the scene of an accident. Therefore, I support legislation that will prohibit someone taking an image of such a scene. Think of the devastation for the families finding out that their loved one has perished or has been severely hurt. Think how much more negatively impactful that would be if you were to hear it or see it on social media. Of course, when loved ones get that message from the police, it is all about trying to get around extended family before they hear it from somewhere else. They do not stand a chance if the news goes out on social media quickly and instantly and travels around the community and the town or village where they live. They have absolutely no chance.”
“The last thing that you should do is take out your phone, other than to contact the emergency services. <BR /> <BR />When I came across that scene, I was able to communicate with the fire and ambulance services in order to describe where exactly the accident was on the road and to make sure that appliances came from both directions, as was required. When people come across accidents, it is important that they act responsibly and as best they can and that they communicate with the people whom they need to communicate with, not least those who are involved in the accident. <BR /> <BR />It is really important that we send the message today that it is wrong to take images at the scene of a tragic, fatal or horrific road accident.”
“There was a fatality in a multi-vehicle traffic accident that blocked the road in both directions, which meant that ambulances had to come from both directions, putting them miles out of their way. When I came across that, I would never have dreamt of using my phone to take a picture of the horrific scenes that I witnessed. Not only do people sustain injuries in such incidents, but others can suffer from shock, causing them to do things that are completely out of character. In that moment, such a situation can be dangerous and volatile. Rather than take your phone out, you need to deal with what you see in front of you. You need to think about the casualties who need your help and how you can respond in the best way that you can in that situation while feeling, as you do, completely hopeless.”
“I support the motion and commend the proposer of it for bringing to the House a very sensitive issue. We are a legislature, and, in legislating, we need flexibility to bring in new laws when they are required. As life becomes more modern and digital technology takes over, the Assembly must adapt. The legislative process takes a long time, as it should, for all sorts of good reasons, but we really need to get started on legislation that is required for the modern era. We support the motion wholeheartedly, because it is simply wrong to take an image on a phone or to use another device to take a picture of the scene of a horrific incident in which someone might be seriously injured or, indeed, lose their life. <BR /> <BR />I was a first responder to an accident.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Is it not a bit rich for Sinn Féin to have tabled such a motion, which is divisive and couched in the language of majoritarianism, when it does not even take its seats at Westminster?”
“When you put something in statute, you have to allow flexibility, and that is what the regulations and parts of clause 11 will bring. <BR /> <BR />I commend the Bill to the House. I am glad to see this day for a number of reasons, not least because it gives recognition to all parents who have lost a child, whether it was stillborn or did not make it through the pregnancy. The loss will be recognised — a loss that nobody has seen or held and one that even grandparents and other family members could not see. It is important to recognise the loss, even if it is just through a baby loss certificate. It will mean something, but it also means that the Assembly, the Minister, the Department and the Committee are listening to the people who have suffered loss, and we acknowledge and register it. It is a good day. I commend the Bill to the House.”