Paul Frew
North Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for that intervention. Nevertheless, there are concerns that I want to address. The Minister and the departmental officials will know that, even from the range of questions that I have asked. We need to make sure that we get the balance correct.”
“In the written and oral evidence received then, the Committee was advised of potential amendments that the Minister may table at Consideration Stage, including an amendment to remove the commissioner that is being considered in liaison with OLC.”
“That in itself causes some victims and witnesses bother, because they are in a system that they are not part of, which means that they do not get the support that they require. That can sometimes leave them feeling retraumatised, as though they have been put through the wringer again.”
“The Bill makes provision to offer those protections and provide clarity to victims that they do not have to face their perpetrator in court. <BR /> <BR />Members asked questions about a range of matters, including the independence of the office, the ability to review the performance of any future commissioner, the costs of establishing th…”
“I thank the Minister for her intervention. She was absolutely right to take that action, as it means that victims' voices are right at the heart of the matters under discussion. It is now obvious to us that that should have been done years ago, but it is good that it is being done now.”
“Officials explained that the Bill would legislate on the disclosure regime not to prevent an application for disclosure but to set out a process whereby the defence would have to show the relevance of the information that it was requesting. That is an important protection.”
The complete record
Every one of 3,736 lines we hold for Paul Frew, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 72 of 75.
“Therefore, 15 FEOs cannot be charged for that. That, in itself, could and should be looked at. We want everyone to be retained. We do not want anyone to lose their job, but these are things that seriously undermine the productivity of the PSNI.”
“I note what the Minister said previously about the five-year rule. Our amendment proposed a moratorium on any change. That was simply to inject stability into the system, given the new enhanced fees. I believe that, with the fees as they currently are, the police are losing out. The effect of our proposal on the current fees would be as follows: the cost of a firearms certificate would rise by 76%; an RFD licence by 153%; a visitor permit by 50%; a one-off, one-on variation by PSNI by 70%; a duplicate certificate by 55%; and a firearms club licence by 19%. <BR /> <BR />In addition, the PSNI would receive a new revenue stream for one-off, one-on transactions carried out by the RFDs. It should be noted that the DFP review completed on 24 April 2015 noted that only 14 of the 29 FEOs were required for firearm licensing duties.”
“Whilst I take the Minister's point on the granting of a firearm certificate and the difference that will be multiplied by the 60,000, he should understand that additional new fees have been implemented into this proposal to help recover some of that cost and make it more balanced and more efficient for the PSNI's firearms and explosives branch so that it is remunerated for the work that it undertakes more so than the other areas where there is not as much work.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I hear what the Minister says about the work of DFP and DOJ officials on the cost recovery and also the interested parties, as the Minister puts it, with the vested interest. Does he recognise that the fees that are proposed in the amendments and worked on by the three bodies in particular are an honest, responsible compromise approach to try to bring a resolution to the issue?”
“The Minister will be aware, as I am, that, even in my constituency of North Antrim, many football clubs are applying for planning permission and funding to enhance their sports grounds and get them up to a certain level. There is a certain fear out there that not all the clubs spending money at present will be able to see out their development and get planning permission and funding to push forward their plans. Will the Minister give an update on that? Does she have any fear about funding for the various schemes?”
“Before you get off the issue of the banded system and the fee structure, it is important to emphasise that there should be good communication and consultation with stakeholders by DOJ and PSNI. If you look at the past, even the recent past of the firearms dealers' security specification, you see that 17 firearms dealers have gone out of business over the last year — some, undoubtedly, because of that security spec. That is one example of how DOJ and PSNI should not conduct business.”
“<BR /> <BR />I bring these amendments to the House in the full knowledge that we may well be asking for withdrawal, and I hope that the Members opposite and the parties across this Chamber will see the spirit in which we have brought these amendments, the spirit in which we have helped the industry and DOJ officials come to a conclusion and a resolution and that they embrace that spirit moving forward.”
“We tended to give officials and the industry as much time as possible to come to a resolution and a compromise solution. I believe that we have gained that, and I hope to hear from the Minister later on those issues. I also hope that the spirit, which has transformed the talks and negotiations over the last number of weeks, will continue and that we will see the issues resolved once and for all through whatever vehicle the Minister chooses. I hope that it will be through the Justice (No. 2) Bill, and I hope and wish that he speaks on that as much as he can today.”
“The certificate holder may also have been through the vetting process on further occasions if they had submitted any variations to their existing firearms holding. That means that the PSNI's firearms and explosives branch will have been able to scrutinise the certificate holder's ammunition usage to ensure that they have sufficient experience to be a supervisor. That is in contrast to the situation in GB, where there is no requirement for the adult supervisor to be a current firearms certificate holder. Also in GB, the supervisor is required to be 21, not 25 as stated in our amendment. <BR /> <BR />I have spoken enough on these amendments. I want the House to recognise that we realise that bringing forward amendments and a new section to the Justice Bill would not have been the preferred choice.”
“The robust supervision criteria set out in the amendment are over and above the existing supervisory requirements of the Firearms Order, which states that supervisors must have attained the age of 21 and have held a firearms certificate for a firearm of that description for at least three years. <BR /> <BR />Those enhanced supervision criteria mean that those responsible for supervising the young person at 11 years or older whilst they are shooting must be at least 25 years of age with at least five years' experience with that particular type of firearm. It also means that the supervisor, who must also hold a firearms certificate for a firearm being used, will have been through the PSNI vetting process on at least two occasions; once on initial application and then at the five-year renewal point.”
“They are also fully committed to the pursuit of equality that will allow young people in Northern Ireland to be taught safe discipline and respect for firearms under supervision during their formative years. <BR /> <BR />The Minister and his Department will be aware that, in 2012, a petition run jointly by BASC, the Countryside Alliance Ireland and the Gun Trade Guild Northern Ireland gathered nearly 3,000 signatures in support of a reduction in the age at which young people can be taught to shoot under supervision. Indeed, the Assembly already voted on the issue in March 2011 when it voted for no minimum age for supervised shooting. The amendment introduces a minimum age of 11 for supervised shooting and the robust supervision criteria of 25 years of age with five years' experience.”
“<BR /> <BR />The objective of the amendment is to make a modest adjustment to the Firearms (Northern Ireland) Order 2004 to allow young people to use shotguns and air guns under robust supervision in order to ensure public safety. This change is intended to bring to our young people in Northern Ireland a degree of fairness and equality with their peers in GB where no minimum age exists and no problems have been encountered. At the outset, I stress that the BASC, the Gun Trade Guild Northern Ireland and the Countryside Alliance Ireland are at one with the PSNI and the Department in striving to ensure public safely and the integrity of the Northern Ireland firearms licensing system.”
“Young people in Northern Ireland are unreasonably disadvantaged compared with those in Great Britain where no such minimum age exists. Many young shot have gone on to win medals at international events, including the Commonwealth and Olympic Games. <BR /> <BR />When it comes to the use of licensed shotguns and air rifles, the law in Northern Ireland is not only inconsistent in itself but also when compared with the opportunities afforded to young people in the rest of the UK, where no minimum age exists. The amendments would give young people in Northern Ireland a compromise step towards equality with their peers in Great Britain without having any adverse consequences to public safety.”
“In late 2006, many organisations responded to a consultation on young people and licensed firearms. Each responded with an emphasis that reflected its particular area of expertise and interest. However, the main shooting organisations, together with those political parties that responded and many others, were united in their desire to see our young people participate and compete in sporting shooting on a more equal footing. There is a strong body of opinion that says that it is desirable for young people to learn safe firearms use at an early age rather than later in their teens. There is no evidence whatsoever to show that the supervised use of firearms by children and young people of any age poses any detrimental effects to public safety.”
“Yes, and I thank the Member for his contribution. He is quite right. We have a thriving sporting fraternity in this country. We have a good and responsible industry, and it needs to be enhanced and grown. I believe that our amendments will do that, and I hope that the Minister sees fit to do something about them in the next vehicle that he proposes. We await with interest to hear what the Minister has to say.”
“Most young people will be following boy bands and doing all those sorts of things, but some in our community will be massively interested in the sport of shooting. It is important that those young people be given that opportunity, just as their colleagues and fellow competitors in GB are. They may well be able to go to the Commonwealth Games and the Olympics to compete for their country in shooting, and they may bring back some medals. Of course, if they do, we will be the first to stand up in the Chamber and congratulate them on that.”
“I will gladly give way if he wants to confirm that rumour.”
“<BR /> <BR />I will move on to the third aspect of our amendments, which concerns the young shots. The debate about young people having supervised access to shotguns and airguns has been rumbling on since the mid 1990s. Let me make it clear that not every young person wants to hold or fire a firearm. For some, it will not be of any interest to them at all. Most of our young people will be listening to music and following boy bands. Some may even follow the Spice Girls. I want to put it on the Hansard record that I think that the Justice Committee Chairman's favourite band is the Spice Girls.”
“That is something that I worry about, and I ask the Minister to address that point, because, if you have already paid for an application for a certificate and it has been refused, that may put a burden on the appeals system. I believe that something like 1·2% or 2% of the population who apply for a certificate are refused. Some will be refused on very good grounds, and we do not want those people who have been refused to appeal and eventually get a certificate. They will, however, have nothing to lose by going through an appeals mechanism. That in itself may put an unnecessary, unexpected burden on the PSNI firearms and explosives branch, which would negate the fact that people have to pay up front for an application for a certificate. That is something that I am concerned about.”
“Rather than the fee be kept high, thus allowing the PSNI to rest on its laurels when it comes to full cost recovery, I would much rather see a challenge laid down to the PSNI to make sure that it becomes more efficient at delivering the service and for the Minister to set a fee that will put pressure on the PSNI to reach that level of efficiency. There is an opportunity for the Minister to drive down cost, and I hope that he embraces that with a whole heart. <BR /> <BR />There is another issue that worries me about fees. When people who use firearms apply for a certificate, they may have to pay a cost for applying, as opposed to paying a fee to get the certificate.”
“<BR /> <BR />There are still issues to be resolved, one being any imminent review of some of the fees, especially the grant for the firearms dealers. I think £300 or thereabouts is mentioned in there somewhere. There is the issue of cost recovery, and the Minister may well reserve the right to review that. That is OK, but we would be worried about the outcome of that review. If we are talking about full cost recovery to a body like the PSNI, which we know is one of the most expensive, if not the most expensive, constabularies in the UK for administering fees, it would be unfair to burden the industry with full cost recovery.”
“That is a common-sense approach that I believe all players have now adopted and agreed to move forward. <BR /> <BR />The other amendments on fees are about substituting another schedule in the Firearms Order 2004 for a new series of fees. I must say that I commend the industry and the sporting fraternity for coming up with a realistic approach to the fees. It has not been the case that we just do not want to pay; there has been a realistic and holistic approach to all the fees. It includes adding new fees, because they recognise the burden that there may well be on the PSNI in administering some of them. I applaud the industry and the sport for bringing forward the compromise proposals and, of course, the DOJ and the PSNI for agreeing a compromise position on that.”
“The onus and responsibility will be on the firearms dealer to do that appropriately and correctly. It will save the PSNI time and paperwork and will reduce bureaucracy. Basically, in the banded system, there will be a series of bands with similar-sized calibres of weapons and firearms within each. You will be able to go to your firearms dealer and exchange a weapon of similar calibre, size and scale and not have to then get an amendment on your firearms certificate. That will be vital for the sport and the industry going forward. I do not intend to speak too much on the banded system — I know that my colleagues may want to come in with more detail on that — but the compromise proposal for the banded system is that there will be four bands with similar-sized calibres in each.”
“<BR /> <BR />As has been agreed in compromise, if you like, with the DOJ officials and the PSNI, we propose that we move to a banded system. That will mean that all the transactions will need to be carried out by a dealer at the new PSNI fee of £15 — I think that was the figure in the fee structure that it proposed — and the dealer will then fax or email the relevant form. That might be two forms, depending on the outcome of further discussions with the PSNI firearms and explosives branch. It will then send a fax or email to update its records, and the applicant will get his new firearm on the same day, and the dealer will get payment. That will reduce the burden of bureaucracy and the level of work needed to amend certificates. <BR /> <BR />I believe that is a compromise position and one whereby we will be able to apply common sense.”
“The applicant would have to then wait until his new certificate was returned from the PSNI before collecting his new firearm, and, in most cases, the dealer would also be waiting till that time to receive payment. That would cause problems with cash flow, and it would also cause problems with dealers holding that firearm, because he or she will have roles in the storage and with the number of firearms that he or she can have in stock. So, there are issues. There is also an issue with the length of time that it takes the PSNI to bring forward the new firearms certificates, and, of course, there is a great burden on the firearms and explosives branch of the PSNI to change the certificates and to grant new ones. An awful lot of time and effort is spent on that.”
“At the minute, our system is such that if you want a variation on your firearm, you need to apply for it. That means sending away your firearms certificate along with a four-page application form and possibly even a new land permission letter, depending on how the original land permission was written and granted.”
“The minimum age at which a young person can be granted a firearms certificate that will allow them to shoot under supervision is currently 16. The minimum age for supervised shooting without a firearms certificate is 18. There are roughly 35 firearms certificate holders between the ages of 16 and 18. <BR /> <BR />Those are some of the statistics that show how the sport and industry impact on and are good for Northern Ireland. I want to repeat that the sport itself is worth £28 million annually to the Northern Ireland economy. <BR /> <BR />I will take Members through the banded system, although I do not intend to speak too much on these, because they are schedules that are, of course, complicated in nature. However, I will give a wee bit of context.”
“<BR /> <BR />Shooting is worth £2 billion a year to the UK economy and provides significant conservation benefits, according to the results of an independent report conducted by Public and Corporate Economic Consultants (PACEC). The report, which was released in June 2014, found that shooting is worth £28 million annually to the Northern Ireland economy and that shooting influences the management of approximately 69,000 hectares, which is approximately the same hectarage of land owned by Northern Ireland's Forest Service. <BR /> <BR />Statistics from that report confirm that there are approximately 59,500 firearm certificate holders in Northern Ireland, roughly 2% of whom are female. Going by the last available statistics, the average age of a firearms certificate holder in Northern Ireland is 53.”
“Again, we will wait to see what the Minister says, but I come before the House in a spirit of compromise and goodwill, and I believe that that goodwill should be replicated throughout the House today. <BR /> <BR />The amendments in question refer to new clauses, which I will go into some detail on. One of them is on the banded system, which is to do with the calibre and type of firearm. Amendment No 12 refers to young shots. Amendment Nos 15 and 17 concern commencement, with the young shots provision commencing after Royal Assent and that on fees and the banded system commencing 90 days after Royal Assent. Amendment Nos 20 and 21 concern new schedules to be placed in the Firearms Order 2004.”
“If it is indeed the case that members of the Justice Committee may well have to bring amendments to forthcoming and new Bills, we reserve the right to do so, but I believe that that may not need to happen because of the position that the Minister and his officials have now taken. I commend them on it.”
“I thank the Member for his contribution. I assure him that there is now, I believe, a spirit of people working together. I believe that the DOJ and PSNI officials know the strength of feeling in the Committee, as they always have done, and they know that we are prepared to do as much as we possibly can to bring this issue to the forefront and, more importantly, to resolve it. That is why we tabled these amendments at this stage: we had the courage to do that to bring it to this point. I commend the negotiations and the spirit in which the DOJ, the PSNI and the Minister have brought the compromise forward. I believe that we are so very close.”
“I commend all three organisations, the sport and the industry for the work that they have done. They worked tirelessly and put in long hours at meetings with officials over the last week to get a resolution. I commend them for that.”
“I commend the Minister, the DOJ and PSNI officials for, eventually, coming to the table and negotiating with the industry and the sport to the point at which, I believe, a lot has been achieved and agreed over the last number of days. So, I speak in a positive spirit and one of compromise. I believe that we have resolutions to these taxing issues that have been to the forefront of the sport's and the industry's mind for many years. <BR /> <BR />It is also important to put on record that the British Association for Shooting and Conservation (BASC), the Gun Trade Guild Northern Ireland and the Countryside Alliance completed work with DOJ and PSNI officials. They also worked with us, the MLAs on the Justice Committee, and the DOJ officials to bring this to a compromise position and, hopefully, a future resolution.”
“Let me say at the outset that it is not preferable to table amendments, and even new clauses, at Further Consideration Stage. We recognise and acknowledge that for the record. However, because the Bill has such a wide scope, we have taken the opportunity to do that. We feel that tabling these amendments and bringing this issue to a head has focused minds. Over the last number of days or the last week, a number of meetings with DOJ officials, PSNI officials, the firearms industry, the shooting fraternity and the sport have taken us to the point at which there is a level of understanding and compromise, and a new level and spirit of cooperation. That has been very heartening, to say the least.”
“I certainly will have no hesitation in supporting them. I recognise the spirit in which they were tabled and understand exactly what they would have done. They were also intended to enhance the protection of vulnerable people, which must be commended to the House. <BR /> <BR />I will end there, but, again, I thank everyone for supporting my amendment at Consideration Stage and, hopefully, supporting this amendment at Further Consideration Stage so that it can be enacted in law.”
“We must be cognisant of children. We must make sure that children, given that they are vulnerable, are placed in the safest place possible at any given stage of their lives. <BR /> <BR />I also pay tribute to Dolores Kelly and the SDLP for the amendments that they had brought forward but have withdrawn in the knowledge that they will come before us again.”
“It is only well and good that the PPANI organisations are the administrators and managers. They are the experts and the people who manage and monitor. They are best placed to make decisions on disclosure. Of course, this was adding to that disclosure scheme. We already have disclosure in Northern Ireland whereby, if the PPANI organisations deem there to be a risk or threat to a person, they can disclose, so allowing a two-way process. Anyone who wishes to apply for disclosure will be able to do so. It is all based on and geared around the protection of a child. Members recognised that and saw that this could go some way to enhancing that protection. I pay tribute to the PPANI organisations. They are the people who do this daily to keep us all safe and reduce the risk to all of us, in particular our children.”
“Before I even took the matter on, he had asked questions about it to build up a knowledge base to take it forward. I also commend the DOJ officials for working with me on getting an agreement and a form of words and the Minister for amending it here today to make it tighter and a much better fit in the Northern Ireland context. I also commend the staff in the Bill Office for their help throughout the process. They are a very able and worthy band of people who work quietly behind the scenes and do tremendous work for us all. We had a session on the subject with DOJ officials in Committee. They were able to reassure members on the procedural aspects and how it will work in practice, which is very important. <BR /> <BR />I commend the NSPCC for the work that it did with me. The NSPCC is part of PPANI.”
“Sorry, Minister? OK. I thought that you wanted me to give way. <BR /> <BR />It is good that the Minister, the officials and the Justice Committee can work together in a good spirit to bring forward amendments that satisfy all of us and the House. <BR /> <BR />There has been much debate on amendment Nos 2 and 3 from the Justice Minister and the amendment from Sinn Féin's Raymond McCartney, which speaks to that. We understand the spirit of and the intention behind the amendment. We understand that the Minister's amendments would go much further and be tighter. We certainly welcome the spirit of and intention behind those amendments. <BR /> <BR />That leaves only amendment No 5, which is close and dear to my heart. I pay tribute to Lord Morrow — he has just stepped out of the Chamber — for his work on the issue to date.”
“With amendment No 1, I can remember very clearly that, in the House that night, the Justice Minister was very aggrieved and annoyed at the petulance of the Justice Committee in having done this. I would hate for him to have the powers of Henry VIII because I do not know what would have happened to individual members of the Justice Committee. However, it goes to show that the Justice Committee takes its role in the scrutiny of legislation very seriously. There was a principle at stake that we managed to drive home. That led to the Minister taking it in good grace and then amending —”
“The Member will realise, having lives through all the Troubles, that when the IRA were murdering people for giving information to the police and the security forces, Sinn Féin and the IRA were speaking to and negotiating with the British Government. However, they were still murdering people. Even today, they are sitting here as British agents and as British Ministers administering British law.”
“It is time that they heard the truth from the Members opposite.”
“It is very important, when we come to truth, that it is the whole truth and nothing but the truth, because that is what our people deserve. Our people have been butchered and murdered and blown to bits long enough —”
“You may laugh and scorn at that statement, but I know for sure that there are many today in the ranks of political parties who were and are informers, which led to the defeat of the IRA. Many of you sitting in the room tonight may also have been informers and gave information to the police. Let us remember what that statement means, because the IRA murdered people and "disappeared" them because they gave information to the police — not even for informing or being an informant, but just for giving information to the police. You murdered them; the IRA murdered them; and that will never be forgotten by our people. <BR /> <BR />I have no doubt that the use of informants means that we have peace, or relative peace, in our towns, in our cities and on our country's streets.”
“They ethnically cleansed large communities in our border counties; they worked in the shadows, hid in the hedges and shot people in the back, at their place of work, or at their front door with their children around their knees. They blew them to bits in their cars, in their vans, and even in the school buses they were driving that day. We will never allow this peace process or this truth recognition process to be one-sided. We will never ever allow that to happen. <BR /> <BR />When I think about the use of informants, I have no doubt that it actually strangled the republican movement to a halt. I believe that it eventually led to the defeat of the IRA and all other terrorist organisations.”
“No, I will not, because your party did not have the good grace to give way to other Members of the House. <BR /> <BR />We need to find out the truth about the IRA and other terrorist organisations. We need to find out everything about their murders and their activities in murders. We have the Kingsmills victims and families, and we have the Teebane victims and families. Every time they hear Sinn Féin talk in a forked tongue, in a confined environment, it pours more pain and more hurt on those people, and that will be echoed across the spectrum of victims — across everyone in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />Look at what the terrorist organisations did to our people.”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. <BR /> <BR />Yes, any collusion should be investigated, but you have to remember that whilst we talk about collusion, Sinn Féin talks about informers as being in collusion, and that is not the case. The use of informants is a tried and tested means of helping to protect people in a security threat and in a security environment, and that is what our security forces and security services had to do. I have no doubt that the use of informers saved many hundreds of lives.”
“<BR /> <BR />Given that 60% of murders were committed by the IRA and 30% by loyalist terrorists, there is absolutely no doubt that that is where the blame must lie for the Troubles and for the pain and the hurt on all our people. No matter what religion you are, what church you worshipped in or what background you came from, murder is murder, and it was committed by terrorist actions. Ten per cent of those killings were committed by security services, but many of them were committed by bringing terrorists down as they were active and on their way to murder innocent victims.”
“I rise in angst at the behaviour of the party opposite and at the way in which, at every opportunity, whether in the House or in the media, they apply hurt and pain on the victims and survivors each time they open their mouths with their selective memories and their forked tongues. Tonight was no different. Ms Ruane, in her opening speech, wanted to be selective and to confine the debate to murders that may involve collusion between our security forces only. Ms Ruane, I have a message for you: we will not let you. You and your colleagues are living in a world of denial. We will not allow that to take place. We will not allow you to do that, and we will make sure that, if it is the last thing we do, the truth will come out.”
“Will the junior Minister encourage everyone in the House, even members of her own party, to come forward with all information that they know on sex offenders and offences against children?”