Paul Frew
North Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for that intervention. Nevertheless, there are concerns that I want to address. The Minister and the departmental officials will know that, even from the range of questions that I have asked. We need to make sure that we get the balance correct.”
“In the written and oral evidence received then, the Committee was advised of potential amendments that the Minister may table at Consideration Stage, including an amendment to remove the commissioner that is being considered in liaison with OLC.”
“That in itself causes some victims and witnesses bother, because they are in a system that they are not part of, which means that they do not get the support that they require. That can sometimes leave them feeling retraumatised, as though they have been put through the wringer again.”
“The Bill makes provision to offer those protections and provide clarity to victims that they do not have to face their perpetrator in court. <BR /> <BR />Members asked questions about a range of matters, including the independence of the office, the ability to review the performance of any future commissioner, the costs of establishing th…”
“I thank the Minister for her intervention. She was absolutely right to take that action, as it means that victims' voices are right at the heart of the matters under discussion. It is now obvious to us that that should have been done years ago, but it is good that it is being done now.”
“Officials explained that the Bill would legislate on the disclosure regime not to prevent an application for disclosure but to set out a process whereby the defence would have to show the relevance of the information that it was requesting. That is an important protection.”
The complete record
Every one of 3,736 lines we hold for Paul Frew, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 27 of 75.
“For far too long, our health service workers and personnel have been let down by whistle-blowing legislation. It does not work, and we need an individual duty of candour to empower those workers. <BR /> <BR />Applying a duty of candour and then applying a criminal liability for a breach of the duty to be open and truthful, we believe, empowers the individuals in the health service who could well come under intense pressure from senior staff or line management to hide or keep secret actions that have had a detrimental effect on people's health if such a liability and responsibility was not in place. We also believe that there is currently a stigma attached when people speak out or whistle-blow, with fear of suspensions or retribution, and that must be overcome.”
“I thank the Member for his contribution, and he makes a valid point about Lynsey. The ombudsman's report says:”
“That report was published for the year 2023-24.”
“<BR /> <BR />It is not just about the past; it is about the future. The 2023-24 report by the Northern Ireland Public Services Ombudsman (NIPSO) says:”
“<BR /> <BR />A health system that should have openness, truth and transparency at its heart has the opposite. I wish I were standing here with faith in the Department of Health, but that faith is shot. It is shot because mourning the loss of a loved one is so difficult, but to have to then fight for the truth for three decades is unbearable. If the Department of Health does not introduce legislation on this, I will. I have been working on a private Member's Bill to bring in an individual duty of candour. I give this commitment: I will work with Nuala and Danny and the Alliance Party, and with Pat and Sinn Féin, and we will try our best to get legislation that serves the population and our healthcare workers and brings openness, truth and transparency to the heart of our health service.”
“I think of Adam Strain, Lucy Crawford, Raychel Ferguson, Conor Mitchell and Claire Roberts: children at the centre of the O'Hara report. Alan and Jennifer Roberts, Claire's mum and dad, are with us today. I think of Conan McIlwrath, vice chair of the UK Haemophilia Society, and Nigel Hamilton, chairperson of Haemophilia Northern Ireland, who sits in the Public Gallery. I think of the Ladies With Letters and those 17,500 women. I think of Erin Harbinson and Lynsey Courtney, who also lost their lives. I think of the inquiries into Muckamore Abbey Hospital, neurology and urology. Northern Ireland has had the need for too many public inquiries, given the fact that we are such a small jurisdiction. Too many times, the promises to learn lessons have not been fulfilled.”
“Does the SDLP not agree with the O'Hara report?”
“I will make a very quick intervention. Does the SDLP not agree with O'Hara?”
“Despite the pressures on public-sector pay, the Minister stated that she made no allocations to the budget of her Finance Department. Why not?”
“The board has already stripped away 18 of those projects, yet, when the Committee for Finance asks for letters and correspondence from Jayne Brady, head of that transformation board, to the Minister, the scrutiny Committee is denied access to and sight of that correspondence.”
“Only a matter of weeks ago, we saw the Economy Minister introducing RHI regulations, and the cry from every other party in this place was that they did not have enough detail or enough of the evidence required to make the decisions and vote positively for that legislation. We have had the Justice Minister bring half a Bill to the scrutiny Committee and the Assembly. The Minister has not given the Committee all the clauses that she intends to put in the Bill, yet she expects the scrutiny Committee to scrutinise the Bill — half a Bill. It seems that we have learnt nothing from the inquiry, and the Audit Office report proves that succinctly. <BR /> <BR />Also in the Department of Finance, an interim transformation board is advising the Minister on how it allocates £235 million of available funds over a five-year period.”
“Thank you, Principal Deputy Speaker. Yes, I concur that there are failings here, and the failures continue. This is not just something that happened in the past where failure was identified and we have drawn a line under it. We continue every day to see failure in this place. Every day. <BR /> <BR />I will go to two of the recommendations. Recommendation 39 states:”
“One month later, the information and data is absent. Where is the information?”
“the Department of Finance report in March 2024. Here is a report that the Department of Finance produced in March, yet the Audit Office, mere months later, cannot get access to those details and records. That is damning. <BR /> <BR />Paragraph 22 states:”
“In paragraph 21, the Audit Office wishes to draw attention to the fact that the:”
“The Audit Office is challenging the Department of Finance's own findings, The Audit Office assessed:”
“In paragraph 19, the Audit Office states:”
“<BR /> <BR />The Audit Office report is damning, and there is a fear that its findings will not get covered adequately in the debate. I will therefore place on record what the Audit Office report states.”
“The following point has been missing from this debate so far. It is important to note that there are many hard-working individuals in the Northern Ireland Civil Service who contribute daily and substantially to society, but they, just like everyone else, are being failed, and the Northern Ireland Civil Service is in serious need of reform and modernisation. When we get an Audit Office report such as this one, the Assembly needs to sit up and take notice. Although the Finance Minister has had a difficult job since she took up her post, not taking notice is one of her biggest weaknesses. I believe that her Department is letting her down badly in that regard. We therefore need strong leadership in ministerial positions in order to get a grip on the situation.”
“I thank the Member for giving way and for his dialogue and demeanour. He talks about the Committee finishing its work more quickly. Surely the Member knows that that will be completely and utterly dependent on the Minister providing the clauses of the Bill earlier.”
“What services are currently provided to tackle homelessness in North Antrim?”
“In reply to my colleague Diane Forsythe, Minister, you clarified that you did not think that any further Treasury support would be able to be availed of by the voluntary and third sectors. Given the impact that the rise in employer rate National Insurance contributions will have on our businesses and employers, I also think about GP surgeries. What further support can the Finance Minister give to GP surgeries, as GPs may well be contemplating handing in their medical licences now?”
“I am also concerned about when the Minister will introduce the sentencing Bill. Can she reassure the House that it will not be half a Bill?”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. I was going to ask her when she will publish the missing parts of her Justice Bill.”
“I have run out of time. I commend our amendment to the House, and I thank the House for supporting both amendments.”
“I must place that on record before my time is up. <BR /> <BR />Alan Robinson, who moved our amendment, explained what happens when families move to another trust area, and he outlined the reasons for the DUP amendment. He talked about the £5·8 billion a year that carers are saving the health service, the estimated value of unpaid care in the Northern Trust and the Western Trust being £1·3 billion and £800 million a year respectively.”
“She mentioned the issue of children attaining adulthood and losing respite provision in the transition from child services to adult services. That is a mighty thing. She called on the Minister to develop a comprehensive plan. <BR /> <BR />Colin McGrath said that the debate was timely. He said that he proposed the amendment with children in mind and that it was children-focused, and we can see that in the text. He related experiences of PSNI interventions and explained why those are usually the wrong interventions. Regrettably, however, they are the only ones. The PSNI is picking up the pieces inappropriately, but it is trying to do the best that it can. <BR /> <BR />One thing that came up across the piece is the diligent work and commitment of the people who provide respite and care for the carers.”
“Linda Dillon told us about carers being informed at short notice that their respite was cancelled. Think of the devastation caused to carers who are so focused on caring for their loved ones but who know that, at the end of a week or two weeks, they will get respite, not just for them but for the person for whom they are caring, only for that to be taken away instantly with no concept of when that respite will be picked up again. Those people may have been waiting for that respite for a year. That is truly devastating, and it will tip people who are already in despair over the edge. <BR /> <BR />Linda Dillon said that there needs to be an emergency respite plan for people who fall on hard times or end up having an accident and have to go to hospital themselves. She said that support provision must follow the family even when they move.”
“It is absolutely clear that that false economy is leading to more casualties and more patients with carers who are burnt out. It is as if we cannot see that. Then, we wonder why people are rocking up to our health estate needing beds in our wards because they cannot cope. When that tragedy happens, what happens to the person for whom that carer was caring? We are multiplying carnage upon carnage. Transforming Your Care: do Members remember that? It has become "Destroying Your Health". That is the stark message that we should take away from the debate. In that regard, we need not only reform but radical change. <BR /> <BR />I will sum up some of the contributions to the debate. I will not get through them all, but I will deal with the proposers of the motion and the amendments.”
“Given what the health estate, our services and our health trusts provide, the pressure on them is mighty, yet it is nearly as if we have completely forgotten about all those people whom we removed from a hospital setting to the home setting. It is as if we have left their families in despair.”
“Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I have listened to the debate, and it was truly heartbreaking. The saying that comes into my head repeatedly as I hear the experiences being recounted throughout the Chamber is, "Be kind, for you do not know what battles people are fighting". Whilst we say it quite often, there is no way in which we can measure the depth of despair or the battles that those people are fighting. That is heartbreaking for a number of reasons, and not just on an individual level. Since my political career began, and especially since I became a full-time politician in 2010, the health system has moved to become one where we keep people at home longer.”
“There will be a prize at the end of that: the enabling clause for baby loss certificates. The House should and will support that. My party, the DUP, has pushed for that, and I am so glad that the Minister and the Committee for Finance have adopted that position. I thank the Minister and record my gratitude for her activity in that regard. I thank the members of the GRO who came to the Committee when requested to do so and fronted up on all of that. I record my gratitude to them also. <BR /> <BR />I recognise the work that the Finance Minister and the GRO have put in. I look forward to seeing primary legislation that includes the enabling clause for baby loss certificates. Hopefully, the House can pass a Bill that is of good worth and that will make a real difference to people out there, especially those who lose loved ones.”
“<BR /> <BR />In less than two hours' time, in the Long Gallery, there will be about 100 people who have been damaged by the measures of the Coronavirus Act. That time will soon be known forever as a period of shame for the Department of Health and the zombie Assembly at that time. It is good and right that the Minister moves as quickly as possible to disassociate her Department from the Coronavirus Act. I note the commitment from the Minister and the GRO. I know that their destiny has not been their own in this regard, despite the promises that were made six months ago. <BR /> <BR />The silver lining to the fact that we have to further extend the legislation is that it will bring primary legislation that can be scrutinised by the House in the proper way.”
“I recall the previous extension order, six months ago — the Coronavirus Act 2020 (Registration of Deaths and Still-Births) (Extension) Order (Northern Ireland) 2024 — and the commitments, promises and reassurances that were given to the House at that time. Unfortunately, those commitments and reassurances counted for nothing with regard to the procedures that were adopted and promised at that time. I understand how it took place and why that happened, and I am fully supportive of these measures being contained in primary legislation. They are valid measures that were put in place as a common-sense approach during the pandemic. However, the fact is that those common-sense measures are still wrapped up in coronavirus legislation that has caused massive damage to our people.”
“Some in the House, Minister, could accuse you of consulting a duty of candour to death. Is it not now time, Minister, for there to be an individual statutory duty of candour with criminal sanctions for withholding information or misleading the public? How can having a policy and law on telling the truth have a chill factor on an organisation that should have the interests of the population at its heart?”
“Given that the First Minister confirmed that the senior HR officer made a serious omission by not notifying the Sinn Féin leadership about references given for Michael McMonagle and said today that he or she is still a member of Sinn Féin, will there be any disciplinary investigation of that member? How is it consistent that the two press officers have left but that person remains a Sinn Féin member?”
“It is absolutely heartbreaking to hear the pain that that family and all families caught up in that atrocity and the subsequent conflict bear to this day. My heart and my prayers go out to everyone caught up in those activities.”
“We can all talk in stats. We can all talk about historical events. Today, however, I want to remember one of the 97 hostages who remain captive and are still missing: a young lady called Emily Damari, who was 27 when she was captured. She was removed from her kibbutz. I have not met Emily, but I have prayed for her consistently because I have met her mum. That was one of the most impactful things that I have ever experienced. How does Emily's mum feel? I met her six months into Emily's captivity; it has now been a year. They have heard nothing about Emily. They do not know whether she is alive or dead. The intelligence reports from six months ago maintained that she was alive, but I do not know whether those reports say the same thing today. <BR /> <BR />Emily's family spoke at the commemoration services at the Nova music festival today.”
“It changed the mindset of the Israeli state to where we are now.”
“I rise today to remember the events of that terrible day, 7 October, in the state of Israel against the Israeli people. It was a day that changed the world for every single Israeli citizen and every single Palestinian. My heart goes out to those people today. That Hamas attack on innocent civilians of the state of Israel has no comparison with anything that that group did in the past.”
“How confident can the Member be of her statement that there will be no loss of liberty when she has not seen any of the amendments on serious crime?”
“<BR /> <BR />This is about there being six areas of policy that are not in the Bill at the time of Second Reading. That is what worries me, and I warn the House that we will need to be extra vigilant, given that there have been judgements on previous legislation from this Department.”
“Mr Deputy Speaker, it is the Minister who criticises me for doing that on most occasions. She criticises me because my amendment has not been consulted on and because the Department has not formed a view on it. Those are two reasons why you would not support an amendment at Consideration Stage. It is different this time, however, because it is the Minister who is doing it without there being any indication from the Committee that it supports the amendments, that it wants them or that it wants to table anything itself. If I am minded to table an amendment at Consideration Stage, I will do that, but I will also have the good courtesy to show it to the Minister and ask her to adopt it so that she can table it at Consideration Stage. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that practice or that concept.”
“Oh aye, the Minister is putting words into my mouth, Mr Deputy Speaker. I love a good Consideration Stage. I table as many amendments as I possibly can. It is the Minister who criticises me at every opportunity.”
“Again, I remind the Minister of the position in which she and her Department find themselves with regard to the judgement that was previously laid down on a previous Act. I give this warning about how we proceed: it is not good enough for any Minister to say that they will table a multitude of amendments, covering six areas of policy, to a Bill at Consideration Stage. It is not good practice. I will not support that practice. I will call it out at every opportunity I get. I warn the House today.”
“It all sounds very reasonable, but what would be the position of the Alliance Party if any other Department tried to do that? I am standing up for every other Department because it is bad practice, bad law, bad scrutiny, undemocratic and unaccountable.”
“I thank the Member for her contribution, because she leads me on to a valid question: if the Minister cannot give us reasonable notice of when she will table her amendments, what time period should the Committee suggest? You have left the Committee in a very bad place, where it will be unable to get a time frame to scrutinise the new amendments — the amendments that the Minister intends to table at a later stage. That is what is unique about this process and Bill.”
“I will finish my point and then I will give way. <BR /> <BR />That is a point of principled negotiation and agreement between the Committee and the Department. It is not the Minister and the Department saying that they are only going to launch half the Bill at Second Reading and that they will max it out at Consideration Stage. To have that intent at the start of a process is completely and utterly undemocratic and unaccountable, and it does not lend itself to good scrutiny. I will give way.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. Yes, that proves to me that the Minister has not learned anything post judgement, and I worry about that. Why I say that it is unprecedented is this — I was going to explain what I meant. A Committee Stage is very important in the life of a Bill. That is when the Committee scrutinises everything in the Bill, every line, every clause, every Part, even the schedules. It is usually at that point that the Committee communicates with the Department and the Minister and talks to the Department about amendments that the Committee would like to see. At that point, if the Minister is so minded, the Minister and Department will table amendments.”
“Mr Deputy Speaker, I question the Minister on her choice of wording in the House. The Committee has not seen the text, and we are legislators. If MLAs cannot see the text on these blue pages, we cannot do our job properly. It has been said in the House today that it is normal for Departments to clamour to bring amendments to their own Bills. That is unprecedented. At Committee Stage —.”