Paul Frew
North Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for that intervention. Nevertheless, there are concerns that I want to address. The Minister and the departmental officials will know that, even from the range of questions that I have asked. We need to make sure that we get the balance correct.”
“In the written and oral evidence received then, the Committee was advised of potential amendments that the Minister may table at Consideration Stage, including an amendment to remove the commissioner that is being considered in liaison with OLC.”
“That in itself causes some victims and witnesses bother, because they are in a system that they are not part of, which means that they do not get the support that they require. That can sometimes leave them feeling retraumatised, as though they have been put through the wringer again.”
“The Bill makes provision to offer those protections and provide clarity to victims that they do not have to face their perpetrator in court. <BR /> <BR />Members asked questions about a range of matters, including the independence of the office, the ability to review the performance of any future commissioner, the costs of establishing th…”
“I thank the Minister for her intervention. She was absolutely right to take that action, as it means that victims' voices are right at the heart of the matters under discussion. It is now obvious to us that that should have been done years ago, but it is good that it is being done now.”
“Officials explained that the Bill would legislate on the disclosure regime not to prevent an application for disclosure but to set out a process whereby the defence would have to show the relevance of the information that it was requesting. That is an important protection.”
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“I thank the Member for her comments. I commend her for the work that she does on the Policing Board and in other areas and for the work that she has done of late to expose some of the issues that we are debating. She will, no doubt, include a lot of that in her contribution today, and I look forward to hearing it. I commend MLAs who work diligently, work on the detail and scrutinise properly, so I commend the Member for her work in that regard.”
“The Member makes a valid point, but we have to make sure — this is why we are here — that the measures that we introduce for disciplinary processes and punishment represent an appropriate, proper and proportionate stance for the House to take. I have no doubt that that will play out in the next couple of hours of debate and then beyond, including at Further Consideration Stage and anything that happens in between. That is why the Department, the Minister and all parties must engage in what is a really important discussion.”
“I will make my point first. <BR /> <BR />When they come across such an incident, we need to make sure that those officers are supported. There have been some great dramas and documentaries on TV over the last number of weeks and months that have highlighted the work of the police to the public, and that should be encouraged. People should be encouraged to watch those programmes. <BR /> <BR />I will give an intervention.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. He is absolutely right about what police officers have to go through daily; for example, the horrific attack that police officers encountered in north Belfast last night. Therefore, we need to ensure that there is support for the police officers and the blue-light services, including the Ambulance Service and the firefighters.”
“I thank the Minister for her intervention and her commitment to work with the DUP and the other parties to make sure that it is proper, robust and good legislation. The matter is of the utmost importance, and, in a perfect world, we would probably have had a Bill only on this. The Minister will know my style with regard to amendments, and it is a vehicle the Minister has used to bring the issue in, and it is topical. It is important, and I commit to working with the Minister in the coming weeks and months.”
“I thank the Member for her intervention. I agree that they should be held to a higher standard because of the nature of their work and the power that they have over us in enforcing the law and investigating crime. I get that, and it is a serious subject. However, the private sector gives privileges and support in retirement that the Police Federation may not be able to provide for retired colleagues, and that needs to be ironed out.”
“<BR /> <BR />The DUP understands that, for some officers whose professionalism and conduct have been called into question after they have retired, it may be beneficial to have misconduct proceedings concluded in order for them to clear their name. However, it must also be weighed up against the implications that making provision for disciplinary proceedings to be instituted against those no longer in service and employment would have for the rights of those individuals, not least in respect of federation and legal support. Additionally, this question must be asked: where else in the public sector is that legislated for? Someone who is retired from the police force loses the services, rights and privileges in being defended but then faces disciplinary action for something that could have happened years before.”
“Therefore, I commend the Minister for her work with the Committee in ensuring that the amendments made it to the Consideration Stage of the Bill and that we can all debate their content. <BR /> <BR />That brings me to amendment No 68, which is a substantial amendment and covers three full pages of vast, dense text and detail, and it is really hard to get our heads around it. I understand the detail. I understand where the Minister is coming from and why she has moved in that way. I also believe that we need some way to ensure that disciplinary matters can be investigated and brought to light, even in circumstances where officers have retired.”
“It is about making sure that the constabularies throughout the United Kingdom are aligned and have parallel information that they can share to ensure that someone who applies for a transfer or to be recruited to the Police Service is properly vetted and attested and that everyone has confidence, even the management in the police, that those people are appropriate and are worthy of serving the people of Northern Ireland in that way. <BR /> <BR />It is important that it applies not just to the PSNI. Most people will not realise that we have other law enforcement agencies that cover different things, such as airports and ports, and we have the Policing Board. It is important that there is a holistic approach to dealing with barred lists and advisory lists.”
“While the Committee cannot have a position on the amendments because of the time frame, we are more than comfortable with that arrangement and with the amendments and the bringing in of the police barred list and police advisory list. Those are critical, because we live in a place where people move about. Therefore, there are issues whereby, for whatever reason, people leave constabularies in England and Wales and come over here and vice versa. People in that line of work who have that trade might well travel elsewhere.”
“I thank the Minister for that intervention and for her words. I echo the point about ensuring that we retain and maintain that professionalism as the Police Service serves all the people of Northern Ireland, keeping them safe, investigating crime and bringing people to justice. We are debating really important stuff here today. <BR /> <BR />I commend the Minister — I am making a habit of that — with regard to the barred and advisory lists. The Committee asked that of her, and she has tabled the amendments that will bring in those lists.”
“The police force in Northern Ireland — the PSNI — is heavily scrutinised and regulated, not least in this place and through legislation, but by the Policing Board. That makes Northern Ireland and the PSNI unique. I will not address all the historical caveats and the journeys that we have been on with regard to the PSNI and the Royal Ulster Constabulary before it. The bravery of our Police Service must, however, be put on record: the bravery of police officers and their families, of people who serve in what is now the PSNI, but also of the people who served in the Royal Ulster Constabulary at a time when they were under threat not only in their place of work and in the course of the service that they provided but at home, when they were off duty.”
“That was welcomed by Committee members. We appreciate the Minister's commitment to closing that gap. It was also welcomed that the provisions are not limited to the PSNI but extend to the other relevant bodies here. The Committee did not have sight of the text of the amendments during its consideration of the Bill, however, so, although the Committee sought the provision, we were not able to take a formal position on amendment Nos 69, 127 and 131. <BR /> <BR />I will now speak on these matters as an individual MLA and DUP spokesperson on justice. Police misconduct and discipline are vital for a number of reasons: to keep people safe, but also to ensure that confidence in policing is increased, or that what confidence there is can be maintained. The subject matter that we are debating today is critical.”
“A subsequent update from the Department in October 2025 informed the Committee that provision for the barred and advisory lists for the PSNI would no longer be included in the Bill by way of an amendment. That was hugely concerning, as the use of those lists would be important to improve confidence in policing and could assist with safeguarding issues. The Committee therefore agreed to ask the Minister whether there would be scope to bring the provisions forward via an amendment to the Justice Bill or as part of either of the two other pieces of primary legislation that were planned for the mandate. In late October, the Minister advised that it was her intention to bring forward an amendment to the Justice Bill to make provision for barred and advisory lists for all law enforcement bodies in Northern Ireland.”
“Capacity constraints in the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel meant that the lists would apply only to the PSNI and not to other relevant bodies in Northern Ireland such as the Policing Board, the Police Ombudsman, the harbour police and the international airport constabulary.”
“In June 2025, the Committee was advised that provision to create barred and advisory lists may be included in a second legislative consent motion on the Crime and Policing Bill at Westminster.”
“While the Committee had asked for police misconduct regulations to be explored, we did not have sight of the amendment during Committee Stage and, therefore, do not have an agreed position on it. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 69, together with the new schedule at amendment No 127, deals with the establishment of barred and advisory lists for Northern Ireland. Amendment No 131 is a consequential amendment to update the long title. <BR /> <BR />The Minister has set out the purpose of the barred and advisory lists, so I will not repeat that. The Committee had asked the Minister to consider bringing forward the creation of barred and advisory lists by way of an amendment to the Bill.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Department confirmed that the regulatory framework within which the misconduct process operates was being considered. The Department said that it was engaging with key stakeholders, and it was expected that any changes on those matters would require primary or secondary legislation. The Department also later confirmed that the Minister had taken on board the results of a targeted consultation on police misconduct that had closed in October 2025 and would progress the issue of former officer misconduct via amendments to the Justice Bill. It also advised that other legislative changes to the framework would be made via secondary legislation by way of amendment to the Police (Conduct) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2016.”
“As part of the evidence on the Bill, the Committee received a submission from the Northern Ireland Policing Board (NIPB). In the submission, the board advised that, while it is not part of the Bill, it would welcome a review of current police misconduct regulations. The board said that a review could identify improvements in the use of existing legislative provision that would enable police misconduct cases to be progressed expeditiously. A review could look at issues such as vetting procedures, how misconduct hearings are conducted, criminal proceedings against police officers and the use of regulation 13, which deals with the dismissal of officers during probation. The Committee welcomed that submission from the board and followed it up by writing to the Department to seek information on any work to review the misconduct regulations.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I am really enjoying his speech, but, on a technicality, I will do that activity not as Chair of the Justice Committee but as DUP spokesperson. Although I happen to be the Chair, all the work that I will do over the summer with the Minister and the Department will be done as a DUP spokesperson, lest anybody on the Committee think that I am going off on a solo run.”
“You have. I thank the Member for that. There are people who do this through choice who have a small, select group of clients, and then there are people who, if they were to advertise digitally, would go worldwide. It is putting women, even those who do it by choice, in immense danger, because they do not know who will walk through their door. It is therefore responsible to prevent the advertising of sexual services.”
“There will always be a consequence to any law — there will always be cause and effect — and we have to be mindful of that, but the balance here is that we prevent someone from advertising sexual services in the hope that we protect all those people, who are mostly women, who are involved in selling sexual services, and also we try to stop people being held in captivity who are vulnerable, who are coerced, who are slaves and who have to sell their bodies because a pimp told them to. That is what we are trying to deal with in this amendment.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. This is a really important debate, and we should all treat it with respect, because we are dealing with real people and their real-life dilemmas. Even someone who offers sexual services by choice is in extreme danger and at risk. You are saying that we are in danger of penalising or hurting someone who offers sexual services, but all that we are talking about here is the advertising of sexual services. We are not criminalising anyone who does sexual services; that has been set since Lord Morrow's day and is something that we welcomed and pushed hard for.”
“What does he mean by "misuse" of that law?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I was waiting to see whether he had finished his commentary on those two amendments, and maybe he had a wee bit more to add, but I thank him for taking an intervention at this stage. <BR /> <BR />When he talks about "misuse" of the power, is he talking about the PSNI, or is he talking about shopkeepers who might ring the PSNI? There could well be issues relating to the behaviour around begging or rough sleeping. Whilst it is not those people's fault or problem, it can have a negative impact on another person's life, such as someone who lives or works in a particular property. The police have outlined that they think that there will be a gap if we repeal the vagrancy law on its own. Is the Member going against the police and the information that they have given us?”
“I thank Jon for giving way. We have passed other laws in the House, including the child protection disclosure scheme, which was the result of an amendment that I tabled to another Justice Bill. The police seem very slow in advertising to parents and others out there that the child protection disclosure scheme is available for them to apply to for information on people who could be a risk to their children. The police do not seem to want to advertise that.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. She is on the exact same page as I am and, indeed, as the Minister is. I have no doubt about that. There is no issue with amendment No 88 with regard to what it does with the various orders. That is sound. The issue is in the wording of amendment No 89 and the definition used to describe domestic abuse. That is the issue that we have to get round. I have given the commitment to the Minister, and I will give the same commitment to you: I will work as diligently as I can with Department and the Minister to try to resolve that issue so that the spirit of the amendment exists and stays as it is but we make it fit our model of legislation.”
“New paragraph (c) will bring an animal into that. That is really important, and I thank the Minister for acknowledging it. <BR /> <BR />These will be important new laws. The Justice Bill is the vehicle that my party has used to bring in those laws. I joked last Tuesday that I love a good amendment, and that is the case. I think that the Minister would acknowledge that I have exploited that licence to its extreme. I apologise to no one, however, because I am in this place to make good law that will improve our people's lives by protecting them, their children and their animals. I commend the amendments to the House and ask Members to consider supporting them.”
“by the applicant or the relevant child. That, too, is important. There must not be a loophole where the victim does not own the animal. It might be owned by a son or daughter. Whilst they might not necessarily be the direct victims of the coercive control, they might well be a victim as a child of the direct victim, and their animals might well be, too. Of course, whether it is you or your child who owns and cares for that animal, you will react in the same way. Article 13, "One former spouse with no existing right to occupy", is the same with regard to an animal, as is article 14, "One cohabitee or former cohabitee with no existing right to occupy". Article 20 states that a "non-molestation order" includes:”
“Article 11, "Occupation orders where applicant has estate, etc. or has matrimonial home rights", states:”
“<BR /> <BR />I was going to get into case studies, but every single one of us will know about it, having seen and heard it for themselves through their constituency work, so I do not think that I need to do so. We know that it is a live issue and problem, and it is up to us to legislate on it. <BR /> <BR />I will talk to amendment No 88 on "Domestic abuse involving threats or harm to animals: amendment of Family Homes and Domestic Violence (Northern Ireland) Order 1998". The Minister is quite right in saying that that does not necessarily fall into her purview or responsibility and that it falls to the Department of Finance in many ways. However, in amendment No 88, I outline all the articles in that Order that, I think, need to be changed in order to recognise in law the animals aspect.”
“We have seen in reports that have been published, even in the past couple of months, that people love their horses. They are involved in sports with horses. Therefore, it is really important that this encapsulates all animals, including farm animals. We know that farmers live daily for their livestock and for their animals. So, if they are threatened in any shape or form, they will do whatever they need to do to ensure the safety of that animal. That is why it is really important that we somehow get this into law so that we recognise that aspect of coercive control and that we legislate for it appropriately after everything that I have said about engagement with the Minister.”
“We all see people daily who we suspect or know are victims of domestic abuse and coercive control. Dealing with those people is really hard. Every one of us as MLAs will give as much support as we possibly can to those people. I know that people, as is human nature, love their animals as they love their children. In many cases, if there are no children in the home, the animal is treated like a child, and it should be in many respects. We know how damaging it can be when a perpetrator who is controlling you at every level and is perpetrating domestic violence against you then threatens your animal. <BR /> <BR />It does not necessarily need to be a cat or a dog or another domestic animal that is a pet. It can be any animal that is under your care, supervision or control. That is why it is so important that this does not just cover pets.”
“I am mightily obliged to all those organisations for the help that they have given me. They are asking that MLAs support these amendments. Those provisions will have a significant and practical impact by formally recognising how animals are used in coercive control and by strengthening legal protections. The amendments explicitly define harm —. I do not think that we will get to that point. They will extend non-molestation and occupation orders so that courts can prohibit abusers from harming, threatening or interfering with animals and will consider the welfare of animals alongside adults and children when deciding housing and safety orders. <BR /> <BR />I could — I suspect that we all could — give a multitude of examples of this from our constituencies.”
“I thank the Minister for that intervention and that commitment. She will know that I am sincere when I say that the Department, the Minister and I will work hard together to address any concerns that the Department has. I hope that Members opposite and everywhere else in the Chamber will acknowledge the engagement and the work that has been done already between me, my party, my colleagues and the Minister and the Department on the amendments and will take that into consideration when they eventually vote on them. <BR /> <BR />These amendments recognise that behaviour as a form of domestic abuse and allow courts to protect animals through existing civil protection orders. They are supported by the Links Group, Dogs Trust and Cats Protection as well as Tara Cunningham's Causeway Coast Dog Rescue.”
“So, I give the commitment that I will work with the Minister and the Department to try to correct that in the wording of amendment No 89 if those two amendments are passed. I give way to the Minister.”
“I give this commitment to the House, the Minister and the Department: I will work with the Minister on the concerns that she has outlined about section 2 of the Domestic Abuse and Civil Proceedings Act (Northern Ireland) 2021. There is a rationale, as the Minister outlined, for why we left the law as we did. I was all over that law at the time. I scrutinised it in Committee. The Minister will know that. I recognise the dangers of explicitly describing a certain aspect of coercive control and domestic violence.”
“The proposed amendments aim to recognise the use of companion animals as a tool of coercion and control, enable pets to be considered in protective orders, remove the known barrier preventing victims from leaving abusive environments and strengthen safeguards in line with the Executive's ending violence against women and girls strategic framework. <BR /> <BR />Evidence shows that animal abuse is present in 88% to 91% of domestic abuse cases and is often a precursor to escalating violence. Despite that, the current legislation does not explicitly address that form of harm. We have a problem when it comes to explicitly dealing with that form of harm. The Minister has outlined the issue to me.”
“That is why we passed the laws that we did in the Domestic Abuse and Civil Proceedings Act (Northern Ireland) 2021. No victim should be forced to choose between their safety and the safety of their animals, so that would be a proportionate and necessary step. <BR /> <BR />The targeted proposals are to strengthen domestic abuse legislation by explicitly recognising harm or threats of harm to companion animals as a form of coercive control. That reflects clear and growing evidence of the link between animal abuse and domestic abuse particularly impacting on women, children and vulnerable families.”
“<BR /> <BR />The question is not whether domestic abuse law exists: it does. We have some really good domestic abuse law. The question is whether it works in the reality of every instance and whether we can improve it. Ruby's law does not create new offences; it provides clarity in existing protection orders, ensuring that the law can respond preventatively where animals are used in coercive control. It supports victims and children and first responders by giving them the legal framework to act at the point of intervention, not after harm has occurred. It is a small but significant step in ensuring that victims are not forced to choose between their safety and the safety of their pets or animals. We know about the scale of domestic abuse. We recognise coercive control, and we understand how it operates in practice.”
“<BR /> <BR />We also know through evidence from the Links Group that 91% of victims of domestic abuse live in households with animals. Causeway Coast Dog Rescue states that many of the victims whom it supports surrender animals of less than one year old because they have nowhere to go. I drafted my amendments with my colleagues and Tara Cunningham of the Causeway Coast Dog Rescue, who was a great help, along with the Links Group, Cats Protection, Dogs Trust and Women's Aid, which all support the calls in our amendments. They have been informed by the research of Dr Mary Wakeham and the legal expertise of barrister Christina Warner, who is a family law specialist and the founder of the Ruby's law campaign, reflecting real cases in which that gap in protection has been clearly identified.”
“Official figures from the Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency (NISRA) show that 30,203 domestic abuse incidents and 18,453 domestic abuse crimes were recorded in the year to September 2025. Accounting for almost one in five crimes, that is more than 80 incidents every day, with the police responding every 16 minutes, rising to around 100 call-outs per day during peak periods. However, those figures represent only part of the picture. NISRA makes it clear that they are likely an underestimation. I think that we all know, as does anyone in the field of justice with an interest in the area, that that is an underestimation. There are so many people out there who, for a multitude of reasons, have not come forward or sought help.”
“The Member makes a valuable contribution. As legislators, we have to be agile in the battles out there. It is a battleground, and people are being damaged and hurt every hour of the day. This is a war, and we should counter it as such, because people are being damaged or destroyed every day. It is important that we recognise the scale of it, get to grips with it and put in place laws that are robust enough to combat it. I therefore commend amendment No 78 to the House. <BR /> <BR />I move on to amendment Nos 88 and 89, which are on domestic abuse involving animals. Domestic abuse is one of the most serious safeguarding challenges that we face in Northern Ireland.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention, lengthy as it was. He made an important point. I nearly forgot that I had the Floor, because Brian was taking so long, but I thank him. While I jest, he made really important points and will, I know, speak on them at greater length. <BR /> <BR />I commend the amendment to the House and ask all parties and all Members to support it. It is the next step in the fight — the war — against the trafficking and exploitation of our most vulnerable.”
“I thank the Minister for that intervention. That critical information will, hopefully, be broadcast throughout the Province and will inform people about the support that is out there. <BR /> <BR />My colleague Brian Kingston wanted to come in.”
“I will in a wee second. <BR /> <BR />Even though it was only 10 years ago, the advancements in technology and the growth of this evil have been incomprehensible. All those years ago, when we debated the issue, none of us envisaged just how large the problem would become. Now we are left in a situation where there are so many victims in Northern Ireland who are living desperate lives and are in need of rescue. It is up to us to make sure that our laws are the best that they can be in order to do that. <BR /> <BR />I thank the Member for her intervention. The Minister wanted to come in.”
“In many ways, what we are doing here is building on his legacy in what is now a digital age.”
“I thank the Member for raising that, because it is a really important issue. There are people who do it by choice. I think that there is a better way in life and in society. However, as Lord Morrow did in his cutting-edge Bill all those years ago, I want to put that question at the heart of our debate, whereby we do all that we can to support the people who are at the front edge of this. I have no sympathy for pimps or people who organise others to take part in sexual activities, but I understand completely what the Member says about the people who are conducting the activity. I recognise that some people are doing it by choice. The police, the law enforcement agencies and the courts can and should take such things into consideration. <BR /> <BR />I pay tribute to Lord Morrow, who was the person who started the work on this.”
“I thank the Member for that intervention. In all examples that we give and all opportunities that we have in the House, we should acknowledge that anyone who has been exploited, trafficked, held in captivity or forced to do any activity against their will, including sex, needs to be supported. The police need to reach into those activities in the darkest corners of our Province, streets and towns, so that those people can be found, rescued and supported to recover and get justice.”
“The Assembly needs to make better provision for those who have been exploited, and Westminster needs to make the necessary regulations to ensure that Ofcom can enforce the necessary court orders against the owners of those websites and shut them down for good. The amendment, however, represents the first step in what we can do as an Assembly. Whilst it will not fully solve the problem, it at least ensures that Northern Ireland sends a signal to criminal gangs and platform owners that we will not tolerate the infrastructure of trafficking and exploitation here.”