Paul Frew
North Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for that intervention. Nevertheless, there are concerns that I want to address. The Minister and the departmental officials will know that, even from the range of questions that I have asked. We need to make sure that we get the balance correct.”
“In the written and oral evidence received then, the Committee was advised of potential amendments that the Minister may table at Consideration Stage, including an amendment to remove the commissioner that is being considered in liaison with OLC.”
“That in itself causes some victims and witnesses bother, because they are in a system that they are not part of, which means that they do not get the support that they require. That can sometimes leave them feeling retraumatised, as though they have been put through the wringer again.”
“The Bill makes provision to offer those protections and provide clarity to victims that they do not have to face their perpetrator in court. <BR /> <BR />Members asked questions about a range of matters, including the independence of the office, the ability to review the performance of any future commissioner, the costs of establishing th…”
“I thank the Minister for her intervention. She was absolutely right to take that action, as it means that victims' voices are right at the heart of the matters under discussion. It is now obvious to us that that should have been done years ago, but it is good that it is being done now.”
“Officials explained that the Bill would legislate on the disclosure regime not to prevent an application for disclosure but to set out a process whereby the defence would have to show the relevance of the information that it was requesting. That is an important protection.”
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“I want to put on record that I welcome the funding towards the hydrogen energy economy project. I believe that that will assist not only in the recovery but in the coming years with regard to the climate emergency and the recovery of industry in my constituency and wider afield in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />Is it not frustrating when we have a large pot of money — £55 million — sitting at the centre that could be used to help to alleviate the pain and suffering of some of our industries that have carried on throughout this COVID emergency, not least the haulage companies and the taxi and coach sectors, who have been penalised further by the Infrastructure Minister's slowness on MOTs, PSVs and licence requirements for drivers?”
“What does her failure to provide the House with the transparency and accountability that is so badly needed and that so badly needs reform say?”
“Our hearts go out today to the victims of these crimes, and they are in our thoughts and prayers. The failures of the NIO, past and present, are of no surprise to any of us in the House. We are here to discuss the here and now, however, Minister, and it is clear from your statement that you were first alerted to the issue on 16 June. Even though departmental officials knew as early as 2019 and even though the PPS contacted DOJ officials again in March 2020, you, as Minister, were informed three months later. Is that because it was convenient for the Justice Minister not to know this? If so, what does that say about the transparency and accountability of this place to Northern Ireland? Then, having been fully informed, the Justice Minister takes a further three months to address the issue in the House.”
“I thank the Minister for her response. This encroaches on the issue of access to justice for many people, and I understand that. Given the fact that some use court as a weapon against an ex-partner by running down their resources and savings, which can hurt and affect children in the short term and long term, is there anything that the Minister's Department and the court processes can do, apart from what she has outlined here, to protect those people who find that their, in many cases, lifelong savings are dwindling? Is the Minister actively looking at her Domestic Abuse and Family Proceedings Bill to try and achieve something in that regard?”
“This is an activity that has blighted the area for many years. It is the case — it is true — that you are asking the police to police living rooms and gardens. Is it not the case that messaging must do the job in order to get compliance? Is that message shot to pieces when the Minister's Sinn Féin Executive colleagues wilfully and brutally flaunt the regulations and do not apologise or take responsibility for doing so? How does the Minister, who is the Justice Minister and a member of the Executive, fix that problem and give a concerted message?”
“How often, when the Department for Infrastructure tweets about planning decisions, does it link the applicant to the tweet? Is the Minister assured, given the issues ongoing with SONI's governance, which is being investigated by the Utility Regulator, that she has been provided with all the relevant information from the applicant and that that information is accurate?”
“Given the fact that I think we all support the review of arm's-length bodies, can the Minister assure the House that he will review governance and transparency in his own Department, and, indeed, the Department's information management policy so that his Department is completely transparent and accountable and so that scrutiny Committees do not have to threaten court action in order to get information?”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. Does the Minister agree that this is a critical aspect of getting support to the people who are most vulnerable? The fact that it has taken the Department so long, and it has not even completed the risk assessments yet, is failing the people who need the support the most. I have spoken to the Department of Justice, which has its court venues open and is waiting for the risk assessments. Will the Minister give the House a commitment that those risk assessments will be completed as soon as possible to allow those most vulnerable people the support that they require?”
“We should be mindful of that when looking at these sentencing laws in relation to assaults. If a nurse or doctor is assaulted and they have to leave their place of work for an hour, that could have massive ramifications for someone's life because that nurse, doctor or healthcare professional is then not there to administer first aid to somebody. That could have massive ramifications and deprive people of their family members and their loved ones. That is something that we should be mindful of when we pass these motions and this legislation.”
“There is a wide range of healthcare workers and people who work in mental health hospitals who have very challenging scenarios to deal with on a daily basis. That all had to play in the mix and should play in the mix. <BR /> <BR />One thing that is important when looking at this is the impact of a crime on an individual, how they suffer pain, how it affects them and the role that they play, their job, their sickness and when they can return to their jobs. Not only that, but the impact on other people if you take somebody out of service. If you assault an ambulance worker or an accident and emergency nurse, doctor or worker and they have to take time off work — even on the night that they are assaulted — that could have ramifications that could mean the death of someone else, indirectly.”
“2) Bill, my amendment for assaults on ambulance workers was successfully passed in the House. That made a difference to those workers who serve the community, help vulnerable people and, at times during their service, fall under circumstances where they are assaulted — some of them very grievously — and damaged in the course of their actions. <BR /> <BR />Mr Blair alluded to the fact that I had a private Member’s Bill in front of the Assembly on the same protections for emergency workers in relation to assaults. That private Member’s Bill proved to be a challenge for a number of reasons, one of them being about who you extend the protection to because social workers also go into people's homes, where they could be vulnerable and could be attacked.”
“To do the right thing by those people would be an enormous benefit and a recognition of the sacrifice of the past. <BR /> <BR />I will speak, if I may, on the other aspect that is bound to be neglected here. We are going to focus on murders. There is no doubt about that, because, obviously, those are the most horrific crimes and loss to families and the biggest sacrifices made. However, there is also an issue around assault and the damaging of people. That goes right across the spectrum of people who serve. It affects nurses and ambulance workers. We have always differentiated between different people's jobs. Our job is to try and find that differential and try to be fair. We have made exceptions for police officers, firefighters and, a number of years ago in the Justice (No.”
“I support my colleagues' very worthy motion. It is reprehensible that our public servants and their families are not given the protection in law that they and their jobs merit. For police officers, soldiers and prison officers, jobs do not begin at 9.00 am and finish at 5.00 pm. Their whole lives are wrapped around protection, worry and sincere measures that they have to put in place to protect themselves and their families, even children, from terrorist threat, as has always been the case here in Northern Ireland. <BR />I suppose there is one thing that I can say to appeal to the party opposite. The party opposite has a horrendous past, like no other party in the House. Whilst we cannot change the past — you cannot change your past — we can make a difference to the future by protecting those people and their families as we go forward.”
“The Member raises a very valid question that we should all be posing to the Minister today. What is the priority? If it is not the haulage companies, after all that they have done for this country and for Northern Ireland plc over the last number of months, what is the priority? Why will the Minister not bring forward a bid for financial support for taxi services, haulage companies and all the other companies that have been let down during the pandemic? That is a question that we have to pose. It is the right of the Assembly and the scrutiny Committee to ask those hard questions of our Ministers. I am glad that the debate is taking place today.”
“It just needs to be moved from an unlocked position to her Department so that she can support those industries.”
“It is not as if we have to raise it or find some mechanism to raise taxes or rates. It is sitting there ready to be used and spent, which is what it is designed to do. Yet, there is a reluctance to support those industries. <BR /> <BR />Why is there a reluctance to do that? Those industries have kept going through thick and thin, providing food and medicines for us. They have looked after their staff, some of whom are very worried about going back to work or being in work because of the COVID-19 situation. Yet, we cannot find it in ourselves — the Executive and the Minister for Infrastructure — to bring forward a bid. Such a bid would not burden the Minister's current financial package — the money that she has at the moment — because that money is sitting here.”
“The haulage companies see that money sitting there. It is not as if we have no money left or that the coffers are dry. The money is sitting there and it is so annoying. <BR /> <BR />Let us forget about "can't do" attitudes. I sit on the Finance Committee and I have chased the Finance Minister up and down the corridors. He has been hit by scandal after scandal but he is looking quite good now in relation to finance for the Minister for Infrastructure. He comes to the House to say that he would like to support those businesses but he is waiting for a bid. Mr Allister made a fundamental point about the way in which the Executive function and perform. That money is sitting here, dropped down from on high as a Barnett consequential, but we cannot even get together to unlock it.”
“No. There is an order and code in the House: when a Members does not give way to other Members, why, then, should she see fit for Members to give way to her? That is a very good principle that we should all remember in the House when giving way. I give way a lot in the House. <BR /> <BR />It is very bad when a party — any party — becomes a defence mechanism for its own Minister and a scrutiny Committee. That makes the Minister look bad. The Finance Minister has come to the House many times. When we have asked him about the £59 million that was sitting here — it is now down to £29 million — to support transport that cannot be unlocked to give support to the haulage companies, the Finance Minister says, "Where is the bid? I am waiting for a bid. That bid has not come". Why has that bid not come?”
“The one thing that the House needs to ensure is that the scrutiny Committees in this place work efficiently and effectively.”
“Those haulage companies have had to work through thick and thin, looking after their own staff and their own lorry drivers and their health and safety, trying to get from A to B, with all these drastic barriers put in place, and they still fulfil their orders and their commitment to the people of Northern Ireland. Would it not be great if we could say that about the Executive and some of our Ministers, who have been slow to react? In the middle of this crisis, when so much good has been done, we still have Ministers who have a can't-do attitude. That is not good enough. <BR /> <BR />I think it was Mrs Kelly who made a comment about Committees being of one voice. You cannot have it both ways. You either want a scrutiny Committee or you do not. You either want to get into the hard detail or you do not.”
“I have listened to the debate. Although I am outside the Committee for Infrastructure, I am, nonetheless, very supportive of any Committee that identifies a problem and tries to deal with it in a very constructive way. If that means bringing a motion to the House, so be it. We all can debate it, and I am very thankful to the proposer and to the Committee for highlighting the issue in the Chamber. <BR /> <BR />What I know, as an MLA for North Antrim, is that haulage companies have been dramatically and drastically let down. If haulage companies had had the same attitude as some of our Ministers — a can't-do attitude — where would we all be with regard to supplies of food and medicine?”
“That is a strange one, Mr Deputy Speaker, where you have made a ruling on an intervention and an intervener. I say to the Member who kindly granted the intervention that, at least in a Committee setting, we are able to get all interest groups and arts and parts to have a debate about the subject and make sure that the legislation is clear and concise.”
“I agree with the Member about accelerated passage. We do not need any legislation going through —.”
“It has to be done quickly and assuredly. So, yes, I agree with the Member 100%. <BR /> <BR />I have taken a lot of interventions, even from the other side of the House. It is maybe a record, I do not know, This is a very important Bill for our people, our Government and our businesses. It needs to be sufficiently resourced so that decisions can be taken quickly. That is something that we have not been able to do of late. I welcome the day when that will be the case. I support the principles of the Bill and look forward to its other stages where we can get into a debate, maybe with fewer interventions and interruptions, I do not know. However, let us look forward to that.”
“I agree. We have gone right back to the St Andrews Agreement. Again, everything is threaded through everything. Although the Bill may put in place a power and a responsibility for one Department and one Minister, surely the best thing for Northern Ireland is a joined-up Executive making decisions as one, with one focus in one direction, with their decisions being populated by a Programme for Government, and all the other arts and parts of strategy that we have adopted over the years that have to be renewed over the coming weeks and months of the rest of this mandate. That is what should be in the mindset of a Minister making a planning decision, no matter it might be: does it fit the criteria, does it fit the policy? If it does, yes, we should pass it; if it does not, we should refuse it. That is safe, intelligent decision-making.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I agree 100%, and I agree with your ruling that the principles and the outworking of the Bill should be that we have a planning system and a decision-making process that are safe and sound and will deliver for Northern Ireland.”
“The Member has hit on another critical point: our water and waste sewerage systems, which are, quite honestly, antiquated. There is talk about putting it on the developer, but that will not solve the issue, because, even on the development side of a planning application, it will only help to sort out the pipes and the drains at that point. They will run into smaller, more antiquated, drains further down the system.”
“Remember that all those projects — whether the North/South interconnector, rail or road networks, buildings, businesses, wind farms or power plants — create work.”
“<BR /> <BR />Whether or not Buick comes into it, whether or not the Bill comes into it, it is very important that the Minister makes sound decisions. SONI has said that we need the interconnector for security of supply, when we do not need it for security of supply. It is very important that, when a decision is made by the Minister or by local planners, the decision is sound. I am not convinced that that is the case, so I look forward to seeing the Bill go through its stages so that we can interrogate it more. When we look at this, there may well be tweaks and turns required in the Bill, but so be it. We have to make sure that we come out the other side with good-quality legislation that is fit for purpose, helps business and, as the Member said, helps infrastructure and growth in this country.”
“<BR /> <BR />When we go to make planning decisions on wind farms and grid infrastructure, surely we need to see in a blueprint somewhere that it is actually required. If it is not needed, why do we pass it, when it is going to cost Northern Ireland consumers money? Why would you pass something like that if it is going to cost us money in the long term and it is not actually required? That brings me back to my point about the North/South interconnector, which is one of the biggest single issues that the Infrastructure Minister will have to make a decision on, probably in this mandate. Yet are we clear that the Infrastructure Minister has all the information that she and the Executive require to make that decision, and the right rationale for making it?”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. It is great to have the opportunity to speak in the House about these important issues, but you know something, it is all linked, it is all tied in together. There is no point having a strategy for this and a strategy for that and not being able to join them together in a Programme for Government, and then having your Infrastructure Minister abide by that Programme for Government to produce good, sound, decent planning legislation and decisions. That is what we are talking about here and what part of the Bill is about. That is why we have to make sure that the legislation is passed: to give the Infrastructure Minister the sound basis on which good decisions can be made.”
“It will go to a greenfield site in another province, or in another part of the UK, Europe or the world. <BR /> <BR />That is not where we need to be. We need to have a slick operative machine that makes sound decisions quickly and informatively, and we need that now. Delay is costing this country millions and it is costing this country jobs, and that is a place where we cannot be. <BR /> <BR />To go back to my point about strategy: we have been told over the last number of weeks, even in the Economy Committee, that the energy strategy will be delayed further.”
“I thank the Member for his interjection. Of course the Member seeks joined-up government and a joined-up Executive where we are all pushing the same way, where there is a Programme for Government that is fit for this Province. We await those decisions and we await those days. <BR /> <BR />It should not be the case, if we have a focused Programme for Government and we have aligned our planning strategy with so many of our other strategies, that that should not take place. It should be the case that one Department is opposed to another, and then another makes a decision on planning. That is not a place where we would like to be and it is a bad place for business. If a business sees friction between Departments, with no clear vision or focus, of course it will go somewhere else.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. He has hit on a massive point. Some of the consultees treat some of the applications to flippant responses, which take ages to come through. That then builds on delay. That is not the Planning Service's fault, the Infrastructure Minister's fault or the local government planning services' fault, because there is a process to go through, and if they do not follow it, they could end up being challenged. That is a massive plank in planning law at the present time. However, if you have any uncertainty about that system or any shred of doubt about the process, you will probably end up being challenged and in court, and —.”
“There will be good employment opportunities there, but do you know something? The Planning Service is far too slow. It will not engage with me. It will not give any commitments for support or for planning", and that is a —.”
“Yes, I do, and that is why at every level of the Planning Service and at every level of government, whether it is local government or regional government, Departments have to be in a position to make decisions soundly and quickly. Speed is of the essence, and many of these projects need that, especially in the private sector. It is different for public-sector projects, even though they are all very important — I am talking about schools and infrastructure such as roads and railways and the grid — but for the private sector, it is massively important. People from places all over the globe may be looking to set down a plant somewhere and assessing all their options, including this area and that area, and realising, "That is a prime spot. That is a really good spot.”
“Yes, I will, and the North/South interconnector is one of the biggest decisions that the Infrastructure Minister will have to make for Northern Ireland plc.”
“It will conjoin the two infrastructure grid systems of the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. Now, it has been said for many years that the North/South interconnector was required for security of supply. I do not believe that for one moment. I believe that SONI is wrong and has been wrong for many years in giving that excuse. It is not for security of supply that we need an interconnector; it is to add the flexibility to our system to inject competition into our markets. I always get worried when so-called experts in the field of —.”
“However, that representation part has now gone. I worry about that. Councils and councillors have to take back control, in many ways, of our planning systems. <BR /> <BR />We also have to ensure that decisions made on a regional basis, by the Minister, are sound and procedurally correct. If they are not, it will cause only more stagnation and delay. Many massive projects have to go ahead but cannot at present. That is somewhere we cannot afford to be. In these projects, time is of the essence, and, usually, time is money, whether it be a big building contract, an infrastructure project, a road network, carriageways or dualling them, or bypasses for towns and some cities. This is all massive work that needs to be done. <BR /> <BR />One project that is very important is the North/South interconnector.”
“That is a very bad place for Northern Ireland plc. My point is this: even though some of our councils can be classed as being efficient, effective and speedy in their decision-making process, I wonder whether they are still serving the people they are meant to. Those are the agents, the applicants and the objectors. I have found that, with all the haste in Mid and East Antrim, is that, progressively, over the last months and years, you used to have a planning schedule with seven or eight applications per month, now you have two or three. <BR /> <BR />The powers that councils sought and got are being diminished because they are delegating that power to the Planning Service. In the old-style councils, the old-style councillor used to be a guardian or representative, someone who fought for applicant, agent and objector alike.”
“I fear that, in the current position that planning is in, at council level, it is not that council has taken over planning; it is sometimes the case that planning has taken over the council. My constituency has two council areas, Mid and East Antrim and Causeway Coast and Glens. Many times it has been said that Mid and East Antrim has one of the best, quickest and most efficient teams of planners and planning system, whereas, Causeway Coast and Glens, you could say, is the opposite. That should not be the case, and it needs to be resolved.”
“What we have found, over the last number of years, is the creation of a patchwork, where different councils, in different constituencies, make different processes of decision-making, which has gone some way to creating confusion, twin tracks and dual speeds, in planning. Consultants and planning agents complain that, if they cover three or four council areas, they have to keep in touch and keep an eye on deadlines, schemes, schedules and registers. It is very confusing. Even the process itself can be confusing. Anything that brings certainty, or clarity, to planning would be good. <BR /> <BR />Do not get me wrong. Decisions have to be taken quickly, but correctly. That is a massive point, along with planning.”
“I support the Bill but do not necessarily support accelerated passage. That is never the best way to do legislation. However, I see that an anomaly has arisen due to Buick and that it needs to be resolved. We need to be in a position where Northern Ireland can make decisions that are sound and safe, and, if the Bill goes some way to allaying those fears and making sure that the Executive and Ministers in Northern Ireland can make those decisions, that is a good thing. Where we are at the minute should not be where we are at, and we have to try to rectify that. <BR /> <BR />Planning worries me. We have seen councils take over planning to a certain degree.”
“It is unbelievable that that has taken place today. It is a shame on the party on the opposite Benches that it has allowed that to happen. There have been many occasions in the past number of weeks —.”
“What of their anxiety today when they see and read the news and see Sinn Féin practising no social distancing and no responsibility with regard to what it has been preaching over the last number of months? What of the anxiety of teaching staff when they see that "Do as I say, not as I do" attitude? That has been so hurtful to the messaging and to the psyche of our people when they see the work that they have put in over the last three to four months. They have been trying to keep people safe and now they see people flaunting the regulations with disregard for the safety measures.”
“That is vital going forward, and the only way to have equitable educational facilities and learning examples and experiences is to have pupils in school; there is no doubt about that. That is what we should strive to do. <BR /> <BR />Let us look at the wording of the motion. Everything is in a context, especially when we look at the day that we have had. The motion says:”
“The Minister has traipsed round the Province, meeting school principals and teachers in every art and part of Northern Ireland, and he must get credit for that. He has listened and moved where he can and I applaud him for that. Many of the principals and teaching staff whom I speak to on a weekly basis have concurred with and echoed that sentiment and are thankful for it. <BR /> <BR />There is absolutely no doubt that we are living in very pressurised times and there are strains and uncertainties that will have to be ironed out. We have always worked with the maxim that missing one day's schooling is detrimental to a pupil's education. It is important that we try to get as many pupils back to school on a full-time basis as soon as possible in order that their educational opportunities are not hurt.”
“We do teaching staff and principals a grave disservice when we say that they do not have clear and proper guidance.”
“The Member raises a very important point. Going forward, it is crucial that children and business, right across the Province, have adequate broadband. He is absolutely right to raise that. <BR /> <BR />Principals know their school and their staff best. Principals and teachers also know their pupils best. As regards the responsibility for moving forward safely, in this day and age, given the risks involved, there is no person better placed in a school to measure risk in that built environment than the principal of the school.”
“I must say that, when my children were younger, my wife took up the burden of homework duty in my house. The stress and strain of homework is mighty enough, but to homeschool children too must be a massive burden.”