Paul Frew
North Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for that intervention. Nevertheless, there are concerns that I want to address. The Minister and the departmental officials will know that, even from the range of questions that I have asked. We need to make sure that we get the balance correct.”
“In the written and oral evidence received then, the Committee was advised of potential amendments that the Minister may table at Consideration Stage, including an amendment to remove the commissioner that is being considered in liaison with OLC.”
“That in itself causes some victims and witnesses bother, because they are in a system that they are not part of, which means that they do not get the support that they require. That can sometimes leave them feeling retraumatised, as though they have been put through the wringer again.”
“The Bill makes provision to offer those protections and provide clarity to victims that they do not have to face their perpetrator in court. <BR /> <BR />Members asked questions about a range of matters, including the independence of the office, the ability to review the performance of any future commissioner, the costs of establishing th…”
“I thank the Minister for her intervention. She was absolutely right to take that action, as it means that victims' voices are right at the heart of the matters under discussion. It is now obvious to us that that should have been done years ago, but it is good that it is being done now.”
“Officials explained that the Bill would legislate on the disclosure regime not to prevent an application for disclosure but to set out a process whereby the defence would have to show the relevance of the information that it was requesting. That is an important protection.”
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“When I look at the judge-led system in our courts and at some of the people who contributed to this conversation over the last two years, it strikes me as being very clear that the judges do not want us to expand on this approach at all. Sir Stephen Irwin, former Lord Justice of Appeal of England and Wales, thought that there was little to be gained from a bill of rights while the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) applies. Rather, he thought that the desire to improve social conditions and hold Governments to account should be fulfilled through the political system. I agree with Sir Stephen Irwin 100%. That is the fine balance that we need to bring in. <BR /> <BR />We can talk about all sorts of rights.”
“We have the legislature, the courts and the Executive. That is basically where we need to be. It is about the balance and us being the guardians of democracy, making sure that it does not fail or hurt our people. We cannot say that that has been the case over the last two years.”
“I must say that he has added to the debate and certainly to my position. He is right. Look at the Supreme Court in America and how politicised it is. Can anybody argue that that is the direction in which we should go? I believe that it is not. We have finely balanced levels of government.”
“The Member makes a very good intervention.”
“Regulations have brought harm to our people by removing their right to earn a living, to work, to have a proper education, to play sports and to be active. The Assembly needs to take a good look at itself. That is one of the reasons that we need a superior level of law — a level of rights — that protects people when democratic institutions fail. <BR /> <BR />There is a balance to be struck between the courts and having a democratic organisation that is fit and proper and working in the right way. Those are two of the branches of government there to protect people, because that is what government is all about.”
“A number of issues were borne out even in conversations in Committee, however. One is the rights in this part of the United Kingdom that may well become different from those in other parts of the nation and how that would affect the body corporate and the democratic principles and institutions of this place. Another is the expansionist model of, or approach to, rights. Rights are important, but they should be a high-level principle and need to be used only if the democratic institutions fail to protect people. <BR /> <BR />I must say that it has certainly been a lesson for me over the past two years when I have seen this democratic institution fail on so many occasions. We have had to pass laws retrospectively.”
“That is why rights, the concept of rights and that superior level of law are important: because, at that point, they take the judgement out of the hands of politicians and put it into the hands of judges. <BR /> <BR />Even from the last century, we have the experience of the unspeakable wickedness that was conducted by the Nazi Government. They ensured that everything that they did was wrapped up in law, rules and regulations so that even the most wicked acts of the Nazi Party were lawful. It was important that we had that superior source of law by which members of the Nazi Party could be judged, condemned and, in a lot of cases, executed. That is why we need that superior level of rights. <BR /> <BR />The concept of rights is assured. It is something that we support.”
“I have been on the Committee for a short time, yet I wish to speak about the report. Having read it and engaged with the Committee, I believe that this was a useful conversation to have. <BR /> <BR />Rights and the concept of rights are probably as old as man. They stem from ancient life, particularly from the Romans. It is important that there be a layer of rights, because democratic institutions sometimes fail. It is important to have a superior set of laws that can be used, if needed, in case a political party, even a democratic one, that may well have a private army behind it, or a shadowy organisation organising and leading it, would have power and trap it for itself.”
“Will the Minister do all in her power to get everybody back to face-to-face assessments, and when will that take place?”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. The Minister will know the inadequacies of a phone conversation when it comes to assessing how an ailment affects a person, and the help and support that they may have with them at assessments is not the same through a phone conversation, even if it is on loudspeaker.”
“The rising price of gas means that young people who are fortunate enough to own their home are considering moving back home with their parents and renting out their property. That will have a catastrophic effect on not only those directly affected but society. We need to make sure that we cut this off at the pass, probably for the first time in our history, and get support on the ground as quickly as possible.”
“I understand that that is a slick way of doing things, but there is a swathe of people who work hard, are just about managing and cannot afford to heat their homes. This is about the price of electricity and gas, and those people have to make tough choices. <BR /> <BR />I note the moves in England by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on rates relief. Some £150 million is coming to us to assist with the issue, and it strikes me that rates relief is a good, sensible way of getting money across the board to assist everyone in that situation. I hope that the Minister of Finance and the Minister for Communities will look at that seriously and sensibly and will try to get that money on the ground as soon as possible. <BR /> <BR />Fuel poverty is already causing demographic change in my constituency.”
“I remind the House that our people are being affected by not only high levels of fuel poverty but increases in the general cost of living. People have died over the last number of months, and people die every year because of this issue. We do not take it seriously enough, nor do the Departments. The Department for Communities is responsible for fuel poverty. I do not suggest that everything rests on that Department; there should be a more rounded approach. <BR /> <BR />Two schemes have been pushed through to help people in fuel poverty. One is for people in crisis. By that stage, in many cases, the damage will already have been done in other factors of their life, including their health, welfare and fitness. The other scheme is for people who qualify through other benefits, and that is a way of catching those people.”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. I hope you will not deny me a supplementary question. <BR /> <BR />Thank you, Minister, for confirming that you withdrew the motion twice. The reason that you have given is a bit strange because, no matter what decisions are taken on 10 February, the motion to extend the powers is about the ability to use emergency powers in the future. There is not really a connection between the decisions on 10 February and an extension of your powers. I ask this again: why do you need the extension of powers? When will you bring that to the House for a full debate?”
“I thank the Minister for that. That will provide reassurance to many people who simply cannot wear a mask. There are many people who do not wear masks for other reasons, and they should do so because it is the law, but there are so many who cannot because of trauma that they have suffered. I will repeat the question: what can be done, Minister — she is part of the Executive — to ensure that emergency legislation like this does not lead to mistakes like this in the future?”
“Even if they meet more often than that, it is not to talk about technical issues such as this. The amendment is therefore positive, and we pushed for and support it. The Minister had to go through all the checks and balances to make sure that this change will not have an unintended consequence, and we need that due diligence because of being in the position of having to put forward a "repair Bill" in the first place. That due diligence is therefore welcome. <BR /> <BR />That is all that I want to say at this stage. I welcome the movement on the Bill.”
“What should have been quite a mundane process has had to be rescued, or, rather, repaired — maybe "repair Bill" is a better term to use. Amendment No 1 fixes that situation, so, of course, we were always going to support it, but we also added references to sections 22(3), 22(4) and 23(1) of the Act. As the Committee worked through the Bill with the Department, it was clear from looking at the 2008 Act that those references needed to be added, so that is a good thing. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 2, which leaves out 42 days and inserts 91 days, is crucial. It is just good practice to allow good time for these organisations to consider exactly where they are and what they need to do. Forty-two days was so tight, considering that a lot of the organisations do not meet regularly. They certainly do not all meet daily or weekly; some meet monthly.”
“That is a regret, because we could have got so much more out of it and had more insight into what could have been done. That is a miss and a regret. <BR /> <BR />The Committee, as I said, pushed for the amendments, so we receive them gratefully. They help the Bill, the context of which is that, even though the previous Bill went through all the ramifications, scrutiny and stages before being enacted, we did not get it right. This is therefore a bit of a "rescue Bill", if there is such a term in democratic language. I am not sure that we have rescued the situation completely, but at least it is progress. <BR /> <BR />Clause 1 deals with thousands of decisions that were taken by the commission. Eight thousand decisions were taken since the commission's establishment, of which 6,800 were on the registration of charities.”
“I thank the Minister for bringing forward the Bill. I also thank her officials, who came to the Committee and worked hard with us to table the amendments. I acknowledge that the Department listened to the Committee. If there is an example of how a Committee and a Department should work together, it is certainly this case. I therefore thank the Minister and officials. That is what we need, and it is very welcome. I get much more joy out of a Committee when the Department is responsive, and we have further examples of that in the other Bills that we are scrutinising these days. <BR /> <BR />Let me be negative for one wee minute. Like the Chairperson of the Committee, I regret that the independent panel's report has not yet been made public. That is an example of the fact that we do not have the sequencing right for Bills like this.”
“It has created dramatic suffering and downturns in those businesses, not only because people are being prevented from entering their premises but because many are refusing to play any part in the practice of certification and discrimination. It needs to end, and it needs to end now.”
“That measure is designed to discriminate. That measure is designed to isolate. That measure is designed to coerce. It is unacceptable. When you prevent or ban someone from entering a pub or restaurant unless they prove their health by testing for a virus every other day but allow into the same setting someone else who has a certificate on their phone or person simply because they were vaccinated months ago, even though they could well be suffering from the virus, that is discrimination. It is discrimination of the harshest order, because it violates one of the most instinctive and principled norms of the medical world: informed consent. <BR /> <BR />It has also had a terrible impact on business.”
“In my 12 years as an Assembly Member, this may be my first time presenting a petition. This petition was made up, formed and organised by a group called Liberty NI. It has 10,000 signatures. I cannot think of a more honourable cause for a petition than to record our disgust and abhorrence that an Executive, and, indeed, the Assembly, can pass such a discriminatory measure as vaccine certification, which was brought into reality by a Health Minister using emergency legislation that is both undemocratic and not accountable through the vigorous and rigorous regime of stages of primary legislation. <BR /> <BR />Vaccine certification is one of a number of cruel measures brought in by the Health Minister, but this one treats people differently based only on whether they have received a medical intervention, namely a COVID vaccine.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. On a point of information, can he tell the House when the evidence that he has shown us today was published?”
“The regulation — this measure — does not do it. It does not cut it. It will bring widespread hurt and pain to businesses, business owners and staff and members of our population and of my constituency. I will not abide by it. I cannot support it. My name will not be near it.”
“I think it is a point of debate, actually, but I will not go against your ruling. If you treat people differently, it is discrimination. If you allow only people who are vaccinated to have a certificate but you force people who are not vaccinated to test every other day to gain entry to the same setting, it is discrimination. It is treating one family member differently from another. I cannot support that. I will not support that. My party will not support that. All I ask is that we pause, take this back a step, scrutinise it properly and see the evidence. If there is any evidence, let us see it. <BR /> <BR />Let us move forward with regulations that are evidence-based and that will protect people — not discriminate against them and hurt them and hurt business but protect them from the virus that is killing people.”
“It will have a massive impact on our people and on households, with discrimination between one family member and another. I cannot support that. I will not support that.”
“<BR /> <BR />The fact that so many gaps remain in relation to the regulations demonstrates that the Department has not learned the mistakes of previous stages of the pandemic. Even the PPS has made it clear that the ill-considered and confusing nature of much of the COVID legislation is a barrier to effective enforcement, even if you wanted to enforce a draconian measure that discriminates between one family member and another. <BR /> <BR />I believe it to be an horrendous measure on the face of the regulations, and I believe it to be horrendous that we have not had the time to scrutinise properly and that no scrutiny Committee has had the time to really get in-depth knowledge and evidence on COVID status certification. Yet, we will pass this here tonight.”
“That creates an unacceptable inequality for people living in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />There are also data concerns. Where are the data protection assessments? The Department, the Minister and, if the regulations pass, the House will ask people to provide strangers with personal health data. Will the reason for someone's medical exemption need to be declared on their certificate, or will an exemption be enough? What clinical and professional evidence will be needed? Who will have access to such personal information? Who will ultimately be the judge of whether someone's condition is serious enough to warrant an exemption? How will the process be open and transparent? Will there even be an appeal mechanism?”
“They include people receiving end-of-life care where vaccination is not in the person's best interests, people with learning difficulties or autistic individuals, people with a combination of impairments where vaccination cannot be provided through reasonable adjustments and people with severe allergies to all currently available vaccines. Short-term exemptions will also be available for those with short-term medical conditions, an option that some pregnant women may choose to take. Where are those facilities in Northern Ireland? It is unclear whether the Department intends to replicate that flexibility. In the meantime, those with legitimate reasons for not receiving the vaccine in other parts of the UK can continue to access settings that require proof of their status. They can gain entry.”
“We have seen in many cases, in hospitality settings and in settings such as cruises, that vaccinated people spread COVID-19. Certification is no guarantee and no safeguard against the transmission of the virus, nor will it stop hospitalisations. <BR /> <BR />That is the tragic thing about the debate today. There is no evidence to suggest that it will work, none whatever. Nobody has provided that, yet we are going to pursue it and burden those businesses. In England, clarity has already been provided on the medical conditions covered by the exemption process.”
“That, of course, will be under-reported. <BR /> <BR />We know that there are people who are exempt from vaccines. How will those people be supported? They cannot be coerced into taking another vaccine. They have already tried it once. The Minister's press release championed early uptake of the scheme on 3 December and completely ignored the issue of medical exemptions. Was that a blind spot? The Department's online guidance refers to only three ways to provide your status: being double-vaccinated, having a negative test result or having evidence of an earlier PCR positive test. However, let us be clear. You can have a certificate on your phone or in paper form in your back pocket, but that certificate does not prove one bit that you do not have the COVID-19 virus.”
“<BR /> <BR />The UK Health Security Agency states:”
“What does that even mean? Unlike other regions of the United Kingdom, there is no indication that such a facility is even close to being operational in Northern Ireland. Even if it were, why does it have to be done through the certification scheme? Surely a letter from a GP, who knows the patient best, should be ample to provide exemption. The problem is this: some GPs will not give out exemption letters. Sometimes they do not have the time because of the strain and burden on them. How will we get around the exemptions for vulnerable people and people who simply cannot take the vaccination? There are many medical reasons that people cannot take the vaccination, one of which is that they may have suffered myocarditis after the first dose. That has been proven to be the case in some cases, but it is very rare, thankfully.”
“for public health and trust in government. That is undeniable. That is why I cannot support anything that forces or coerces people into getting vaccinated or discriminates against them based on their vaccination status. <BR /> <BR />There are also serious concerns over the lack of guidance for those who are medically exempt from vaccination. The regulations state that someone can provide evidence:”
“The article states that the researchers said that there is a suggestion:”
“Professor Calvo from the Dyson School of Design Engineering, said:”
“No, I will not. <BR /> <BR />The article states that the study also found:”
“You do not and should not coerce people, however. You should not discriminate against people because they have chosen to wait a while or chosen, for some other reason, not to take the vaccine at this time.”
“Dr Porat, the study's lead author, states:”
“Those are the words of the Federation of Small Businesses. Have you ever seen a time when lobby groups have spoken so sternly and with so much force? I have not. Surely that shows the measure of the concern among businesses. <BR /> <BR />I turn now to a good report from Imperial College London about vaccine passports and the link to COVID-19 vaccine hesitancy in the UK and Israel:”
“Again, there is confusion. What is the current position? How long will the wee paper cards in your wallet be usable? Do businesses know that they can be used? There is already confusion. <BR /> <BR />I will finish this section of my speech with a quotation from the Federation of Small Businesses:”
“No, I will not. I will be consistent and fair to other Members. <BR /> <BR />I quote the Federation of Small Businesses:”
“Over 85% of its membership felt that the COVID status certificate should either not be introduced at all or, if it is to be introduced, should be applied to relevant public settings such as trains, buses, hospital waiting areas as well as private businesses. If the regulations are to be introduced, they must contain a sunset clause — there is a novel approach — so that, in the event of instability in the current Executive or delays in establishing a new one after the election, businesses will not be left subject to a serious burden that no one is empowered to repeal.”
“Let me add my take to the cry of the businesses. We are in a business arena where the rising costs of energy and inflation are crippling. Businesses cannot get staff, yet we burden them with COVID certification that is not evidenced to work anywhere, has not reduced admissions to hospital and has not seen cases drop. That is the state of the industry, and it is crying for help. It is asking for information or evidence, and we cannot even give it that. The industry wants to know the logic behind the burden that we place on it. <BR /> <BR />The Federation of Small Businesses (FSB) has also carried out polling.”
“Where is the opportunity to amend the legislation? There is none. It is not primary legislation.”
“That is how Hospitality Ulster puts it. It continues:”
“In our constituency of North Antrim, one hotel in particular probably has about 19 entrances. How will it cope? The email continues:”
“That is the way Hospitality Ulster puts it. Do you know something? It does not really matter whether you call it a "passport scheme" or "certification". The public see it as discrimination. <BR /> <BR />The email continues:”
“Is that not damning? <BR /> <BR />I received a further email from Hospitality Ulster today, and it is important that this is spoken of. It says:”
“These businesses are in an awful position.”