Paul Frew
North Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for that intervention. Nevertheless, there are concerns that I want to address. The Minister and the departmental officials will know that, even from the range of questions that I have asked. We need to make sure that we get the balance correct.”
“In the written and oral evidence received then, the Committee was advised of potential amendments that the Minister may table at Consideration Stage, including an amendment to remove the commissioner that is being considered in liaison with OLC.”
“That in itself causes some victims and witnesses bother, because they are in a system that they are not part of, which means that they do not get the support that they require. That can sometimes leave them feeling retraumatised, as though they have been put through the wringer again.”
“The Bill makes provision to offer those protections and provide clarity to victims that they do not have to face their perpetrator in court. <BR /> <BR />Members asked questions about a range of matters, including the independence of the office, the ability to review the performance of any future commissioner, the costs of establishing th…”
“I thank the Minister for her intervention. She was absolutely right to take that action, as it means that victims' voices are right at the heart of the matters under discussion. It is now obvious to us that that should have been done years ago, but it is good that it is being done now.”
“Officials explained that the Bill would legislate on the disclosure regime not to prevent an application for disclosure but to set out a process whereby the defence would have to show the relevance of the information that it was requesting. That is an important protection.”
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“I thank the Minister for her answer. Nearly every week in the press we see stories about changes to bail conditions, lenient bail conditions and suspended sentencing compared to others in the unionist community.”
“— in order that this would be placed on the ground as quickly as possible. I fear there could be more fatalities. Can the Minister give an assurance that this will be on the ground as quickly as possible?”
“The Minister has already outlined the fact that his Department is consulting some of the objectors. I have facilitated some meetings with officials from Transport NI. One of the concerns I have is that it is meeting individual objectors, as opposed to having a public meeting where they may be able to address more concerns more quickly —”
“Thank you, deputy First Minister. He will be aware of the work of the Ballymena Inter-Ethnic Forum in the Mid and East Antrim Borough Council area. Whilst the figures for hate crime have risen by something like 87% in the last five years, they have reduced dramatically in Ballymena and east Antrim. What more support can the Executive Office give to groups like the Ballymena Inter-Ethnic Forum to assist them in their work?”
“I thank the Member for giving way, and I appreciate the work that the Member has put into the campaign over the last number of years around his constituency. How does it make you feel when you see a large party in this place — the Ulster Unionist Party — completely divided on this issue? It is very much like how they were divided in Europe, with some of their members campaigning to leave and others campaigning to stay. How does that make you feel?”
“I thank the Minister for her statement to the House. She has indicated a very welcome cooperation between the probation boards in the two countries. What new ideas and learning on the prevention of domestic, sexual and gender-based violence did Probation Board NI take away from the conference? What initiatives are in place to improve information sharing and prevent sex offenders and domestic violence offenders from using the border to prevent detection and carry on their abuse? Does the Minister realise that there is a significant problem in that area?”
“— we could have registers, disclosure schemes, guidance for the police and the prosecutors, and guidance and support for the victims. That is what we need to do in this place.”
“This is completely different. The people who commit this crime are delusional. They need help, and sometimes they need to be removed from society and treated. How are we to treat the perpetrators if we do not even acknowledge that they have committed a crime? We should go much further than just having crimes of stalking. If we had crimes of stalking —”
“That could simply be because nobody is helping those victims. People are getting away with that crime. <BR /> <BR />It is not harassment. Harassment is many things; it is two neighbours falling out over a hedge and one person then harassing the other.”
“The seatbelt law is not enforceable, but it changed people's mindsets and it saved lives. My point is that every law is enforceable if guidance is issued. However, if we cover it up and pretend that it is not there, we will never be able to enforce anything. <BR /> <BR />For victims of stalking, their workplace, neighbourhood, street and home become a prison. The very body that contains their soul becomes a prison. Their mind becomes their prison. Their computer and phone are windows of despair and anxiety. They feel that no one is listening to them. There is no law to protect them. The police do not have guidance to support them; that is clear when you read the stats and the evidence about how long some people are being victims. In some cases, it is 18 months, and 42% are stalked for more than 24 months.”
“It is time that that activity was uncovered; it is time that it was put on the statute book in its own right. If we clump stalking in with harassment, which we have done, it means that we do not understand the nature and essence of stalking, we cannot measure the scale of stalking, and we cannot fathom its effects on victims and their families. If someone is charged with some offence because they have stalked somebody, it is not because they have stalked somebody; it is for some other offence. That defeats the purpose; it means that those people find it acceptable to continue to carry out their activity. <BR /> <BR />At the minute, stalking — it grieves me to say this — is the butt of many a joke. It should not be. I know that the Minister's advisers will say, "It's not enforceable, Minister; we can't do this".”
“Thank you, Mr — Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. It is the new term; my apologies. <BR /> <BR />I commend my colleague Brenda Hale for bringing the motion before the House. She is a tremendous MLA doing sterling work for her constituents. As she said, it is something that has personally affected her and her family. I also commend DUP Councillor Peter Martin, not of this House but of Ards and North Down Borough Council, who has done tremendous work with some victims of stalking. <BR /> <BR />There is absolutely no doubt about it: this is something that needs to be uncovered. No doubt the Minister will be getting advisers coming to her and saying, "Minister, it's OK; we have this covered. This is covered under harassment legislation. That is the case at the minute".”
“I thank the Member for giving way and for highlighting those figures. Does he agree with me that, whilst harassment covers all sorts of ills, sins and issues, stalking is something completely different?”
“Does the First Minister agree that the fans, both those in France and those who remained in the Province, did the country proud and sent messages and set a lasting legacy, not only in France but throughout the world?”
“I take the opportunity to thank the First Minister and the Chief Whip for allowing me the time off to follow my dreams.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. He leads on a very important point with regards to departmental budgets and responses. I was going to make this point to Mr Beggs, the Member for East Antrim, but I ran out of time: there is always a tendency with Departments, no matter what Department it is, to keep money in-house and in the centre, when that £300,000 or £500,000 could be spent far better in far greater ways by the voluntary and community sector. They are the ones with the real specialism who have got to grips with the problems.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I really appreciate the manner way in which the House, with one exception, has conducted the debate. The Member is quite right about the work that is done by the community and voluntary sector, such as the good work that is done by the Hope Centre. You are talking about only hundreds of thousands of pounds — the same applies to Railway Street — to provide a service that can spend the money more effectively than any government agency. That is a good way to spend the budget.”
“Think of the chaos that would be caused by that happening. They bring people in off the street, cater for their needs and help them with all sorts of issues and dramas that GPs, MLA constituency offices and Citizens Advice cannot cope with. They are medically trained in some respects. Even if it is something like needle exchange or if it is to keep a drug user safer in his practice, those are things that we need to strive to gain. If we make the drug user safer, we make his or her family safer. Those are very important points that I ask you, Minister, to take away and make sure that you not only restore the funding needed to run addiction services and units throughout the Province but enhance the funding for those specialisms and spread them out so that more people from across the Province can get help when they need it.”
“Only after a massive campaign in the community, which fought hard to retain it, was there a promise of two further years of support. The DOJ runs that facility in partnership with the Health Minister, and that is why it is important that we have a joined-up approach. Two thirds of that funding should come from DOJ, but there has been a reduced service since last year. I appeal to the Minister to look at the Railway Street addiction unit in Ballymena and consider moving it right across the Province. Those are the experts and the people who hand-hold the victims and the drug addicts. They are the people who support families when times are tough. We cannot do it; we do not have the time. GPs certainly do not have the time, although they could do more. This is a specialised unit that deals with people even walking in off the street.”
“I make this appeal to the Minister: please, Minister, at the first opportunity you get, come down and visit the Railway Street addiction unit in Ballymena to see the work that is being done to help drug users by supporting them and trying to get them off the habit. It supports the families, the youngsters and the mothers and fathers in trying to move people away from addiction or at least help them in their suffering until they get to a point at which they can reduce their addiction. It is vital that places such as the Railway Street addiction unit are supported. <BR /> <BR />Minister, you are only just in post, but the previous Minister and the Department were prepared to reduce funding for that service only last year.”
“According to the prison inspectors, the cost per occupied place is £16,000 more. We have to get smart and clever in how we tackle this. Even if we throw people into prison, drugs will still be here, people will still find addictions, people will still have to go through treatment, people will have to be tackled and families will have to be supported. That will all cost money. <BR /> <BR />How wide-ranging are drugs? Drug crime is not the only effect. I hazard a guess that violence against the person, theft, burglary, robbery, criminal damage, public disorder, miscellaneous crimes against society and even some motoring offences and some sexual offences are caused by drugs and their spectre. How do we become smarter?”
“It is important that the Minister gets to grips with some of the work that the Justice Committee did in the previous mandate on drugs courts and innovation in that area: the smarter use of courts, for example, and being cleverer when it comes to tackling the issue and making sure that people are removed from society. Also, we must ensure that people are not just thrown into prison, because you can rest assured that they will come out with a drug problem. That is something that we have to tackle in our prisons. <BR /> <BR />If we are simply saying today — we are not — that we should throw everybody into prison, it will cost every one of us a lot of money. Surveys show that it takes about £73,000 to keep someone in prison in Northern Ireland for a year. Some say that it is even more than that.”
“When we do, there will be no need for drug mules or carriers, which will help us all, especially the drug addicts trying to adjust their life and move away from drugs. Without that, it cannot happen. <BR /> <BR />We cannot do the same thing over and over again. Drugs are here, drugs are real, drugs are everywhere. I would bet that there is not an establishment in the country that has not had a trace of drugs on its premises at some time or other. I suggest that every note that you have in your wallet or purse has a trace of drugs. That is how endemic the issue is in our society, and it is important that we tackle it in a smart, tough way.”
“We are not talking just about drug users. We realise that it is against the law and that you should not take drugs, but we also realise that people are addicted, that it becomes an illness, that it takes over your life and that it destroys the family from within. We are not necessarily talking about the drug mules or the drug carriers either, although they are breaking the law and need to be served justice in the same way as anyone else. We really need to see a day when we tackle the ones at the very top: the people who are organised enough to bring shipments of drugs to these shores. Whether they are paramilitaries or are linked to organised crime — it is much the same — we need to tackle those people and get them off our streets.”
“<BR /> <BR />As the main motion states, we want a criminal justice system that is tough enough to deal robustly with those who are responsible for the menace of drugs on our streets.”
“<BR /> <BR />This is an important debate, which is why we brought it to the House so quickly in the new mandate. We realise at first hand the devastation that drugs have on our society, not only on the people who suffer addiction but on their families — mothers and fathers, sons and daughters, wives and husbands. Everyone in the wider family circle suffers when someone becomes addicted to drugs. <BR /> <BR />An amendment has been tabled, and we fully support it. We realise clearly that the issue requires a holistic approach, and one Minister alone cannot solve the problem of this crisis in society that hits families so hard. It has to be a holistic approach, so we will be clear and gracious in supporting the amendment.”
“This is my first opportunity to congratulate you on your appointment as Speaker. I know that you will do a grand job and bring to it all the fairness of previous Speakers. I know you very well; you have been a good friend to me, and I know that you will lead the House in a fair manner. <BR /> <BR />I also congratulate the newly appointed Justice Minister. This is our first opportunity to debate and engage with each other. I am speaking here as an MLA for North Antrim, but I also happen to be the Chairperson of the Justice Committee. I assure the Minister that the Committee will fully scrutinise the work that she and her Department do, but the Committee is also there to give advice and support in the coming months and years. There will be very exciting times for us all as we go forward.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Of course, he is trying to make as good a job as he can of explaining the Ulster Unionists' position. He must have found it extremely difficult when he was canvassing in the Assembly elections to get that point across, when he made it clear so many times that he was for voting to leave, while his party is for voting to remain.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. He is right to talk about a holistic approach. I heard the previous speaker talking about infrastructure. Does the Member realise that infrastructure has been heavily damaged in Northern Ireland by cuts from the Tory party, a party that was wedded to the UUP for many years? Does the Member, like me, want to know where the UUP stands on the European Union and whether they are in or out? At the minute, we do not really know where they stand.”
“The Member's point on short-sightedness is good, but he misses the elephant in the room with regard to what we pay in subsidies. Even though that is mighty, it is the actual cost of energy, not the subsidy, that could be the problem that needs to be tackled. I agree with what he said about looking at all the options. Another option is to not necessarily subsidise generation but to look at how we can subsidise the use of the energy generated by containing energy so that we can use it at more effective times. I am certainly not saying that we should throw millions at that, but it is another option that we should look at in the whole scheme of things.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I think I am hearing him suggest that he would support a Northern Ireland ROC scheme. First, the apparatus is not there to actually sustain that, but, if it was, does the Member realise that it would cost Northern Ireland bill payers maybe £770 million over the next 20 years, which would all come from our businesses and bill payers?”
“He has been left in a very difficult position by Amber Rudd and the decision by the Conservatives to end the schemes early. It has been a massive and very difficult issue, and we have been able to deal with it tonight.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I appreciate the expertise that the Member has gathered on the Committee over the last number of months since he came back. I welcome that. As with everything, all incentivisation comes at a cost. One thing I am not hearing from the opposite Benches tonight is a balance. Whilst I am not against incentivisation — I am certainly happy about the closure for large scale because we need to bank the 650MW of energy for security of supply — whatever happens for small scale in the future will have to be balanced by the cost to the bill payers, especially our industries and the bills they pay. It will have to be balanced to make sure it is affordable. <BR /> <BR />That is something that the Minister strove to do over the last number of months.”
“Does the Minister know how much a working family would have to earn each year to bring their net income above £26,000?”
“— that is very close to Carnaghts Primary School. I have met the principal, Mr Ian Henderson, who has been campaigning for many years for road improvements. Will the Minister consider placing a fourth junction into the system?”
“I thank the Minister for her answers to date and for taking up my invitation to come down on site to the Woodgreen junction to see for herself the risks that drivers have to take daily, sometimes more than once. <BR /> <BR />The Minister mentioned three specific sites. I agree with her that they are indeed very dangerous crossings, but I want to say to the Minister that I believe that there could well be a fourth crossing that is potentially very dangerous, which is the Valley Road/Shankbridge junction —”
“That can be only a good thing for the people whom we all serve in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />I look forward to the day when, hopefully, we will see an opposition, which will lead not only to a more respectable opposition, not necessarily leaving it all to the Committees, but to a more streamlined government and Executive. That will further help to drive this country in one direction as opposed to five — now four — different directions. It is a very good day, and I understand the points that Chris Lyttle made. <BR /> <BR />It would be remiss of me not to echo Chris Lyttle's remarks regarding the atrocious terrorist attack that has taken the life of a brave prison officer. I echo everything that Mr Chris Lyttle said, and I hope that the House will stand up in the face of evil terrorism.”
“I rise to support the Transfer of Functions Order. It is a good day that we are at this point. I know that this is a mechanism to deliver the statutory requirements for the transfer of functions to the new nine Departments. As someone who never really supported the set-up of 12 Departments, I believe that this is a good day. It will lead to better efficiencies and cohesion, but I plant a warning that the Ministers who are involved in the new Executive will be vital to the delivery of anything good and fresh that may come out of this move. I believe that we need to get away from the silo mindset. We need to be more cohesive and all going in one direction, which, as parties, we have failed to do collectively over the last term and beyond. I stand here with a hope that that will change as politics evolve and mature in this place.”
“Given the Minister's moves to try to protect consumers and bill payers in Northern Ireland, and the moves that have been made in Westminster, how can he influence the Programme for Government in the coming days and weeks to try to assist in bringing bills down in Northern Ireland, particularly those for industry and commerce?”
“I also pay tribute to Alban for all the years that he has been on the Justice Committee. I have learned a lot from Alban Maginness, and I consider him to be a friend. When he leaves this House, he will continue to be my friend, so, thank you.”
“I thank the Member for giving way and for his comments. I also pay tribute to his colleague Patsy McGlone, who worked tirelessly alongside me on these issues. I learned a lot from Mr McGlone during that time, but it really was an exemplar of how this House should work, because this was an issue that had bedevilled this Assembly from the word go. It took years to resolve, and it took the first Justice Bill and the threats and the laying down of amendments to concentrate minds to the point where all parties — stakeholders, the sports, the industry itself — were able to come together and merge with the Department to actually get something tangible and real. <BR /> <BR />If Patsy and I were the bridge to that achievement, so be it. It is a very good day for that to be resolved, and I pay tribute to Alban Maginness's colleague Patsy McGlone.”
“What further support does the Minister think needs to be applied to those victims — victims who think that the police's response is becoming increasingly inappropriate and inadequate?”
“This is a good day for Northern Ireland and for young people, as we see the launch of the child protection disclosure arrangements that I brought to the Justice Bill. I thank the Minister for working with me on that scheme. We see the fruition of that today. <BR /> <BR />It seems to be the case that young people aged 13 and 14 can run amok in developments — running over cars, booting in doors and smearing fast food over pensioners' windows — terrorising people on a nightly or weekly basis.”
“I thank the Finance Minister for his answer. Why has the issue taken so long to resolve, and is there any legal liability to the affected staff?”
“What progress has been made on the evaluation of the 2015-16 summer camp pilot programme? Are we confident that the money is being spent in the right and best way?”
“I know that we are at Further Consideration Stage, but I do not want to let this drop at this point. If I am fortunate enough to be elected to the next mandate, I will explore that further and look to see how we can encapsulate that and protect other emergency staff members in accident and emergency rooms up and down this Province. I will also explore any other areas where I feel it may help to protect people who provide a valuable service to our community on a daily basis. Whether that is in the form of a private Member's Bill next time round, I will certainly explore all avenues.”
“On a lot of occasions, those volunteer first responders get there well before the ambulance crew and staff. He raises a very good point, and I know the Minister will look into that.”
“I thank the Member for that, because he raises a valid point. Of course, we know that they respond to a text message that is sent through an automated system when someone calls 999.”
“I do not think that I want to cover defibrillators at the swimming pool, where someone goes and grabs the defibrillator, but the Minister may well wish to explore whether they would be protected in a system that has been set up by the Ambulance Service Health and Social Care Trust, which is a care trust. I cannot see any scenario in which someone would want to attack a Good Samaritan — a volunteer — coming to their or someone else's aid with a defibrillator. I hope that that would never happen, as I wish that no assault would ever take place on ambulance workers. He raises a good point; I give him that. It is something that I have not given real thought to. I ask the Minister to look at it. There is a challenge in what we cover and what we cannot cover, but —”
“That is a very challenging role that we need to look at with regard to protection. <BR /> <BR />I move now to specific points on defibrillators. It is clear that, nowadays, defibrillators are being put in everywhere. That is to be welcomed, whether they are on a high street, in a community centre or at a swimming pool. We know also that the Ambulance Service employs a system whereby a text message is sent round first responders, who either have defibrillators in their vehicles or go to where there is a defibrillator and then to the area where there is a casualty. Mr McMullan raises a very good point. There is a very good first responders scheme in the glens of Antrim; I am sure that that is what was on his mind as he talked about this.”