Paul Frew
North Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for that intervention. Nevertheless, there are concerns that I want to address. The Minister and the departmental officials will know that, even from the range of questions that I have asked. We need to make sure that we get the balance correct.”
“In the written and oral evidence received then, the Committee was advised of potential amendments that the Minister may table at Consideration Stage, including an amendment to remove the commissioner that is being considered in liaison with OLC.”
“That in itself causes some victims and witnesses bother, because they are in a system that they are not part of, which means that they do not get the support that they require. That can sometimes leave them feeling retraumatised, as though they have been put through the wringer again.”
“The Bill makes provision to offer those protections and provide clarity to victims that they do not have to face their perpetrator in court. <BR /> <BR />Members asked questions about a range of matters, including the independence of the office, the ability to review the performance of any future commissioner, the costs of establishing th…”
“I thank the Minister for her intervention. She was absolutely right to take that action, as it means that victims' voices are right at the heart of the matters under discussion. It is now obvious to us that that should have been done years ago, but it is good that it is being done now.”
“Officials explained that the Bill would legislate on the disclosure regime not to prevent an application for disclosure but to set out a process whereby the defence would have to show the relevance of the information that it was requesting. That is an important protection.”
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“means that you are talking about further regulation. The Bill talks about an obligatory minimum price tariff, and that skews and adds a layer of regulation between network costs and wholesale costs. That is basically what we are talking about, because you are talking about generation and you are talking about suppliers. It convolutes and complicates an already complicated system. The Utility Regulator does not have the capacity to regulate what it has to regulate already, through no fault of its own, yet we are going to add and apply further regulation and incentive and tariffs for exporting microgenerated renewable power into the grid. There are massive differences and parameters in generating power to the grid, even in the renewable world.”
“That one condition in itself raises a bit of alarm for me for a number of reasons. The fact that it places:”
“We have a Utility Regulator that regulates these issues, and, after everything that I have said around complication and lack of transparency, the Utility Regulator, through no fault of the office itself, is massively underfunded and massively under capacity. It cannot cope, especially when there are powerful players in the energy market and the system operation that try to challenge and bully. That is what we face in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />The Bill could have done much more, but I take the point that, I am sure, the Bill sponsor will make: it is about a specific thing. Granted, that is the case. Let us talk to the specifics of the Bill. Again, I am disappointed with clause 1, because it basically just places:”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. I am sure that I will get onto that at some stage in my contribution. <BR /> <BR />What could the Bill have been? It could have dealt with incentivising for electric vehicles and the state of disrepair that our very young network of chargers is already in. The company that is responsible for maintaining it, ESB, does not maintain it. That puts people off going to electric vehicles. My friend just alluded to the transparency of market systems, which costs us so much and unfairly treats our most vulnerable. We do not talk about greater powers for the Utility Regulator.”
“The electricity market in Northern Ireland — like most places, to be fair — is a complicated beast. It is complicated for a reason: a lot of people make a lot of money out of it. However, it is worse than that. You can take complication, because you can always break down complication. You can always get through it. You can always learn, and you can always make your knowledge greater, but in Northern Ireland we have a lack of transparency with regard to system operation, and that costs us even more. The worst bit about that is that we do not know how much it costs us. That is a scary proposition. <BR /> <BR />When I saw that an energy Bill was coming before us, I thought, "Great! Is it on grid connection? Is it on the cost of the grid? Is it on electric vehicles and the letting down of people who want to purchase?"”
“Where does that cost fall? The cost falls on the most vulnerable and on our businesses. That is the only place it can fall.”
“This Bill, basically, puts an onus on whoever the Minister is, from whatever party, by saying, "There should be some sort of an incentive scheme, and it should look roughly like this, and there is a suspension clause in case something goes wrong". There is not enough detail in the Bill for you to say whether you support it. Everyone in the House will support the generation of renewable energy. Not everybody will know the cost to households and businesses. We have to reflect on the past. Whilst we have been very good at generating renewable energy, my goodness, it has cost us.”
“I am somewhat disappointed. When I heard a whiff of a rumour that there was going to be an energy Bill, I got really excited. I looked forward, in anticipation, to reading its content. I commend the Member for bringing forward a Bill. I encourage every Member to bring forward a private Member's Bill on a subject that is close to their heart. That is a good thing; it is good for democracy. However, when I look at this Bill, it leaves me somewhat dismayed at yet another missed opportunity. For the second day in a row, a Sinn Féin Member is kicking a can down the road to another place and another time, for another person, another Member and another Minister. It is simply not good enough. <BR /> <BR />Legislation should be powerful and meaningful; it should do something.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. That scheme was here and not just in GB. It had two aspects: the owner of the property could buy the solar panels and install them on their roof, thereby claiming the renewables obligation certificate (ROC), or a company could, effectively, rent your roof, install the solar panels and take the ROC, which would have been accumulated somewhere else — probably offshore — with the wealth directed away from the domestic property and the householder and into the pockets of the big companies.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I would not lose heart in that regard. Some who work in betting shops are the most responsible of people. They look after a lot of the punters. They make sure that they are sensible, try to keep them level-headed and even get them home at times. Some really good people work in bookies' shops.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I echo the comments from my colleague about the Member's personal story. We share a constituency, and I wish the Member all the best in the future with regard to that. He is right about regulation, but is it not the case that we could easily have adopted some of the regulations that are already in place in GB, not least a gambling commissioner who would regulate and look at those things in a more in-depth way?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Not only is he right in what he is saying about regulation of the industry and the betting fraternity, but we have a lack of provision in the Programme for Government and a lack of joined-up government here. We know that gambling addiction is a public health issue, yet the Programme for Government is silent on what it can do to achieve better outcomes for addicted gamblers.”
“Why is that the case, when we know that it is such a fundamental issue and that there is a massive problem with gambling addiction in Northern Ireland, where it is greater than in any other part of the United Kingdom? We have a Bill that is 10 pages long and pushes regulations onto the next Minister and the next elected Assembly. That is simply not good enough. <BR /> <BR />There is so much more that I could say, but I will reserve it for Committee. I support the Bill's Second Stage, but I am disappointed, because we have lost such an opportunity.”
“So we will have to knuckle down, and I hope that the Department and the Minister step up when Committee comes knocking on their doors, because this Bill is not right and needs fixed. I am certainly prepared to vote on it today to get it into Committee to see what we can do, but it is not good, and I just do not understand why. <BR /> <BR />The Member opposite, Mr Durkan, raised the issue of Sinn Féin Northern Ireland and Sinn Féin Republic of Ireland. Sinn Féin will cry and bleat about how the Government in the Republic of Ireland are not doing enough, yet it has it in its hands here to fix the problem or help to fix it, but it has missed the opportunity. Why has it missed the opportunity? We see the blue pages in front of us.”
“<BR /> <BR />The fact that we have fixed-odds betting has been, and still is, a massive issue everywhere. It is being talked about everywhere, but the only place where it is not being talked about is in this Bill, which is silent, mute and non-existent on the subject. We are ignoring the problem of gambling and addiction to gambling when we have missed so much in this Bill. There is no excuse for that. You cannot blame time and you cannot blame the three years when the Department was in place and the Minister was not. So much could have been added to the Bill, and it is inexcusable that it was not. The heavy lifting will have to come at the Committee, which is a shame. <BR /> <BR />There is so much more that could have been done here. There are good things in the Bill, but even those are either diluted or weak. That is the shame.”
“<BR /> <BR />Think about when the blood is up and someone who is susceptible to gambling addiction has that little piece of plastic. We are all doing a bit of shouting about a bit of card that has £100 on it that you can spend on the high street. I bet you that there are many partners in our towns, cities and villages who wish that only £100 could be spent on their credit card. Credit cards can rack up untold debts and horrors, which percolates through every single family member, yet we are not tackling that here. We are not helping those people. Is allowing people to max out a credit card on a gambling machine helping them? No. It is helping them dig a hole of despair deeper, yet we do not seem to tackle that. It is not here, it is mute, it is not present and you cannot see it, yet so many Members have brought it up today.”
“Whilst it is criminal that we were down for three years, it cannot be used by any Department as an excuse for bringing forward poor legislation. That is just not going to cut it in this place. <BR /> <BR />There is so much that we can add to the Bill. Credit cards were mentioned earlier, and there is no way that anyone with a gambling addiction should be allowed to gamble with a credit card. It is not their money — it really is not — but as soon as they put the card into the machine it becomes their money and their problem. It not only becomes their problem, it becomes their partner's problem, which means that it becomes their children's problem because they do without. I am sure that it is such an easy clause to add to a Bill. Why do we not see it? Why is it not in the Bill?”
“There is nothing solid in that; nothing. When we need an air of "decisionism", where is it? There are no decisions being taken here. We are kicking the can down the road. It is not good enough. We have time to bring in legislation that is fit for purpose. It does not have to be all-encompassing. Let us get right the things that are in the Bill and those that will be put into the Bill. <BR /> <BR />The Member opposite talked about time. We were down for three years. We should not have been, but we were. What was the Department doing in that time? Gambling addiction and abuse has been a problem in Northern Ireland for years; it is a bigger problem in Northern Ireland than it is anywhere else in the UK. Why are we coming late to the game? It is not an excuse.”
“is a misnomer. It does not make sense. That is not the essence of gambling. The bookies will always get their slice and have their cut. It is the punter who loses. The punter wins sometimes — sometimes, they win big — but then they lose more, and more often. There is no fair way of gambling; there really is not. What is the point of having a code of practice if, even though it says that you have to gamble in a fair way, it has no teeth and the big, powerful beasts ignore it? <BR /> <BR />In the Bill, the Minister proposes to bring in regulations next time. Next time. Is that not kicking cans down the road even more? Are we leaving it to someone else to bring those in? The word "may" is used. The Bill states that:”
“I will let you into a wee secret: there is nothing fair about gambling. The bookies set the odds. There is nothing fair about that. The bookies get their cut. There are no odds that a bookie will give you that are fair. They might do something to promote something, but gambling is stacked against the punter. That is the way that it has always been and the way that it always will be. To have a code of practice that aims to ensure that:”
“Therefore, whilst the statutory levy is a good thing, it would be pointless to throw good money after bad. We do that so many times in the House. We can throw more money at health but, unless we fix the health service, some of that money will not be well spent. That is a primitive state of fact. <BR /> <BR />There are issues around the code of practice. A code of practice is nothing unless it is enforceable. We need a code of practice that has teeth, because these industry drivers are powerful and rich and make a big profit. The code of practice must ensure that:”
“However, I am troubled by this: how many times do we throw good money after bad? What is the point of raising money, even if it is from the industry, and throwing it away because we have not fixed the problem and are just throwing money at it? I am not making light of the fact that we need more money to tackle these things, but it is a big false economy if we are going to pull in money from the industry and think that that is its moral responsibility over, and then have to fund institutions and support groups and everything else that comes with it, including education, but nothing changes with regard to the problem. We need to fix the problem, and I see nothing in the Bill that does that. I hope that I am wrong and that, by the time that we get to the end of the Bill's process, there will be fixes in it. However, I do not see those yet.”
“The person who brought that to me quickly realised they did not qualify for that prize incentive. It must have been a lottery that was pooled every month, but because he was a Northern Ireland customer, he was excluded. I hope the Minister can address that issue. I corresponded with the Minister on this, and she said that she would introduce legislation. I hope that it is contained within the Bill and that the Minister can point me to the clause that will remedy that for Northern Ireland customers of all of the banking and financial organisations, so that they can avail themselves of everything that a bank's customers from Manchester or Bristol can. <BR /> <BR />I am sure that everyone here will say that the statutory levy will be a good thing, and so it will.”
“Most people who work in a bookie's enjoy their Sunday off. That maybe is the only common free time they have with their families, and, if the Bill goes through in this guise, the chances are that that will be gone for those people. Some people will make light of that, and some people do not care about Sunday opening. I do, and not just on religious grounds. It is about family, and it is about the dangers of gambling. I ask Members to see and accept that and to see what we can do about those clauses. <BR /> <BR />There is one issue I would like the Minister to address, and that is one that was brought to my constituency office, probably a year ago now. A local bank or building society offered cash prizes to people simply for being a branch member of that bank or building society.”
“I believe the heavy lifting will be done in the Committee, and I look forward to the work we will do there. <BR /> <BR />I will turn to some of the issues in the Bill. We could talk about all the things that are not in the Bill, and I will address some of those, but, straight away, I will say that we have what I believe to be a token gesture on Sunday trading and Sunday opening. People will know my views. I am a Christian. However, it is about much more than that, because the Bill gives people with issues and problems more time. It extends the danger period for those people who are susceptible. Whilst I get the argument that a lot of people now do this on a mobile, computer or even by telephone, the fact that we are opening up more opportunities to gamble does not sit right with me. <BR /> <BR />There is also the issue about employees.”
“I accept that, but I think the Department and the Minister here should push the parameters as much as they can not only to make sure that we have effective law and legislation but to ensure that we can make a difference to the wider UK psyche on gambling. I take the Member's point on board. <BR /> <BR />This is a massive issue, and for the Minister to say that there is not enough time so she will produce a Bill that is suboptimal and with which she wishes she could do more but cannot does not cut it for me. There are Departments that are producing top-quality Bills at this time. Bills can always be improved, but I see nothing in the Bill other than deregulation at a time when we really need to be tightening things up. There are good things in the Bill, but there are so many things that are not in it that I believe are needed.”
“I have given you experiences of the low end, where it does not take much money to get you into trouble, and of the high end, where people have lost hundreds and thousands of pounds through gambling. I see the Bill as a failed opportunity. The Minister said there was time pressure. We are coming to the end of a mandate, so of course there is, but there are still Departments in the Executive —.”
“I believe there should be a mass movement in the same way there was in the 1980s on tobacco advertising. I believe advertising in front of, during and at the end of games should be looked at by government.”
“They got annihilated; I will be honest. <BR /> <BR />The presence of that advertising, that micro targeting, is doing incredible damage. If you have someone with a tendency to gambling addiction, and they love their sport, and their blood is up, no matter what team they support, they will be watching that match. It does not have to be Tottenham to win. It could be Manchester United to win. It could be their favourite horse to win. It could be their rugby team to win. If you are that way inclined, addicted to gambling, you will take that bet. You will take it again, and you will take it in-game. You will bet on corners. You will bet on throw-ins. You will bet on first score, next score, last score. Those companies prey on sports fans and people who are addicted to gambling.”
“I can remember it being put to me, when all those young people should have been pushed out of an arcade in the late eighties and early nineties, that, "Surely they could not be of school age if they are here during school". That was the naivety — or maybe not — of some of the people who worked in or ran those arcades. There is a massive issue here. Does the Bill tackle it? <BR /> <BR />We know that the excitement around gambling and sport can attract and trap people. I am a Spurs supporter, so I am in a very vulnerable, fragile position today. Before the match started yesterday — the north London derby, no less — odds came up on the TV: Tottenham to win 2-1 on odds of a whopping 14/1. If anyone can work out the odds, you will find that, if you put £10 on that at 14/1, you got zero, because Spurs got beaten.”
“Yes, I certainly will, but let me make it clear that, when I talked about a punter, I meant an ordinary person who was also gaming and then went up the street and saw it as a further industry to gain a wee bit of money in order to feed the machines again. They took part in criminal activity, stealing stuff and produce from other shops, which has an impact on the high street and on that person once they are caught. There can be all sorts of ramifications further down the line — much more than just the gambling aspect — but I get the point that the Member makes, and there are some unscrupulous people. <BR /> <BR />There is the very fact that a school pupil can attend during school time.”
“A punter in the arcade headed up the high street and stole £5 or £10 worth of goods to give at a discounted price to the person who had lost their money, so that, when they went home to their parents, they could show what they had bought with their £5 or £10 that day.”
“I ran about with friends who were, most definitely, addicted to what, in those days, we called fruit machines. It was not about money but what it led to. Those young guys of around the same age as me and in my friendship group, many of them addicted to fruit machines, played machines called "Lite a Nudge" and "Copper Win". We are talking about a 2p or 5p deposit to play the game, but they used any little money that they had — a pound, a fiver, a tenner; not much more than that — that was given to them by their mother or father. The addiction caught hold to such an extent that they ended up missing school to go to their local arcade. <BR /> <BR />When they realised at the end of a Saturday or a school day that they had no money left and nothing to show for it, another industry was created.”
“They could have nipped out of other premises to try to catch a certain race or sporting event. For those people, it is a way of life. Many people manage that, and they do so quite well, to be fair. However, many people fall foul of gambling and fall into gambling addiction. They start to dig deeper and deeper. It destroys them, their lives and their families' lives. It destroys their livelihoods. It can destroy their health. That is what we need to legislate for. Simply welcoming the Betting, Gaming, Lotteries and Amusements (Amendment) Bill just will not cut it. If it is bad law, it just will not cut it. It needs to be different. <BR /> <BR />People have referred to the eighties and the previous legislation, from 1985, that governs gambling here. I remember being at high school during the late eighties, from 1986 to 1991.”
“In her opening speech, the Minister talked about the problem that we face in Northern Ireland, but she then went on to say that she is not the one to fix it and that it will be for someone else at another time and in the next Assembly. At a time when people need there to be an air of decisiveness, we ain't getting it in the House from the Minister, from the Department or in the Bill. That aggrieves me because I want to see the best legislation possible produced in the House. We ain't getting it. <BR /> <BR />I have mentioned the essence of gambling. We can all tell stories about loved ones and friends who are caught up in gambling. Many people gamble socially. If one were to walk into any high-street betting shop, one would see punters who go there, certainly to bet, but almost definitely to socialise. They could be there all day.”
“I fear that, on this occasion, the Department has left all the heavy lifting for the Committee.”
“I will apologise straight off to Members in the Chamber, as I have come lately to the Communities Committee and have attended only one meeting. It may be the case that the Committee members who are much more learned on the subject than I am will go into far greater detail than I can. What I bring to the debate on this major issue is life experiences and constituency work. When I read the Bill and reflect on some of those life experiences, the first thing that disappoints me about the Bill is that I see none of the essence of gambling in it. It fails in many ways. What I mean is that, when we look at any legislation, we need to produce the best legislation possible. A Bill will come from any Department, get its airing in the House and, if it passes, will go to Committee.”
“I thank the deputy First Minister for her answer. I have asked the same question of the Health Minister. Given the draconian nature of the emergency powers, the undemocratic harm that they do and the brutal impact of lockdown measures on mental health, suicide, self-harm and isolation of our people, what work have the Executive undertaken to establish the true cost of their undemocratic decisions?”
“Ballymoney United Ladies also has a youth academy, as does Ballymena United. They are bringing young ladies through to play football who would not have had the opportunity 10 or 15 years ago. We should encourage and support that in the Assembly — we should encourage team sports — and make sure that it is financed properly and appropriately so that young sports stars can flourish. The IFA should also consider investment in that aspect of youth sports and ladies' football.”
“This evening at 7.00, the Northern Ireland women's national football team will kick off against Latvia in a World Cup qualifier. That comes after the tremendous success of their 4-0 win against Luxembourg on Friday. They truly are an inspiration to all sportspeople, not least to young ladies who now wish to take up the sport. It is encouraging to see so many young people being able to partake in team sports. Recently, a new ladies' team was formed in my village of Broughshane — Raceview FC Ladies. Its first training session will be held on 24 September, which is this Friday night. That in itself is an inspiration for young people to get involved in sports. <BR /> <BR />Of course, there have been ladies' football teams in the North Antrim area, not least Ballymena United Allstars FC and, of course, Ballymena United Youth Academy.”
“<BR /> <BR />Clinicians, whether or not they go on the radio, should be respected for their opinion. They should not be ridiculed in any shape or form if they hold an opinion. It is an honest personal opinion that is worth giving.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. This is the second time I have intervened, so it will be the last. <BR /> <BR />There is confusion and a danger, Minister, that we fall into a trap when we deal with legislation. We can all say that organ donation is a good thing, but organ donation legislation can be anything: good, bad or indifferent. Our job as legislators is to make sure that the legislation on any subject is the best that we can produce. <BR /> <BR />I hear what the Minister says about taking the Bill to Committee Stage and having an open mind. Ultimately, with deemed consent, either it is in the Bill, or it is not. You cannot amend away deemed consent; it is the kernel of the Bill. If, in principle, you are opposed to deemed consent, even if you come with an open mind and an open heart, that principle will remain.”
“I believe that, if such a campaign were set in train, organ donations and the number of people registering to go on organ donor registers would be mighty — far greater than it currently is.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. He has sat and listened to the entire debate. He talks about the conversation. The conversation, even on his colleague Jo-Anne Dobson's Bill, was about deemed consent, and it was convoluted. A publicity campaign should be about organ donation and the positives and the gift of life that it presents. If you have not consented, it is very hard to present it as a gift. The conversation changes when it is wrapped up in deemed consent. It can distort the conversation at that point. In Wales, the publicity campaign for the promotion of organ donation is on a different scale from anything that we have talked about and anything that the Department has run in this country.”
“I thank the Member for giving way and appreciate her considered thoughts and words. I agree with her that all in the Chamber seek solutions. While the jury is still out and there is no proof of the effectiveness of deemed consent, we know from evidence throughout the world that public awareness and the provision of specialised nurses are the key drivers of organ donation. We should try to encourage and promote those elements. Public awareness and the provision of well-trained specialist nurses will convince people about organ donation. Those are the solutions that the House seeks.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. This could be a positive point, and I rely on the Minister's knowledge and hope that he will be able to contribute on it later. As far as I know, we have a very high rate of living donation, which should be applauded. The Minister might contradict me later, but I hope not. I hope that it is true. If so, we in Northern Ireland should all be proud of that.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. The debate has been good so far, and I say that to all the Members who have taken part. The Member talks about clinicians needing legislation in order to make their jobs clearer. I am not sure that deemed consent will do that. The issue is that family members and clinicians will still have the conversation at the time of the real, grave, pressurised trauma of a death. I am not sure the legislation makes that clearer. It makes it clearer that it is deemed consent and that we are all on a register until we opt out, but I am not sure that it helps the clinicians with organ donation at all.”
“I am not convinced that deemed consent is the way to promote and do that.”
“I do not really want government to be involved in that, to be honest. I do not want government to deem that everyone wants to be an organ donator, even though I hope and wish that they do. I can wish many things, but I do not want to presume anything. That is why I have concerns about the Bill. <BR /> <BR />I thank everybody for listening to me. I suspect I am in a minority, and I realise there are many people who need an organ and are struggling at this time. I hope and pray that every person on the list — there are over 100 — gets the donation and the organ that they require in order to allow them to live their life out fully. I hope and pray that that is the case and that as many people as possible register on the donor list, become an organ donator and give the gift of life to others.”
“When we balance the issue out, we need to talk about the balance; we need to look at the pros and cons. Again, I stress that I hope that I am wrong, but there are places close to here — France, I believe — where organ donations dropped due to deemed consent. <BR /> <BR />I have another worry that, when the default position of deemed consent is in place, it is the Government who deem that consent. There is evidence that suggests that, when a population does not trust its Government, organ donation can drop. I would not want to be in a position of relying on the trust of any Executive or Government, elected or otherwise, and for that to correlate with organ donation. I do not want to be there. I want it to be a single issue; I want it to be a separate issue; I want it to be a life-giving gift from one person to another.”