Paul Frew
North Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for that intervention. Nevertheless, there are concerns that I want to address. The Minister and the departmental officials will know that, even from the range of questions that I have asked. We need to make sure that we get the balance correct.”
“In the written and oral evidence received then, the Committee was advised of potential amendments that the Minister may table at Consideration Stage, including an amendment to remove the commissioner that is being considered in liaison with OLC.”
“That in itself causes some victims and witnesses bother, because they are in a system that they are not part of, which means that they do not get the support that they require. That can sometimes leave them feeling retraumatised, as though they have been put through the wringer again.”
“The Bill makes provision to offer those protections and provide clarity to victims that they do not have to face their perpetrator in court. <BR /> <BR />Members asked questions about a range of matters, including the independence of the office, the ability to review the performance of any future commissioner, the costs of establishing th…”
“I thank the Minister for her intervention. She was absolutely right to take that action, as it means that victims' voices are right at the heart of the matters under discussion. It is now obvious to us that that should have been done years ago, but it is good that it is being done now.”
“Officials explained that the Bill would legislate on the disclosure regime not to prevent an application for disclosure but to set out a process whereby the defence would have to show the relevance of the information that it was requesting. That is an important protection.”
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“<BR /> <BR />No more Connolly House interference. No more. We are the democratically accountable place in this country, not the army council, not Connolly House and not secretive and sinister figures in the republican movement. No more. This is the reform that we want to see. It is what the people deserve, because they want to see accountable and transparent Ministers being accountable and responsible for transparent and accountable spads, who then will liaise with senior civil servants, including grade 5s, permanent secretaries and everything else that goes with it. That then sprinkles down into a far better and bigger system, a brighter system, a better and more transparent place and something that we can all become proud of. That is what we want to see in Northern Ireland, and that is what this clause — clause 1(6) — does.”
“It is probably the only duty that a Finance Minister has, but he cannot even do that. <BR /> <BR />It is not a good place to be in to have secret spads, super-spads, unaccountable spads, and people who are not even called spads running spads. That is no place to be in. Moreover, they were liaising with our senior civil servants, including our permanent secretaries. Here we have a situation in which a permanent secretary ignores or goes over the head of the appointed spad to talk to a super-spad, a secret spad, a do-not-call-me-a spad, and that is the way in which that party has been running government here. That is the way in which civil servants have been conducting themselves. This clause does away with that, and is it not good to see it on this blue page? Is it not good that we will hopefully secure this clause in legislation?”
“Do you know something? Yes, we should all look at our own houses. Do you know something else? We have done so. We come to this Bill in the spirit of change and in the spirit of wanting reform. Do you know why? It is the right thing to do. I wish that the party opposite would take even a small bit of that reform seed. Would it not be great and mighty for the people of Northern Ireland to see that and not have one party hold this place back? <BR /> <BR />Here we have a Minister — a Finance Minister, no less — who had to seek approval from senior republican figures ahead of making key decisions. By the way, one of those key decisions was to bring a Budget to this very House. That did not happen, and it left Northern Ireland and the public in dire straits. What good is a Finance Minister if he cannot produce and bring a Budget to this House?”
“Even if I achieve nothing else today in the House, I have been able to get my colleague from North Antrim to quote scripture. Amen.”
“Here is the sinister thing about it. The Bill's sponsor has already mentioned his previous Bill. When the Bill sponsor brought a previous Bill that changed the functions of government and how it works and operates, we then had a party that actively went about trying to get by that law, trying to subvert the will of this House and trying to ignore —.”
“We heard about our Civil Service — in fact, the head of the Civil Service, no less — sending emails to other permanent secretaries saying that they think their Minister is not in a position to make decisions and that they have to go and speak and dialogue with others who are not democratically accountable, others who are not elected, others who have not been appointed and others who have no disciplinary code or standard to follow. <BR /> <BR />That is what the Civil Service has informed us of, and that is simply not good enough. It is simply not to be in this place of democracy. We should be a place of transparency. We should be a place of accountability. We should strip away anything that queries or questions that or that puts suspicions or doubts in the minds of our people. We should be completely transparent and completely accountable.”
“It is no way to go — no way to go — to have a figure, shadowy or otherwise, being able to conduct themselves in a sphere where there are serious decisions being taken on behalf of the people of Northern Ireland and not being accountable to democracy or accountable to a Minister but accountable to a higher place, even a secret place or a sinister place. No way should we in this House support anything that even smells like that. <BR /> <BR />What have we lived through? What have we learned over the last number of years? Well, it has been quite insightful.”
“Why should I fall under more serious rigour than a Minister of this country, no less? Why should the standards be different? Why should the investigatory procedure be different? Of course, we also very much support that. <BR /> <BR />Then we get to the issue around clause 1(6). I will speak to that. It says:”
“Special advisers do not only interact with their Minister, their political party and members of other political parties; they interact daily with the Civil Service. Why would it not be the case that you have some sort of standards and disciplinary code? I have no problems with that at all; in fact, I think that it is good. <BR /> <BR />Then, of course, we have the ministerial part of this. There is absolutely no reason why Ministers of the Assembly, who are in an Executive, should not be subject to standards. It is perverse to investigate a Member attending a fake graveside oration when standing beside that Member is a Minister who is not subject to a standards investigation. It is just bizarre. Ministers should be subject to the same disciplinary matters as a Member.”
“However, it may well be that, even within that Department, spads will have different expertise, and they will go off in different directions and do different things. That is not an issue. <BR /> <BR />It is right and proper that, with any job, there will be a disciplinary code. There will be a set of standards. Of course, clause 1 does just that. It states:”
“Again, the sponsor of the Bill has gone through this very adequately and helped my understanding, so I will not have to delve too much into that. The first six amendments are to clause 1. Why are clause 1 and those amendments so important? There is no reason why, if you have a spad — a special adviser — in one Department, and his experience and expertise are in that particular Department, a spad in another Department should have any say or control over them. That spad should be the responsibility of his or her Minister. That is one of the aspects of clause 1. You can understand why that would be the case when teamwork is involved: when you are in the Executive Office, and there are multiple spads. It is just good common sense to have some sort of direction and, maybe, even some sort of hierarchy.”
“Yes, I will, Mr Deputy Speaker. <BR /> <BR />On that Bill, even with the amendments, there was hardly any dialogue. On amendment Nos 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5, there was hardly any real dialogue or input from the Members opposite. I ask this simple question: why? If you do not like the spirit of the Bill, why did you abstain at Second Stage? If you do not like the spirit of the Bill, why did you not seek to amend it? Why did you not interact with the Committee and effect change at that stage, given that, today, we will vote on every single amendment and clause? Why did you keep shtum? One Committee member did not keep shtum, and I will get to that later. <BR /> <BR />Amendment Nos 1 and 2 affect clause 1.”
“It is no reflection on the Chairperson of the Finance Committee, who has done a sterling job — I will thank him now in case I forget to do so later — that there is a marked difference between the two. Do not get me wrong: when it came to the principles of the domestic violence Bill, which we debated last week, most of the parties definitely wanted legislation to be passed; however, with the functioning of Government Bill, that was not the case.”
“It is probably my favourite bit, and I like the scrutiny most, when I interrogate facts and figures. It is quite enjoyable and good when the departmental officials come to see us, and that is all part of the functioning of government that must be healthy and must exist. However, I am living through two Committees at present: the Justice Committee and the Finance Committee.”
“Of course we were going to support the Bill at Second Stage when other Executive parties abstained, and of course we were going to give the Bill a fair wind in a Committee process that would bring it out the other side, forged in fire, in a much better place and in much better shape. We have done that. <BR /> <BR />If every party in this place is not here for reform, what are they here for? If they are not here to make a positive change to the population, make people's life better and reform the country into something greater, what are they here for? The Bill is just one vehicle through which we can do that. It is just one small step. It is not even a big step — I am sure that the Bill's sponsor would agree with that — but it is a step in the right direction. <BR /> <BR />I enjoy Committee work.”
“We are all Assemblymen and Assemblywomen and are all entitled to table legislation. <BR /> <BR />We have also asked for fundamental reform of the Northern Ireland Civil Service. We have even asked for a review of the number of special advisers and how they are appointed and regulated. We have asked for greater transparency and improved record-keeping. We also acknowledge that the Committees play an incredible role in the work of the Assembly, and that role should be enhanced. Those are all objectives that my party has pushed for over many years, and they are the objectives that are in the Bill.”
“The party and I recognise that this private Members' Bill may touch on some aspects of reform, but it will not be able to cover it all, even though, with the best intentions, the Bill's sponsor has added "Miscellaneous Provisions" to its title, which was very useful. Sooner or later, Ministers will have to work on reform, and we would like to see that reform piece. <BR /> <BR />At Second Stage, I think, Mr O'Dowd commented that a private Members' Bill should not tackle the issue, but I say this: why not? Why should every Member in this place not put their hands to the wheel to make this place better? They are entitled to do that. They are Members of the Assembly and have a seat like everybody else, so why not? Why should it be left to the Executive or to Ministers in the Executive?”
“<BR /> <BR />I have enjoyed my time on the Committee for Finance looking at the Bill and getting into the nitty-gritty of it. I heard in the media and in commentary by some journalists that, because I sit on the Committee for Finance on my own with regard to the party Whip, I am not involved in some sort of reform agenda or mission: my party is up for reform. My party wants to see reform. My party acknowledges that mistakes have been made in the past, and it is up for dialogue and a conversation on reform to ensure that this place gets better and that we add and inject confidence into the system. In our party manifestos, going back a number of years, we have asked for the development of a Northern Ireland reform plan.”
“We all need to ensure that we are treated with respect and that democracy is as transparent as it possibly can be. <BR /> <BR />Is it transparent at the minute? It is as transparent as a brick, so we need to do something to reform it. If we have to do it step by step, small as those steps may be, we should all put our shoulders to the wheel to achieve that. I see the Bill as a small step in the right direction. It has increased its footage by the fact that it has gone through a Committee Stage and has been forged in fire, if you like. I commend most of the parties for doing the heavy lifting in that regard because it was very useful. As the Bill's sponsor has admitted, the amendments to the Bill, which, hopefully, will be passed, will make it a better Bill.”
“There is no doubt that every party and every Department in this place has a responsibility to pursue reforms that rebuild public confidence in the governance of Northern Ireland: the Executive and their decisions; the policies that they wish to adopt; the behaviour of Ministers; the behaviour of spads; the roles that spads play and the parameters within which they operate; the interactions between Departments, Ministers and spads; the interactions between Departments and Statutory Committees; the transparency of Departments; the information that is offered to Committees; respect for MLAs as individuals, when we ask questions of Departments; and respect for MLAs as they perform their important role on the Statutory Committees and even in the Chamber.”
“However, Standing Orders should be looked at because there is merit in an ex-officio member being on a Committee during Committee Stage of any private Member's Bill in order to afford the Committee that insight and link to the Bill sponsor. That will provide good government and good legislation, which is what we all want. <BR /> <BR />I sat through Committee Stage of the Functioning of Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill and have read it through in great detail.”
“No, there is absolutely no chance of that, but that was a great intervention. Thank you. <BR /> <BR />I will add to the comments from Mr Jim Wells, who, in an intervention on the Chair of the Committee, spoke about the fact that Jim Allister sits on the Finance Committee. While that was by accident, it was very useful. The Member was able to contribute in real time, hear the evidence in real time and engage not only with the witnesses but with the Committee in real time. That was advantageous not only to the sponsor of the Bill but to the Committee as a whole. I tabled an amendment that did not get past the Speaker's Table, which I accept 100%; of course I do.”
“This is the second week in a row when I am going to be —”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. How will the Minister and the Department manage the backlog, which I am sure is mounting, and how will that be rectified before school placement time, given that some of these children may well have to attend special needs schools?”
“Can the Member clarify whether that is now required, given his amendments and the changes to the junior Minister's spad only? Is clause 4(1) required?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I was going to raise this point in my contribution to the debate. Clause 4(1) states:”
“Will the Member agree with me that the Member who just made an intervention and who talked about democratic accountability was the very Member, at the Second Stage of this Bill, who did not want or see fit that private Members should bring legislation such as this?”
“Since EirGrid has owned SONI, there has been a sifting of £12 million out of SONI to EirGrid for cross-charging. EirGrid will not tell us what it is for, what it was charged on or what it paid for, and it hides behind its statement of accounts to Companies House. EirGrid uses a model, FRS 101, to justify that secrecy and lack of transparency. If we do not have a system operator that functions properly, is fit for purpose, is at full capacity and is truly and properly independent, we will fail, no matter what strategy we put in place. No matter what plan we have for the future, if we do not have a fit-for-purpose and fixed SONI, we will fail. We will all pay, every one of us, but mostly our businesses and heavy industry users. That will be catastrophic for jobs, business and the economy.”
“I entirely agree with the Member, I really do. <BR /> <BR />You can have all the energy strategies and plans in the world, but, unless you have a system operator that is fit for purpose, you will fail. What do I mean by that? The system operator here is the System Operator for Northern Ireland (SONI), and it has massive issues with independence and governance. That hurts Northern Ireland and will hurt Northern Ireland in the future. SONI has been before the Economy Committee only once. I must applaud my colleague Christopher Stalford, who tore them to pieces over the problems in SONI. <BR /> <BR />I will pick one example, as I know my time is short. SONI's owner is EirGrid. I have no problem with who owns SONI or with who owns the owners; it is the transparency issue that I have a real problem with.”
“Battery storage can be used to contain the energy produced, or that energy can be converted into hydrogen. That hydrogen can then be put into our bus stock and heavy goods vehicles, I suggest. I suspect that batteries are the way to go for small cars, but hydrogen is most definitely the way to go for buses and heavy goods vehicles. <BR /> <BR />There are times in the energy sector that you stay still and watch and monitor what happens across the world. With hydrogen, I suggest to the Committee and the Minister that now is not one of those times to stop and look. We should go for it, as we have the tools and wherewithal available, and Wrightbus is in the lap of Northern Ireland.”
“<BR /> <BR />I must speak about my constituency and Wrightbus's work with hydrogen. There are massive energy issues, but carbon is not necessarily the issue, as a good bit of that has been resolved through the use of renewable energy. Where the use of carbon has to be fought is in the areas of transport and heat. By bringing in hydrogen and producing hydrogen buses, two birds can be killed with one stone. Growth can be created in the transport sector that reduces carbon, but wind is also being utilised, and that cannot currently be done, as it cannot be put into the grid because of the inertia issue. We can produce as much wind as we like, but, unless there is a system to back it up and the inertia to keep the energy stable, it cannot be used. There are many ways to do that.”
“I welcome the micro report and thank the Committee for its work. Energy will always be a massive piece of the economy portfolio. I also pay tribute to the Minister, who has met me on the issue. <BR /> <BR />Let us face it: energy is a massive issue for any devolved jurisdiction, simply because we all pay for it. The problem that we have in Northern Ireland is that our heavy industrial users pay more for energy because of the network charges and everything that goes with them. That has been a massive problem over the years and has led to job losses not only in my constituency but across Northern Ireland. Energy costs have been ranked in the top five reasons that businesses have left these shores. They are therefore a massive issue, and I thank the Committee for keeping it on the boil.”
“I assure the Minister that she is failing people when she cannot use two decent side rooms in Ballymena to have oral hearings for PIP and ESA. A laptop or a desktop will just not cut it, Minister, when you have vulnerable people who are not able to speak or to address other people across the phone or through computer technology. You are failing in that regard, Minister.”
“How much money did the Department for the Economy bid for, and what percentage of that bid has it received?”
“Minister, what use is the statement to the House when it is completely devoid of any realism and completely disconnected from the real world? What use is the statement to the single mother of three who runs a hairdressing salon and has not received one penny of support from you?”
“It is something that we need to see more of with regard to legislation. I welcome that. I am here to do business; I am here, no matter what the hour, to pass legislation that will make a difference to people's lives. I thank and commend every single one of you. I also commend the Department's officials. We give them a hard time at times. Sometimes, it is deserved. We will always be robust. It is nothing personal. Thank you for the work that you guys do in the Department. Without you, the Bill would not have been produced, we would not have been able to scrutinise it and we would not have law at the other end.”
“The child is missing out on a parent, and that is not right. When a parent is prepared to give loving attention, it should not be the case that they just cannot get access to their child. That needs to be addressed. <BR /> <BR />I support this. It is the Domestic Abuse and Family Proceedings Bill. The second part of that is a very important aspect, and we should support it. I thank everyone who took part in the debate. I thank everybody who has stuck around. I thank the Minister, who has had to spend all of that time in the Chamber; we can nip out for a time and take breaks, but she cannot. I praise her. I also praise the Chairperson of the Committee for his diligence and work in guiding the Committee through all of the work. I am proud to acknowledge the work of the Justice Committee and the Assembly tonight. We should be proud of it.”
“I am talking about men because they have talked to me and told me of their experiences. It is heart-wrenching; it really is. They deserve to have their experiences told. They deserve to have it placed on the record in Hansard that we hear them and will do everything that we can. <BR /> <BR />We have been given assurances by the Minister and the Department that parental alienation is riddled throughout this Bill, in the same way as coercive control is throughout the Bill. That has to be the case to give those people comfort, to reassure us and to enable us to monitor it through reporting, the collection of data and independent scrutiny. We will look out for and be mindful of that. We need to correct this problem for everyone involved, men and women, because it is very grievous. It is not only about the victim; it is about the child.”
“Of course they are, but men seem to believe that they are always ignored in this regard. It may be because we have so many support groups out there. It may be that, sometimes, our language around this issue is loose; I am as guilty as anyone. Most of the people whom I have engaged with on the issue of parental alienation over the last couple of years have been men who do not have any convictions for domestic violence and have not committed domestic violence. I have no sympathy for those who have. A lot of men have not conducted themselves in that way, and they grievously miss their children. They need to be part of their children's lives. They need to raise their child and be given time with that child. This is so soul-destroying for a man or for any person.”
“I have no sympathy for anyone conducting this behaviour and then trying to gain access to a child. This should reassure and give succour and comfort to Women's Aid and all the support groups out that assist people going through the court process. However, the flip side that I have not mentioned until now is the issue of parental alienation. Some dispute that it is real, but I believe that it is. I see it. I know and have talked to people who have experienced it. Even while we have been having this debate — Doug also raised it — we are getting emails from men who, having not seen their children in years, are in despair. Lockdown has inflicted even greater misery on those people.”
“I will be brief because of the late hour. These are very important amendments, and this is a very important part of the Bill. This is a world that not a lot of people see until they are in the middle of it and it has a massive impact on their life. It is scary. Going through any court process is scary. All the baggage and all the domestic violence and family issues here mean that this has an even greater impact. I welcome these amendments. <BR /> <BR />I will talk about amendment No 27. I asked questions on this, and officials reached out. Through the Minister, I pay tribute to and applaud the officials for reaching out to explain some of these amendments to me because they are quite technical at times. It is important that the court shall have regard for this offence.”
“I am happy to clarify that position and to correct myself. However on annual training, it is fair. Doug Beattie will have massive experience, and I have a wee bit, of the annual training that the Royal Irish go through to hone their skills, keep them fresh and keep them alert on the presence of the standard operating procedure and, as is the case here, the law. There is no reason why we cannot have a rigorous training routine. It does not necessarily have to be overwhelming. It can be an annual occurrence that keeps everybody on their toes and alert, and keeps things fresh in their mind. That is what we have been asking for. Training, along with the independent oversight, data collection and the reporting on the operation of the Act, is vital. This is key legislation. It cannot, and should not, be ignored. We need to keep on top of it.”
“I get the Minister's point that the police do not train on any particular offence and that this could set a precedent. I say, "Why not?" If an offence is new and fresh, and if it is a new concept, we can see how the judicial system could struggle with it.”
“That is why it is so important that there is training to ingrain the legislation into the mindset of the services that will use it. It is vital that the police, and others, get adequate training. Independent oversight is also important in ensuring that the legislation is being enacted and used, serving the public, serving and protecting the victims, and putting the perpetrators behind bars. That is why we need training and independent oversight. <BR /> <BR />I move now to the report on the operation of the Act. This is too important, cutting-edge and new for us to let it go into the ether when it leaves the House. We need to keep an eye on it, keep on the ball and ensure that the legislation is fit for purpose and works to serve the people. I would have doubts about that being the case if the training were not sufficient and routine.”
“Why is the parent always the last to know? The police ignored that legislation. I am glad to say that it has been relaunched and reinvigorated and is being promoted and advertised on the internet.”
“<BR /> <BR />What do I mean by that? I have experience of this. I brought to the Assembly the child protection disclosure scheme. It was my amendment to, I think, the Justice (No. 2) Bill, or maybe the previous Justice Bill; I cannot remember. I brought that amendment, and the child protection disclosure scheme was passed by the House . It is fair to say that that legislation was ignored by the PSNI. It went nowhere. I kicked up, asked questions, met and fought with the police, and there was also a change of position in the PSNI. After that, two police officers, one male and one female — it is not fair to name the officers, one of whom has moved on — picked it up and ran with it. They relaunched the child protection disclosure scheme through which parents get to find out information about someone who could be a threat to their child.”
“OK. Thank you, Minister. It is great fun being a conduit between two Members; it really is. <BR /> <BR />That is why Operation Encompass is so important, and that is why we had to put it into the Bill. I am glad that the Minister supports that, and we will no doubt work with her to strengthen it at the next stage. <BR /> <BR />We support the Minister on amendment No 19. Amendment No 20 is about guidance on data collection. We heard earlier from Mr Allister about his angst at this new offence. It is vital that data is collected and that we can use that data in good ways. It reassures all of us that we will be able to test this legislation to ensure that it is fit for purpose. However, there is absolutely no doubt about it: if the training is not fit for purpose, this legislation will not be fit for purpose either.”
“I thank Miss Woods for that intervention. Again, it is very helpful.”
“I thank the Minister, because it does make it clearer. When you are going through all this in your head, you tend to miss things — I do anyway — so I thank the Minister for that clarification. <BR /> <BR />There is no doubt that it is a good thing that these services can engage and give as full a picture as possible to teachers and educators. Given the child's experience of adverse behaviour and everything else over the night before, the week before or the month before, getting into trouble in school can only cause them to spiral into even deeper depths. We need the educator to be informed so that they can give the child some support. That is what we need to do, because the child is at the centre of all this legislation. Does Miss Woods want to come in?”
“I thank the Minister for her input and her engagement with the Committee on this. There is a real spirit of coordination and teamwork, and, at the end of this, we will have a very good piece of legislation, because it is the little things that matter. <BR /> <BR />When a child who has just witnessed a horrendous scene in the night, or even the hours, before school time, the teacher knows that that child may not come in or may be late, may not have their uniform on or have their homework done and that the child's behaviour may not be appropriate. You can understand all the reasons why that would be. We talk about joined-up government. In the real world, people need joined-up services.”