Paul Frew
North Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for that intervention. Nevertheless, there are concerns that I want to address. The Minister and the departmental officials will know that, even from the range of questions that I have asked. We need to make sure that we get the balance correct.”
“In the written and oral evidence received then, the Committee was advised of potential amendments that the Minister may table at Consideration Stage, including an amendment to remove the commissioner that is being considered in liaison with OLC.”
“That in itself causes some victims and witnesses bother, because they are in a system that they are not part of, which means that they do not get the support that they require. That can sometimes leave them feeling retraumatised, as though they have been put through the wringer again.”
“The Bill makes provision to offer those protections and provide clarity to victims that they do not have to face their perpetrator in court. <BR /> <BR />Members asked questions about a range of matters, including the independence of the office, the ability to review the performance of any future commissioner, the costs of establishing th…”
“I thank the Minister for her intervention. She was absolutely right to take that action, as it means that victims' voices are right at the heart of the matters under discussion. It is now obvious to us that that should have been done years ago, but it is good that it is being done now.”
“Officials explained that the Bill would legislate on the disclosure regime not to prevent an application for disclosure but to set out a process whereby the defence would have to show the relevance of the information that it was requesting. That is an important protection.”
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“However, even if we go to a multi-year Budget, how can we ensure that the same things that we do annually will not happen on a three-year basis? That should give us more latitude to input a long-term strategic vision to those difficult decisions, but there is no guarantee. If the model is not fixed, how do we move forward? <BR /> <BR />Today, you will hear about the broken Budget process from many Committee Chairs. The process is broken, and it does not allow Committees to scrutinise properly or input strategic thought. That is a massive problem. My colleague Paula Bradley, the Chair of the Communities Committee, outlined that problem, as will others today. I congratulate my colleague Paula on her new role as deputy leader. I wish her all the best in the future.”
“Out there in the real world, mums and dads just have to get on with it and deal with the hand that they have been dealt. They look to us to give them hope, inspiration and confidence. <BR /> <BR />The same can be said about waiting lists in our Health Department. We have lived through a pandemic. There is no doubt about that, and it was probably the most challenging time in our political careers. However, in the heat of that battle, where was the drive and vision to fix things? There is little evidence that we have achieved anything in our health service other than treading water and sinking deeper into the mire. When will it change? When can we stand up and say to our people, "We can fix this. Have confidence in us. Here is the hope and inspiration". That said, it is difficult not having a multi-year Budget; I get that.”
“Where in the Budget, in the drafts or new version, do people find hope, inspiration and confidence? <BR /> <BR />I heard a number of colleagues in the Chamber talk about the hard times and the difficult role that the Finance Minister will have with a standstill Budget. May I let you into a secret? The people out there, who have just about managed in the past year, are not standing still; they are going backwards. They are losing capital quickly, they are spending their savings at an unbelievable rate, and they do not see hope in this document. Where is the inspiration? Where is the confidence for those hard-pressed families? I smile a wry smile when I hear Ministers — the Finance Minister and all other Ministers — talking about standstill, challenging budgets.”
“although, at times, he sounded more like Chewbacca. He alluded to another truth: we all need the wisdom of Yoda in times of stress such as these. <BR /> <BR />Once again, the Budget highlights the overwhelming financial contributions that the Government make to Northern Ireland. That is an undeniable fact. The financial benefits of our membership of the UK are invaluable to public services and the economy in Northern Ireland. The additional contributions to fund the pandemic response underlined that. That must be put into context. The UK has experienced the largest fall in output for more than 300 years and will not return to pre-crisis levels until at least quarter 4 of 2022. No doubt, that will mean some economic scarring, which will lead to unemployment levels rising in the coming months.”
“It seems that nothing ever changes. We all have the same frustrations and raise the same points, yet nothing seems to change. I must say that it was quite refreshing to hear Luke Skywalker in the corner”
“First, I raise a certain truth in the House. When it comes to Budget debates or legislation, it is clear that:”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. Is there a strategic pathway out of this as to which of the 100 locations that she mentioned should get development funding first? Does she agree that funding in itself will not cure the issue and that we may have to take another look at how NI Water functions and how it is governed?”
“I thank the Member for giving way and for the positive way in which he has conducted himself, as has everyone, in the debate. Does he agree that those attacks were not only on the individuals but on justice itself and that it was to undermine justice that those people were slain?”
“— asked a number of questions. Who pulled the strings? Who ordered the killings? Who knew what and when? If only Sinn Féin would open up and tell us the truth.”
“<BR /> <BR />As a political party aspiring for power, Sinn Féin cannot expect the Government in power, or any Government for that matter, be it a British or an Irish Government, to be on a higher plane than itself or to set a level higher than it sets as a political party. Whilst I will fight tooth and nail for truth and transparency, that goes across the board. I appeal to Sinn Féin as a party to tell us what it knows. Mr Kelly, a colleague across the way —”
“We know from numerous security reports and personal accounts that the IRA and other terrorist death organisations were heavily infiltrated by informants and agents. That fact alone is why so many people are alive today, and it is the single biggest reason why the IRA was defeated. That is an undeniable fact. With that in mind, I will ask this: what about the victims of terrorist violence? What about the many innocent people who were gunned down on their doorstep, at their work or travelling home from work and whose families have never received justice, a trial, a conviction or even the truth?”
“Consideration of whether to grant a public inquiry in this case must include consideration of all the other unresolved cases. It is not, on its own, good enough to suggest that attention should be on this one, albeit very serious, case, simply because of suspected collusion by security services or British intelligence or individuals within.”
“Is it right that the House can select individual cases for special treatment when so many families are still grieving their loss, impacted day by day, with no prospect of justice? With no prospect of justice, they have no prospect of truth, and that is just as harmful. <BR /> <BR />I say that because I believe that, at the source of the motion, there is hypocrisy from Sinn Féin. We saw Sinn Féin's refusal to cooperate with Smithwick or any other legacy investigation. I ask the parties that purport to occupy the middle ground why they would place more significance or importance on one case or another, instead of all the cases that remain unsolved. <BR /> <BR />Every family and every victim should be treated equally. Every person involved in wrongdoing must be held accountable in a fair and even-handed way.”
“The murder of Pat Finucane was an abhorrent and appalling act that could never, should never and will never be justified. We recognise the devastation of that loss for the family, and we do not wish to add to anyone's pain. The Finucane family, like so many others, deserve justice. <BR /> <BR />This particular case has had Weston Park, the Cory inquiry, the de Silva report, the offer of public inquiry legislation, which was rejected, and, most importantly, a criminal trial and successful conviction. There were other murders. Are we in danger of creating a hierarchy of investigations if we do not remember all the victims, all the unsolved murders and all the investigations yet to be concluded? <BR /> <BR />I think today of the 211 RUC widows and of the victims of La Mon, Kingsmills, Bloody Friday, Teebane and Narrow Water.”
“Thank you, Minister, for your answer to my question. To get some sort of comparison and context for those figures, will you supply numbers for previous years?”
“I thank the deputy First Minister for her answer. Given that hospitality has paid a high price to protect people's health and will need interventions well past reopening, does the Minister support Hospitality Ulster's modest request to establish a ministerial cross-departmental working group to oversee its recovery? If so, what will that look like?”
“It pains me that it cannot obtain support across the House, as that sends a message. If we do not recognise the definition that most Jewish people have put down, it could be construed as antisemitic. That is a harsh thing to say, but it is true. <BR /> <BR />Who would dream of telling another race, colour or creed that how they live their lives, their experience of discrimination, or their definition of that discrimination, is wrong? That would not be tolerated. Why should it be tolerated with the Jewish community? It is wrong. <BR /> <BR />I have been to the death camps and have seen what evil can do. We need to recognise it in our community, in our country and in ourselves and try to do something about it. That is where we will start and succeed —”
“Of course, we should start in our home place and with ourselves. That is very important. <BR /> <BR />What strikes me about the debate is that victims will tell you about their lived experience and how they feel intimidated, discriminated against, excluded, undermined and victimised, but there is something fundamentally wrong when you do not listen to one of those victim groups, its definition, how it feels and its lived experience. We should listen to all victims who have been wronged in this lifetime and throughout history. The definition of how they have lived their lives should be the definition that we look to when we try to define what is meant by wrong. <BR /> <BR />That is why it is important that so many people have defined their lived experience with what we have in the motion.”
“<BR /> <BR />I had the privilege of visiting the concentration camps and death camps of Auschwitz and Birkenau. It rocks you to your core. If you go there with a mindset of understanding and learning, it will rock you to your core. It hits you like a ton of bricks when you realise that mankind can be so evil. That is more our default position than peace, tranquillity and comfort, so it needs to be worked at constantly. <BR /> <BR />It is not just the evils that are inflicted on the Jewish community; it is about all the races and peoples who have been tortured, even despised, throughout the ages. The Jewish people are one of those. If you treat one of us badly, you treat us all badly. Surely that is a mantra that should be known worldwide and that we need to commit to in eradicating all injustices throughout the world.”
“Peace and contentment are not default positions. They have to be worked at. Edmund Burke also taught that history is not simply a forgotten past but an active inheritance. The cultural genome of a people forged in response to the agencies of the past remains intimately present in the DNA of a society. Society connects the visible and the invisible world. <BR /> <BR />When I think through my lifetime, what scares me most is the fact that understanding of history can be very shallow. People's mindset — I include myself in this — can be ignorant of history and of the facts of history. That scares me, because, even in our living history and the history of our generation, there are people who attempt to rewrite history, change fact and alter truth. It should not be tolerated. It frightens me.”
“I support the motion before us today. I welcome the debate, which has been very good and informative. A lot of gems have come out of the discussion so far, which I welcome. <BR /> <BR />It was Edmund Burke who said:”
“I thank the Minister for her comprehensive answer. I appreciate it. The lockdown has impacted greatly on unfortunate victims and other people, and they are being placed in further danger because of it. Support groups are having to work through operational matters in a more arduous way because of the lockdown. Is it time, given the Minister's answer about the cross-cutting nature of and all-embracing impact of domestic and sexual abuse on victims, that we strengthen the Programme for Government to assist victims in some way and, if nothing else, raise their awareness and that of Departments?”
“Minister, the Executive have agreed to allocate £12·3 million to the Department of Justice for PSNI staffing levels. Can you present to the House the impact that that will have? Will staffing levels remain static, or will there be an increase in police numbers?”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. It is most disappointing and incredibly sad that the House has not been able to find common ground and that the amendment tabled by my party and the genuine concerns motivating the amendment were not accepted. Nonetheless, my party voted against the motion because our very serious concerns were not addressed, not because we support conversion therapy. We do not.”
“I applaud the Minister's statement. I applaud the efforts made by the Minister and the Department over the course of this very difficult year. I also applaud the Chairman's fine speech. <BR /> <BR />The Minister talked about the mistake in his written statement. I hope that it was a typo because, if not, it seems that we have lost over £20 million somewhere. Maybe the Minister can clarify how that mistake happened. <BR /> <BR />The Minister talked about £51 million to extend the LRSS scheme but clarified for the House that that is only £51 million of £230-odd million. Will he outline what other factors and spends are contained within that amount?”
“— that result from it. That is what the protocol brings. It brings higher prices and fewer choices, and we, in this party, are opposed to that.”
“I thank the Member for his contribution. That was very helpful. We will work with anyone who assists in trying to reduce the burdens and the grave damage that the protocol does to our people, businesses and workers. I think that it was Stewart Dickson who talked about higher prices and fewer choices —”
“OK. I will give way to Matthew O'Toole if he wants me to.”
“The Member has the right in his contribution — I am sure that he will do this when he sums up — to explain to the House what Sinn Féin is at when it talks about its database and the information that it holds on voters, who are workers and family members, and how that complies with EU law. That is something that we will wait to hear.”
“I will not take any lectures from Sinn Féin, especially when it says that the EU is so good, yet we see that its Abú database of voters breaks EU law and article 9 of the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR).”
“The irony in all that is Sinn Féin's condemnation of the change in interchange fees when it has endorsed protocol arrangements that put a far more significant and costly burden on businesses and consumers in border communities. In fact, the rise in those fees may have a more adverse impact because of the protocol. Our consumers and businesses could well be forced to look to the EU rather than to the UK for their market for goods. That has had a perverse effect and that is because of the protocol. <BR /> <BR />I have not understood for a long time why, on the EU, the SDLP has been consistent over its history, but Sinn Féin and the republican movement have not. Throughout their tragic and violent history, they were always anti-EU until the point where they could see more division.”
“No, I am not going to give way. Maybe I will give way to the Member in time. He knows that I usually do. <BR /> <BR />What that looks like is this: people across the way are worried about the flea on the wild bear when the wild bear is charging towards us. That means the implementation and the removal of the grace periods of the protocol, which will do us in Northern Ireland grave damage. That is nothing to do with Brexit. That damage will come from the protocol — pure and simple. There were a million ways to leave the EU.”
“<BR /> <BR />One issue that frustrates me is that, even though the motion is about an issue that needs to be resolved, the parties opposite, which have talked about the damage of Brexit, will not mention the protocol or the fact that they are pushing for its rigorous implementation, which is doing grave damage to our consumers and businesses.”
“Yes, we did shape the mindset, and we did add to the debate in the House of Commons, as was our right. It is the Government's decision on how they enact legislation. Whilst that is a problem that we need to raise with our Government and the EU and that we need to come to some arrangement on, there are always going to be those issues. Let no one say that leaving the EU is not a fundamental change. Of course it is. The very nature of the EU means that leaving it will always be a fundamental thing, given that it is an authoritarian state. That is one of the issues.”
“As my colleague has already outlined, the amendment improves the motion; hence, we will not oppose the motion if amended. I hear from the utterances across the way that those Members also support the amendment, so I can see that the House will not divide. That is probably a good message and a good omen on an issue that needs resolved. <BR /> <BR />Having listened to some of the debate, I am frustrated that Members use an issue such as this to fight a battle that has already been lost — Brexit. There were a million ways to leave the European Union, and implementing the protocol was probably the worst of them.”
“<BR /> <BR />The women's team has had an amazing achievement. I wish them all the best in the coming year. They have made us so proud, and we will support them 100%, as the green and white army does. I think we are the best fans in the world, and now we have one of the best women's teams in the world, which has made it to a major tournament. When you look at the scale and depth of the challenge, it is remarkable. It is our best achievement in our state's history.”
“We should support them in all their endeavours to make sure that what they experience next year is the best that it can be. It will be out of this world. That experience will live with them for all of their lives, and not only their lives but their families' lives. That is an amazing achievement. <BR /> <BR />For the green and white army, to go to another tournament is beyond our wildest dreams. I remember France. I remember Mexico. I remember Spain, although I was not there — I was only a young boy — but I remember France. Not only that: my two boys were there. My daughter did not go, unfortunately. I begged with her to go, but she did not go. She did go to a Northern Ireland match later on, and she said, "I get it now, I really do", because of what the green and white army brings to the international team.”
“I bestow hearty congratulations on our Northern Ireland international women's team for what it has achieved. I put on record here that I believe, and I do not think anyone will contradict me, that this is the greatest achievement that a Northern Ireland national team — a group sport team — has achieved in the history of our state. <BR /> <BR />International football is different. It is different from ordinary Association Football. It is about the pride and the passion. It is about playing for your shirt, your country and your teammates. That brings a wealth that no one can describe unless they have been out on that field of play. Those players who have achieved this probably do not realise yet how big an achievement it is, but they will next year, and they have that to look forward to.”
“Minister, thank you for your answer. Your commitment to legislate in this mandate is really appreciated. <BR /> <BR />Article 168 of the Betting, Gaming, Lotteries and Amusements (Northern Ireland) Order 1985 prohibits promotional non-skill prize draws linked to a product. Will the legislation take into consideration the fact that UK-wide companies undertake promotional prize competitions linked to the purchase of a product and that Northern Ireland consumers will be disadvantaged as they will not be involved?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. He makes a valid point regarding policing and the political party, Sinn Féin. Days before the funeral, there were warning signs at the wake. I think that 400 people attended the wake of the deceased. Surely, that should have raised sirens for the political party of Sinn Féin and the PSNI.”
“When Sinn Féin was promoting and organising travel arrangements, speaker systems and crowd control, and negotiating with the PSNI and inserting its Sinn Féin plan, law-abiding citizens could only give their loved ones a small, humble send-off for fear of fine and penalty. <BR /> <BR />Sinn Féin cannot be seen to be above the law. It has corrupted the democratic process of the restrictions and it has corrupted the police actions. It has corrupted the actions and determinations of the PPS. It is a corruption that cannot be tolerated. This is not 1930's Nazi Germany and nor should our people have to live in that world.”
“All those families and individuals who sought advice were all too aware of the restrictions. Yet, the very people who formed the restrictions and scrutinised and created the law make excuses that they did not understand it. That is why those people who had to make difficult decisions and choices now live with regret and guilt. <BR /> <BR />This has always been about supremacy. When mourners were locked out of Roselawn, Sinn Féin members were parading in their thousands down the street and organising sham funeral orations in Milltown — a place where the remains were not even interred.”
“<BR /> <BR />Some 12,000, multiplied many times, is the immeasurable number of people who have been impacted by the actions of Sinn Féin. It is not only anger and frustration that have gripped the people of Northern Ireland but a deep sense of sadness and depression. More hurtful and impactful than that is that Sinn Féin has spread a cloak of regret and, dare I say, a sense of guilt over all those people who buried loved ones without giving them the funeral service that they deserved. All those families who sought guidance from undertakers and from the local minister or priest about what could and could not take place. All those families who had to choose which brother or sister, cousin, nephew or niece could attend the funeral. How cruel is that? How cruel are these restrictions? How cruel is Sinn Féin?”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. I thank my colleague for his intervention. <BR /> <BR />When you physically carry your loved one on your shoulder, arm in arm with your brothers and your cousins, out of your home place and along your local street, on their last journey, it has a profound significance. Witnessing the burial of a loved one, no matter the weather, has a lasting anchoring in the mind to the place and time: a connection that will never be broken as long as you live. It is in that context that we find ourselves in this horrendous situation where a political party, Ministers in the Executive and MLAs in this place corrupted and copper-fastened that sense of loss in people who have been deprived of that relief.”
“In Northern Ireland, indeed the whole island of Ireland, bereavement and the process that is encountered around that is extremely important. The wake brings such comfort to so many loved ones who will be in shock and going through trauma. Looking back on my own life, wakes were critical in helping to comfort me as a child with the acknowledgement of, the coming to terms with and comforting each other on the mutual loss. Then there would be the family friend in the corner telling the room a funny story about the past. At that point, the laughter in amongst the tears has the most healing qualities imaginable. There is comfort from seeing so folk turn up at the funeral of a dearly missed family member. They do not have to say anything; they just have to be there. You are physically carrying your loved one on your shoulder.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Given everything that you have said to my colleague and given that you have stated your position, based on guidance, is it wise for you to have the Chair in this debate?”
“Social services were a barrier and a hindrance to that family, not a help. I know that that is not the Minister's position, but, if justice had been sped up, that would have helped to get through those barriers. Minister, can you provide hope to people through your statement that, along with the other Ministers you talked about, you will be able to fix this to a point where justice is sped up so that, if vexatious claims are made, they will be resolved more quickly, allowing people to get on with their lives. That man just made a claim for access for one child and was put into a nightmare scenario for many years.”
“I thank the Minister for her positive statement, and I hope that it will give hope to many who are going through the family courts. <BR /> <BR />Minister, your latter point is important. A man was going through court to gain access to his daughter, and the mother made what were proved to be false claims of child abuse that led to the man being removed from having access to and living with the two other younger children that he has with his current partner for nearly two years, leaving one parent to cope with two very young children. The child abuse claims were widened to the other parent, and that put in jeopardy the lives of the two young people living with that parent. They faced the real dilemma of being put into foster care or a care home. For nearly two years, those people were trapped in that nightmare.”
“I thank the Member for raising the brain drain; my colleague across the way also raised it. There is a perverse state of affairs here where employers, perhaps tech firms, can establish a base in Liverpool or Bristol and can encourage young people from here to move to England to avail themselves of a Job Start scheme and be based there instead of Northern Ireland.”
“Why is it that the party opposite seems to think that the scheme is not worthy and that they do not need to support it? <BR /> <BR />I plead with the Minister, and I thank her for her attendance today. Please, Minister, roll out the scheme. Lift the scheme from GB if you have to. Let us get it on the ground as soon as possible. No more excuses of lockdown or other excuses. Get it rolled out. Get young people employed, assist the employers and the firms and let us get Northern Ireland back to work.”