Paul Frew
North Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for that intervention. Nevertheless, there are concerns that I want to address. The Minister and the departmental officials will know that, even from the range of questions that I have asked. We need to make sure that we get the balance correct.”
“In the written and oral evidence received then, the Committee was advised of potential amendments that the Minister may table at Consideration Stage, including an amendment to remove the commissioner that is being considered in liaison with OLC.”
“That in itself causes some victims and witnesses bother, because they are in a system that they are not part of, which means that they do not get the support that they require. That can sometimes leave them feeling retraumatised, as though they have been put through the wringer again.”
“The Bill makes provision to offer those protections and provide clarity to victims that they do not have to face their perpetrator in court. <BR /> <BR />Members asked questions about a range of matters, including the independence of the office, the ability to review the performance of any future commissioner, the costs of establishing th…”
“I thank the Minister for her intervention. She was absolutely right to take that action, as it means that victims' voices are right at the heart of the matters under discussion. It is now obvious to us that that should have been done years ago, but it is good that it is being done now.”
“Officials explained that the Bill would legislate on the disclosure regime not to prevent an application for disclosure but to set out a process whereby the defence would have to show the relevance of the information that it was requesting. That is an important protection.”
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“No way would we want to see anybody disadvantaged in any shape or form. It is about getting to that point and making sure that the model is the best model for Northern Ireland and its citizens.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for your ruling. I appreciate the Minister's intervention, but here we go again. We have an Executive Minister trying to dictate to the Committee how it does its business. I am getting sick of it — I really am — and I will bring that point up later. <BR /> <BR />I fully agree with the Minister that we need 100% compensation and that it is set by law, but it is very clear that there are many ways to get to that point, and that has been proven on these isles. Let us see whether our model and our infrastructure offer the best way of obtaining 100% compensation, which is what we all strive for. I do not think that the Committee will do anything that may damage that potential, because every single member of the Committee has recited the line about 100% compensation during the debate.”
“I will finish my point and then I will give way. <BR /> <BR />The Committee has to look into all that. The Department of Health will not have done scoping exercises or impact assessments on how this works. It will have, rightly, determined that it is the remit of the Department of Justice to bring forward the Bill. Although I do not want one Department to step on any other Department's toes, there seem to be blind spots as to the impact assessment and the impact of the Bill on all other spheres of life in this country. I will give way to the Minister, if she still wishes me to do so.”
“I thank the Minister for her intervention. I am glad to be a conduit in this place for a good debate. When I can, I facilitate that. It is good for Members — even Members who are not on the Justice Committee — to understand the issue because, ultimately, the Assembly chooses how we proceed and what votes succeed or fail. <BR /> <BR />The Minister rightly states that she cannot consider the impacts for all the other sectors, public services and Departments. However, the Committee has to consider that. The Committee has to look at the impacts on the Department of Finance, the Department of Health and the work of GPs.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. He is perfectly right. That is the balance that we are trying to strike between under-compensation and overcompensation and how that impacts every single citizen in this country. The Committee needs to be very careful about how it proceeds. We have other issues and concerns, and I know that the Minister has stated —.”
“We must know whether a further burden is being placed on any of our public services or Departments. We must know how to balance that burden because it will impact budgets.”
“On that basis, and with its knowledge of that happening, Scotland is, with its legislation, at risk of having a burden placed on its devolved Administration. That might be well and good. It might be that it was the decision that the Scottish Parliament took.”
“It has been very good for us to hear first-hand from officials about the mechanisms of the Bill and to try to understand, as best we can, how they actually work. I would hazard a guess that it has been a learning curve for all members. However, we are pretty good at getting to grips with things. I have every confidence that, going forward, the Committee will be able to scrutinise the Bill well and properly. <BR /> <BR />However, questions were posed to the Minister and officials that caused concern and alarm. They were just questions that we were able to put to them. There is an issue where it seems to be the case that the Scottish legislation specifically recognises that there is a risk of overcompensation.”
“That is the fundamental question that I believe the Justice Committee must look at and scrutinise, because we are in a place on these islands where the one model has not fitted or been taken forward. We have differences of opinion, and we have different systems in England and Wales compared with what we have Scotland. All that may well have massive implications for all those jurisdictions going forward. We in the devolved Assembly need to be sure that the process that we take forward is the one that fits best for Northern Ireland and all its people, not least those who have been injured and deserve compensation. <BR /> <BR />I thank the Minister and her officials for their engagement with the Committee. They have been very good and diligent in coming before the Committee to talk about the Bill. I welcome that engagement.”
“<BR /> <BR />With regard to the content of the Bill, I welcome the Minister's restating her commitment to the legal principle of 100% compensation. That is what we strive for. It is what we need to see. We will try to achieve that when we scrutinise the Bill and to ensure that we do not do anything that would upset that 100% compensation rate. It is vital. That is the balance that I was referring to when I took an intervention from the Member opposite. The balance is 100% compensation. That will bring assurance to every sector and every person who is involved. That is what we have to strive for. I commend the Minister if, indeed, she restated that she will commit to the principle of 100% compensation. <BR /> <BR />This question then arises: are we sure that the model that the Minister brings forward will actually achieve that?”
“I thank the Member for her intervention and for putting that point on the record. She is correct. If premiums go up it will affect not only businesses and people but public services. That is a massive issue that we should be mindful of. <BR /> <BR />There is no doubt about it; the Minister is responsible for making the decision on how she sees the Bill going forward. That is her right. It is the Committee's place, role and duty to scrutinise the Bill and the direction of travel. That is the job that we should be up for. The Minister asked us to be timely and quick. I will talk about that a wee bit later. She is right about that. She has my word that we will try to get through the Bill as quickly, efficiently and effectively as possible.”
“People have been let down in the past, but that is through no fault of the Minister or officials; that has been down to circumstances that have been beyond our control. However, we are here now, and I am glad that the Minister has been able to bring the Bill forward. <BR /> <BR />She is correct when she says that it is six clauses long. It is a short Bill, but it is very complicated and will have an enormous impact on people, not least those who have been injured and whose lives and families have been affected grievously. It will have an impact on insurance businesses and the cost of insurance. That might seem like a small matter in comparison to someone's life-changing injuries, and I would argue that it is, but it will still have an impact on every single citizen in this country, and we have to be mindful of that.”
“The Damages (Return on Investment) Bill is a very important Bill, which will have a massive impact on people's lives, not only at a given point in time but for the rest of their lives. Those people are in a far less fortunate position than the rest of us because they have suffered grievous and life-changing injuries that will affect them and their dependants for the rest of their lives. In some cases, families with young children will be involved. We need to ensure that those people, who have been injured through no fault of their own, are compensated and looked after to the best of our ability. <BR /> <BR />We welcome the Bill in order to change the rate and the infrastructure, and it is essential that that happens.”
“What lessons have been learned during the pandemic about the importance of digital inclusion for different sectors, including the elderly and the socially disadvantaged? How might they be best protected when they are online?”
“I regret to inform the House of the absence of the Chairperson, Steve Aiken. I am sure that the House will join me in wishing Steve all the best in his recovery, and we hope that it will not take too long. <BR /> <BR />I thank the Minister for his statement. I applaud Diane Dodds, the Economy Minister, for the work to roll out Project Stratum in this sphere. Of course, that came about through confidence-and-supply money, and it is good to get that on the ground. <BR /> <BR />The Minister talked about his Department's digital inclusion unit. How does the unit promote digital inclusion? Will he tell us a little more about the related range of projects and partnerships that he mentioned?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. He must show me where that rock pool is, because I am down in the Mournes quite a bit. On the point about health, he raises a massive issue. Of course, last year, 95% of health bids were successful, yet we have not been able to move forward with transformation, which, to me, is crucial, even in a time of crisis. That shows that something is going wrong with the spend that Health is getting.”
“I thank the Member for granting me the intervention. As the Deputy Chairperson of a Committee, I am alarmed to hear of the experiences of the Chairperson and his Committee. Did he write to the Executive Office asking for an explanation as to why the Committee did not receive any papers? I am genuinely interested.”
“No, I will not, because I think that the Member was irresponsible the last time that he made an intervention, when he tried to put words in my mouth. I will allow anyone to make an intervention in the House, but we need to keep it real, folks. <BR /> <BR />I went through some of the Departments for which I feel that there is grave weakness in the Budget Bill. That weakness needs to be resolved, if not through the Bill, through monitoring rounds and by getting to grips with the issues and problems that our society faces in the coming weeks and months. They are mighty. They are grave. We need the Executive to step up and support our people like they have never supported our people before so that we can get out of this and find a road to recovery. That should be sooner rather than later.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. At no time, did I utter those words. The Member has to be careful when he makes an interjection that what he says is factful. In his intervention, he did not mention the real, deep impacts that children have suffered this year, not just in education terms but in societal terms, mental health terms and mobility terms: all those aspects. He did not mention all that children gain from being in school with their peers, being taught by teachers, with a principal to guide them. He did not mention other staff, the caretaker and the dinner ladies. All those people are part of a family, and children have been separated from that family for too long. Let us therefore see what the Executive produce today on opening up our schools and allowing —.”
“They are the future of this country, and have we not let them down so badly in the past year? They will never get that year back. In fact, it is more than a year. Who knows what is ahead of us? I do not, however, see any evidence that we will support children with this Bill.”
“They have to try to rescue the situation for those year groups that have struggled this year, for those year groups that will struggle next year and for those year groups that are looking at pending exams. How will we support them? How will we help them? How will we assist them? I do not see how we will do that in this Budget Bill. <BR /> <BR />The Member was right to interject about the Department for Infrastructure, but the Department of Education is the same. Education made 56 bids, of which 42 were COVID bids and 14 non-COVID bids, which was the highest number of non-COVID bids submitted by any Department in this place in the past year. Less than 50% were successful. That is no way in which to treat our children. Let us therefore see the evidence in the Budget Bill of support for our children.”
“It would have made much more sense, and the Assembly would have been able to scrutinise the Executive's priorities better. <BR /> <BR />As I have outlined, there are massive concerns around infrastructure and the transformation of the health service, but what about education? The education of our young people has been destroyed this year. They will never make that time up. You cannot be educated at home in the same way in which you can be educated at school. Parents are not teachers, so they cannot provide the same service, especially if they are working eight hours a day from home. It is impossible. <BR /> <BR />As I said, those children will never make that time up, and I am not even sure that we should be telling them that they are going to make it up. The Executive have to do something about it now.”
“We really should have been in a position to publish a new Programme for Government to complement the Budget.”
“No, I will make progress, because I risk the wrath of the Deputy Speaker. I have tested his patience for long enough, so I will move on. <BR /> <BR />Throughout our Departments, it is vital that, maybe for the first time, there is a collegiate approach to Budget-making and that we remove the silos. We are doing this Budget in a vacuum, because we do not have an up-to-date Programme for Government. Really and truly, those two should run line by line, because they are parallel processes that complement each other. You cannot really do one efficiently, effectively and sufficiently without the other, so to set a Budget, even a flat Budget, without a Programme for Government that outlines your priorities is not the most effective and efficient way to do things.”
“That is just the job that we are in, and we have to make sure that we make decisions to try to save people's lives. <BR /> <BR />It has been a horrendous year when some people have died before their time. I get that — I really do — but there is no point then in putting further pressure on our population and industry when the science and the data is not being published for us all to see. Let us face it: there has been a fundamental weakness, because MLAs only get to hear about what is happening on the news at the same time as the rest of our population. We are not privy to the Executive's actions or to what the data suggests. As I said, the only time that the Executive published the data, they were torn to pieces because some of the decisions had no logic.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. Again, we await with anticipation information on the speed of the actions that the Executive will announce today on how we are going to get out of this crisis and on the pathway to recovery. Let us see how fast the Executive can operate to support those people. <BR /> <BR />The Member is right to point out that this has been an awful year for illness due to a virus that we knew very little about this time last year. We knew of COVID, of course, because it is not new, but we knew nothing about COVID-19, and we had to learn quickly. There have been actions taken and mistakes made, and I am not going to be too hard on people who have taken action and made decisions, even if, at some point, they were the wrong ones.”
“I want to see proof in the Bill of how we are going to support people. How are we going to support hairdressers who were deprived of earning a living? How are we going to support the single mum of two children who, if it had not been for the help of an aunt, would not have had enough food for her children to eat? That is the reality of today.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. In the Budget Bill, I see no way of supporting people who have suffered due to the lockdown. The Member made a good point on lockdown in his intervention. He suggests that it was the only way to deal with the pandemic. There are many ways to deal with a health pandemic, and there have been many ways used over the last 100 years to deal with pandemics. However, lockdown was not in that book and was not a factor over the last 100 years. There are other ways of dealing with pandemics. I am not saying that lockdown was the wrong way, but, again, let us see the science and the data. <BR /> <BR />The only time that the Executive published the data on lockdown, they were cut to pieces because it showed that there was no logic to some of the decisions on the lockdown.”
“Will the party opposite, including the Finance Minister, take its share of the blame and bear its share of the burden of the impact of lockdown that the Executive have imposed on our people and businesses?”
“There is absolutely no doubt about the impact that lockdown has had on businesses, communities and people. It is important that we recognise that. We will not get daily statistics, as we do with the COVID pandemic, on how people have suffered economically, mentally and physically during lockdown. Nonetheless, the pain and suffering are there. I see very little in the Budget Bill to reflect the reality of what lockdown has done to our people. Many parties in the House, mainly the party opposite, will blame Tory austerity for all the ills that occur over this period. There is no doubt that cutting our cloth to suit our Budget was always going to be painful, but think of the damage and potential damage from lockdown.”
“If they were to do so, would it be so outwith the bounds of reality to ask the victim-makers — Sinn Féin, the political party of the Provisional IRA — to pay some of the burden of the victims' pension? This is a massive issue. Victims need to be remunerated and compensated for the pain that they have suffered through terrorism. <BR /> <BR />I see nothing in the spring Supplementary Estimates about such provision or the creation of any headroom. I see nothing in the Budget Bill to give those victims succour as they go forward with the remaining part of their life. The Assembly should not tolerate that. We should no longer tolerate failure in that regard; we should get this money to the victims. <BR /> <BR />One of the massive issues in the near future will be lockdown damages.”
“<BR /> <BR />The party and the Minister opposite — I will support him 100% — will push to get that money in whatever way that they can. However, the truth in all of this is that, while we shout for the British Government to pay up, we have to remember who the victim-makers were. Some 60% of those victims were created by republican terrorists, not least the Provisional IRA, to which the party opposite is linked. Right across society, all those bombs and assassinations had a massive impact on people's lives. <BR /> <BR />Every party in the House has stated that the religious orders and the institutions that were involved in the historical abuse cases should pay up.”
“I know that there is a debate and argument to be had with none other than the Secretary of State, Mr Lewis, who continues to claim that the pension will cost £28 million in its first year. We know that the Government Actuary's Department has estimated that the first year will cost between £70 million and £145 million. The total cost of the scheme could be £1·2 billion. That money must come, and I agree with the Executive that it must come from the British Government. However, we cannot wait any longer to remunerate the victims for the pain that they have suffered and will continue to suffer. They have been affected so badly that they have not been able to work in the way that we have been able to work. These innocent victims of terrorism have not been able to progress their life in the way that they should have been allowed to do.”
“I will tell you why: they, too, are innocent victims who have had injury and pain brought upon them through no fault of their own. If we can make provision for victims of historical institutional abuse, surely we can make provision for victims' pensions.”
“Do not get me wrong: health has been in the grip of the pandemic, at the cutting edge, at the tip of the spear and on the front line of this crisis, but we still have to transform the service, even in the midst of a crisis. Do you know something? There will be a crisis next year and the year after that. We will always find an excuse not to transform our health service. It is vital that we grapple with that now because every week that we waste affects our people, not just in death but in the value of living. That is very important. <BR /> <BR />I will mention the victims' payment scheme and my grave concerns that it is not in the Budget. There is a legal duty on the Executive to cater for and fund pensions for victims of terrorism. It is comparable to the provision in the TEO budget for historical institutional abuse issues.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. It is not tolerable at all. It is simply not acceptable, in this day and age with the society that we have, the crime rates as they are, the terrorist threat as it is, to have that number of officers. Nobody who has looked at and studied the police has ever come to that total or established that figure. That is why it is important. If the Executive get to the point of shedding a number of police officers, we have a massive fundamental question about whether we are protecting our people and making sure that they are safe. That is a fundamental aspect of government no matter where you are in the world. <BR /> <BR />Where is Bengoa's health transformation? What progress has been made? What progress is in the Budget Bill? Where can we see that transformation?”
“We should get to the point, sooner rather than later, where we have multi-year Budgets. We can then look at long-term projects, because, let us be clear, when you build a hospital or a school with massive infrastructure or new roads, it takes longer than a year. Therefore, that has to be planned very carefully. It still feels as if we are going backwards. <BR /> <BR />In New Decade, New Approach and in Patten, 7,500 police officers were promised. Those are peacetime figures, but we are falling short. Even in this Budget, we are told that we could lose police officers; numbers could go down. That is totally and utterly unacceptable. That in itself will add to pressures elsewhere.”
“I will try not to go down a blind tunnel, Mr Deputy Speaker. Members can see where there could be opportunities with the interconnection of our energy supply, which, again, is vital infrastructure. We need to resolve issues with the System Operator for Northern Ireland (SONI) so that it is truly independent. <BR /> <BR />That brings me to another point about multi-year Budgets. It will be very hard for an Executive, as holistic as they could be, to spend money effectively and efficiently if we do not reach the point of multi-year Budgets. It is vital to get to that point. I do not blame the Department of Finance or the Finance Minister for the issue because it is not his problem. He can work only with what he has been given. It is an issue for our sovereign Government.”
“When I hear about a tunnel or a bridge linking Northern Ireland to GB or Scotland, I do not think only of the physical infrastructure. I think of the opportunities that it brings for trade, mobility and energy supply interconnection.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. Again, he made a valid point about how we can progress infrastructure. Of course, he will know about the DUP's confidence-and-supply arrangement, and I am sure that he will applaud and thank us for that. It brought in a lot of money for infrastructure across the Province, even for internet access. His constituency will benefit greatly from that, and I will take another intervention from the Member if he wants to thank the DUP for that work. <BR /> <BR />There has to be a balance and cost-effectiveness in every piece of progress that we make on infrastructure.”
“That is not a reason not to do those things. I will give way to the Member again.”
“It will take a holistic approach, and I am not sure that any work, or as much as should have been, has been done on it this year. That might be because of the pandemic and the crisis that we have been in, but that is only an excuse.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. He made that point well. We have experienced it all in North Antrim, and Armoy is not the only place where it happens. Some people may not be aware that there is now a blockage on investment where they live. If some of those residents looked to open up a business or factory, they would soon find that they would be completely impeded. <BR /> <BR />It normally affects housing, which is massive for people, but it also affects jobs, employment and prosperity. It affects all those things. It is a massive issue that we need to get to grips with. I believe that it will take the Executive as a whole to sort it out. It cannot be left to one Department in a silo, a number of Departments in silos or a Finance Minister on his own.”
“It is important, and I am sure that, in our constituencies, we are all experiencing and finding issues with NI Water and waste water systems.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. That is a point well made, and I am sure that the Finance Minister will tackle and grapple with that in his response.”
“Yes. I thank the Member for his intervention. I raised that point yesterday. It is not that I want to see an axe grind between the particular Minister and her party and the Finance Minister, because the Minister and her party can defend themselves. However, it is clear that the Department for Infrastructure made 40 bids last year. Of those bids, 34 were COVID-related and 33% were successful. Having looked at the figures and data, I know that the Infrastructure Department made multiple bids over and over again, which explains some of that. I am not for one moment saying that there should have been a 100% success rate for that Department, because there is a role for it to play and it all has to be attested, but those figures are striking. I see that the Member wants me to give way again.”
“It is not just waste water plants but includes housing developments and businesses, and I can see the evidence of that, very much so, in my constituency of North Antrim, where I know of developers not being able to select a certain site because of the waste water issue. That is dynamite for our people when we are looking to attract jobs, investment, employment, business and profit but are being stopped in our tracks because of an infrastructure issue that needs to be dealt with not today, not next week and not next year, but three years ago, five years ago and 10 years ago.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am sure that the Chairperson of the Infrastructure Committee will go into this in detail, but I have a real concern — not for the future but for the present day — about NI Water and the infrastructure and capacity, especially in respect of waste water. It is a massive issue, but, for a lot of our constituents and our population, it is under the ground and under the radar, and they do not yet see the potential blockage — pardon the pun — that we will all face. <BR /> <BR />It is not only about the fact that NI Water is not funded efficiently and effectively — of course, as an organisation, NI Water badly needs reform — but it is about the stopping and blocking up of every construction and every development in our system.”
“There is a real danger of handing money back to Treasury when it could be spent here in an efficient and effective way when our people are crying out for it and crying out for support. It is important that we spend as much money here as we possibly can for the benefit of our people. <BR /> <BR />There are some aspects that I wish to go into in detail. This issue seems to recur every time we speak on a Budget debate or a financial motion. There is a real fear that, if we are not standing still, we seem to be going backwards on many issues that were important to our people and to the Assembly last year, the year before that and the year before that. Some of those issues and problems are big beasts. They are massive to grapple with and will take a massive amount of funding.”
“It is vital to get that message on record and to get their concerns and fears on record, and I hope that the Finance Minister will listen to those fears and concerns, not only today and through the various stages of the Bill but throughout the year, because there will be information flow today that could well be of some use come the monitoring rounds. That is vital because, as the Chairperson said, it seems that we rely heavily on monitoring rounds, even with a one-year Budget, to move money about, not least in the year of crisis that we have just come through. That is not necessarily a negative, because you do not want Departments to cling on to money that they may not spend.”