Paul Frew
North Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for that intervention. Nevertheless, there are concerns that I want to address. The Minister and the departmental officials will know that, even from the range of questions that I have asked. We need to make sure that we get the balance correct.”
“In the written and oral evidence received then, the Committee was advised of potential amendments that the Minister may table at Consideration Stage, including an amendment to remove the commissioner that is being considered in liaison with OLC.”
“That in itself causes some victims and witnesses bother, because they are in a system that they are not part of, which means that they do not get the support that they require. That can sometimes leave them feeling retraumatised, as though they have been put through the wringer again.”
“The Bill makes provision to offer those protections and provide clarity to victims that they do not have to face their perpetrator in court. <BR /> <BR />Members asked questions about a range of matters, including the independence of the office, the ability to review the performance of any future commissioner, the costs of establishing th…”
“I thank the Minister for her intervention. She was absolutely right to take that action, as it means that victims' voices are right at the heart of the matters under discussion. It is now obvious to us that that should have been done years ago, but it is good that it is being done now.”
“Officials explained that the Bill would legislate on the disclosure regime not to prevent an application for disclosure but to set out a process whereby the defence would have to show the relevance of the information that it was requesting. That is an important protection.”
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“In particular, the Committee welcomed officials’ acknowledgement of the leading role of the Finance Committee in producing a coordinated report reflecting the considerations of all Statutory Committees. <BR /> <BR />Over the coming weeks, once the timing of the Budget and Main Estimates is known, the Committee will consider its approach to coordinating Budget scrutiny across Committees in a standard, coherent manner that will help to facilitate Committees in fulfilling their statutory role and responsibilities for Budget scrutiny.”
“Every Committee member who was present expressed dissatisfaction with the process, but, in the end, the Committee came to the conclusion that it could only agree to confirm that the Bill proceed under the accelerated passage procedure, taking full account of the prevailing circumstances and without prejudice to the detailed level of consultation that the Committee will expect on future Budget Bills. <BR /> <BR />In considering future financial scrutiny, the Committee questioned departmental officials about exploring the process and timescales for forthcoming Budgets. It welcomed their commitment and assurances that views from the Assembly will be sought as early as practicable and that there will be regular and meaningful engagement with Statutory Committees.”
“However, as the Chairperson mentioned yesterday, in the absence of a functioning Assembly, the level of consultation with the Committee on the public expenditure proposals was far from what the Committee would expect during a conventional Budget cycle. The Committee deliberated on the matter for a considerable time before coming to an agreement to grant accelerated passage to the Budget Bill under the requirements set out in Standing Order 42(2). The Committee took into account the level of consultation that it would expect during a normal Budget cycle; the constraints imposed by the prevailing circumstances; and the adverse impact of withholding authority from Departments to incur the spend on the additional resources that had been granted in-year.”
“That required the Executive to agree to manage this in 2020-2021 since our capital spend is fully committed for this year. During oral evidence, the Committee noted that headroom of £18 million was already factored into the Estimates and, therefore, no change to the spring Supplementary Estimates was necessary. However, perhaps more notable was the late notification of the Barnett consequentials from Her Majesty's Treasury. Officials stated that they were not able to recollect a later time in the financial year when Treasury made changes of such magnitude. <BR /> <BR />The Committee welcomes the limited engagement with the Department on these issues.”
“At the Committee meeting on 19 February, departmental officials provided oral evidence and answered questions on the Budget Bill, including on issues relating to a number of Departments. As the Chairperson pointed out in yesterday’s Supply resolution debate, the scale of the changes resulting from the normal reallocations through monitoring rounds combined with the in-year technical changes will have, in some cases, resulted in significant differences between the opening and closing resource and capital allocations of Departments. <BR /> <BR />The Committee also noted the Minister’s written statement to the Assembly highlighting late changes of £18 million of resource arising from Barnett consequentials that the Executive agreed to allocate for 2019-2020. For capital, there is a corresponding reduction of some £52 million.”
“Standing Order 42(2) states that accelerated passage may be granted for a Budget Bill, provided that the Committee for Finance is satisfied that it has been appropriately consulted:”
“The Chair is not able to make it this morning, which is an unfortunate development. I will stand in on his behalf, as any good Deputy Chair would. I have his back. However, I beg forgiveness from the Chamber. It is not very often that I am dictionary-correct when I speak, and I feel that I will be susceptible to error today having just read the speech before me. Please bear with me and give me that wee bit of latitude. <BR /> <BR />As we have heard, the Budget Bill provides statutory authority for expenditure as set out in the spring Supplementary Estimates for 2019-2020. The Bill also includes the Vote on Account, which allows Departments to incur expenditure and use resources in the early part of 2020-21, until the Main Estimates are voted on by the Assembly in June.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way on this very important point. I do not want to play politics, but the point that I was trying to raise was about doing things differently. When we talk about the Vote on Account for 2020-21, that is 45% of next year's expenditure. That is not small beer. That is a fundamental slice of the Budget for next year. We debate that here and then move on to an Estimates period. By that point, it is a fait accompli. We will have sleepwalked into that decision without having seen the detail necessary to scrutinise the Budget properly.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. His colleague talked about the hard job that a Finance Minster has, and I agree with her. The Minister has a difficult job, but how much more difficult is that job when a Finance Minister cannot even bring forward one page of a Budget, like your past colleague failed to do for this Chamber?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. She raises a valid point about community pharmacy. The report published, I think, in 2017 was for 2011, and the people who provide a very good service to our population have been cut adrift. They are trying to work with business plans that are so outdated it is unbelievable, yet that is one of the decisions that could be made that would help those people.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Does he agree with me that if you keep adding a wish list of projects and red lines into the fiscal system without having a clear pathway to find the money, that truly makes us a basket case, and then, of course, Westminster takes the attitude that it does?”
“It is time that this regional Assembly stood up for itself and started to make the tough decisions that are required to make our people's lives better.”
“Can the Minister say that that has happened under his watch? I know that he is only into his post, but the previous Finance Minister could not even bring a Budget to the House. There were months of delay, and, eventually, the place fell without a Budget in place. What way is that to treat the people of Northern Ireland? What way is that to treat the House that represents the people of Northern Ireland and the Committees that are meant to scrutinise the work of all Departments? We could not even find a Budget to put on top of a Programme for Government to populate those outcomes and indicators. <BR /> <BR />We have a shameful legacy in this place, whereby Ministers did not stand up to their responsibilities and ran away from the difficulties of this place. I say, "No more of that". It is not business as usual.”
“Of course, that is part of the job, but the introduction for the Department of Finance in the 'Northern Ireland Spring Supplementary Estimates 2019-20' document states:”
“Look at the money that is not coming here that could be. Look at the debacle around RHI and the Northern Ireland (Regional Rates and Energy) Act and the money that we cannot draw down, the money that businesses cannot draw down to heat their premises and the money that is left sitting there. Those are decisions that we will have to tackle sooner rather than later for the benefit of our people. <BR /> <BR />I do not want to see business as usual in this place; I want to see a change. I want to see an era of decisionism like we have never had before, because our people deserve it. It is not good enough. It is not good enough that we would send the Finance Minister to the Exchequer to protest and try to get more money out of the British Exchequer.”
“If we take more hard-earned cash from our population to put into faltering systems that are antiquated and are no good to us, it will be like a household hearing that there is a hosepipe ban and deciding to fill the bath, but forgetting to put the plug into the plughole. That is how bad it would be, how ridiculous it would be, for us to even suggest revenue-raising powers or more powers being devolved. That is a nonsense and we should not be in that space. We have not functioned properly in this place, and even when we were functioning, we did not make the hard decisions that needed to be made. <BR /> <BR />Look at it right across the board. It is not only about the money that we get but the money that we could have. Look at the money that we are not spending on financial transactions capital.”
“Then there is the hardest question of all, which we have probably never got answered. I have been an MLA for 10 years and I have never really had this answered. Where are we getting the money from? It is not good enough to complain that we are not getting enough money from the Exchequer. That will be an eternal truth that we will always have to deal with. It is not good enough either to say that we should have the courage to raise revenue ourselves, because I will tell you now: the way this place has performed, I would not like to see us getting more revenue-raising powers. What we need is reform, and only then should we consider raising revenue.”
“<BR /> <BR />I said that we cannot get back to the way it was or to business as usual and that there has to be a sea change. We need an era of decisionism. I have said this before in this Chamber: we need a period when decisions will be taken for the benefit of our people. Mr Muir talked about cans being kicked down the road. I see along the horizon and it feels like there has been a kerbie bin cowped from the last named storm and all the cans are flying about all over the place because we have so many of them to pick up. When are we going to start? <BR /> <BR />We must ask ourselves four fundamental questions. What must we do? What must the Executive do to make this place better for the population of Northern Ireland? Within that, there are two questions. Can we afford it? Can we afford not to do it?”
“However, we are now in this weird situation where we are debating financial transactions that have already taken place. Worse than that, we have 318 pages of detail on decisions that have already been taken, but we have three pages of detail on the 45% of moneys still to be spent in the Vote on Account. It is unacceptable that this Chamber has been furnished with three pages. Do not get me wrong, the detail is at the Committee, and the Committees have furnished the Finance Committee, but, unless you are privileged to be on the Finance Committee, this collective Chamber will not have full sight of that, and that is a fundamental problem for debating and scrutinising and being accountable to the people who elect us to do a job. Three pages for 45% of the annual budget for Northern Ireland — billions of pounds.”
“That has left us in dire straits and has left our Departments in dire straits, and it left the responsibility to the NIO — the unaccountable NIO — and the unaccountable Secretary of State to make budget decisions for the devolved Assembly because a Finance Minister could not, would not and did not bring forward a Budget to this place to help furnish the funding that the people desperately needed. <BR /> <BR />What should take place? We should actually see the Budget workings from the Finance Department from April/June of any given year for the next financial year. That should be worked on over the summer period and should then go out in draft form in September to be consulted upon. Then, in December/January, we would be faced with a Budget that could be prepared to go forward months in advance of when it is actually needed.”
“Why are we in this unusual position and what should happen? We are in this unusual position because of three years in which we were not able to do our job. Those three years cost the people of Northern Ireland a lot of money. Worse than that, in September 2017, the then Finance Minister refused and failed to bring forward a Budget that could then go out to public consultation. That Budget never appeared. When all the Committees were screaming for budgets to compare and contrast with the draft Programme for Government at that time, that Budget never came forward. The following months were September, October, November and December, and in January this place finally crashed. Was a Budget ever going to be delivered by the previous Finance Minister? I doubt it.”
“It is a privilege to follow Mr Muir, a lot of whose comments I agree with. I applaud him for his words. We are in a very unusual position. We are in a position in which we have stretched the integrity of the Finance Committee to the point at which it has to show contentment that it has scrutinised the process, when, in fact, none of us has. I applaud the Departments that furnished each Committee with their bids and details around finance. The Finance Committee received that information, but we have not had time to scrutinise the detail in the way in which we should. There is a great fear that, although we are all back in the Chamber, it will be business as usual. Business as usual will just not cut it any more. We need to see change and decisions being taken that will positively impact on the people of Northern Ireland.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Does he agree that, if we raise revenue to fund those antiquated systems as they are, the money will be wasted and go down the drain? Reform must take place.”
“The Minister mentioned funding and the NIO. She will know that the vires regarding the decision on separated prisoners in our prison system rests with the Secretary of State. Does the Minister agree that the burden of paying for the separation of the Prison Service should be placed at the NIO, shadowy as it may be, allowing for that money to go into front-line services in the prisons?”
“Yes, it is correct that we should do revaluations more often to allow businesses to change in a smaller way. Given the fact that some in my constituency could well see rate increases of 600%, is it too soon to roll out a transitional relief scheme? Could it be used in order to remove the shock and trauma that businesses will face if they experience increases like that?”
“I go on to my third point. If we want to have a sound energy policy, we need a suitable system operator for Northern Ireland (SONI). I do not believe for one moment that we have one at present. I believe that SONI is a shell of its previous self and is not capable of making sound energy decisions on behalf of the consumers of Northern Ireland. Before we go making energy policy, we need to make sure that the machine below it — the machine that will implement it — is capable of conducting that policy as we see fit. It could be party policy to have one wish or another, but unless we are informed and given the correct reports and the correct information, we are in a very bad place. I fear for the future if we do not get it right this time, because we will get only one more crack at it.”
“Before we make any decisions in this place, and before the Executive make decisions, we need to be informed about what has taken place, and I am not sure that any of us are in that position. None of us has yet shone a light into the energy branch as to what went on in the years before we got to this place. <BR /> <BR />I also suggest that Members look up the work that the Economy Committee did on the Northern Ireland-only ROC, where I believe that Department officials tried to mislead the Committee on what Whitehall and other Ministers in Westminster were expecting of us at that time.”
“<BR /> <BR />I hark back to the decision that Secretary of State Karen Bradley made, bringing in the Northern Ireland (Regional Rates and Energy) (No. 2) Act, whereby the tariffs of the RHI scheme were stripped. That brought great hardship to recipients, the farming community in particular, especially poultry farmers, whereby they are facing a dilemma such as the industry has never faced before. <BR /> <BR />Are we going to leave them hanging in that position? It might be good, sound political policy for any party to want to scrap the RHI scheme but, before you make that decision, have you read the Cornwall review? Have you read the Buglass review? Have you even read the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee "raw deal" report?”
“It is not good enough that this place functions; we need decisions to be taken and taken quickly. <BR /> <BR />For us to be able to make decisions, we have to be informed. We have to ensure that, when we make decisions, they are the right ones for the people of Northern Ireland. I worry and fear for the state of our Civil Service and some Departments in this place. <BR /> <BR />Do not get me wrong: there is some great expertise around Civil Service-land, and there are some shiny, fine cogs in what I believe is a broken machine. It should be our task to make sure that that machine is fixed and running smoothly. I cite three examples, because if we are to make tough decisions on these big political issues — one of them being climate change — we need to make sure that we are taking the right steps.”
“How refreshing it is to hear so many maiden speeches today. We should all be thankful that we are here debating these issues. We have been out of this place for far too long, and it has been a disgrace. <BR /> <BR />With this seat comes a lot of responsibility. With a five-party Executive now in place, the Assembly becomes much more important and critical, as does the work in our scrutiny Committees. We need an era that we have never had. We need the Executive to step up with courage and bring to us an era of decision like we have never had. <BR /> <BR />MLAs must hold their nerve not only in scrutiny but in difficult decisions that must be taken for the benefit of the people of Northern Ireland. That has been lacking for many years in this place.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. I agree with everything the Minister has said about support for farming, for productive farming and for hill farmers. The Minister will know that we have woefully low forestation. Does the Minister agree that that has to be looked at, that we need to raise the number of forests and trees that we have here in Northern Ireland, and that forestation in the hill country helps the Northern Ireland population with planning and flooding issues?”
“I also thank the Minister for his statement and congratulate him on his appointment as Finance Minister. I too give him this commitment: we will work constructively together in order to make lives better for the people of Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />Will the Minister explain in detail the reasons why the Executive have £150·8 million of ring-fenced financial transactions capital DEL unallocated and therefore lost to the Executive and, by extension, the people of Northern Ireland? Has that amount anything to do with the Minister's party colleague, the previous Finance Minister, walking out on his job without first putting in place a working budget?”
“That is not the sort of society I want my children to live in. I ask Sinn Féin and the republican movement to wise up.”
“I do not see anything sexy about lying in a cattle shed on a concrete slab or in the attic of a sympathiser's house. To me, that is not at all sexy; but it is how these people think. Then, in a couple of years' time, we will realise that they are in Colombia, America or Cork, and then they will be lauded in a public meeting in west Belfast or Dublin, and people will cheer and fists will be raised in pumps. I do not want to live in that sort of society.”
“I agree with my colleague Sammy Douglas on that point. We are not coming back here any time soon. We have seen a massive sea change in the attitude and demeanour of Sinn Féin Members even in the last couple of weeks, even in the corridors and even in the canteen. We have seen it. We are not coming back here any time soon. Do you know something? I do not want to come back to a place where one party can walk away and hold the institutions of this country to ransom. We are not coming back to that. Let me tell you that now. <BR /> <BR />What happens when a terrorist absconds? They go on the run. Is it not sexy for a terrorist to be on the run? Throughout the years, have we not seen how folklore has developed when terrorists go on the run?”
“It is true to say that people are concerned about the low level of surety required for bail and the length of time taken for the PSNI to realise that someone has absconded. <BR /> <BR />The question I put to Sinn Féin is this: why have you been quiet on this issue? What if Mr McLaughlin has disappeared — "disappeared", does that not concern Sinn Féin? We have had a past history of disappearance. I am putting that out there.”
“I am sure that the Lord Chief Justice would welcome that and any other investigation, inquiries or prospective laws that we bring to the House. That is our function. <BR /> <BR />I must say that it really annoys me when republicans and nationalists talk with forked tongue about moving on a journey, making it right and having maximum confidence in the police. They say all those good things to entice unionists into thinking that a united Ireland would be some sort of utopia — a great place in which to live — when we all realise that it would not. <BR /> <BR />Then, the very next day, they will stand side by side with hardliners with placards outside Knock HQ demanding the release of a prisoner. People who have been charged need to be very carefully managed.”
“There is absolutely no doubt about that. <BR /> <BR />I hear what Members have said. I do not believe that our debating the issue will damage in any way the criminal justice system or confidence in policing. It would do an injustice to those bodies if we did not debate a matter that is very topical out there. We have to try to fix this. As politicians, we surely have a role to play in trying to fix the system. It is not good enough to say that we should not talk about it because those people are independent of political interference. That is correct. It something that I will uphold as long as I am a politician, but we also set law in the House and ask the judiciary to implement that law. It is only right that we look at policies around bail. It is quite satisfactory that we do that.”
“I support the motion on what is a very serious matter and one of concern out there for the public. It is one of those really burning issues in the community at present. People want to know why things have gone wrong and are broken. <BR /> <BR />I have been the Chairperson of the Committee for Justice since the election. I must say that I have learnt a lot in that time. Having previously been on the Committee, I feel that I have learnt more as Chair and from meeting more people in one-to-one situations. I have the utmost respect for the Justice Minister in that time, Claire Sugden, and also for the Lord Chief Justice, the judiciary, and all its organisations and functions. However, we are public representatives. We speak on behalf of the public. At present, this is a massive issue in our communities.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Let us get away from "cost neutral". It may be cost neutral to the Northern Ireland block grant, but it costs ratepayers throughout the UK — in GB and Northern Ireland. No incentive scheme is cost neutral, but you raise a good point: if you delay something or increase the time allowed for something to take place, whether by two weeks or longer, an argument could be made for doing that at every stage of this scheme and every time it was changed. Sinéad Bradley raised the question of why the two weeks were allowed. She asked why it happened and said that answers were needed. The answer is quite clear: to allow people to put in the boiler that they had paid for and ordered.”
“Let us then find a lasting solution that will fix it one way or the other and allow businesses to get on with doing what they are meant to be doing: creating jobs and making profits.”
“I know that. Total respect to you, Mr Speaker. <BR /> <BR />Let us see what has happened here. The public can see what has happened with the head-on-a-platter stuff from the Opposition parties, but I am also appalled by the stance of Sinn Féin. They have not come out of this very well. They have flipped and flopped and done all sorts of things because, first, they are not sure of their stance and, secondly, they want to prolong the hyperbole because it suits their agenda. <BR /> <BR />I will leave it there because I do not want to incur the wrath of the Speaker any more. I support the Minister in his plans. It is essential that the regulations are passed today; he needs to get them through. It will be a 12-month plan that will curb the burden on our block grant.”
“I thank the Member for his contribution, but those were totally different circumstances. I will not go into that today because the Speaker will pull me back.”
“Sorry, £480 million. Of course, that is a lot of money for anybody, but that is over 20 years and is a projected spend. It has not been spent yet. We have £600 million in one year going out of our Budget. Put that in context. <BR /> <BR />Arlene Foster, the First Minister of this country, was asked to come to the Chamber. She came to the Chamber, and you walked out. She was asked to go to the PAC to give an account of her actions when it was investigating the RHI scheme. She agreed to do that. It was not enough: you wanted her head. You wanted her to stand aside then. Why would the First Minister either being in place or standing aside make any difference to any inquiry or investigation, public or otherwise? It does not make sense.”
“No, that is the full scheme. The overspend — the Minister will help me out, I am sure —”
“I will, Mr Speaker. Of course, the projected spend on the scheme, if it is not fixed, will be — I have lost my train of thought.”
“We also know that Sinn Féin and the SDLP —”
“<BR /> <BR />Let us look at the sensationalism in our media, let us look at the drip-feeding that we have experienced over the last number of weeks and let us look at the agendas of media. It is all information. I always think that something happened to the media — maybe the leader of the Ulster Unionists would agree with me — in that, somewhere along the line, the media stopped reporting the news and started wanting to be the news. Somewhere along the line, that has been lost. Let us look at sensationalism and drip-feeding. Where is the information going out on the air waves about Sinn Féin's resignation and the fact that that will have cost this country and the Assembly £600 million come July? That is real money. It is 5% of our Budget. Where is that on the newsreels? Where is that on the air waves?”
“We have tried for years in the House to get round state aid rules and to be able to say to businesses, "We can support you a, b and c", like other countries and other member states do and somehow get away with. Incentive schemes are one way of bypassing state aid rules. Let us be fair. Let us say it as it is. Let us be frank. Now we have all this mess and hyperbole around this. Do not attack the businesses. If you attack the scheme as an incentive scheme, you attack the applicants. If you attack the applicants, you attack the people who employ people in this country and create wealth. I plead with you: please do not do that. Do not take that opportunity just because you want a scalp and just because you want extra airtime in the radio or TV studios. Please resist that opportunity.”
“A business will come forward and could even show its profit lines and profit margins and how much it will make in any given year, and what will the media do with that information? It will be pound signs and shame. That is what it will be, but it should not be because we are trying, in the Northern Ireland Assembly, to help businesses to grow.”