Paul Frew
North Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for that intervention. Nevertheless, there are concerns that I want to address. The Minister and the departmental officials will know that, even from the range of questions that I have asked. We need to make sure that we get the balance correct.”
“In the written and oral evidence received then, the Committee was advised of potential amendments that the Minister may table at Consideration Stage, including an amendment to remove the commissioner that is being considered in liaison with OLC.”
“That in itself causes some victims and witnesses bother, because they are in a system that they are not part of, which means that they do not get the support that they require. That can sometimes leave them feeling retraumatised, as though they have been put through the wringer again.”
“The Bill makes provision to offer those protections and provide clarity to victims that they do not have to face their perpetrator in court. <BR /> <BR />Members asked questions about a range of matters, including the independence of the office, the ability to review the performance of any future commissioner, the costs of establishing th…”
“I thank the Minister for her intervention. She was absolutely right to take that action, as it means that victims' voices are right at the heart of the matters under discussion. It is now obvious to us that that should have been done years ago, but it is good that it is being done now.”
“Officials explained that the Bill would legislate on the disclosure regime not to prevent an application for disclosure but to set out a process whereby the defence would have to show the relevance of the information that it was requesting. That is an important protection.”
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“Absolutely. I thank the Member for his intervention because he makes a valid point. It is good to have that on record. Let us remember, not only did the Minister only have to lift a scheme that was already designed and apply it to Northern Ireland, we also received funding for that scheme. Where is that funding now? We have lost a massive opportunity because we should have put something in place this year. However, it is not too late. I want to end with hope that the Minister will be able to put something in place that will do the very thing that is being done in England to support employers and potential employees. Let us get our young people into work and get them motivated to display the skills that they have. They are the future of this country.”
“If I have time at the end, I will. This was an easy scheme to adopt. It was not a highbrow scheme that had to be developed, engineered and manufactured. All that we had to do was lift it from GB and implement it.”
“I met with employers and potential employees a number of weeks ago, and they are so downhearted. Employers are downhearted because they want to employ these young people, and they have them earmarked for employment. They see the talent before them, but they cannot employ them. They need help and support. I spoke to potential employees. The potential and the skills base is brilliant. It is beyond scale. Yet, the Executive is failing those young people, our future and the future of this country. Our young people think that they are not worthy. They look across at GB and see the scheme, albeit small fry, but it still helps to create 120,000 jobs for six months in GB. We are saying to them that, because of indecision, our Ministers do not see fit to roll out a similar scheme.”
“The Government also made it simpler for employers of all sizes to benefit from joining the scheme by removing the limit requiring that they create a minimum of 30 vacancies in order to apply directly. That meant that employers of all sizes could avail themselves of the scheme, but, here in Northern Ireland, there has been nothing.”
“In every single schedule to our Budget Bill, which has now been passed, you can see very clearly that there is provision left for such a scheme, and it is very important that the Ministers involved roll out the scheme, because it is important that those young people are picked up and given hope for the future. <BR /> <BR />In summer 2020, the Chancellor announced a new employer initiative aimed at creating six months' paid work placements for young people who are at risk of long-term unemployment. He called it the Kickstart scheme. I do not care what this Minister calls it, but a scheme needs to be rolled out here, because we have seen its benefits. By 25 January, more than 120,000 jobs for 16- to 24-year-olds had been created in GB.”
“Even in the Budget Bill, which was debated and passed in the House, it is stated across all four schedules to the Bill that there is:”
“<BR /> <BR />There seems to be an issue with the Department for Communities and the Department of Finance, but when you look through all the financial documents that the Executive have published, you will see clearly that the licence is there for the Minister to move forward, even in the draft Budget that is out for consultation at present. A bullet point from the Department for Communities in it states that its functions include:”
“It has not been better for young people in Northern Ireland compared with those in GB. There has been no bespoke programme put in place to help them. By debating this motion and having the Minister address it, I hope that we can give those young people hope today. <BR /> <BR />I believe that there has been commentary about the tone of the language in the House today, but let us leave the House today inspired, having given our young people and our employers hope that something good could come out of the motion. I stand here today to tell the Minister very plainly that if she were to bring forward a programme, she would find support from me and my party to roll it out, but I do not understand why, after so many weeks and months, we have seen nothing.”
“The clock is ticking grievously for those young people who have degrees and all sorts of qualifications, having passed exams at the highest level, because they are finding it very difficult to find employment. It is not about lockdown. A lot of the potential employers are from the digital world, from the high-tech end of manufacturing and data processing and from computer firms, all of which can operate almost as normal in a lockdown scenario. Lockdown should not be the excuse for any Minister in this place's failure to act. In fact, lockdown should be the inspiration and stimulus to do more, to react better and to achieve something for our young people, knowing the damage that the economic and societal lockdown is having, particularly on those who would benefit from the Job Start scheme. We have seen nothing roll out, however.”
“On Monday 23 November 2020, I asked the then Minister for Communities — not the Minister who is sitting in front of us today — why she was failing the most vulnerable. I talked about people not being able to go through personal independence payment (PIP) and employment and support allowance (ESA) appeals. I also mentioned the Kickstart programme and asked why it had not been commenced. The then Minister answered:”
“As my colleague Pat Catney has already said, fuel poverty is an issue for many people who are just about managing. They are increasingly finding that they are not heating their home efficiently because heat is being let out elsewhere and thus wasted. We should be grappling with that issue more. Bringing our housing stock up to an acceptable level is going to be a massive problem for the Assembly. We need to assist people who are living in properties that are not their own or who are having to rent. That in itself is a massive issue for Northern Ireland. I therefore welcome this movement, albeit it is small fry. It should, however, trigger bigger debates about how we effectively manage energy costs in this country.”
“They have to do that because of the cost of their energy bills. Many will go off-grid, which increases the costs for the businesses who stay on-grid. <BR /> <BR />Energy efficiency is paramount, and it must be an important focus of the House. I welcome the fact that we can reduce some costs. When we look at the figure of 81%, we think that is a massive drop, but, in a business sense, we are talking only about pennies. It is small fry in the cost of the certificate. The gathering of data will be a full-time job for at least one person, and that will be a cost in itself. However, the bills that energy users have to pay are massive. They are massive by European standards. <BR /> <BR />In the domestic setting, our housing stock is getting older.”
“It would be remiss of me not to mention and welcome back my colleague and Chairperson of the Finance Committee. I hope that he is making a speedy recovery, and it is good to have him back. <BR /> <BR />The debate on the value of certificates took up a bit of Committee time. There is value in the collection and registration of data on energy efficiency. There is no doubt about that, especially when you consider that our heavy industrial users — the non-domestic side and our biggest employers and manufacturers — pay so much for their energy bills. The Assembly should be grappling with that. Most years, Northern Ireland competes with Italy for which country is the most expensive for large industries. There is no doubt that those industries employ people specifically for the collection of data on energy efficiency.”
“Minister, when you meet the Secretary of State this week, even if an agreement is achieved and funding secured, what lead-in time will be required before victims receive money?”
“The Minister indicated that, owing to the compressed timescales, a value-for-money evaluation cannot be completed, thus ministerial direction is required for the schemes. When will the necessary value-for-money evaluation be undertaken and when will he revise the transparency process and publish all ministerial directions when they are given?”
“On behalf of the Committee for Finance, I thank the Minister for his statement and for meeting me this morning. That was much appreciated. <BR /> <BR />The health pandemic and, indeed, the economic and societal lockdown have been long and painful for individuals, families and businesses. Those new schemes, along with the extension of the business rates holiday, are good news, which will, I know, be welcomed by hard-pressed businesses up and down Northern Ireland. It is important to acknowledge the provision of support packages to some of the smaller sectors that felt left out of previous support packages. Hopefully, lessons were learned from errors there. <BR /> <BR />Will the Minister advise the House whether, after the roll-out of those schemes, he expects to have to return any money to Westminster for 2021?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. It has been an interesting debate. What are the Member's thoughts on the Programme for Government? It strikes me that if you do not have a Programme for Government, the Budget is adrift. The Budget is floating about without purpose, focus or direction. A Programme for Government should direct the Budget priorities and should weld Departments to work together, which they are not doing at present. Welding Departments together would effect change and save money. Can I ask the Member for his views on that?”
“We will have to take all that into consideration before we take any steps and before we include any provision for further taxation or reviews of the Departments that are staffed by our Civil Service and their functions to support businesses and civilians in how they live their lives. One thing is for sure: I want to see smaller government. I do not want to see Governments, be they at Westminster or at Stormont, interfering any more than they have to with people's lives and the money in their pockets. I will leave it there.”
“That is where we should really use our energies in the short term to see what we can do with the tools that we have in order to put in fairer, more efficient and more effective systems to raise tax and revenue that we can then use. <BR /> <BR />The other side of the coin is where that money goes. How efficient and effective are our systems? How well do they operate for the sake of our people? Massive questions remain over how efficiently and effectively that works, and I would like to see work being done on that. Do not get me wrong: sometimes there is a cost to reviews. Some reviews of late have not worked. Sometimes reorganisation does not work, and sometimes there is a cost.”
“That might be one way that, I suggest, the Minister could look at to see how we can broaden the tax base and assist in bringing in more money in a fairer way and through a system that is fair to everyone. <BR /> <BR />The Minister mentioned rates reviews, and I get that. It is always good to review rates, because the issue leaves a really sour taste in people's mouths, especially when, in a townscape, one street is penalised more harshly than another. It takes some time to review that, and it takes some time to fix and correct the balance. It is a primitive and brutal tool. Is there not a better way to measure and then to pay rates? Someone should take on board that job of work. A fiscal council or even a fiscal commission, if it ever sees the light of day, may well look at that.”
“I am not convinced at this stage that a hike in income tax or any other tax, for that matter, is the right way to go. My explanation for that is that the tax-varying powers that the Executive already have have not been used — they have not really even been looked at — or assessed properly to see how they could assist our economy. <BR /> <BR />The way in which we lift taxes and rates is one example. It is clear to me from talking to the business community that the way in which rates are collected, calculated and paid is quite brutal. We can see how evolving businesses and economies get round the rates base, especially in the digital world of the internet.”
“At no time should this place be another layer of bureaucracy, nor should it be another layer of penalty and taxation that will hurt and burden our people, who work hard to earn every penny and pound that they get. Whilst it is good to look at such things and to assess where we are in a fiscal world, I would rather see a pound staying in the pocket of those hard workers than going to a Government who do not necessarily know what the people are going through, as they are not close enough to the ground, and will not spend the pound as effectively and efficiently as the worker. That is why, before any procedures or proposals come forward for further fiscal powers, the Finance Minister will have to convince me and my party that that route is worth travelling.”
“<BR /> <BR />I also want to speak about the media speculation over the past week about a fiscal council. A fiscal council is a good idea to assist the Executive and, indeed, the Assembly on fiscal matters. I do not think that any of us are precious enough to think that we can do it all on our own, and it would help to have a fiscal council for budgetary Bills like this one so that we can be informed to a greater degree. That should be welcomed. <BR /> <BR />The Minister also brought a paper on a fiscal commission to the Executive. My understanding is that that would be a one-off reporting mechanism to help in the debate about fiscal powers. Devolution is a place where local people make local decisions, but at no time should devolution and the House duplicate bureaucracy.”
“That is important content in the Bill, and it gives me hope and assurance that the Executive and the Finance Minister will not be found wanting when victims require the support that they should have got years ago. I know that the Finance Minister is engaged in a process with the Secretary of State. I record my appreciation to him for that, and I support that engagement because the victims who should get the support reside not only in Northern Ireland but all over these isles and maybe even further afield. There is an onus on the Secretary of State and our Government to assist or fund the scheme. However, there is no doubt that there is a legal duty on the Executive to implement it and to ensure that the victims are safeguarded and supported. I hope and pray that those people receive that funding sooner rather than later.”
“I am pleased that, on page 33 of the Bill, in the Department of Justice piece in schedule 3, the costs relating to the Victims' Payments Board and the Troubles permanent disablement scheme are mentioned. On the next page, page 34, in the Executive Office piece, which is also in schedule 3, it states:”
“We all realise that people have waited far too long for money that is owed to them and that they should have received long ago. That money is required to assist those people in moving forward with their lives after many years of suffering with grievous injuries as a result of terrorism.”
“<BR /> <BR />Notwithstanding the above, Committee members have noted with dissatisfaction this year's Budget scrutiny process. As I indicated previously, it is the Committee's hope that the independent fiscal council, coupled with a new memorandum of understanding (MOU) between the Executive and the Assembly, possibly backed up with legislation, may offer us a new beginning for this important aspect of the Assembly's work. In the meantime, on behalf of the Committee, I commend the Final Stage of the Budget Bill to the House. <BR /> <BR />I will now add a few words as a DUP MLA. My concerns around the victims' pension scheme have had an airing at all stages and in other budgetary debates of late. They are also raised in the Finance Committee weekly.”
“The Chairperson raised the key points of Committee concern at Second Stage. I will merely indicate that, despite the short timescales, Committees have done their best to interrogate departmental submissions and that much of the feedback refers to unfunded bids and an over-reliance on in-year monitoring. <BR /> <BR />I thank all the Statutory Committees that responded to the Finance Committee with feedback. I also record a note of sympathy for the Committee for the Executive Office, which, I believe, is still waiting for Budget information. It is vital that that is highlighted at this stage and a marker laid down. I record the Committee's sincere thanks to the Minister and his officials for their oral and written briefings and for their assistance in helping Committee members to better understand all Budget matters.”
“Additionally, there were some schemes where uptake was much lower than expected, and some important sectors and individuals, with some justification, felt overlooked. Nonetheless, the response of our health service, education service and public services generally has been very good indeed. That is a positive takeaway from the pandemic. <BR /> <BR />As regards the 2021-22 Budget, I think that everyone will welcome the special carry-over arrangements from Her Majesty's Treasury, which will hopefully help to fund aspects of the post-COVID recovery. Although there will be a time when the Committee will want to say a little more about this, I would like to record the Committee's dissatisfaction with delays, both in the spending review and at the Executive, which have eaten into the Statutory Committees' valuable scrutiny time.”
“For now and in respect of the spending in 2020-21, which is covered by this Budget Bill, I should record the Committee's thanks for the very substantial additional funding that the Executive received from our Government. We should welcome the numerous support schemes for hard-pressed individuals, families and businesses. We should also note with fulsome, though qualified, approval the Executive's financial response to this crisis. There is no doubt that money has got down to many people. There could be a question about the speed, but there is no doubt that money has been received gratefully by many people and businesses. <BR /> <BR />To be sure, there were issues, not least in Land and Property Services converting itself from a collection to distribution agency, which I earmarked early on.”
“It is also right to consider how our institutions have responded to these pressures. How have we treated the most vulnerable in our society? How have we redirected resources to support them in their time of need? On another day in the not-too-distant future, I expect that the House will review that in much more detail. When that day comes, I hope that we will not be found wanting in deliberating on what has come before us.”
“It is also hoped that, in addition to written statements on those matters, further correction slips might be added to the Estimates in order to close the circle in respect of the allocation of resources when compared with the headroom figures. <BR /> <BR />We are all aware of the unusual pressures that have accompanied this most difficult of years. It is right that we take a moment to remember the lives lost, the emotional damage and the financial hardship that the lockdown has brought.”
“This year's Estimates also include, very unusually, headroom of £1 billion. It is understood that perhaps £200 million of that — the totality of the available unspent 2020-21 resource — is to be used by the Department of Finance. <BR /> <BR />The Minister suggested in earlier debates that a further business support payment would follow, to be administered by Land and Property Services. Our hard-pressed businesses could do with more support as they recover from the lockdown and address the post-COVID economic landscape. It is hoped that, today, the Minister will tell us a little bit more about what he has planned in that regard.”
“The Committee, therefore, agreed to grant accelerated passage to the Budget Bill, despite severe misgivings from most members about the lack of information on the associated public expenditure proposals. That course of action was followed in order to avoid the very real prospect of public services running out of money and stopping near the end of March. That was a surprising and unwelcome development. The Committee expects, in future, to be kept apprised by the Department of the progress of cash advances from the Consolidated Fund. <BR /> <BR />As was indicated in the previous stages of the Bill, the spring Supplementary Estimates differ greatly from those of previous years. For example, there is now the opportune inclusion of a fuller explanation for sole authority expenditure. That is a positive development and must be welcomed.”
“I wish the Chairperson of the Finance Committee all the best in his recovery. You will note his absence today; he had a bit of a mishap. I am sure that I speak for all Members in wishing him all the best for his recovery. <BR /> <BR />I will make some remarks on behalf of the Committee for Finance as part of the Final Stage of the Budget Bill. The Committee for Finance enjoys a special position and has unique responsibilities when it comes to the scrutiny of Budget Bills and the associated Supply resolutions. The Committee takes those responsibilities very seriously. Consequently, when members learned, to their great surprise, that the cash advance facility from the Consolidated Fund was close to exhaustion, they felt that action was necessary.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. She may not know this, as it is not in her remit, but is it the case that, when England, Wales and Scotland changed their rate, money was put into their systems in order to counter any burden? Did Northern Ireland receive a Barnett consequential at that time? If so, is it right and proper that we ask for further easements for any burden that would be placed upon the Department of Finance?”
“No, the Minister will have ample time at the end. The Committee is doing a lot of work, and rightly so, and we have said to the Minister to bring it to us and we will work through it, but please do not dictate a timetable to us of when you think that we should be finished that scrutiny because we do not know, even today, what might come out of the evidence that people may present to us. That, in itself, may need further scrutiny and time. <BR /> <BR />I will leave it there, Mr Deputy Speaker. Thank you for your rulings today. I know that it has not been easy for you to be in the Chair, but, having said that, we have had a good, robust debate, and I thank you for that.”
“Yes, thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I have applauded the Minister for bringing the Bill today. I have not spoken about delays or chastised or criticised anybody in the debate for delays. I welcome the fact that the Bill is at Second Stage, and we will do our work. However, I need to put on record that the Committee is scrutinising three other Bills, with another one to come, so do the Executive and the Minister want us to stop the work on the stalking Bill, the committal reform Bill or any other Bill for that matter?”
“Mr Deputy Speaker, for the purposes of the debate, I will gladly give way to the Minister if she seeks it.”
“It passed it and allowed it to go". Committee members will do our job as diligently as we can with the tools at our disposal to scrutinise the Bill appropriately and to the level that it deserves for everyone involved, not least for those grievously injured through no fault of their own. <BR /> <BR />This is a very important Bill that we, Committee members and Members of the Assembly, should consider seriously. It will affect people we know into the future. It will also affect every citizen in this place, so we should look at it very carefully.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I put that point on record. I am not privy to any Executive business, nor should I be as an MLA. That is a separation that we should protect. You will know that, in the history of this place, only one Committee's scrutiny has taken the 30 days laid down in statute. All others have asked for an extension in order to do their work diligently and appropriately. I do not believe that we will be able to meet the Minister's expectations, and nor should we, because we need to take the Bill very seriously and to make sure that we hear from all witnesses and stakeholders who wish to speak to the Committee. <BR /> <BR />I will not lay the delay at the Minister's feet, but I will not have the Minister in one or two years’ time saying, "Well, you know, the Justice Committee approved this.”
“That is why I speak of it today. I will give way to the Minister.”
“I will finish my point, and then I will give way. We are given two ears and one mouth, and sometimes it is good for Ministers to hear and listen to what Members of the Assembly are stating. It is not for any Executive Minister to dictate how long a Committee should take to consider and scrutinise legislation brought before it by that Minister. That is a real breach of the way in which this place works and operates. I will defend the right of the Committee to take its time with the process of considered scrutiny of the Bill. We will endeavour to work as hard and as speedily as we can. Like you, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will be a guardian of democracy. I will make sure that rushed law does not become bad law and that rushed law does not become flawed law. That letter from the Justice Minister overstepped a mark, and that I cannot tolerate.”
“How dare the Minister dictate to the Committee when it should meet and how much time it should give.”
“I thank the Deputy Speaker for his ruling. Yes, I will talk about the process and the Committee Stage. That will have a massive impact on the information in the Bill. I quote the Minister. She wrote:”
“Rightly, members of the Committee did not want to pursue that —.”
“There is no way that the Executive should dictate to this House — this Assembly — that passes legislation. Any influence or process that jeopardises that separation should be aggressively countered. There should be no stepping into that void, especially when we sit in a five-party coalition. My party is one of them, but I defend the right of Committees to do their work as they see fit and to make sure that the Assembly is independent of the Executive. Without that independence, you lose democracy, and I am not in that space. <BR /> <BR />For the record, I will read out the first paragraph of the Minister's letter to the Committee, because I think that it is grievous. Remember, the setting was a debate and a toing and froing between the Minister and the Committee, with her wanting the Bill to go through by accelerated passage.”
“Whilst we like the idea of reviewing laws, apparatus and infrastructure, could that affect settlements? We must look at that. That is what is happening at present: people are holding on and waiting out and are being advised to do so. Even a review mechanism could have an impact on settlements going forward. Those are things that we will try to look at. <BR /> <BR />I return to my earlier point. The Minister wrote to the Committee, on 16 February this year, about the Bill and the legislative process for it. That letter shook me to my core. The Minister may laugh, but there is a process in the House. I have been here for nearly 11 years, and I can tell Members that the Executive are not the Assembly. It is a place apart; there is a difference; and that has to be so.”
“We say that we are picking up the Scottish model, but we are not really. We are trying to get a bespoke model for Northern Ireland. I am not saying that that is wrong or right, but we will have to scrutinise it and to make sure that it is fit for purpose for Northern Ireland and its citizens. <BR /> <BR />Those are the questions that have been posed by the Committee already, and the answers that we received raised further questions that we need to explore. That is just one example of some of the issues that the Committee has grappled with, even to date. <BR /> <BR />There is also an issue about the Scottish review process and how the Northern Ireland process will align with it, even though the legislation will only be implemented this year.”
“I agree with the Member, and I thank her for her intervention and for putting that on the record. I believe that that is the case. When we look at the process and infrastructure that the Bill puts in place, we have concerns, even about the answers that officials gave to some of the questions that we posed. One official talked about the difference between the 30- and 43-year investment periods. That was described as a "rounding difference", which would make no difference if it was less than the 0·25%. My understanding is that 0·25% could be worth hundreds of thousands of pounds.”