Paul Frew
North Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for that intervention. Nevertheless, there are concerns that I want to address. The Minister and the departmental officials will know that, even from the range of questions that I have asked. We need to make sure that we get the balance correct.”
“In the written and oral evidence received then, the Committee was advised of potential amendments that the Minister may table at Consideration Stage, including an amendment to remove the commissioner that is being considered in liaison with OLC.”
“That in itself causes some victims and witnesses bother, because they are in a system that they are not part of, which means that they do not get the support that they require. That can sometimes leave them feeling retraumatised, as though they have been put through the wringer again.”
“The Bill makes provision to offer those protections and provide clarity to victims that they do not have to face their perpetrator in court. <BR /> <BR />Members asked questions about a range of matters, including the independence of the office, the ability to review the performance of any future commissioner, the costs of establishing th…”
“I thank the Minister for her intervention. She was absolutely right to take that action, as it means that victims' voices are right at the heart of the matters under discussion. It is now obvious to us that that should have been done years ago, but it is good that it is being done now.”
“Officials explained that the Bill would legislate on the disclosure regime not to prevent an application for disclosure but to set out a process whereby the defence would have to show the relevance of the information that it was requesting. That is an important protection.”
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“The scope and the breadth of the clause are immense. If it can affect legislation brought forward by other Ministers and Departments, which has been thoroughly scrutinised in the House, there is something badly wrong. <BR /> <BR />I will leave it at that because I know that the Chair has covered all bases on this clause.”
“When I asked questions on this matter in the Committee, the understanding of the officials who addressed my question was that this provision enables the Department to amend any legislation, even that not related to Justice. If that is the case, that is very wide-ranging. I believe that, if it is there to affect legislation that does not even relate to justice, it must be scrutinised carefully because that, in itself, may lead to indirect consequences that will affect our people daily. So, whilst this certainly is a quirk of history, it is a very serious point, and we are having a very serious and principled debate. <BR /> <BR />As the Chairman of the Committee said, question marks are being raised all around the world on the content of this clause, and now, of course, it has come to the Floor of the Assembly. It concerns me greatly.”
“You might find that there would be more support for and less worry and concern about a clause like this if it were restricted in that way so as to catch only part of a Bill. Even then, of course, there would be concerns around what the Minister might want or intend to do in the future. <BR /> <BR />To me, the whole point of being here as a legislator is being able to scrutinise. The first thing that we should look at when we are scrutinising Bills is the indirect consequences of those Bills. We should be mindful of that every day that we are in the House and every day that we scrutinise legislation in Committee. I have worries and concerns about this clause. As a principle, we need to look at it more carefully.”
“It allows the Minister, even with the best intentions, to do things with legislation that has been scrutinised in both the Chamber and the Committee. There is a principle here in that it may go some way to demeaning the role of scrutiny in this legislature. That worries me. As we move on with legislation, this may well become an issue time and time again. There is an onus on Ministers and Departments when they bring forth legislation to ask themselves this question: is this clause essential, and, if it is, why is it essential? If they ask that question of themselves, there may be an opportunity whereby a Bill of this nature — even a Bill as wide-ranging as the Justice Bill, and this is probably a good example — may be for only a specific or small part.”
“This is probably a quirk of history, but, whilst it can be described in that way, we, as legislators, have to take it very seriously. I fully support my colleague Alban Maginness on his reading of history. I am not that intrigued by Henry VIII — I do not find him that popular a guy — but I certainly support the symbol of the harp in Ireland. That is something that I find immense pride in, especially as I wore it on my caubeen in the Royal Irish. It is indeed a symbol of valour and dedication to the bravery of the British Army throughout Ireland through the ages, so I can certainly support the harp if not Henry VIII. <BR /> <BR />Moving on before I am told off, Mr Speaker, this seems to me to be just too wide-ranging and to have too much scope.”
“I do not think for one moment that this will stop chit-chat. I do not think for one moment that this will prevent people who like a good yarn from talking. They will talk, but the scheme will take away people's frustration and assuage their fear because they will be able to use it to apply for disclosure.”
“I am concerned by the Member's point about allegations. Let us be very clear that someone with that level of concern will make an allegation to the Police Service of Northern Ireland. In this scheme, they will apply for disclosure. There is a difference there. Let us be very clear that, if members of the public have an issue or a suspicion, they can go to the police straightaway. I worry about the terminology and language used in the House, because there will be media and, more importantly, victims watching.”
“This would also bring a sense of relief, assuage fear and take away the frustration of members of the public. It is all about awareness. It is all about educating the public so that they know what this scheme will do and how it will go about doing it.”
“On the point about sensitivity and handling it right, there is absolutely no doubt — it is certainly at the forefront of my motivation for this — that, even with the existence of the scheme and its implementation, there needs to be with it awareness-raising for the public about what the scheme is and how they could use it. That is not to advertise a scheme to get everybody to apply, but there has to be education around this. What I mean by that is that members of the public will be informed about how they can detect telltale signs that may lead to suspicion. If that were done correctly and robustly, it might sift out a lot of applications for disclosure that were not needed. The more specific requests for disclosure would be of great value and use in the operation of PPANI.”
“That brings me back to my point. The Member asked whether the sex offender or violent offender would be notified of a disclosure. That would be the subject of a PPANI assessment because there may be a case where there is a rumour and someone applies and the sex offender may have done nothing wrong at that point. It may, then, be wrong to disclose information that someone had applied for. That would all be in the PPANI risk assessment. To be honest, we could dabble in this all day and night and we still could not come up with a good enough conclusion or assessment. These are the experts and the PPANI agencies are the people who assess, monitor and police these matters on a daily basis. They are the ones who should assess every single case on its own merits.”
“That is all about the management of sex offender or violent offender in every situation. As I said earlier, it could be used as an early detection system by PPANI whereby it might just safeguard some of its actions and monitoring and policing of those offenders.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. The Member seeks clarification and I happy to give it to him. In the current system, there is risk management and the monitoring and management of sex offenders. If an application is made, some of things that are assessed are whether it is child centred, whether it is on a particular child or children and the concerns around that. If that is the case, there will also be an assessment of whether the person who is applying is the right person to obtain that information. <BR /> <BR />If it is deemed to be such a risk that someone else should have disclosure of that information, it is within the gift of PPANI to disclose that information to them. It may be the case that the offender should know that they are doing something that is wrong, or not right, and that they should mend their ways.”
“The Member makes a very salient and good point. I would be all in favour of a review of this because, in the PPANI guidance and the actual legislation, it asks to be constantly reviewed. I think that not only the child protection order but the PPANI arrangements should be reviewed to make sure that they are fit for purpose and that the standard operating procedures are used. That is best practice all round the world.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. He is right, and I thank the Member for the support of his party for the amendment. It specifies sexual or violent offenders. "Specified" means that it is within the remit of PPANI. That is why it is wider-reaching than just child sex offenders, because of course children can be harmed by more than just child sex offenders. It is a broader remit. I am quite content with that because they are all within the PPANI arrangements, and all those types of offenders will be monitored and managed by PPANI.”
“I give a commitment, as will my colleague Lord Morrow, that we will work with the Minister in the days and weeks ahead to make sure that this amendment becomes law and provides safety and assurance for the parents, teachers and carers of our society and community, and that the youngsters, young people and children whom we want to protect will be given a greater degree of protection.”
“I am dedicated in the pursuit of keeping children, and all our citizens, safe; that is my motivation for this amendment. How can it help? It can help by making sure that parents are among the first, not the last, to know, and they can use that information to assist them in keeping their children safe. <BR /> <BR />I am delighted that the majority of Members who spoke did so in favour of the amendment. I hope that the amendment goes before the House tonight and is passed.”
“<BR /> <BR />In closing, Mr Deputy Speaker, the child protection disclosures will not solve crime; they will not end child abuse or sexual crime. Giving the public information about individuals' previous crimes and risk levels is just one part of this very complicated jigsaw. It is vital that sex offenders serve long and sufficient prison sentences. <BR /> <BR />Like all parents, we, of course, believe that prison is the best place for those who harm children and commit serious sexual crime. However, all prisoners are released eventually, so they have to be thoroughly risk-assessed and rehabilitated before they are released to understand that what they have done is wrong. Then, they need to be managed and monitored for a long time, with constant reassessment.”
“That argument misses the point somewhat, in that this is all about information-sharing. It is all about arming parents and members of our society who care for children with that information. Of course, as was said earlier, not all sex offenders pose the same risk. Again, it will be determined on a case-by-case basis and by a number of factors. It is already in use in PPANI. Many individuals are not known about, nor do they have criminal convictions. Those individuals will pose the highest risk in our community. That is why I am mindful of the fact that, even with this law, there needs to be education and awareness. Members of our public need to be able to assess, judge and monitor for themselves the people in their communities. If they are fearful, they can apply for this scheme.”
“That is why, at times, it is good and proper to disclose to the sex offender or the person who may pose a risk to family members. <BR /> <BR />People have also argued about striking a balance between the need to protect the public and enabling people who have served their sentence and rehabilitated themselves to move on positively with their life. This is not putting a mark on anyone for the rest of their life if they are totally rehabilitated, have reformed and have moved on positively. This is all about risk, and the level of risk that they pose to a child under someone's supervision. <BR /> <BR />People have also argued in the past about an onus or responsibility shifting away from the state and on to ordinary members of the public. I do not believe that that would be the case, as responsibility will still lie with the PPANI agencies.”
“I thank the Member for his contribution, because that is a very important point. In many cases, that is the procedure. Even now, in many cases, if PPANI proposes that people should have information disclosed to them and is managing and monitoring the sex offender, it will have approached that sex offender to say, "Why are you here? Why are you doing this? Why are you in this relationship? You should not be in a relationship. We need to tell your new partner — the single mum — that her and her children may be at risk". That is what happens at present in many cases. In many cases, that is the right thing to do, because, although we have to manage and monitor these people, we have to make sure that they do not reoffend. That is key here. That is the reason that we need to make sure that this is managed properly and appropriately.”
“As I say, this should not be used as a nosy-neighbour charter, as a revenge weapon for someone who has a grudge or by the media. However, I believe that it cannot be used for that because PPANI will be the one administering it with the PSNI.”
“The words "relevant previous convictions" may also mean findings and cautions that relate to the offender's specification in guidance under article 50. The amendment could therefore go some way to assuaging the fears of our people. <BR /> <BR />This may be a negative argument, but we also hear that it could lead to a flood of requests coming in. It might do. People could point to the flood of requests in England, Scotland and Wales, and that might well be the case here. However, the aim of the scheme is to give parents, carers, guardians and all other interested bodies, parties and people a more formal mechanism for requesting information about a person who has or may have contact with their child or be close to them, if they are concerned that that individual is a child sex offender, a sex offender or a violent offender.”
“<BR /> <BR />There is already frustration and fear among the public, and I believe that the disclosure scheme will go some way to alleviating that pressure. Of course, many who have been punished and sanctioned for committing sexual offences may well have reformed and been rehabilitated. In that case, they will pose little or no risk to the public. It is all about risk; it is not about cautions or prosecutions on a list. That is very important when you look at that amendment. If PPANI is involved in the administration of this, which it will be, and, if the PSNI has a very major say, if not the final say, on it, they will be able to consider each and every individual case, which is right and proper. However, it will not only be convictions.”
“If we can share information between agencies, whether it be the NSPCC, the police, the Probation Board, the Prison Service or the education board, why can we not disclose that information to responsible parents? They are the ones whom we task with bringing on society and bringing up their children in a responsible manner. <BR /> <BR />We know that there are social networking sites that name and shame sex offenders and child sex offenders. Our newspapers have also been irresponsible, and that has led to attacks. People's names have been issued in papers, as have their addresses or areas. It is very important that the media, even tonight, as they report on this amendment, take a responsible approach. I plead with the media to ensure that they understand this thoroughly.”
“We will not ignore the arguments against; we will go through them. Some say that this may lead to more vigilante-type attacks, but we know that such attacks happen now on the streets of our towns, villages and cities. It happened in my constituency only last month. A lot of attacks have been cases of mistaken identity. This law, under which disclosure would be made only when necessary to protect a child or children, would, I believe, remove that risk. If people knew exactly what the truth was and were armed with that information, they could make informed choices about what they did in the future — where their children went and what they did. To me, that is very important. <BR /> <BR />It is important that responsible people get to hear that information. Why is it that parents are the last to know?”
“Why would people apply for information on someone else to be disclosed? I believe that people would use the mechanism when they had suspicions about someone — maybe someone is acting suspiciously or people are talking about them. Is it not better that PPANI hears of their concerns? Is it not better that people can apply for disclosure on those individuals? Is it not better that they are able to risk-manage their children as best they can? If it comes back that there is no issue with a person, is that not better than people wondering, people being concerned and frightened, and unreasonable people taking the law into their own hands? It would then become a bigger issue than the rumour mill in the local pub, shop or youth club. That is why this law is essential for Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />I will go through some of the issues.”
“There is no doubt about it: PPANI and the strict guidelines that I talked about earlier, which were issued by the Minister in 2008, work well. I would go as far as saying that ours is probably the best system in the United Kingdom and better than systems in other places in the world, but it is not failsafe. Sometimes, people slip through the net and issues go awry. That is why this could also lead to an early detection system.”
“That in itself will be an offence. It is right and proper that, when people are armed with information that will help them manage the risk to their family, they do not divulge it. There is absolutely nothing to stop other members of the community applying for information about the same person or similar people in an area. It is important that that two-way system works. <BR /> <BR />This will also help PPANI because it could work as an early detection system.”
“Some of our media outlets have been reckless and sensationalist with some of the information around this serious issue, and that has led to people being attacked. Any attack on any person or property is wrong: if you break the law you should expect to be subject to the law. That applies to anyone in this society. <BR /> <BR />I believe that this will go some way to relieving the pressure and removing the vacuum that leads to misinformation and wrong information. It will also mean that, if there is a disclosure, those receiving that information have a responsibility to use it for the sake of their children and the people whom they care about. It is not for them to disclose that information in a reckless way to other members of the community who then may take the law into their own hands. That is not what this is about.”
“We all know that, at times, people ring our constituency offices to say that they have heard a rumour, which then spreads like wildfire. I have had experience of cases in which that has led to instances of mistaken identity. People have been assaulted or had their property damaged because of rumours and innuendoes and all sorts of information going out in all directions. People are genuinely worried, concerned and fearful for their children and the children in their care. <BR /> <BR />We propose that that mechanism goes two ways, so that members of the public who hear concerns and rumours can apply for that information, which must be child-centred. They must be responsible for children. This is not a nosy neighbour charter, nor is it some vehicle that the press can use and exploit. I would not propose it here if it was.”
“Controlled disclosures are made in Northern Ireland — I stress that they have been made in Northern Ireland — as part of risk assessment and management. They may be made to third parties — for example, people in positions in churches or community groups, relatives or carers — where it is necessary to protect the general public. The decision to do this must be based on compelling risk and will be taken by a senior police officer of Assistant Chief Constable (ACC) rank in consultation with other PPANI agencies. <BR /> <BR />It is vital to stress, once again, that we have had disclosure in this region. However, I propose that it becomes a two-way mechanism, a vehicle through which members of the public can get information that will help family members, guardians and carers to manage the risk to their family.”
“All offenders have a designated risk manager who is normally someone from the police or the Probation Board Northern Ireland. Ongoing or existing disclosures are overseen by local area public protection panels in a multi-agency way, and risk is increased according to ongoing assessments using a range of domains. Through the use of an internationally recognised dynamic risk assessment tool, part of the assessment will always look at the issue of disclosure. The PPANI agencies support the use of controlled disclosure as part of a risk management plan and, in doing so, follow the principles set out in the Minister of Justice's statutory guidance. This takes account of legal and procedural requirements in relation to the principles overseeing lawful disclosure.”
“The arrangements came into force in 2008 and have been subject to positive inspections by the Criminal Justice Inspection Northern Ireland. The strategic management board of PPANI comprises senior representatives from the police, the Probation Board, Northern Ireland prisons, Health and Social Care, the NSPCC and the Government, and it meets four times a year. Through local area public protection panels, it provides the framework for local operational cooperation. <BR /> <BR />All convicted sex offenders are subjected to a static risk assessment on conviction that uses a scoring matrix to give an initial indication of risk. Where an individual is assessed as medium- to high-risk, they are subject to multi-agency assessment and risk management.”
“All those bodies are now linked and communicate with each other. It is more than that; they have to relate to and go with that guidance. It is important that they give effect to that as it leads to greater protection for our people and most definitely for our children. Of course, with that document, there is already a vehicle through which disclosure can be made. It is vital to get that across. <BR /> <BR />Before I touch on that, I will talk some more about the arrangements within PPANI, because it is important that the House understands what PPANI is and what it does. The agencies involved in PPANI have worked very closely to protect the public in Northern Ireland and take their responsibilities very seriously. It is chaired by the Probation Board NI.”
“It is vital that agencies have decent lines of communication so that they can share information that may be relevant to the cases and individuals they are working with. That is basically what PPANI does. That is why the Criminal Justice (Northern Ireland) Order 2008 is very important and is relevant to the amendment that we are discussing. <BR /> <BR />The document 'Guidance to agencies on public protection arrangements' is issued by the Minister of Justice under article 50 of the Criminal Justice (Northern Ireland) Order 2008. The guidance states:”
“As I said, that would be added to the Criminal Justice (Northern Ireland) Order 2008. That Order provides:”
“We have to make sure that we do everything that we can to assist those victims and the people who are involved in PPANI to deal with the issue and get as many of those people as possible brought to justice and, more importantly, protect the victims in those families. They are so vulnerable. They may well even be listening to the debate today. I plead with those people to come forward because help is available and they should avail themselves of it. <BR /> <BR />The amendment would amend previous legislation, the Criminal Justice (Northern Ireland) Order 2008. It would insert into that Order further items. Basically, it would state:”
“I thank the Member for the intervention. I do not have that information to hand. He goes some way to proving the point that it is not just sex offenders whom we need to worry about; it is actually the risk that they pose. There will be many sex offenders who have served their time and their punishment and will be a very low risk or no risk to members of the public, particularly children. He raises a valid point, and I will come to it at a later stage. <BR /> <BR />We also know — this is important — that many cases of sexual or physical abuse, particularly of children, go unreported and undetected. Often, the abuse is carried out by family members and others who are known to the victims. That should not be lost on the House. This amendment will not solve that.”
“People are living in our communities who have maybe served time in prison for very serious offences. They need to be managed and monitored to ensure that they do not pose a risk to children and vulnerable people. We also know that just under 500 sexual offences cases are going through the courts at this time. That information was, again, gleaned through a question from Lord Morrow. Of course, cases will range from the most serious to very low-risk, which nonetheless is crime. That is something that, at first, alarms me but also assures me that there is detection out there. I am sure that some of those cases, as they go through the court process, will be resolved in one way or another with people being put behind bars for a long time.”
“The crux of why we need this, Northern Ireland's equivalent to Sarah's law, is that there is no doubt that this is a really serious issue that many in society and society itself grapple with. Certainly, sometimes, it falls short of the requirements that are needed to deal with these serious issues. There is absolutely no doubt that we and the agencies within PPANI cannot stop crime. It is as simple as that. We have to ensure that we can manage, resolve and deal with crime to the best of our ability. Measures have to be in place to ensure that that is the case. <BR /> <BR />Of course, we know that there are some 1,200 convicted sex offenders being managed in our communities and region. In my policing district — the old H district — there are 118. That information came from questions that my colleague Lord Morrow asked the Minister.”
“It is a very good office that does tremendous work, usually all behind the scenes, and silently works away.”
“<BR /> <BR />I also pay tribute at this stage to the NSPCC, which has worked alongside me and Lord Morrow, advising us on best practice and measures, informing us of the current arrangements already in place and assuring us of the work that it and other agencies within PPANI do that helps to protect and safeguard our families and children. I also pay tribute to Lord Morrow of Clogher Valley for his assistance in supporting the amendment and helping me. The House will know that Lord Morrow has been asking questions of the Minister on this very issue for a long time, and I am glad that he is able to come on board with me as we propose this amendment. <BR /> <BR />I would also like to thank the Bill Office for its work and assistance throughout the last number of weeks, and for helping and assisting me where and when it needed to.”
“That is vital, because then it becomes much more holistic and widespread in the proper sense because it will afford even greater protection for children and it will allow as many people as possible to apply if they see fit. If they are concerned or suspicious about a person, or the activities of a person, they will be able to apply. Of course those are all serious crimes. It is a wide spectrum of crimes. They range from the highest seriousness to the lowest risk, so it is important that people retain the right and the power to disclose and not to disclose.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. I will get to the detail of the wording of the Bill later in my contribution, but, of course, he will know that, in some cases, information should not and will not be disclosed. That consideration should be with the people who are the experts on that, namely the PPANI agencies. It is very important that they retain the management of it and the right to disclose, or not to disclose, if that may be the case. <BR /> <BR />Of course, the scheme proposed in the amendment goes further than in GB, because, unlike the child sex offenders disclosure scheme in England, it includes not only child sex offences but sex offences, domestic violence offences, violence and hate crime offences — all of the PPANI-specified offences.”
“That is why I pay tribute to the Minister and his officials, who have worked with me and Lord Morrow to ensure that we have an amendment that is fit for purpose and that fits Northern Ireland and the rigours and regulations that are in place here. Of course, the Minister will reserve the right to amend it, as he sees fit, in the Further Consideration Stage. I give him a commitment that I will work with him over the coming days and weeks to ensure that we can get something that is fit for purpose and best to meet the needs of and protect the children in Northern Ireland.”
“It became known as the child sex offender disclosure scheme, launched in England and in Wales in 2010. Since then, there have been just under 5,000 requests made for information and disclosures, and over 700 disclosures have been made. That certainly tells me that there are 700 people who have been given information that could go some length to protect children under their care. There is an equivalent scheme in Scotland — Mark's law — which, of course, the Chairman of the Justice Committee mentioned earlier. That scheme is called Keeping Children Safe and is also a very important piece of work. <BR /> <BR />Whilst we all support the principle of Sarah's law and Mark's law in GB, we have to be mindful of the facts and how it would fit into Northern Ireland.”
“I will propose and speak to amendment No 19, which deals with new clause 43A. Before I move on to that, I would like to say that I broadly welcome the work done by the SDLP on their amendments regarding the domestic violence protection order. I feel that there may be work to be done, and I sincerely hope that it can be done in the interim to allow successful amendments to be made and come into effect in the Bill. I wish Members all the best in that, working closely with the Minister, of course. I certainly support that in principle. <BR /> <BR />I move on then to the DUP amendment sponsored by my colleague Lord Morrow and me on what will be the Northern Ireland equivalent to Sarah's law. Sarah's law was passed in England after the tragic murder of Sarah Payne.”
“I thank the Minister for his very detailed answer. Will he give the House an assurance that he will continue to work and provide support to JTI employees and that he will also work, as he and his officials have been doing, with Invest NI and the council, which has now set up a working group on the issue?”
“Given that NIE was given some £458 million in the most recent price review and received £46 million through the European regional development fund, how can the Minister ensure that that money is being spent in the right places and at the right time so that businesses in my North Antrim constituency will be able to grow and get some relief by generating their own energy?”
“I thank the Minister for her answer on what is a very serious issue, not least for my North Antrim constituents.”