Paul Frew
North Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for that intervention. Nevertheless, there are concerns that I want to address. The Minister and the departmental officials will know that, even from the range of questions that I have asked. We need to make sure that we get the balance correct.”
“In the written and oral evidence received then, the Committee was advised of potential amendments that the Minister may table at Consideration Stage, including an amendment to remove the commissioner that is being considered in liaison with OLC.”
“That in itself causes some victims and witnesses bother, because they are in a system that they are not part of, which means that they do not get the support that they require. That can sometimes leave them feeling retraumatised, as though they have been put through the wringer again.”
“The Bill makes provision to offer those protections and provide clarity to victims that they do not have to face their perpetrator in court. <BR /> <BR />Members asked questions about a range of matters, including the independence of the office, the ability to review the performance of any future commissioner, the costs of establishing th…”
“I thank the Minister for her intervention. She was absolutely right to take that action, as it means that victims' voices are right at the heart of the matters under discussion. It is now obvious to us that that should have been done years ago, but it is good that it is being done now.”
“Officials explained that the Bill would legislate on the disclosure regime not to prevent an application for disclosure but to set out a process whereby the defence would have to show the relevance of the information that it was requesting. That is an important protection.”
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“I thank the Member for his intervention. I hear what he is saying, but this is about a holistic approach. There is detail in the motion, but it does not mention all of us working together. I am not saying for one moment that this stuff should not be done. I am not saying that this stuff should not be in our thoughts or in the motion. What I am saying is that the issue has to be moved forward with a holistic approach. Everyone must be brought along and come with us. Whilst there is a lot of good in all this, it has to be the Fresh Start Agreement. I am not too sure whether the Member wants another intervention, but would he like to explain to the House his party's settled position on the Fresh Start Agreement, the same as every other party in the House?”
“If we go into the public sphere on this, we should let the people see what is on the minds of the Governments. Let them judge for themselves how much or how little progress has been made or what more needs to be done. That is a very important issue, but nobody in this room, whether you are in government or in opposition, should shirk that responsibility.”
“That responsibility lies on every single person in this House and on every single party. That is why I am speaking to the amendment that our party put forward:”
“We want to remove some of that pain for those people who suffer this every single day. Ultimately, however, we see that this cannot move forward without justice being upheld. Justice must be seen to be done. The rule of law must be upheld without fear or favour to anyone — and I mean anyone, whether you were part of a terrorist organisation or you were a part of the security forces and you stepped out of line and broke the law. The law is there to protect the citizens of every nation. It is important that, as we move forward, the rule of law is maintained and justice is seen to be done. <BR /> <BR />This is a remarkably sensitive area. It has proven so difficult to move forward from the ceasefires and the various agreements to now. We are edging forward, although, of course, we are not going quickly enough.”
“Even within victims' groups, there are victims and survivors who do not want or need the same thing. It is a massive issue for us, the leaders, who are trying to move Northern Ireland forward, working with the UK Government. The Irish Government also have a massive part to play in this moving forward as regards their role in the Troubles. With all of that, trying to get a resolution and agreement has, to this point, proven to be remarkably difficult. <BR /> <BR />What are the needs and wants of victims and survivors? Some want truth, and that is a massive area. Some want justice, some want truth without justice and some want justice with truth. This is a massive issue moving forward. What does our party want? Our party wants a resolution to this; of course we do.”
“Let me say at the outset that I agree with a lot of what Mr Attwood said, as it resonates with me. I yearn for the day when we get this issue dealt with. I am sure that every one of us has met, spoken to, or even has family members who are victims or who are involved in a victims' group. We have all met them and seen the pain in their eyes and heard it in their voices when they talk about their loved ones and how they miss them. <BR /> <BR />However, it is also a truth that not all victims want and need the same thing. That is something that we need to be very mindful of when we proceed along this path. It is also clear that, on these issues, trust has been and probably will continue to be a massive issue. In fact, it is a massive barrier to moving forward. The fact is that not all victims' groups want or need the same thing.”
“I thank the Minister for this statement and her action. This is a strong decision: to reverse the previous Minister's decision on courthouse closures. The wrong decision was taken then; the right decision is being taken now. Although justice was devolved to us a number of years ago, maybe we are only now starting to see the spirit of devolution entering the officialdom of the DOJ. It is a very good day for democracy, as opposed to the courts. <BR /> <BR />The Minister mentioned innovation in the courtroom, a problem-solving approach and the establishment of civil and family justice centres, which were, of course, mentioned in Lord Justice Gillen's report. Will the Minister detail the work she has done on that aspect and whether Ballymena courthouse could be used for one of those centres or pilot schemes?”
“Despite the doom-and-gloom merchants and the "Remoaners" in the House, it was really encouraging to see the EFRA Minister here last week at your invitation. You have already mentioned this, but it seemed that George Eustice was thinking outside the box. Can you give us any more specific details about support after we leave the EU?”
“That is wrong, but that is the calibre of prisoner that we are talking about.”
“I thank the Member for the intervention. That is not the message that should be going out. It is not special status. That is my point: they are separated, not special. <BR /> <BR />I have been to Roe House and Bush House: they are locked down. Prisoners are able to move in threes and fours, but that is all. The prison authorities have control, and it would be a mistake for a paramilitary organisation to get publicity from the fact that we think they control the prison. They do not, and they will not, because the prison authorities have it under control. Paramilitaries do not control Roe House, and the loyalists do not control Bush House. There is a lot of psychological warfare going on — there is absolutely no doubt about that — and they can pick on individual prison officers.”
“If there are paramilitaries out there, of whatever hue, and they are conducting terrorist activities, I want them arrested and imprisoned and out of harm's way. <BR /> <BR />We should also send out the message today that we are not back in the days of the Maze. Prisoners cannot dig tunnels and stockpile soil in a cell. It is controlled by the prison staff. Maghaberry is controlled by the very staff we place in there to protect us.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention, and he is absolutely right: it is pie in the sky to think that our Prison Service operates in the same climate as that in the mainland UK or anywhere else in Europe. That is not the case. <BR /> <BR />We want to see an end to paramilitarism. We want to see an end to organised criminality. We want to see an end to any sort of terrorist organisations or activity. How do we achieve that? We have all said that we want an end to it, but how do we work and operate to achieve it? Our best way of achieving it is through the Fresh Start Agreement and the Executive action plan that has been published. That is our road map to ending not only the separation in our prisons but paramilitarism in its entirety.”
“If there is a message that we need to send, it is this: we support you, we respect you and we will try and do everything that we can to better support you in your day job. Of course, it is not only a day job. Officers in the Prison Service are faced, every hour, with the risk of death, of assassination, of being blown to smithereens. That is something that I suspect is unbearable at times for the families and for the prison staff involved, both male and female, of course.”
“The motion from the UUP on ending the separation of prisoners in Maghaberry is something that, of course, we have aspired to achieve for many, many years from manifesto to manifesto. The decision was taken in 2004 by Her Majesty's Government, and there were options looked at at the time. One option was reopening the Maze prison to allow for separated prisoners. Of course, we could never support going back to the days of the Maze and the regimes in it. <BR /> <BR />We owe a large debt of gratitude to the prison staff who work day in, day out, in our prisons, not only at Maghaberry, of course, but across our prison estate. They do tremendous work, and nobody, with the exception of their families, realises just how tremendous that work is.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. On that very point, there have been cases, for example, where someone who has been convicted of sexual abuse has got a lesser sentence by a number of years, been let out on probation and then been able to get themselves off the sex offenders' list because they did not complete their full term in prison. That could ripple down with regard to any statutory disclosure scheme. Will the Minister look out for and investigate such cases?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I will be brief. Is the fact that we have no specific legislation on domestic violence and stalking one of the reasons why people do not have confidence to come forward?”
“I take her point. People ask the question, "How can you stay in that abusive relationship?". It is very complex, and, sometimes, with youngsters involved, it is a threat to them as much as anything else, but does the Member agree with me that if the Department were to bring in the domestic violence disclosure scheme to work alongside the child protection disclosure scheme, some of those people may not end up in an abusive relationship if they have the right to ask before they endeavour into a relationship?”
“A VOPO is a tool that is the essential piece in the kit in the toolbox and which our officials need to use.”
“Where are our violent offences prevention orders (VOPOs)? The people who work in this field, protecting people on a day-to-day basis, are crying out for VOPOs. We have been promised them; we have not yet received them. Even when I brought amendments on coercive behaviour on Wednesday 10 February 2016 on the Justice (No. 2) Bill, I was given commitments by the then Minister that these would be going in very soon. I withdrew that amendment because I want good law, not bad law. I want to see action and movement. Cogs turn far too slowly, and people are becoming victimised as we speak. Although we do have SOPOs — sexual offences prevention orders — and can see how well they work, we need VOPOs in as quickly as possible. They can be issued even without the consent of the victim.”
“It is essential that we tackle coercive control, and, if we tackle that, it will mean that there will be more convictions on the domestic violence front. We have no laws on stalking yet. We have to go and look towards harassment. That is not capable legislation to cover stalking. That needs to change, and I plead with the Minister that, when she is looking at this, she puts this together and tries to deal with the issue in one raft of legislation. We have no laws yet on coercive behaviour. That needs to change. We have been talking about this for so many years. The Minister has been in post for only a couple of months, but we have been talking about this for many years. Justice officials know that we have been talking about this for many years. <BR /> <BR />I will turn my attention to the Department.”
“The Family Homes and Domestic Violence (Northern Ireland) Order 1998 is the legislative framework that allows victims of domestic abuse to apply for protective civil orders and non-molestation orders in a civil setting, and the Protection from Harassment (Northern Ireland) Order 1997 is the legislation where victims of stalking have to look to. <BR /> <BR />That is my point. We need direct legislation to deal with this crime. This crime is complex. It is not just domestic violence. If we try to tackle domestic violence on its own, we will fail, and we will fail our victims and survivors. It is as much to do with coercive behaviour and controlling behaviour as it is domestic violence, because, if you have the fear of the violence, you will do pretty much what you are told to do, especially if there are young people in the house.”
“We have to sit up and take notice, and I believe that we have seen a trend, even since we came back from recess. First, in the very first week that we were back, there was the motion from my colleague Brenda Hale on stalking, and we now have this. The pressure on the Minister has been immense in this regard. I support the Minister in her assertions that she will tackle this and treat this as her number one priority. <BR /> <BR />I believe that the community and society out there demands of us that we bring forward new legislation, support it, certainly scrutinise it and make sure that, at the other end, we have good legislation that will keep people safer and ensure that people are brought to justice. At the minute, we are sitting with laws that were brought in during the 1990s.”
“I support the motion moved by the Member for West Belfast and I support the amendments. I see merit in both. I agree with the comments of the Member that, if they could be conjoined in some way, that would bring a better and more complete amendment, but we are where we are. I think that the message has to leave the Chamber today that the House is in agreement that something more needs done. <BR /> <BR />I put on record early on that I support the Minister 100% in her statements that this is her number one priority. It is, indeed, one of five priorities that the Justice Committee has laid down for this mandate; to try to resolve this issue and to protect victims and survivors better when they are involved in this horrendous crime. Domestic abuse now accounts for two and a half times as many crimes as those linked to drugs.”
“— represent and lead those constituents to make sure that we get a better deal for Northern Ireland. There are opportunities here. We should grasp them.”
“I am not saying that at all, but I am saying that you should think about your constituents and what is the best way to —”
“I remind the Member that we have just had a vote. It is called a referendum. I remind the Member that, just as we debate Brexit in this Chamber every week, so does Westminster. Every single MP will have a chance to put their case to the Prime Minister. <BR /> <BR />Here is the point that I want to make before I sit down: Theresa May campaigned to remain, as did some of the Ulster Unionist Party, but she is now Prime Minister and has said clearly that we are leaving the EU. She has got over it. She knows what needs to be done for the betterment of the United Kingdom, and she accepts the democratic wish of the people of the United Kingdom. Why can other parties not accept that? That is not me saying that you should all become pro "Leave".”
“I represent North Antrim, and I will represent all the people there in the next two years: the people who voted to remain and the people who voted to leave. I will represent those people as best I can. I will know what is a good deal for Northern Ireland and what is a bad deal for Northern Ireland, and I will know what part of a deal is bad for Northern Ireland and what part of a deal is good.”
“Some 62% of North Antrim decided that it is better to leave the United Kingdom.”
“I thank the Member for that intervention. I am not suggesting for a moment that the Member is fighting on a nationalist agenda; he does not get any seats in nationalist constituencies, so I understand that. For nationalist parties, for the SDLP, they cannot tell us what the special status could be, just in the same way as anyone else cannot say what Brexit will be. That is because there is a negotiation to be had, and it is to be had by Her Majesty's Government. Brexit will be this: Brexit will be whatever Her Majesty's Government and Brussels agree on. That is what Brexit will be, and it is up to us in Northern Ireland to feed into that negotiation. <BR /> <BR />I am proud that my constituency of North Antrim voted to leave the European Union.”
“I think that this is a lack of confidence. I think that this is the SDLP trying to scrap for nationalist votes in a diminishing market with Sinn Féin. I really think that that is what the motion is about.”
“<BR /> <BR />Throughout the months since the referendum verdict to leave the EU, which I and my constituents supported, as we have gone along, I have heard about how everyone who voted to leave Europe must be stupid, must be racist or must be elderly. Some of the language used around that time was absolutely scandalous. There is no doubt that this is a momentous occasion in the history of the world and, most definitely, Europe. It is probably one of the most seismic changes in post-war Britain. It probably goes right back as the most momentous decision since the home rule crisis. But we have to get over the decision that the United Kingdom population made. <BR /> <BR />When I read the motion, I think, as I sometimes thought with the "Remain" campaign, especially on the nationalist side, that this is desperation.”
“I have an understanding of why the SDLP is bringing this before us again. It is a massive issue for the whole of the United Kingdom, the whole of the EU and, I suppose, the world. I get that. I get why we want to debate it, but, sooner or later, the Prime Minister will trigger article 50; sooner or later, the position of the United Kingdom Government will become clear in the negotiations with the European Union; sooner or later, we will see what is good and what is bad for Northern Ireland within that; and, sooner or later, we will be able to challenge Her Majesty's Government on that and try to influence and change that.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. He talks about a divided Executive, and we all know what a divided Opposition looks like. Does he not realise that, whilst we come from different, opposing positions, when it comes to knowing what is good or bad for Northern Ireland in the Brexit context, we will know that, we will agree to it and we will fight for Northern Ireland?”
“I thank the Minister for her statement. She said that she discussed the ongoing collaborative work between the jurisdictions in a number of areas, including the management of offenders. She will know that sex crime and public protection arrangements is one of five key priorities for the Justice Committee. Will she outline how sex offenders and perpetrators, including those involved in domestic violence and abuse, are monitored on a cross-jurisdictional basis? Does she agree that this is an area that causes a lot of concern? Is further work being undertaken to improve, amongst other things, information sharing?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. Can he be more specific on the current rate of compliance with the entitlement framework?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. St Patrick's Barracks has a rich military history, as does the town of Ballymena. Will the Department protect the identity and legacy of the St Patrick's Barracks site in the redevelopment?”
“That is what needs to happen. The police need to enforce the law better and seize the bikes.”
“The bikes can be seized, and that would send a warning to others that their behaviour cannot be tolerated. Why do we set laws? We do so to protect people and to change the mindset of society.”
“Some of the bikes are strung together, and some riders do not even wear safety gear. Do they not realise the danger to themselves, let alone to the community in which they live and to pedestrians? They also use a public park at the Ecos centre, where many walkers, runners and other people enjoy the environment. They swing round those paths, which are only a metre wide, with little regard for what is around the corner. <BR /> <BR />I believe that the issue can be resolved with better enforcement. I believe that there are times when the police look sympathetically on the actions of young people on scramblers — if they are scrambling about on waste ground, they are not out and about doing other things. That is totally and utterly the wrong message to send out.”
“They do tremendous harm to the communities they sail through. Elderly folk are frightened. Young people are frightened to go out on their tricycles and bikes, and parents are scared to allow their children out. These people ride their scramblers, do wheelies down main avenues and bounce on and off footpaths. That is absolutely no way to treat their community.”
“<BR /> <BR />In Ballymena, Harryville and Ballykeel, which are two distinct built-up areas, are divided by Larne Road Link, which is basically a dual carriageway. There are underpasses, and these young people — maybe not even so young, on some occasions — ride from one area to the other. They use the underpass, which is connected with a network of paths. They get so far, and they are all heading to the one place: either to the south of the town or to Education Authority land in Ballykeel. They have to use the network of paths, cross over roads and then drive down built-up areas. They drive recklessly on footpaths and on roads with 90-degree bends to get to their desired environment. They have no permission on either site to ride scramblers, but they do it thinking they are doing no harm.”
“We had evidence of that only in the last few weeks with young Daniel Sheridan unfortunately losing his life in an accident that was in some way controlled. <BR /> <BR />It is dangerous. That should be a red light flashing and a siren going off for all parents who purchase scramblers and quad bikes. That is the first thing we have to say. Even in a controlled setting and there are marshals, regulations and laws for a course, a track or a race, there are still dangers and risks involved. How much more so, then, when young people go out and about on bikes that are strung together? They go out on footways and highways where there are people, including young people riding their tricycles on footpaths or elderly folk going to do their shopping in the local shop. That is what happens.”
“I support the motion and thank the Member for West Belfast for moving it. Like West Belfast, my constituency, North Antrim, has been plagued by this activity, more so in Ballymena in built-up areas of the town. Before I move on to that, let us talk about the actual motor sport. The motor sport is a very good one. It fascinates young and old, and it gives people a buzz and an interest. That should be encouraged, as young people having interests and hobbies is a good thing — anything that gets them out and about and off their Xbox is a good thing and should be encouraged — but with that comes responsibility. It is a motor sport, and motor sports are dangerous. They come with risks. There is high speed involved, and people can get hurt and people can be killed.”
“It is not easy, and we do not want to work in patchworks, but the fact that the major town of Ballymena has no intermediate beds really needs to be looked at.”
“There you had a facility under threat; the community got together with all the elected representatives, and we worked through plans and progress as to what could happen. I believe that that is something that the Minister can look at, pick up on and run with. That could be a pilot scheme that could be washed out throughout the whole of Northern Ireland. It would not be specific, but you could change it and use it in general right across the country. That is something that people will really value. People want a piece of the health service. They want to feel valued by it, so that when they need it, it will be there and they will be reassured by it. <BR /> <BR />One thing that I will raise in my short time is the need for intermediate beds in Ballymena. We do not have any, and it is something that we should look towards.”
“It is not only in pennies and pounds; it is in health. If there is anywhere that that can be done, it is in the health service. Our health and the health service have the potential to bust us and to bankrupt any nation state, especially in the civilised world. So, it is something that needs to be looked at. <BR /> <BR />As someone who goes through North Antrim hospitals and meets nurses and doctors who work there, I see the real value in all the hospitals. There are nearly too many to mention. I am nearly scared to mention them in case the Minister thinks that there are too many and we should start to close some. They all provide specific services for needs. The pathfinder programme in Dalriada typifies what the community can add to all this.”
“I thank the Member for that contribution. That is a very important point. Whilst the burden will be on the health service and the Health Minister, it will be a burden for us all, because, ultimately, we will all pay for it through our pockets or our health. We will all be burdened and will rely on the health service to get us out of the mess if we can. It is a very important point, but it is very hard. <BR /> <BR />Civil Service land talks about preventative spend. It is a great phrase, but nobody knows what it means, what it costs or how much we pay now to get results in the future. It is very hard to justify that on a balance sheet or in a budget line. That is where any Minister has to be brave and say, "Here is what we feel. If we have preventative spend now and educate the public in it, this is what we will save long term".”
“It may well have saved money, better provisions and fewer buildings in North Antrim and, in fact, in the whole of Northern Ireland. So, decisions that are taken now will echo for decades in any given area of Northern Ireland. That is why it is very important that, when we make decisions, we make the right ones. We have a real duty of care to worry not just about the here and now but about the next generation coming along and the generation after that, because they will be impacted by the decisions that Ministers in the House today make.”
“I support my colleague Mervyn Storey in bringing this to the Assembly. Mervyn has been campaigning for many years for a decent and better health service for the people of North Antrim, and I commend him for that and for bringing this debate to highlight the issue to the Minister. Also, I am glad that the Minister is able to make it here for this Adjournment debate. <BR /> <BR />Looking back on the history of the constituency of North Antrim and its health service, all of us will recognise that, when we meet with the hierarchs of the service and quiz them about the historical linkage and hospital sites, every one of them will mention that they now feel that the Antrim Area Hospital was built in the wrong place. That is nothing against Antrim — certainly not — but it could well have saved an acute hospital.”
“Has the Minister conducted any sort of survey or investigation of sentencing of late? Would that be something that she could take on in order to reassure the public?”