Paul Frew
North Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for that intervention. Nevertheless, there are concerns that I want to address. The Minister and the departmental officials will know that, even from the range of questions that I have asked. We need to make sure that we get the balance correct.”
“In the written and oral evidence received then, the Committee was advised of potential amendments that the Minister may table at Consideration Stage, including an amendment to remove the commissioner that is being considered in liaison with OLC.”
“That in itself causes some victims and witnesses bother, because they are in a system that they are not part of, which means that they do not get the support that they require. That can sometimes leave them feeling retraumatised, as though they have been put through the wringer again.”
“The Bill makes provision to offer those protections and provide clarity to victims that they do not have to face their perpetrator in court. <BR /> <BR />Members asked questions about a range of matters, including the independence of the office, the ability to review the performance of any future commissioner, the costs of establishing th…”
“I thank the Minister for her intervention. She was absolutely right to take that action, as it means that victims' voices are right at the heart of the matters under discussion. It is now obvious to us that that should have been done years ago, but it is good that it is being done now.”
“Officials explained that the Bill would legislate on the disclosure regime not to prevent an application for disclosure but to set out a process whereby the defence would have to show the relevance of the information that it was requesting. That is an important protection.”
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“Having looked at the motion and the amendment, I see no issue with them. I think that what they request of the Education Minister is reasonable enough. It is important that we take this opportunity to pay tribute to all the principals, teachers and staff of schools, not least, all the non-teaching staff, who are working and have worked hard over the past months, beyond the call of duty on many occasions, to provide the children with as much stable education material as possible. <BR /> <BR />We also pay tribute to all the parents who have had to homeschool under really trying, pressurised circumstances at home, where they are trying to work from home and get quality time with their children too. The whole thing becomes a mishmash, and that is really detrimental to family life.”
“The Minister talked about, and has dedicated a page to, the transport sector. We know that there is money held in the centre for transport support. I am not blaming the Minister, because I do not believe that it is his problem, but I do not see anywhere in his statement a bid to support the haulage industry. What is the Minister's take on it and why will the Infrastructure Minister not bring forward a bid to support haulage companies? <BR /> <BR />In my previous question, I asked about the overcommitment currently standing. The Minister said it was in his statement but I cannot find that answer. I ask, again, what is the Executive's current overcommitment for this Budget year?”
“The fact that we had £128 million of an underspend last year proves in some way that the monitoring rounds are important, going forward, so that we do not end up in a situation next year if something further was to happen. <BR /> <BR />I will go straight to my question. At a time when we should invest in skills and work for those skills in any recovery, why has the Minister refused bids from the Department for the Economy and the Department for Infrastructure? I think that the Minister stated that the current overcommitment in this year's Budget was £100 million: will he update the House on the present level of that overcommitment?”
“I thank the Minister, at a time when we need leadership, for his positive leadership throughout the crisis. <BR /> <BR />The Minister rightly points out the massive detrimental impact on the education and, indeed, later life of any child who misses a day of school. Will the Minister outline the plans for social distancing in an early years setting? Will it apply? How will it apply?”
“I welcome the Minister's presence today to answer the question. Given the repurposing and the restrictions on inspections, what consideration was given to adult safeguarding policies, particularly around the risk assessment of individuals and the retention of information possibly required for criminal investigations? What alternative was activated to ensure that risk assessments were undertaken?”
“What is the breakdown of spending across all the schools that have been successful today? Will the Minister enlighten the House on the differences between the school enhancement programme and the major capital works programme?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. There are several drive-in church services taking place in our constituency and they are perfectly safe. Again, what has the ownership issue to do with health and science? It needs to be clarified.”
“Whilst we send more people back to work when the restrictions that we are debating today are lifted, surely we need to look at the childcare element to ensure that those people's families are supported and that their children are minded when they go back to work. We need to grasp that and resolve it. <BR /> <BR />I support and welcome the lifting of the restrictions but the messaging has to be clearer. The science must be published in order that people can see the logic of the decisions. I ask the Ministers, in their reply, to address the issue of family visitation in step 1.”
“OK, Mr Deputy Speaker. I respect your ruling on that. <BR /> <BR />I have nearly finished, but I also want to talk about the restrictions on childcare provision. The childcare sector is in a very difficult position. I welcome the First Minister's announcement on the issue. That has come as some relief to childcare workers. It was a farce that the key workers element of childcare was not in line with the key workers aspect of who should go to work and who should not. That has been a problem the whole way through. Key workers, such as electrical and gas workers, could not get childcare support for their families. It just seemed to be a nonsense. That is something that still needs to be resolved completely. The childcare sector is struggling with very little support and needs to be opened up in a safe manner.”
“It was announced that each aspect of the step-change plan would not go at the same speed, and I get that. That is quite simple. However, each box was to go at the same time. Family visitation was one part of a box that has been left behind. I simply pose this question: was that geared up for the science? Was the family visitation right placed in step 1 because of science and medical advice? If it was, has that science and medical advice changed?”
“Yes. Let me be clear. I believe that the regulations had to come in to save lives, but, the very day and hour that they came in, I posed this question: how do we get out of them? That has proved to be difficult. I think that I was proved right. There has been confusion about lifting. I make the point about family visitations being in step 1 of the recovery plan. How did that ever come about? How is it the case that we have not completely finished step 1 when we are already going through and have, I think, nearly completed step 2, but we have not, and we are eating away at step 3 and, I think, are now even into step 4?”
“I will, Mr Deputy Speaker. For the ambulance workers and staff who have been at the forefront of the battle and have gone into people's homes, where COVID-19 could well have been present, to be attacked in that way is harsh.”
“We have clapped our NHS staff for so many weeks now, and rightly so, but, if we can give them greater protection with tougher sentencing for assault, that is some way that we can go to reward them and to guarantee their safety in the future. It will not stop attacks, because obviously —.”
“Before the Assembly fell, I had a private Member's Bill to bring attacks on accident and emergency staff into line with the tougher sentencing. I think that the Executive and the Minister should look at that. I recall the Minister giving a commitment that he would do that. That is vital. It is a way in which we can help to protect staff. There was always a question about whether the private Member's Bill was too restrictive in being about accident and emergency staff only, but I hope that the Health Minister will look at that.”
“It is horrific in normal times, but it is even more horrific in the height of crisis. A number of years ago, I brought in legislation that created tougher sentences for attacks on ambulance workers. That brought ambulance workers into line with police officers and the Fire Service, and it was greatly needed.”
“Some people will say, "Sod youse. Youse told us that the last time and the numbers were not as first feared. Is this one big conspiracy?". I know that I am being flippant with language but it is to prove a point. I am thinking this and the public are thinking this. I am only relaying what some of the public are thinking, and their number is getting greater by the day. The Executive really have to focus and double down on the messaging around the fact that, with the lifting of restrictions, the risk is greater. That balance is not there at the minute; it is the other way about. People are thinking that the lifting of restrictions means the lessening of risk. That is a really fundamental error for any of us to make. <BR /> <BR />My colleague Pam Cameron raised the issue of attacks on ambulance workers. That is horrific.”
“You need to realise that the restrictions having gone does not mean that the risk has gone". People are equating those. People are saying, "Oh, it is OK now to go shopping so it is OK now; there is no health risk". However, really, there is a greater health risk because the exposure is greater. That message needs to get out. I do not know whether it is getting out or whether it has failed, but it needs to be reinforced time and time again. <BR /> <BR />I must say that, even when I saw people out and about over the weekend, it looked as if it was June 2019 rather than June 2020. I really worry about people's health. If we have any sort of second wave, imagine going to businesses and saying, "OK, folks, we have to have another shutdown". That will end it for most. Most of the people will say, "If I close again, I am not reopening".”
“<BR /> <BR />It is about messaging. People are equating the lifting of restrictions with the lessening of risk. That is a massive issue. For the last 12 weeks, most people have been cocooned in their homes and washing their hands like blazes. I have never washed my hands so much. There is an argument that it is always good to be hygienic and have good personal hygiene habits. However, there is also an argument that, if you are cocooned in your own bubble and are not meeting anybody, washing hands is very good but not necessarily essential. What we need to say now is, "Now that you are being lifted out of these restrictions, interfacing with more people, touching more surfaces and going into more shops and other buildings, you need to wash your hands quadruple the amount that you did in the last 12 weeks.”
“However, it seems that so many of our population are now at the point where these regulations do not count. That is worrying. <BR /> <BR />I know that the best intentions of the Executive were to protect life and make sure that we did not burden the NHS, so I get the rationale for the regulations. However, we need to be realistic about draconian legislation that legislates for every twist and turn of people's lives. We need to be honest and ask this: has it worked to the extent that we thought that it would? That is an easier question to answer as we have loosened the restrictions. What has now happened in many people's minds is that they have just flipped over and are trying to go back to normal. The way that they spent last summer is consistent with their thought process now, and that is a worry for me.”
“The PSNI told the Justice Committee weeks ago that they were not going to enforce, I think, section 4, which deals with the travel aspect. They told us that they were simply not going to do it anymore. How do you expect an events promoter or organiser to police the number of people in a vehicle and make sure that each person in a vehicle is from the same household? <BR /> <BR />Over the last number of weeks, I have witnessed large numbers of young people in cars. "Cruising" is the term that I think that they use; I am not young enough to know. I worry about that. It is especially young people who are out and about in that way. It is not everybody. I will not be general about the issue because many will be adhering to the regulations for fear of their own health and their own life.”
“It is a bit of a farce, is it not? I would like that to be explained to me and for as much information about that aspect to be released, as soon as possible, so that people can at least see the rationale and justification for that when they are in their homes and are unable to visit their loved ones. If we got it wrong in putting it into step 1 and family visitation in their homes should have been in step 3 or 4, then so be it. Say that. Say that we got that aspect wrong. However, if we have always been going by science, how did we get it wrong? <BR /> <BR />I also want to raise an issue about the restrictions that we are talking about today and the allowing of drive-in aspects of social activity. The police have refused to enforce some of the regulations.”
“A family member will not put another family member at risk. They would take extra precautions if they were able to get visits from family members. It is a massive issue and placing that aspect in step 1 was fundamentally wrong if it was not meant to have been there in the first place. <BR /> <BR />My question is this: when you were working out the step plan, what was the scientific and medical advice that told you to put family visitations into step 1? If there was medical and scientific advice on that, why has it not been lifted in step 1? We are now through step 2, are eating into step 3, and I am sure, in some aspects, we are into step 4. To be honest with you, I am not sure; I am getting confused. Why is it that family members have to go to retail outlets, such as clothing shops, to meet their grandchildren?”
“I agree 100%: the more information that we can get out into the public, the better it will be for the public. It will help to inform them and allow them to see the rationale behind the decisions that are being made. It would also help people to align with the regulations, because I fear that, especially over the last week and a half or two weeks, so many of our population have flouted the law and the rules and have basically said, "We are not going to follow the regulations any more". <BR /> <BR />The issue of the family unit is fundamental. There are so many vulnerable people out there in family settings who do not know what to do for the best or whether they can visit the family members who they miss the most. They cannot have their children and grandchildren around to their homes.”
“Why then was that aspect of step 1 in step 1 if we have not even completed step 1 but are mostly through step 1? It feels and seems as if families have been left behind. <BR /> <BR />A great deal of very good work has been done by businesses and the Executive in listening to businesses. They have been able to open things up and get things cranked up again. People and businesses are very thankful for that, but is it not a bit of a farce that you can visit a family member in a garden centre, a shopping centre or, soon to be, a pub, but you cannot visit them in their homes? Is it not a farce that you can go to their back gardens but you cannot enter their premises to use the toilet?”
“I am glad that that has been clarified and retailers can open, but that has had a massive impact for people and businesses that have struggled because they have not been open for all these months, and some have not been able to avail themselves of support, although many have and that has been very, very welcome. <BR /> <BR />What annoys folk more than anything is that it seems to be that the very bricks of society, the very unit of society — the family — has been left behind. I do not know why, but when you look through the step change plan that was released by the Executive, it states in step 1 that you could visit family members indoors. Why was that in step 1? We have always been told that medical advice and science dictates.”
“Some retailers published statements on a Friday night that they were opening on the Monday, but they had to retract them on the Saturday or Sunday. Some businesses went on ahead and opened anyway, even though it was against the regulations. When I spoke to council officials and businesses spoke to council officials, it was very clear that they were not going to enforce the regulations. That poses the question: what good is law or regulations if they are not going to be enforced? <BR /> <BR />So, some businesses opened that should not have opened. Some businesses put out statements that they were going to open and then retracted those the next day. They remained closed, but they were looking down the street and seeing similar businesses opened. There was confusion for a long time.”
“That then has ramifications for the publication of announcements, media messages and everything else. If we do not get the message right, we will put people's lives at risk. I have always been nervous about these regulations and this draconian law that has been brought into people's homes and marks out every twist and turn of their life and tries to legislate for it. Whilst it has saved lives, it has not really worked, and, worse than that, it may have had a detrimental effect on people's lives in many ways that we will not really see until it surfaces many weeks and months from now. <BR /> <BR />Some examples of that are the lifting of restrictions for shops. When that announcement was made, there was massive confusion in some sectors as to whether or not they could open.”
“First, I will address the issue that was raised by Colin McGrath, the Chair of the Committee, regarding the time lag between the House debating these regulations and the lifting of such regulations. Whilst I will not be too hard on the Assembly and the cogs that turn very slowly, this goes to prove once again that draconian legislation like this does not fit. It does not fit the Assembly system or the accountability and the democratic apparatus with which we hold these things to account. So, it is a bit of a farce that we are debating lifting regulations that have been lifted. It is bizarre. <BR /> <BR />Whilst the amendments are welcome, they seem to raise further questions every time, which the Executive struggle to deal with and answer.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I hear what he says and I agree with him with regard to the function of government, and the Programme for Government doing the best it can for all our people. Would the Member agree with me that we have not even had a chance to align the Budget with the Programme for Government to make sure that we populate those outputs with financial clout in order to get to a place and move in a direction that will benefit all the people in the Programme for Government?”
“I appreciate the Member giving way. Does he realise, though, that whilst we recognise that mental health goes right across the spectrum of society, we are really talking about the warning procedures that are in place in the Civil Service that disproportionately affect the Prison Service to the tune of 60%? If you take a panoramic view of the Civil Service, you might ask why 60% of those warnings are going to the Prison Service. There is something wrong.”
“<BR /> <BR />The charade and the game that some prisoners play is ridiculous, but it is a very dangerous game, and it comes with so many risks for our Prison Service staff that they cannot rest when they are at home. It affects not only them as prison officers but their families. How many families and how many members of those families have been intimidated, physically and psychologically? How many have been seriously injured because a parent happens to work as a prison officer? What those families go through is horrendous, and the pressure that they go through is undeniable. Something needs to change, and we need to fix this for those people.”
“Yes, I agree. If it is OK to protest and to fight for one sector of the world or a community, surely it is OK to be here today talking about a specific sector of our Civil Service. Absolutely. We see so much difference in the staff and what they have to endure and work through daily. I have been in the prisons and have seen the psychological effect that some prisoners place on Prison Service officials. I have seen the games played. I walked into the separated wings and, just because I was a suit that nobody knew, they wanted to know who I was and who gave the Prison Service the permission for me to be there. That is ridiculous.”
“Surely, that is wrong. Where is the strong arm of comfort here? Where is the wrap-around service? Where is the protection? Those people risk their lives for us.”
“I commend the Prison Service's leadership. Since I became an MLA 10 years ago, I have seen a vast improvement in the leadership of the Prison Service to get us to the point that we are at now. Much more can be done, but we have to give credit where credit is due. <BR /> <BR />The Member raised issues about the procedures that the Civil Service goes through to bring somebody back to work. If you are experiencing mental health problems or stress, are being told that you are not efficient and have received a warning that can stay on your record for two years, that is so impactful that it actually reinforces the mental illness. It will only make conditions worse; it will not make them any better. The stress and strains for that individual and the heap and weight that is being placed on them by colleagues and by their leadership is immense.”
“No other job in the Civil Service contains that. Not only that, when they go to work, as I said earlier, the built environment there is not conducive to safety, good mental health and well-being. We have made great strides, but let us face it: it is not.”
“Not every Member can fight on every issue, so it is important that MLAs pick something up and run with it and make a real difference. If every MLA does that, the world can be a better place. <BR /> <BR />Doug is absolutely right to bring the issue in the motion to our attention. He is absolutely right about the need for Prison Service staff to be treated with respect and dignity and to be treated differently from other Civil Service staff for the simple reason that they do a completely different and specific role. There is nowhere else in the Civil Service, albeit that there are some other very difficult roles and jobs, where, in the course of your day's work, you interface and interact with people who have massive issues, massive problems and are highly dangerous and then go home and still face the spectre of threats and intimidation.”
“I support the motion very much. It is great that we have Private Members' Business back in the House. It should never have been left off the agenda in the first place. Private Members' Business is vital to get Members' points of view across. This debate illustrates why it is so important to have private Members' motions, and I commend Doug on it. I sit with him on the Justice Committee and respect him for the job that he does. It is great to see an individual MLA picking up an issue and really running with it and forcing it into the mindset of every other MLA. I commend him on this. I am sure that he will reciprocate and support me in my fight to try to get independence for the System Operator for Northern Ireland (SONI). These and all the other issues that we fight for on an individual basis are very important.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Does the Member agree that the built form — the environment — in which they work, comprising blocks, small quarters and doors opening outwards, poses danger and risk?”
“Given that a disproportionate number of my constituents have been affected by Thompson, who had previously lost their jobs in Wrightbus, it proves that the manufacturing industry is, indeed, a regional industry. Will the Minister provide assurance to the House that manufacturing will be supported? Thompson and Wrightbus are innovative companies, with Wrightbus having the hydrogen bus innovation hub, and Thompson, with its cutting-edge technology. Will there be support to allow businesses to retract when they have to but to increase in size when they can?”
“Does the Minister agree that draconian legislation that applies to every twist and turn of a person's life, even in their home, is impossible to police? It is impossible for the police to police and enforce that. In her answer to my colleague Mr Paul Givan, was the Minister suggesting to the House that she does not support the lifting of any of the restrictions to date?”
“<BR /> <BR />If the most ardent Remainer in the Chamber thinks that they can prolong an exit without trying to get a settled view, once and for all, to move forward, they are only heaping more damage onto the business community and the people of Northern Ireland. That is something that I cannot ever support. We have seen the aggressive nature of the EU at its worst throughout the negotiations. That surprised me, because I would have been in favour of giving people a choice and give a referendum to the people to decide. I never thought, in my worst nightmares, that the EU's stance and aggressive nature towards this little part of the world would be so intense.”
“Yes. I cannot understand how any libertarian worth his salt could support the bureaucratic nightmare that the EU is and will become increasingly to its peoples. I am glad, for one, that the UK is getting out. The problem for this country — this nation, here in Northern Ireland — is the protocol and the damaging effect that it will have. The nature of EU's aggression towards Northern Ireland is such that it has, basically, held us hostage. It has seen the UK leaving through the door and has grabbed little Northern Ireland to use it as nothing more than a bargaining chip in the only way that the EU knows how: by negotiation. That is not a place where any of us should be.”
“Yes, and, of course, interventions should be short. <BR /> <BR />The fact is that Sinn Féin sold its soul to the EU in order to create a divisive matter on this island and in Northern Ireland itself.”
“The party opposite is the biggest anti-EU party on this island and has been throughout its history. It just so happened that its members were very quiet coming up to the referendum; very quiet indeed. Not like them; very quiet. Then, all of a sudden, when they saw the results, my goodness how they turned tail. Now their party is the biggest pro-EU party about. They try to rewrite history —.”
“<BR /> <BR />My natural home in politics is libertarianism, which is not to be confused with, as it has been on many occasions in this House, with liberalism. I cannot understand the logic of any libertarian supporting the beast that is the EU and its direction of travel. <BR /> <BR />I will defend the right of any MLA to bring a private Members' motion to the Assembly Chamber for debate, so you have got me there, and I will debate it graciously. I respect the SDLP as it is in its DNA to support this. I cannot help but question the motive for an extension to the transition period. Is it to try to stifle, ruin, wreck and sabotage the British negotiating stance? If it is, that would be harmful to us all. <BR /> <BR />What really takes me to the fair is the stance of the party opposite.”
“I am probably the most pro-European MLA in this Chamber. I love Europe: I love its peoples, I love its history and I am fascinated by its architecture. I love Europe. It is because I am so pro-European that I am, by design, so anti-EU. What the EU will choose to become is a question that no one in this Chamber can answer. <BR /> <BR />Fair play to the SDLP, because throughout its history it has been very pro-EU and, before that, pro the Common Market. I suggest that even some SDLP Members cannot answer and grapple with the question of what the EU will become. It is already a bureaucratic giant; how will that ever be conducive to, and good for, democratic processes on the continent of Europe? It is beyond me.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I agree with everything that he says. The problem with tax-varying powers is that sometimes you tend to touch the levers too much, and they can go both ways. So you can come under political pressure to reduce taxation as well as having the pain of increasing it. More than that, you would still have a limited pot of money. No matter how much you raised, you would still have a limited pot of money. It is about the efficiency of that spend as much as anything. As much as having the powers, it is how efficient you can be at spending that money that is the real scrutiniser that we need to drill down into to make sure that money is being spent in the best way.”
“Preventing information going to a scrutiny Committee is unacceptable, unjust and diabolical.”
“To get back to the Bill, we have no choice really because bills need to be paid and money needs to flow. However, Departments, including the Department of Finance, need to do so much better. If we have to compel officials to come before our Committees, we will do so. We will get to the truth by hook or by crook. Whether it takes us a week, a month or a year, we will not let this drop. I will not let this drop. I want to see everything and have the information in front of me so that I can judge things on my own. Nobody, except the Committee and its individual members, should decide what information we get and do not get. In this day and age, after everything that we have been through, it is unacceptable that any Department can stop information flowing to a scrutiny Committee.”
“It is our job as MLAs to scrutinise legislation and policy in our Committees. If we cannot do that or, worse still, are prevented from doing that by a Minister, a Department and officials, we are in a very grave place. I thank the Member for his contribution.”