Paul Frew
North Antrim · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for that intervention. Nevertheless, there are concerns that I want to address. The Minister and the departmental officials will know that, even from the range of questions that I have asked. We need to make sure that we get the balance correct.”
“In the written and oral evidence received then, the Committee was advised of potential amendments that the Minister may table at Consideration Stage, including an amendment to remove the commissioner that is being considered in liaison with OLC.”
“That in itself causes some victims and witnesses bother, because they are in a system that they are not part of, which means that they do not get the support that they require. That can sometimes leave them feeling retraumatised, as though they have been put through the wringer again.”
“The Bill makes provision to offer those protections and provide clarity to victims that they do not have to face their perpetrator in court. <BR /> <BR />Members asked questions about a range of matters, including the independence of the office, the ability to review the performance of any future commissioner, the costs of establishing th…”
“I thank the Minister for her intervention. She was absolutely right to take that action, as it means that victims' voices are right at the heart of the matters under discussion. It is now obvious to us that that should have been done years ago, but it is good that it is being done now.”
“Officials explained that the Bill would legislate on the disclosure regime not to prevent an application for disclosure but to set out a process whereby the defence would have to show the relevance of the information that it was requesting. That is an important protection.”
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“I will turn to the Budget. I agree with the Chair that there has to be a better way of scrutinising a Budget Bill. Having said that, we are a devolved Assembly and not a sovereign Government. We get Barnett consequentials, the block grant and all that that entails. You struggle to think of a more effective and efficient way until you stumble upon one, so whilst we are in this environment, we will do the best we can, as a Committee and as an Assembly. <BR /> <BR />The Assembly has a vital role, and I am glad that the Chairpersons of all the Committees have a part to play in the debate, as, of course, do ordinary Committee members, if they so wish.”
“Of course, the Committee is there not only to scrutinise but to support and advise. As Deputy Chairperson of the Committee, I take that role very seriously.”
“I rise to discuss and debate the Budget Bill. Of course, the Minister is absolutely right that a very important Bill comes before the Assembly today. I agree with everything that the Chairperson said about the Finance Committee's experience over the past year. I place on record that I welcome, thank and respect the officials who have come before the Committee over the past year. They are very informed, at the top of their game. They have grappled not only with the challenges of the health pandemic and the economic crisis but with members of the Committee as well. At times, of course, those sessions can be robust, but that is good and healthy in a democratic society. I welcome the officials' expertise at all times when they come before the Committee because they really help us.”
“When we look through the figures, we even see that sometimes bids are partly successful. We have no justification or rationale for why that is the case or how much of it was successful. Was it 50% or 75% of the bid?”
“Why do we want those powers when we cannot spend the money that we are given?”
“You could not even put a scheme on the ground, yet there was a ready-made scheme in the wider UK context that could have been adopted and used. The party opposite has failed the people in that regard, and it is simply not good enough. We must do better, and, in this year of crisis, it has proven that, when the sovereign Government throw money at us, we do not have the ability or the capacity to spend it, yet we want more fiscal powers.”
“I am on record as supporting that and supporting that organisation, but the Department of Finance and other Departments, such as the Department for Communities, could have done much more, but they have not, and they have failed the people. What did people out there who are crying out for support want? They wanted a joined-up Executive. They wanted an Executive that would come together and strategise a way out of this, both health-wise and economic-wise. That has not taken place. <BR /> <BR />I regret that that has not taken place. I refer to the Kickstart failure by the Department for Communities, whose Minister is from the Member's party. Where is the Kickstart programme? Where are those jobs for young people, who were to be supported? It is non-existent. You could not even deliver a scheme.”
“Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. I will certainly take the extra minute. You have to remember that the Department for the Economy delivered over 40 financial support schemes, worth about half a billion pounds. Of course people have been excluded, and every single MLA should be fighting for those people and for those sectors, but do you know something? You get to a point in a Department where your capacity is filled, whereas there are some Departments in this place that have not put their shoulder to the wheel one bit. <BR /> <BR />I will give credit to the LPS. The one scheme that it has administered has been very good, and that is a body that is designed to bring rates in, not to push money out.”
“I have heard the Members opposite blaming Tory austerity once more. When is it ever going to end? Of course, yes, those were hard times, but you cannot spend money that you do not have. In fact, the party opposite cannot even spend the money that it does have. It is very important that we consider that. They talk about austerity, but you have to remember that, through the DUP confidence-and-supply agreements, our party brought back, in that two- or three-year period, the same monetary value that we lost in austerity.”
“I can remember, a number of months back, asking the Communities Minister why the wider UK scheme had not been adopted, and the answer that I got was, "We are preparing a better scheme". We have no scheme; no scheme whatsoever.”
“From that, we see that Sinn Féin criticises other Departments, as is its right. However, when Sinn Féin looks at the Budget, it does not look at itself. As I said, the Department for Communities could not even bring forward the Kickstart programme that would have helped get young people into jobs.”
“The Department for the Economy was 36% successful, Infrastructure was 33% successful, DAERA was 31% successful, the Department of Education was less than 50% successful, and the Department of Justice was less than 50% successful. There seems to be a trend. All of these Departments were willing to bring forward bids. I will pick out the Department for the Economy and the Department of Education. It seems that the Finance Minister refused those bids. There may be reasons for that, and the Minister might outline them today, but that does not strike me as a strategic way of doing government in the Executive. <BR /> <BR />Today, I heard some Chairpersons criticise some of the Departments that I have named. One was the Chairperson of the Economy Committee. Remember, Economy was the Department with the most bids.”
“However, it seems that less is more in the Health Department's case: its bids totalled more than £1 billion, which is substantially higher than any other Department. What does that tell us? It tells us that some Departments thought strategically and were willing, able and capable of bidding for finance. Of course, some Departments were very successful. The Department of Finance, with its one bid, received that money; Health received 95% of what it asked for; TEO received 93%; and Communities received 89%, despite the fact that it could not deliver the Kickstart programme. <BR /> <BR />Some Departments were less successful.”
“When I asked the Finance Minister about a strategy to get us out of the health and economic aspects of this situation, he always said that it was about bids coming to him. He said that he would assess those bids and make a decision. A Finance Minister having to wait for bids from other Departments does not strike me as strategic. There is a fundamental weakness in that. <BR /> <BR />The Department for the Economy made 88 bids, 81 of which were COVID bids. That is the highest number of bids submitted. The Department of Education made 56 bids: 42 COVID bids and 14 non-COVID bids. That was the highest number of non-COVID bids submitted by any Department. Even the Department for Infrastructure made 40 bids, 34 of which were COVID bids. The Department of Finance submitted only one bid. The Health Department submitted 13 bids.”
“We are here to debate the spring Supplementary Estimates. What a funny year it has been for all of us. It has been a very challenging year for all departmental officials. I put on record my thanks to the officials who came to the Committee. As the Chairperson alluded to, they have kept us informed every step of the way and given us a lot of detail during the year. They have been grappling with the financial figures, and they have been grappling with us. I pay tribute to all of them. <BR /> <BR />Looking at the spring Supplementary Estimates, we have the opportunity to look back on the financial year. Throughout the year, I have been looking for a joined-up Executive — a cohesive, joined-up, collective decision-making body that will help us to fight this crisis — and I have been shocked and disappointed in equal measure.”
“I thank the Minister for her very clear answer. Does she agree that the protocol is causing significant economic and societal harm in Northern Ireland and that it cannot be business as usual in respect of North/South relationships, given the horrific and unhealthy attitude of the Republic of Ireland's Government towards Northern Ireland during the EU-UK negotiations and the actions of the NIO in changing the Belfast Agreement regarding consent? Will she assure the House that she will partake in North/South activity only when there is a clear advantage for Northern Ireland, its businesses and its people?”
“I certainly agree with the Minister that the regulations and law are inadequate at this time. She talks about advice and what should and should not happen with regard to the COVID regulations. However, she is part of the Executive who form the legislation. She shares that role with Members of other parties. It seems to be the case that members of other parties — in particular, Sinn Féin — were involved in some shape or form with the memorial service on the Ormeau Road. Can the Minister enlighten the House as to her advice to the political parties with which she sits on the Executive on organising or attending those events during lockdown?”
“Is the First Minister aware of the legislative options open to the Executive or the Assembly?”
“<BR /> <BR />This is a good day for victims — albeit, three years too late. I look forward to the Bill getting to Committee Stage, where we can delve in and do a piece of work on it, as the Committee should do. I have faith in the Justice Committee to do the work on this and, if amendments are forthcoming, they will be in the best interest of the Bill and the victims whom it is meant to protect. I welcome it, and I will leave it there.”
“That is a very important line, and it speaks to the future, but we will need more than that. We will need to delve into that line and see what it means, because it is no mean feat to tackle that and to nail it down in legislation. That is a massive issue on its own. The use of electronic devices to hurt people, impact their lives, change the course of their life and even blackmail people is real, and it is mighty. It has led to deaths; it has led to suicides. We need to look at that and see how we can strengthen it and make it fit for purpose going forward. We need to delve into that. Whilst I am thankful that it is in the Bill in clause 1, which defines the offence of stalking, and it is a very important line, we may have to look into that and see whether we can add to it because it will be important going forward.”
“There is another definition at 4(d) which is:”
“Interestingly, for domestic violence, it is 14 years. I want to pursue that and try to tease out why that differential exists. I am not saying that they are the same offence or the same nature of offence, but we have to look at where the bar is being set. That is critical. <BR /> <BR />One of the most important lines in this Bill, as it stands, is in clause 1, "Offence of stalking", subsection 4, paragraph (b) with regard to:”
“One of the interesting points that I picked up is that the tariff for the offence of stalking, on conviction on indictment, is:”
“It is there every conscious second that you are awake, to the point where it affects your sleep and your life. It will destroy you if you are not given help and support, and I hope that the Bill goes some way to providing that. <BR /> <BR />The Bill creates three offences. I have looked at and assessed those offences. Some of them are undeniable, such as the offence of stalking. I welcome the fact that we now have a descriptor and a description of stalking. It is vital that we have that specified and nailed down in the Bill. Interestingly, it also creates the offence of threatening or abusive behaviour and the offence of breaching an order, which is very important, because there are so many weaknesses with regard to protection orders. We have to nail those down, and I hope that the offence will go some way towards doing that.”
“It is so severe that it could lead to murder or destroy a life. That is what we are dealing with today. We are dealing with stalking: murder in slow motion. Please let no one forget that today or as we move forward. <BR /> <BR />This crime can close in on you. You could be confident and go to work, but your work could become a prison where everywhere you move, even where you sit, becomes your prison. It could impact your street: your street could become your prison. It could impact your family; your family could be lodged with you in prison. Every time you look to your phone or to your computer, whether at work or at home, you see a window of despair with no way out. That is the impact of stalking. It does not just happen when you see or sense the perpetrator or see a text that he or she has just sent you. It is there every living second.”
“The young lass — a highly professional, well-kept, well-dressed and confident person — came to my office about a stalking issue. When I see that lady today, many years later, it is to help her to fill in PIP forms, because of the impact of stalking. The young lass was destroyed by an ex-partner, to the point where she cannot hold down a job, cannot look after herself and cannot even get out of bed in the morning because of her fear, nervousness, depression and anxiety. Stalking has destroyed that young girl, and it breaks my heart that I have to help her to fill in PIP forms and go with her to an appeal for PIP. That young girl was on top of the world before that happened to her. Make no mistake: stalking should not be on anyone's lips as the butt of a joke, and it should not be in anybody's everyday language.”
“Not only that, but perpetrators should be managed and assessed for risk going forward. That is why it is vital that there are criminal offences in the Bill, and I will talk about those in a minute. <BR /> <BR />There is a reason why we have to talk about stalking as murder in slow motion. This has happened today, but we are all to blame, because we are used to that in our everyday language. For many people, stalking can be the butt of jokes, and that is very hurtful to the victims. It is human nature that we all slip up in our language, and it is human nature that we make mistakes. It was in our everyday language, but we need to stop that, because we are hurting the victims. <BR /> <BR />The impact of stalking is mighty. I dealt with a case for a constituent who came to me many years ago about a stalking issue with an ex-boyfriend.”
“Stalking is not harassment. Harassment is not stalking. Harassment can mean many things. I believe that "harassment" is an umbrella term for the way that people can feel harassed. Harassment can take place between two neighbours who fell out 15 years ago over a hedge or a shared boundary. That initial complaint and the actions that proceed from it can be harassment. It is not stalking, which is something completely different. Stalking is insidious, and the perpetrators of it are fixated, obsessed and need to be checked. <BR /> <BR />One good thing that will come from the Bill is management. The Committee should look at the afterwork, or aftercare, not only for the victims — that is critical — but for the perpetrators, who have to be managed and cared for.”
“<BR /> <BR />The move to bring stalking into a specific criminal offence aims to not only stop stalking, differentiate it from general harassment or prevent the fear of stalking and its impact, but to prevent people being murdered. When we talk about stalking, we really need to talk about it using this definition: it is murder in slow motion. <BR /> <BR />In most cases, thankfully, the perpetrator does not get to that point. However, let us look at who we are dealing with. Perpetrators of the crime of stalking are fixated. They are obsessive. Stalking is an insidious crime. I have absolutely no doubt that the perpetrators need help. If they are allowed to conduct unchecked the actions that they have set for themselves, it will, in many cases, inevitably lead to murder. <BR /> <BR />That is how we should look at stalking.”
“In one of the final acts of this place in 2006, we brought over Laura Richards — the Chairperson alluded to this — for a seminar at which all the players and organisations that feature in the matter were present. I look forward to meeting them all again in the Committee so that we can bring forward what I believe will be a very good and welcome piece of legislation. <BR /> <BR />I think that it was David Cameron who many years ago first announced that stalking was to be made a specific criminal offence. It is right and proper that we acknowledge that we have failed victims in that we were unable to meet. The legislation comes three years too late. It is very similar to the domestic abuse legislation, and we will strive to work through it and to produce a good piece of legislation.”
“However, let me place on record my thanks to the members of that Committee and the Minister of Justice at that time, Claire Sugden, who worked with us in conducting a review of what would be good stalking legislation in this country. The Minister was then taking forward the domestic violence and abuse legislation. At that time, I saw real potential for a working partnership between scrutiny Committees and the Ministers that they support and advise. The Minister gave me guarantees that she would pick up the work of the Committee and run with it to produce the Protection from Stalking Bill. I thank the present Minister for tabling the Bill for Second Reading.”
“I thank the Minister for bringing the Bill's Second Stage to the House. I also thank the Chairperson and deputy Chairperson of the Committee and other members, including my colleague Doug Beattie, for highlighting the work of the previous Committee. I stress to Members that, whilst we can point to many great actions that our Committees take, I point to the relationship between the Justice Committee and the Justice Minister at that time and the way in which we were working in tandem and in partnership to produce good law. Unfortunately, as many Members mentioned, we were stopped from doing that work.”
“I make the point to the Member through the Chair that that is the case for every private Member's Bill, even one coming from the party opposite.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. He talked about having to go again at legislation. Mr O'Dowd mentioned at every stage of the Bill an agreement that was made in the Executive at a point in time. The Executive could make an agreement about welfare reform or any aspect of government. Would that then stop a private Member bringing forward a Bill on welfare reform? If it did and if the Executive parties voted it down, where would democracy be? Where would the House be? It would be in a very bad place.”
“I wish the Bill sponsor all the best. I wish the Finance Committee all the best for the future for its next scrutiny piece. I commend the Bill to the House.”
“No one — Minister or special adviser — should communicate official information to another to the improper financial or other benefit of another person. That brings me to the heart of the issue of transparency and accountability. It is vital that that becomes a criminal offence because it is just not right; in fact, it should be criminal. That is probably the most significant clause with regard to an offence. It is the only one left, but it is important and raises the bar. It raises the bar for all officials — sorry, not officials because that is one thing that I would not have taken out; I would have left the Civil Service piece in. It tells us that the Minister and the special adviser have a standard to keep. That must be kept in the Bill. I commend clause 10, and I commend the Bill. <BR /> <BR />We will most definitely support the Bill.”
“Clause 13 brings that to the Bill and brings it into law. I very much welcome that. <BR /> <BR />I hope that the Bill passes. I wish the Bill sponsor all the best. I wish the Committee all the best in its next endeavour with a Bill. I note that the Bill has been somewhat watered down from what the Bill sponsor originally intended. He has lost some of the criminal elements to it. There is one left, and that is unauthorised disclosure, which I absolutely support.”
“They are the gatekeepers of democratic accountability in this place. Whilst the Minister's job is to conduct their role in the Department and to administer law and responsibilities in that Department, it is Chairpersons, Deputy Chairpersons and Committee members who have the task and role of making sure that they scrutinise the work, advise and support. That is vital is this day and age. That is why I was motivated to table the amendments that were then, happily, adopted in the Bill. Whilst, of course, I welcome all Members having the ability to amend that at another stage, it is important that, when it comes to in-year monitoring rounds and the financial aspect of government — how we get money down to our peoples to support them and how we spend people's money, which is probably more important — there is an accountable process.”
“Whilst I love all-inclusive government and the fact that five parties can now agree to form an Executive and get on with the work, I believe that the lack of an opposition in this place or in any legislature is amiss, awry and a negative. Whilst we all know the way that we have travelled, where we have come from and where we hope to get to, the lack of an opposition is a real concern for me, because, with the best will in the world, you need that opposition. It has been proven throughout the world in democratic circles that having an opposition is key. <BR /> <BR />Where do we get our scrutiny from? Simply, we get it from the House but more so from the Committees in it, which are our last line of defence. The work of Committees — they really do admirable work — and the positions of Chairpersons and Deputy Chairpersons are vital.”
“Since we came back, I have been concerned about accountability and the relationship between Committees and Departments. I am still very much aggrieved by that relationship. I do not believe that it is, in any way or form, a healthy one. It needs to be improved on. Departments should look on Committees as more of a partner than a scrutiniser, because, in that way, we will get far better, far more efficient government and things will tick along much better and be much freer. <BR /> <BR />On clause 13 and the Assembly's scrutiny of the Executive's in-year monitoring process, it is vital that, while we have in this place a five-party mandatory coalition, our Committees do that work. A more important issue, I suppose, than having a five-party coalition Government is the lack of an opposition. That is a massive issue.”
“He voted in the opposite Lobby that night, and it was his right to do so, but that amendment fell. The other amendment passed and is now in the Bill. I know that the Member was concerned and annoyed by my party's position that night. I could take the same view with regard to my clause 13, which was amended by my SDLP colleagues across the way. I will not fret about that, because, you know what, that is the democratic process. Do I think that the amendment from the Members opposite weakened my clause? Yes, I do, but that was what was passed in the House. That is democracy, and we respect that. Of course we respect it. It is the only way to go. <BR /> <BR />That brings me on to my clause: clause 13. I am glad that I have been able to affect the Bill positively.”
“I thank the Member for his forensic look at how I have conducted myself at previous stages of the Bill. It is simply a matter of coming to a decision and reaching a settled view. When you get the Marshalled List, you go through the amendments, talk them through with party colleagues and come to a conclusion. If you are convinced otherwise on the night, so be it, but I assure the Member that I had come to that settled view before walking into the Chamber that night. There is no issue there, absolutely none. If I thought that my raising the issue would have changed the point of view, I would gladly have raised it. It just came down to a determination of what amendment was better, and the House took the decision. <BR /> <BR />I certainly have no issue with the Member raising his concerns.”
“That is simply democracy. It is how we do business in the House. Is it not the best way?”
“Basically, it came down to a judgement call on which amendment, we thought, would best suit the Bill. <BR /> <BR />I had absolutely no problem in coming to the conclusion that I did. The Member knows his history, but, for me, as the sole representative of my party on the Finance Committee, it is good to know that my party trusts me to lead the debates and make a judgement on the Bill. Let me assure the Member of this: I would not do anything that stepped outside my party remit or was outside the discussions that I had with my party. When I talk about my party, I talk about all aspects of it. I have spoken to every member of my party about the Bill. I have sent them emails and kept them up to date. What the Member fails to realise is that, when you go through the stages, you come across new amendments and new ways of doing things.”
“On the point that he makes, if I recall correctly, although I do not have any notes, there were two ways out of that dilemma, and it was a dilemma for the House: how could we function if Ministers were tied down in respect of every function of their Department and every responsibility that they had? We all grappled with that over two of the Bill's stages, as did its sponsor when it was raised. It was one of the issues that Claire Sugden raised. There was an understanding that there was an issue and that there was a nervousness around how we dealt with it. It was no road-to-Damascus change; we had teased it out over a long time and in many debates, even in corridors outside the Chamber. On the night, there were two ways of doing it: the Minister's way or an amendment from the Bill's sponsor.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. I welcome all interventions, of course. I hear what he says about pearls of wisdom, and, in the 10 years that I have sat in the Chamber, I have tried my best to give out pearls of wisdom. I am not sure whether I have yet succeeded, but I will do my best for the Member.”
“I have also taken a decision on each and every line in each and every clause, and I came to a conclusion on whether I could support —.”
“It may not mean a lot to some Members — it is quite a small and concise Bill that deals with one aspect or another — but, for Ann Travers, I am sure that it is a massive thing. Of course it is a massive thing. When the Bill sponsor brings it forward with people like that in mind, I have no problem in supporting him — no problem whatsoever — because we all know the story of that lady and her family, and the sacrifices that they have had to make over the years because of terrorism on our streets. Unfortunately, that is what we are dealing with. <BR /> <BR />Every time legislation comes before the House on reform, transparency and accountability, we have to look at it in that guise and context. That is what I have done with this Bill. I have tried to be fair with everybody and to convince people of the merits of the amendments that I tabled.”
“Permanent secretaries are mentioned elsewhere in the Bill, so it is important that they and the staff below them in Departments undertake their roles and responsibilities professionally and diligently. That takes strength when you look at a Minister or a politically appointed spad, but they need to step up and ensure that, instead of sending text messages to one another as permanent secretaries, finance officials or duty-bound accountees in each Department, they not only talk among themselves but shine a transparent light on the dealings and goings-on in this place of political parties, Members and employees — namely, spads. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the Bill. I also welcome the fact that, for some in the community, it will mean a lot.”
“That cannot be said lightly. <BR /> <BR />We have power in our Departments, not sovereign power, but the jurisdiction that we share this island with has sovereign power. There are parties in the House that could argue that they are on the crux of sovereign power. That is the democratic process, but it also brings echoes of 1930s' Germany. Therefore, we have to be careful and to make sure that we are diligent, transparent and accountable. The Bill will assist with that. <BR /> <BR />Now, we need more, and I look forward to seeing what the Executive bring out on the reform and functions of government, the reform of Departments and how they work together and the reform of the Civil Service and ensuring its strength to make sure that people are held to account for the duties that the Bill places on them. Remember what I have just read out:”