Emma Pengelly
South Belfast · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“This week, I will travel to France to pay my respects to all those who fought and the many who fell at the Battle of the Somme as we mark its 110th anniversary. <BR /> <BR />From across Northern Ireland, generations have served their country.”
“One of the men who fought was James Sandford, my great-grandfather. He fought, he survived, he went on to fight again, and he was seriously injured in another battle. I am deeply proud of him, and I am proud of all those who stepped forward with such honour in the face of the horror of that war.”
“When I stand there this week, looking at the gravestones of so many who made the ultimate sacrifice to defend our freedom, I will also remember — we must always remember — the responsibility that we carry forward. Remembrance is not only about honouring the past; it is about shaping the future.”
“Last night, people in north Belfast witnessed horrific scenes that have absolutely sickened and appalled people across Northern Ireland. It was a shocking and barbaric act of violence that has left a victim fighting the consequences of a truly savage attack.”
“Every person has the right to walk their streets, live in their community and feel safe in their own neighbourhood. This type of brutality has no place in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />This morning, I spoke with the Chief Constable and the Justice Minister.”
“<BR /> <BR />I have also been in contact with the Prime Minister, because the PSNI has confirmed that the 30-year-old male who has been arrested is believed to be of Somalian heritage.”
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“I thank the Member for her attempt to clarify, but her words will be clearly on the Hansard record. She repeated what was said in the Committee. Our role is to challenge some of that. There are reasons for policing operations. Of course, there are reasons for the way in which police have to operate in difficult circumstances. I want to recognise the incredible role that the PSNI played in difficult circumstances and, as Mr Brett said, what they do, day and daily, to keep the people of Northern Ireland safe. <BR /> <BR />In 2023, the hate crime legislation and access to justice working group was established. It engages with representatives of the Department of Justice hate crime delivery group, the hate crime advocacy service, Victim Support and the PSNI.”
“Of course, it is right that the PSNI is scrutinised, but it is also absolutely right to put on record in the House our thanks to the brave men and women of the PSNI who faced a mob of people, which was going in multiple directions without any overall direction, and tried to help and support people in that context.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. Absolutely. It is important to put on record our thanks to the PSNI. Throughout that period when there was a huge amount of disorder, particularly in south Belfast, the First Minister and I were in regular contact with the Chief Constable and the PSNI to show our support, but also to ensure that the PSNI had the resources that it required. The PSNI makes absolutely clear that it does not have the resources that it needs. However, in the circumstance where it was fighting an unpredictable crowd on multiple fronts, it did everything that it could.”
“We will want to mainstream that, and we can build on that. The review of Together: Building a United Community is under way, and that provides an exciting opportunity to take into account all the learning and make sure that those projects are absolutely inclusive. That is one of the good ways of tackling at a very early age some of the attitudes that set in and lead to problems later.”
“I know that many of you in the Chamber will have worked with them. Particularly when I represented South Belfast, it was my privilege to work with many of those organisations and to see the incredible work that they do on the ground. Of course, many other community organisations are also working. I was really pleased to see in the assessment of our Together: Building a United Community good relations schemes, such as T:BUC camps and other projects and initiatives, a really good level of participation from those from ethnic minority communities in Northern Ireland.”
“I recognise absolutely that we can deliver that type of change only by working in partnership with all of those organisations. We will use those views to help to develop our future strategic approach to racial equality and to inform how we prevent such events from taking place again. <BR /> <BR />As the current racial equality strategy acknowledges, we are under no illusion about the size of the challenge involved. It will take time, effort and resources, but it recognises that every one of us has a role to play in combating racism and racial inequalities. We cannot do it alone, and full implementation will require the support and active participation of all sections of our community. <BR /> <BR />I also acknowledge the incredible work of organisations, including those representing ethnic minority communities.”
“Therefore, I emphasise today our keenness to hear from people throughout Northern Ireland about their views of the previous strategy and what they want to see in the new one. I have no doubt that the Committee will want to participate in that important work as well. We want to hear from the key stakeholders in the minority ethnic sector and wider society, particularly on, as has been referenced in the debate, what they believe to be the root causes of racism and rate hate. <BR /> <BR />I also emphasise that, in some of that work, we will also look internationally at where there have been issues and what has worked in tackling those, not just from a government and departmental agenda and that of our agencies and local government but from within the community with schools, families and community organisations.”
“I have heard calls for a racial equality strategy: we are looking at that strategy and preparing for the next strategy beyond 2025. Much of that strategy has been fully implemented, and the aspects that have not been implemented are for a continuous application of the particular actions in it. <BR /> <BR />Of course, we are looking at how that strategy was effective, what worked in it and what did not work as well. We will bring that all forward into the new strategy. We hope to launch a call for views before the end of 2024 to support the development of the new strategic approach to racial equality, and, as referenced yesterday in a different debate, in all of these policies and in reviewing and revising all of our strategies, it is critical that we listen to those who will be most impacted by them.”
“In that context, much of the learning from the summer's events has been built into the ongoing work that the Department is leading on in conjunction with other Departments and agencies, specifically the race hate cross-departmental working group, which met recently, on 6 November, to consider strategically how to apply learning and avoid a reoccurrence. One of our key priorities is to build a society in which racial equality and diversity is supported, valued and respected. <BR /> <BR />I have heard reference to this before — I do not know why — but I have clarified in the House a number of times that we have a racial equality strategy. That racial equality strategy is for 2015 to 2025, and it is still in place.”
“That is the message that the Executive are sending, the message that the First Minister and I have repeated throughout the summer and the autumn and the message that I firmly stand by today. <BR />Of course, much of what happened in the summer we have looked at, discussed and taken forward. A number of reviews are ongoing, but, of course, we will take away today's motion and endeavour to look at what we are doing to see whether we can do things differently, whether we need to bring that together in a different way or whether we need to increase the pace of what we are doing. <BR /> <BR />I want to highlight a number of the key issues that the Department is working on.”
“Of course, this place cannot fix these problems, but we can certainly do what we can to address them, working with communities and addressing those prejudicial social attitudes that lead to the type of racism that, very sadly and disappointingly, we saw on the streets. <BR /> <BR />It is also important to put it on record that this was a small minority of people. The message that we must send to those from ethnic minority communities throughout Northern Ireland should be a united one. It should be a positive one today, which is that we are absolutely all united against racism and prejudice and that we are all united in wanting every person in Northern Ireland to be able to play their part and to do so in a context without hate, prejudice or discrimination.”
“It is in stark contrast to the values of equality and respect that we strive to uphold. We have all seen the devastating impact of those crimes on victims and their families and communities, and our thoughts are still with all of those affected. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the debate and all the thoughtful contributions. Indeed, we will take those away in the work that we are doing. I take the opportunity this afternoon to outline some of the work that we have been carrying forward, particularly from the summer but, of course, the work that has been taking place in the Department. We believe that that important work will address many of the elements.”
“If you had actually listened to the people on the ground, you would have seen that tensions are bubbling and frustrations are high. There is that deep frustration because of a lack of affordable housing and the inability of people to live in the communities in which they grew up and that they love because of a lack of affordable housing and access to public services. I have also said very clearly that that is a challenge for all of us in the Chamber to address. That is a problem and those are issues for democracy to address. However, if democracy does not deliver, we will see people becoming increasingly frustrated. That is on us. That is why we must step up. I have said that time and again. <BR /> <BR />The Executive have no tolerance for the racial discrimination and violence witnessed in July and August of this year.”
“I will not take an intervention. I am on the record as stating many times my absolute rejection of any racism, prejudice, hate, violence or disorder on that basis. The Member's comments are utterly disgraceful. <BR /> <BR />I say clearly to this place that no one will put words in my mouth, despite the attempts by many people over the last number of months. What I said is that, in this role as deputy First Minister and as a representative, my message to people is clear: I am on your side. I am here to listen to you, to the challenges that you face and the hardships that you experience. I have said in the House that I recognise that, for many people throughout Northern Ireland — indeed, too many people — their lives are too tough.”
“I appreciate the opportunity to speak once again about the criminal damage and racist violence that took place in our community over the summer months. I assure you that addressing the needs of all in our community is a particularly important matter to us, and that must include everyone, no matter what the colour of your skin, your race, your religion, your faith or lack thereof or your identity. <BR /> <BR />It is appropriate at this juncture to take real exception to the comments just made. Absolutely disgraceful comments have just been made. At every opportunity, the members of the Executive have stood shoulder to shoulder and made it absolutely clear that there is never any justification for racism, hate, violence, disorder or prejudice on that basis. I am on the record —.”
“That is a really important aspect that MLAs across the House can get involved in helping to publicise. It will be about research, looking at the evidence, identifying what more work needs to be done and, importantly, listening to the voices of victims and survivors.”
“It is incredibly important that we hear from those victims and survivors because — for the very reasons that the Member mentioned — they will raise things that we are not aware of or, perhaps, that the layout of it does not take into account this time, but that will need to be taken into account as we move forward with additional support and help.”
“I thank the Member for her question. That is an important aspect, because the approach to doing the research first was very much based on the reality that, although some anecdotal and other evidence has come forward on what has happened, there is little insight into the scale or depth of the problem. The research is designed to flag up relevant issues to be considered. I suspect that that issue will be looked at. <BR /> <BR />One important element of that is the call for victims and survivors to come forward. We are likely to go public with that call at the end of November.”
“The fact that that relief has been reduced in such a way indicates that the Chancellor believes that a tax will be raised by that change, and, if tax will be raised by that change, it will be raised on the backs of our farmers. Farmers need support. They are not a cash cow from which to raise tax or anything else. They do an incredible job and require support, not additional burdens. I believe that the Northern Ireland Executive can have a united voice and tell the Chancellor strongly, "Protect our farmers". We will fight for farmers. We are on their side on the issue. We are asking the Chancellor to change course urgently.”
“I thank the Member for his follow-up question. Absolutely: there are things that people can do. Some of that relates to planning. I know that some farms and farm businesses have already done that, but, of course, there is more that we can do to support that through, in particular, the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs. I was glad to see that some organisations were already advertising some of those activities. <BR /> <BR />However, let us be very clear: if, indeed, the consequences and impacts for farmers of those changes to agricultural relief could be negated or mitigated in full, there would be no point to the Chancellor's putting them in place.”
“I encourage all others with concerns to do likewise in order to show our strong opposition to those changes. Farming is at the heart of the economy in Northern Ireland. It is incredibly important. Local farmers provide quality, nutritious, locally grown, supported and produced food. We are a net supplier of food across the UK. That is to be valued and protected. We should stand up for our farmers. I am determined to do that as we move forward, including on that important issue.”
“I thank the Member for his important and timely question. At the moment, many farmers and farming families throughout Northern Ireland are particularly concerned about those proposed changes by the Chancellor. I had taken the opportunity to raise directly with the Chancellor and the Prime Minister concerns about the rumoured changes, particularly in relation to agricultural relief, prior to the Budget. However, that was not listened to, and now those changes have been put in place in announcements on the Budget. <BR /> <BR />We will continue to fight that fight. I am pleased to say that I will attend the rally that has been organised by the Ulster Farmers' Union on Monday 18 November 2024, at the Royal Ulster Agricultural Society site at the Maze/Long Kesh.”
“I understand that the Communities Minister had a very successful trip over there on that very issue. I look forward to building on that and to sharing our experiences.”
“Absolutely. A key part of the international relations work that we do is on what is often referred to as soft diplomacy or cultural diplomacy, which is very much about reaching out in that way and explaining the links of shared culture and history. Many people in the US do not realise that they have that Ulster-Scots or Scots-Irish heritage, heritage from the UK and, of course, from Ireland. A very rich vein of that heritage runs right through the US. We have not just a responsibility to try to promote that heritage but a really good opportunity to use our shared history of those bonds, not the least through trade. Many Ulster Scots who went to the US invested heavily in trade and business, helping to build America. There are lots of opportunities.”
“I look forward to engaging with the president-elect and the incoming Administration for the further benefit of Northern Ireland.”
“Northern Ireland has been a huge beneficiary of foreign direct investment from the US in particular. That is why significant time has been taken to work in the US over recent years to try to build further on that very successful FDI. Our relationship with the United States goes much further than trade: we have bonds through our history and heritage. I believe that, compared with any other jurisdiction, Northern Ireland has the most links to US presidents per head of population. <BR /> <BR />We should build not just on those trade links but on improving opportunities with the US based on our heritage and those links. For example, I am very conscious that the incoming vice president has Ulster-Scots links, or Scots-Irish links, as those from the US refer to them.”
“All Ministers must comply with the ministerial code that is currently in place.”
“To be fair, the required changes to the ministerial code pertain to particular aspects of the Executive Committee (Functions) Act that are to do with, for example, clarification of the types of matters that come to the Northern Ireland Executive for consideration and agreement. That need arose out of confusion, perhaps, or lack of clarity in some of the subsequent legal cases. It is a technical point. There is a point around the Executive's treatment of planning applications and their consideration of planning matters. Those are technical matters that require a change to be made to the ministerial code. As far as I am aware, there have been no proposals to change the obligations that all Ministers have under the key principles set out in the code, including those of transparency and openness. Those existing principles endure.”
“I reassure the Member that any aspects of the ministerial code that conflict with, for example, the Executive Committee (Functions) Act, will not create any issue or problem with the Northern Ireland Executive or their functions.”
“I thank the Member for his question. As I understand it, some work has been done on that. The recent legal case, however, made it clear that the ministerial code has to be read subject to decisions under the legislation, such as for example, the Executive Committee (Functions) Act (Northern Ireland) 2020. Therefore, anything that we do, regardless of what the ministerial code says, has to be done in relation to the primary legislation. That does not mean that it is acceptable, as a matter of good legislating, for that to be the permanent position. Work is progressing on the code, and I have no doubt that it will be brought forward in due course.”
“That is why officials in the Executive Office have been working closely throughout the period with Belfast City Council and other councils on practical and financial support. <BR /> <BR />We have a dedicated ethnic minority funding scheme under our race relations strategy: that has been protected and we will be moving forward with that. We are looking at issues around multi-year budgets and better support under that scheme. I have indicated to the Member is that that needs to be mainstreamed within our good relations schemes, such as central good relations and our T:BUC camps and others. That is a really good opportunity to ensure that those key principles about respect and tolerance of difference and different identities start at the earliest possible opportunity when it comes to prevention.”
“I thank the Member for his follow-up question. There was a lot more that I could have said in my initial answer, but I am very conscious of the time and the length of response available to me. Of course, we are also working on those issues. We are bringing forward race relations legislation as well as, importantly, the refugee integration strategy that has been promised. I can reassure the House that that work is ongoing and that we are endeavouring to bring it forward as soon as possible. <BR /> <BR />The Member is absolutely right that this is not just about words. However, words and leadership matter, and what we say and do on this issue, through the media and in this place, as we stand together against racism, is important. He is absolutely right when he says that that needs to be followed up by action.”
“It is incredibly important that we work in a connected and collaborative way to tackle the scourge of racism and the violence and disorder that is brought about by that. <BR /> <BR />In addition, we have been looking at many of the Department's funding schemes. For example, I asked for and we have received the figures on the very significant participation rates in the good relations schemes by minority ethnic communities. Of course, good relations is not just about those with different political or religious beliefs but people of different races and ethnic identities. It would be really positive to ensure that those groups are all fully mainstreamed within our funding schemes, and we encourage other Departments to do so as well.”
“I thank the Member for his important question, because it provides the opportunity, once again, to put on record our absolute rejection of racism and of any actions based on hate, discrimination or prejudice. What we saw over the summer was entirely unacceptable, and that is the message that we have been sending. <BR /> <BR />There are a number of different aspects to what we have been doing. First, we want to show joint and shared political leadership, not just in the First Minister and the deputy First Minister's office but across the Executive, to call out those terrible actions at every opportunity. Secondly, we have been liaising with statutory agencies through our arm's-length bodies and our funders but also, importantly, with the PSNI. We raised the issue once again when we met the Chief Constable just last week.”
“The research is an important step in deciding the best way forward to address the impact and legacy of that abuse. We look forward to the conclusion of the research projects next spring and, subsequently, to seeing the final report and recommendations. As with all these things, it will be a trauma-informed response. We will, of course, move forward conscious of the pain and trauma that many victims and survivors of clerical abuse are still going through.”
“We recognise how important the issue of clerical child abuse is. We are aware of the devastating impact that it has had on many people. The junior Ministers met victims and survivors in September through the reference group to, at first hand, hear about their experiences and restate our commitment to this important work. <BR /> <BR />Work is progressing on the three separate pieces of research that we have commissioned: one examining records held by faith organisations and statutory agencies; one recording the experiences and expectations of victims and survivors; and one examining the safeguarding policies and practices of faith groups. We intend to call shortly for victims and survivors to come forward to participate in that research.”
“That is set out in detail in that legislation.”
“I thank the Member for his question. I suspect that if you went to any body and asked whether their funding is enough, it would indicate that it is not. What we do within the remit of the statutory responsibilities for each body has to fit within the overall financial position of the Executive and the Department and what is possible and achievable. <BR /> <BR />The amount of money, as set out, has come out of a detailed business case, but it is predicated on a core staff complement and start-up costs. It is for a small staffing complement for each of the offices. Any proposals on any additional spending — for example, on activity, projects or grant funding — would not sit with the commissioners' offices. Grant funding would sit in the central office of identity and cultural expression, as opposed to with the particular commissioners.”
“<BR /> <BR />Like with anything, you would want to move towards a multi-year approach as regards their plans, but I anticipate that we will have some early indication about the activity. The Member will appreciate that that will not be done tomorrow or next month and will take some time. As that develops, the spending profile will be set out. It is likely to be not in this financial year but in the years to come.”
“The preparation plans for the commissioners' offices will give a sense of when it is likely that that expenditure will be required. Of course, as a principle of good public expenditure, you would not try to take that funding into a year in which it would not be accrued or spent. The commissioners are yet to be appointed. As outlined, the appointments process is likely to take at least six months, so that would bring us into the next financial year in any event. However, even in that situation, the commissioners' offices would need to be established, staff would need to be recruited, and systems would need to be put in place. You would then be looking to the plans and proposals put forward by those commissioners. I fully expect that they will require resource to support them to do all that, and time to put their initial plans in place.”
“I thank the Member for her question. These are statutory roles, so, of course, they have statutory responsibilities, which are set down in the legislation. I imagine that the commissioners will engage with the North/South bodies and across the UK in advancing the Irish language as a recognised minority language of the United Kingdom, and as regards the Ulster-British tradition’s strong links and the Ulster-Scots tradition’s links with Scotland, for example. Of course, there are links between Anglo-Irish traditions and different British traditions right across this United Kingdom. I imagine that they will engage, but one assumes that that will be set out in their first business plans and corporate plans.”
“I thank the Member for his important question, because, at its heart, the important message is that the process will be brought forward on a fair and equitable basis. That is why I welcome the fact that the business case has been prepared, advanced and agreed on the basis of the two offices initially having a fair and equitable amount of funding. When the commissioners are in place, they will bring forward their business plans and corporate plans and details of their proposed activities. Again, in recognition of the numbers of people from those traditions throughout Northern Ireland, those need to be advanced on a fair and equitable basis, because that is right and proper. Public funding should always be distributed in that fair way.”
“That will depend on the interest in the appointments: some get more interest than others, which can complicate things. It will then be a requirement for the decisions on those who are deemed to be appointable to each post after the process to go back to the First Minister and deputy First Minister for consideration and agreement. On the odd occasion, no one crosses the line and is deemed appointable after a public appointments process, but we hope that that will not be the case for these appointments. <BR /> <BR />As I have outlined, this is a lengthy process, but having the documentation up — hopefully, in the next couple of weeks — will enable the competition and the six-month public appointments process to commence.”
“I thank the Member for his follow-up question. As I indicated in my answer to the substantive question, a lot of detail and process go into making sure that such public appointments abide by the guidance and rules of the Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments and that they are fair and open in the appropriate way. Of course, that process needs to take place. The First Minister and I will receive the final proposal on the criteria for the appointments, the adverts and, as I mentioned, the documentation and the booklets. We will take a look at those, and, if we are satisfied that they meet the requirements, the competition can go out and be placed. <BR /> <BR />The appointment process generally take around six months.”
“We also remind Members that the competitions will be run in line with Commissioner for Public Appointments' guidelines.”
“The appointment of the commissioners and the members of the Office of Identity and Cultural Expression is essential to implementing the provisions of the Identity and Language (Northern Ireland) Act 2022 for which the Executive Office is responsible. As previously advised, we have instructed our officials to develop further advice that will include documentation for each competition, including candidate information booklets and details of selection panels, to enable the competitions to be launched. To finalise that advice, a competition initiation meeting (CIM) needs to be conducted for each competition. We are pleased to advise that the selection panels have been formed and that the preparations for the CIMs are at an advanced stage. We hope to hold a CIM for each of the competitions in the coming weeks.”
“With your permission, Mr Speaker, I will ask the junior Minister to take this question.”
“I thank the Member for her question. She will be aware that the work of the redress board is winding down. However, the pain, the trauma and the issues will continue for many years beyond the closure of the scheme and will, indeed, impact those who were involved for the rest of their lives, so there are needs. We are doing a number of things through, for example, the support mechanisms of the Victims and Survivors Service, which, along with Advice NI and other organisations, has taken on the new role of trying to support victims of historical institutional abuse. It is important that, as we move towards the scheme's closure, we look at a range of supports. We will take a look at your proposal. What we want is a system and a service that meet the needs of victims, no matter what they look like. We will actively consider that.”
“Therefore, it is right and proper that they step up and make financial contributions to the scheme, not least because it sends a clear message of acknowledgement of their role and failings.”
“I thank the Member for her question. That is a legal issue that we have examined. Indeed, it may be appropriate to have further engagement with the Committee on it. There are a number of legal aspects that make it complicated, not least the nature of the report. The report did not examine every institution, and therefore the findings in the report differ from, for example, the findings of a court in a civil or criminal case. Of course, the redress scheme extends beyond that. There are some challenges in doing it. However, we have made it very clear that we believe that there is a strong moral responsibility on those institutions to step up. They have contributed to an apology for their actions and acknowledged that things were done that ought not to have been done.”