Emma Pengelly
South Belfast · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“This week, I will travel to France to pay my respects to all those who fought and the many who fell at the Battle of the Somme as we mark its 110th anniversary. <BR /> <BR />From across Northern Ireland, generations have served their country.”
“One of the men who fought was James Sandford, my great-grandfather. He fought, he survived, he went on to fight again, and he was seriously injured in another battle. I am deeply proud of him, and I am proud of all those who stepped forward with such honour in the face of the horror of that war.”
“When I stand there this week, looking at the gravestones of so many who made the ultimate sacrifice to defend our freedom, I will also remember — we must always remember — the responsibility that we carry forward. Remembrance is not only about honouring the past; it is about shaping the future.”
“Last night, people in north Belfast witnessed horrific scenes that have absolutely sickened and appalled people across Northern Ireland. It was a shocking and barbaric act of violence that has left a victim fighting the consequences of a truly savage attack.”
“Every person has the right to walk their streets, live in their community and feel safe in their own neighbourhood. This type of brutality has no place in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />This morning, I spoke with the Chief Constable and the Justice Minister.”
“<BR /> <BR />I have also been in contact with the Prime Minister, because the PSNI has confirmed that the 30-year-old male who has been arrested is believed to be of Somalian heritage.”
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“I thank the Member for his question. There will be a twin-track approach to the schemes, with the process for standardised payments to roll out at the same time as the substantive inquiry. That may be an unusual approach, but it is very much based on our experience of the Historical Institutional Abuse Inquiry. In that case, the inquiry came first, and a huge amount of valuable work was done during it, but it took years, and we are conscious that the victims and survivors have needs right now. That made its way into considerations of the issue and the recommendation, which was accepted, that a standardised payment should be rolled out at the same time as the inquiry, with a second stage — an individualised payment — after completion of the inquiry process.”
“I will answer that question. Yes, we aim for social security benefits to be disregarded, in common with other payments in the redress schemes that the Department has rolled out. We are confident that that will be done. It has been discussed a number of times, and, indeed, the consultation will touch on it. We are confident that those benefits will be disregarded for the purpose of payments.”
“The demand on the support mechanisms will increase as we go through the consultation, and we must meet that need.”
“I thank the Member for his question. A key aspect of the work has been to recognise that, for many of those who have been most impacted, going through the process can be a very traumatising and retraumatising experience. I have no doubt that there will be many difficult times ahead for many of those victims and survivors as well. It was really important that, from the outset, a process was in place to offer help and support. I am pleased to say that we have been working through the likes of the Victims and Survivors Service, and over 300 victims and survivors have reached out for help and support. We anticipate that, as the process rolls forward and there are, for example, advertisements to encourage people to come forward, more people, other than the 300 whom I mentioned, will make themselves known.”
“In this context, in which there are cross-border elements, it is important that the Irish Government also consider that issue.”
“I thank the Member for his question and pay tribute to him for his private Member's Bill. The feedback on that legislation has been hugely positive. It is facilitating very valuable work. The First Minister and I should certainly raise that legislation with the Republic of Ireland Government as a good example of what needs to be done. Access to personal information will be critical not only to the families and those impacted who want to get a better understanding of what happened but to the inquiry. It will feed through to the redress payments. It may not necessarily feed through to the standardised payment, although it might, but it will feed through to individually assessed payments in particular. It is good legislation, and other jurisdictions should certainly take account of it.”
“I thank the Member for her question. There will be bespoke legislation on this, albeit it will be similar to the powers provided for in the Inquiries Act 2005. There were elements of this that required bespoke legislation, and that is exactly what we are consulting on. There are 40 pages of consultation that goes through each of those clauses in detail. On many of the issues, no doubt, there will be consensus, but there are key questions on which we will seek the views of the public but, absolutely and in particular, the views of victims and survivors and those most impacted.”
“The Committees have an important role in all those things, as does the House. <BR /> <BR />I thank Members for their contributions to the debate. It has been very useful, and important issues have been raised. I urge people to consider this, however: let us get the right legislation, prioritising quality over quantity and consideration and scrutiny over speed. That is what the people of Northern Ireland demand of us and that is what will deliver for people throughout Northern Ireland.”
“Unfortunately, I have only a minute and a half left. <BR /> <BR />I want to add to that point by saying that it is incredibly important that we are fully aware of the impact of what we are doing on all the issues. I come back, again, to the point about quantity in relation to legislation. When we speak to people on the doors, as all of us will be doing over the next number of weeks, the key issue that we hear about, time and again, is that people want their public services to work for them, such as access to GP services and affordable childcare, in health and education respectively, and all those types of issues. We are also conscious, however, that legislation is not always the answer to the problem. Sometimes the answer will be transformation, restructuring and getting the right policies in place.”
“There is an important point on candour, not just relevant to our health sector but across all our policy areas and all our legislation: we need to be open and frank on what works and what does not work. If something is not working, let us get it changed; let us work together to try to address it. That is the only way that we will improve things.”
“<BR /> <BR />Some Members referenced using the summer period for consultation. We acknowledge that using the summer period for consultation on legislation or policy is not ideal, but it allows people a little bit of extra time. We would have to consult into the autumn, as well, to ensure that there is adequate consultation time. <BR /> <BR />The policy area of a duty of candour was mentioned by a number of Members, and I add my support to that. I was not here for questions to the Health Minister yesterday, but there was a reference to "the black box" then. There is an excellent book called 'Black Box Thinking' that deals with that very particular point. It talks about why so much goes wrong, such as medical negligence and other issues, and focuses on the specific issue of candour.”
“As indicated yesterday, we are in the same position as Scotland and Wales. All three jurisdictions were in an advanced position with their programmes for government, and all three, having taken guidance about the election period, will not be publishing them. That is right and proper. I would love to say that the Programme for Government is so good that to publish it would give an electoral advantage to the First Minister and I, but, of course, that is what the guidance is there to caution against. I have no doubt that there will be a variety of views on the Programme for Government. Of course, we will publish it for consultation, because we want to hear those views and improve it. We are very mindful of our responsibilities during the election period, but we are determined to get it published as soon as possible following that.”
“Unfortunately, I have only 10 minutes, and I have a lot of contributions to touch on, I am afraid. I want to be fair to as many people as possible <BR /> <BR />Like a number of Members, Deborah Erskine mentioned her policy brief in relation to her chairing of the Infrastructure Committee, which is very welcome. I touch again on the point that, if the Northern Ireland Assembly and Executive are to deliver and have the determination to deliver, we will only do so by working hand in hand with the Committees, relying on them to call the relevant witnesses to really scrutinise the legislation to ensure that we are doing the right thing. I welcome the contributions from Deborah and other members of the Committees. <BR /> <BR />Steve Aiken mentioned the Programme for Government.”
“In the Northern Ireland Assembly, Committees have a very particular role, which is different from that of Committees elsewhere: it is not just to scrutinise but to aid and support Ministers on policy development. That presents an incredible opportunity for Committees. I would like to see all of us commit to ensuring that we do not value quantity or speed over quality and getting things right. We absolutely have to scrutinise —.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. Of course, an important point on the legislative programme, as was touched on by the Chair of the Committee for the Executive Office, is that this programme represents what Ministers have put forward but is very much in the context that the content of the legislation still needs to be agreed. It will need to be scrutinised by the Executive Committee and then by the Assembly Committees. The actual policies in those Bills are not yet agreed. Some of them we have a greater understanding of than others, but that will have to come forward. You are absolutely right that, on this issue, it is important that we get it right. That is the point that I was making around the role of the Assembly and of its Committees.”
“I urge Members to take caution because, when we look back over the past 17 years since restoration in 2007, we see that a number of the significant challenges and problems that we have faced have been to do with legislation or policy that ought to have been better and ought to have been scrutinised, with problems identified at an earlier stage. We have had to spend considerable time trying to address those problems.”
“It is a very good indication and sign of our inclusive agenda to ensure that everybody is able to participate and access the public services that they require. <BR /> <BR />It is critical to recognise the role of this place on legislation. It must be about the identification of need. In a personal capacity, I am a small government politician. I do not support legislation for legislation's sake. It is a significant mistake for people to look at this Assembly and judge it on, as Paul Frew said, the quantity and not the quality.”
“If we try to prioritise everything, nothing will be done. That is what we are working on in the Programme for Government and within the Executive Office. I can assure him that this is just the start of our ambition, and we are deeply ambitious for this place. We have a shared determination to build a better and brighter place, and that must include addressing the problems, growing our economy and, of course, the important work of the transformation of our public services. <BR /> <BR />The Chair of the Committee for the Executive Office, Paula Bradshaw, is not in her place. I welcome her endorsement of the programme. She raised a number of key aspects. She welcomed, as others, including Carál Ní Chuilín, did, the sign language Bill. I welcome that deeply.”
“There are six months left, including the summer period. Of course, we have to be realistic. It is a primary duty of elected Members and, indeed, Ministers in this Government to ensure that we are honest with the public about what is realistic in what we can do. He accused us of being all hat and no cattle. I do like a hat, but, having attended some fantastic country shows over the past number of weeks, I like my cattle as well. On the serious point, the First Minister and I have discussed this issue in some detail. We find it incredibly important for us to get out there to support communities and to support events, but we recognise that absolutely key to this Administration will be delivery. It will be the cattle, and that is what we are working hard on. Of course, it is also key that what we focus on is deliverable.”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. I thank Members for their contributions. This has been a wide-ranging debate that has touched on many of the key issues that the House has already discussed through a number of motions and debates. All those issues are, of course, important. <BR /> <BR />Passing legislation is the primary function of the Assembly. That is why we were determined to make our written statement and to move the motion, which sets out the Executive's immediate programme of primary legislation work. It was encouraging to hear from so many Members, and I want to touch on a number of points that were made in the debate. <BR /> <BR />The leader of the Opposition, Matthew O'Toole, described the programme as "thin gruel". I assure the Member that — he mentioned it in his remarks — this is the programme for the remainder of 2024.”
“It is important to say that whatever is published as the Programme for Government will not be the final version. It will be published for consultation. We are acutely aware of wanting to hear from people about their views on the issues. We want to get that out for consultation as soon as possible. Absolutely, that process should be commenced with a debate in the Assembly if at all possible — I believe that it will be — but the key thing will be to get out on the ground throughout every part and place of Northern Ireland to ensure that the maximum number of people respond to the consultation and that we are informed on the way forward.”
“It is something that, last week, I took the opportunity to mention to the First Ministers of Scotland and Wales. They are in a similar position with their programmes for government in that they have reasonably well-developed programmes but will have to pause publication of them until after the election period. That gives us an opportunity however, as work will go on in the coming weeks, to continue to look at the issues.”
“As indicated, the election being called has an impact on the guidance on when we can publish and commence our consultation.”
“As I said, we will continue to strive to get a diary date. If we can have a date in the diary earlier rather than later, I will be happy to do that. I know that there is a keenness to have that meeting as soon as possible, but, if we cannot do it before that date, we will try to do so on that day.”
“There is no doubt that there are people who were impacted and injured. Those people still endure a huge amount of pain and a significant impact on their lives. I am pleased to say that the First Minister and I have jointly agreed to meet the vaccine-injured. I say this genuinely: we are striving to do that as soon as we can. We are working to ensure that a meeting can be put into the diary as soon as possible. We know that there is a keenness to meet. As I said earlier, nothing beats speaking to people directly about their experiences. That is why we have been keen to do so. That is what we do for much of our week, so, absolutely, we will do that.”
“Absolutely. I am passionate about that. We know that many young girls fall out of playing sport at a relatively young age, whereas boys and men often continue to play team sports, in particular, throughout their teenage years but also into their twenties and beyond. We need to support more of that, to ensure that our young girls continue to participate in sport not just at the elite level but at every level. Of course, it is fantastic to see our young athletes competing at the elite level as well. As I said, we know that additional support is required for those who are exceptional in order to allow them to shine, and we need to look at that.”
“Absolutely. It was fantastic, and it was good to see the really positive reception to it. So many of our young athletes from Northern Ireland are shining on the international stage. That drives us to say that we must do even more to support them, not least with their training but on their journey right through. They are fantastic ambassadors for sport, for young people and, indeed, for Northern Ireland.”
“The Executive Office led the way on co-production and co-design in a number of our processes, not least the first Together: Building a United Community consultation. We adopted a very detailed stakeholder co-production approach for that. It was, I think, the first time that any Department had done such a thing. Of course, it has evolved and improved since then, and I am glad to see it being mainstreamed. <BR /> <BR />The Member is absolutely right that the racial equality strategy must be effective. To be effective, it must be co-designed and must work; otherwise, what is the point of doing it? We want it to be effective. We want it to work and to support everybody whom it needs to support.”
“I am sure that everyone in the House will agree that there is no space whatever for hate crimes based on any characteristic, including race. We must all stand united against such things. People must be able to live their lives free from harassment and hate, no matter where they are in Northern Ireland.”
“As I indicated earlier, we are focused on the review of T:BUC at the moment. There have been hugely positive indications of the impact of T:BUC. Of course, it is largely focused on good relations between people throughout Northern Ireland. Of course, the work of the FICT commission is relevant to that. Where there are challenges, it is often, as I indicated, because of some of the elements of our disputed and contested history. It is a good opportunity for us to fully take that into account and see whether we can find a way forward.”
“As I indicated in my answer to a previous question, we had a good debate in the Assembly on that issue. A huge amount of important and useful work has been done by the commission. There is an opportune time for the evaluation and review, for example, of Together: Building a United Community to ensure that that learning and some of the recommendations are fully taken into account in that process.”
“It would be wrong to say "focus", because we know that our economy is made up of many different elements. Of course, some aspects will be impacted by dual market access, particularly the export and manufacturing of goods. We are largely a small to medium-sized business economy. Many of those businesses are indigenous and trade only within Northern Ireland. We must show support for those businesses. They are the backbone of our economy, and we want to support them. Likewise, foreign direct investment is so important and essential. The biggest growth in that area has been in the services industry, which is not impacted by dual market access. It is important that we move forward in parallel with a range of those key aspects of our economy. It is only by doing so that we will grow the economy and ensure that we achieve the prosperity agenda.”
“Yes. It is certainly a positive indication, but we know how difficult it is. We can welcome that good news, and the First Minister and I, since taking up our roles, have said many times that we want to prioritise the prosperity agenda. We need our economy to grow, and we need to do whatever we can, as joint leaders of the Executive but also working with our Ministers, to ensure that we have the right interventions and context to allow our economy to grow. It would be wrong for me not to recognise that the inflationary rises and other cost rises are difficult for small to medium-sized businesses, which are battling through a challenging situation. Again, I want to send the message that we are here to support those businesses, listen to them and try to ensure that we grow our economy.”
“We must make sure that young families and people in Northern Ireland can get on to the housing ladder and get a home. We need to take action on the issue now. It is, unfortunately, a product of the difficult Budget position, but I am acutely aware of the pressures. We will continue to seek that additional resource to ensure that we can build what we need to build.”
“The Member's question highlights once again how difficult our Budget is. The Budget for this year was divided up, with approximately 50% for the Department of Health, 30% for the Department of Education and 10% for the Department of Justice. That left just 10% to be divided among the other Departments, including the Department for Communities, which takes the lead on housing. <BR /> <BR />Housing is an issue of significant concern. To some extent, we are behind some other jurisdictions on tackling the housing crisis. The Member will know from speaking to those at the event this morning — we all know from speaking to people throughout Northern Ireland and in our constituencies — that the housing crisis is already putting pressure on families. We need more social and affordable housing.”
“That plays an important part and will be fully integrated into our Programme for Government.”
“Absolutely. The Member will be aware that we have pushed forward with an outcomes-focused Programme for Government. Its purpose is to see the bigger picture when it comes to our objectives of having public services that deliver for people, of ensuring that what we do grows our economy and of providing a brighter, better future for everyone in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />How do we do that? We must do it through the actions that we take as an Executive and in Departments. As I said earlier, we also need to ensure that what we do works, and we will know that it works only if we measure interventions. There will absolutely be a framework of indicators. Those indicators will be baselined and measured throughout the lifetime of the Programme for Government to inform us moving forward.”
“We are prepared to step up and do transformation, but we also need a Budget from the UK Government that will enable us to do that in order to deliver core public services that will impact positively on everyone throughout Northern Ireland.”
“The Member will be aware that we have been pressing the UK Government on a range of issues pertaining to the Budget. The Northern Ireland Budget is incredibly difficult. We know its impact, not least on our health system and on waiting lists, and the associated pressures that it causes. We also know the pressures on our education system. This is not a single-issue issue but an issue to do with core public services that people need, such as health, education, roads and investment. Organisations are crying out for funding, and I have certainly not been behind the door in making strong representations to the UK Government.”
“The Member will be aware of how difficult the current fiscal situation and the Budget are for Northern Ireland. It is therefore a matter for the UK Government in ongoing discussions, and I know that a number of Ministers and others have been making representations to that end.”
“The Executive Office post remains vacant, however. The next step is that the TEO permanent secretary role will be filled on an interim basis through an internal temporary promotion opportunity.”
“The head of the Civil Service launched an external recruitment exercise to fill vacancies in two permanent secretary roles in December 2023. The competition produced two successful candidates. One of the successful candidates, Mr Ian Snowden, was appointed to the Department for the Economy post on 28 March 2024.”
“It is important that all those issues are considered. Of course, in the roll-out of any public services, we have a shared objective and seek the same outcome, which is to ensure that those public services work for those who need them when they need them. We listen all the time to those who are trying to use services across education, health and our public services, so we know that those public services are under pressure. The avoidance of duplication is important, as is finding the right interventions of transformation to ensure that we can do more with the budget that we have, continue to build on the positive work that is being done in our public sector and improve our public services, including those within the health sector.”
“We have made the transformation of public services a key priority for the Executive. Many sectors need investment and reform in order to ensure equitable access to the high-quality services that our citizens expect and make the public finances sustainable. The Executive have agreed an approach proposed by the Finance Minister for making quick progress on the use of £235 million of ring-fenced funding that is available for transformation. The Finance Minister has established an interim public-sector transformation board that will make recommendations in relation to projects that could be supported by that funding.”
“Guidance has been published and is available online for everybody to take a look at. Of course, the devolved legislatures are not particularly impacted on by the period of purdah, but there are implications for Ministers in relation to announcements and their approach. It is a matter for each Minister, in accordance with that guidance. It is clear, however, that we need to be careful about some of the issues and how we approach them.”
“The Executive Committee will continue to meet during the pre-election period. The business of Departments will also continue as normal, subject only to any changes that are considered to be necessary to adhere to the pre-election guidance. Decisions on specific activities or items of business are a matter for each Minister.”
“Yes, absolutely. For some considerable time, the Department has ensured that we evaluate projects, and for good reason: if we do not measure the impact of these programmes and projects, we do not know what impact they are having. Initially, we set baselines around attitudes and other indicators at individual project level and programme level. That is important. If a project is not working, it should not be funded to continue. If a project in a particular area or context does work, we need to know that so that we can roll it out elsewhere. Fundamentally, we are about finding the things that work and changing the outcomes and objectives of those types of projects for the better.”
“The commission's report is a substantive one. It contains significant analysis that was based on an extensive consultation process with stakeholders from throughout the community. While the recommendations were not all fully agreed by the commission, as a piece of work, the report is hugely valuable. That should inform the work of Together: Building a United Community and some of the actions that come out of it, but you are absolutely right that it is also a useful piece of work for informing Communities in Transition, because we know that some of the difficult issues that communities still face are those that have an implication from the legacy of the past and have connections to some of the paramilitarism of the past. I absolutely believe that it will be an important piece of work for evaluating and reviewing the way forward.”
“I thank the Member for his question. Absolutely. Northern Ireland Alternatives does fantastic work in the local community and has done so for some considerable time. In this role, I have had the opportunity to go along and see some of its important work and its celebration events. Undoubtedly, over many years, NI Alternatives has impacted on thousands and thousands of lives across the community, particularly in North Belfast but also beyond. It is a delivery partner for the Executive Office that we are very proud to have and on which we have relied for many years to deliver these programmes in such an effective way across communities, really changing lives for the better.”
“The programme continues to be rolled out in this phase. Throughout this phase, we will evaluate those projects to ensure that we are pulling forward the best practice. The programme has had a significant positive impact across the communities where those projects have been rolled out. It is important to try to mainstream as much of that as possible and to try to ensure the continuation of some of that support. We have seen a significant number of participants in those areas, which has been very positive. I think that we are seeing increases in community resilience. We are seeing a very significant reduction in paramilitary-style attacks. That is all very positive, and we need to build on it moving forward.”