Emma Pengelly
South Belfast · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“This week, I will travel to France to pay my respects to all those who fought and the many who fell at the Battle of the Somme as we mark its 110th anniversary. <BR /> <BR />From across Northern Ireland, generations have served their country.”
“One of the men who fought was James Sandford, my great-grandfather. He fought, he survived, he went on to fight again, and he was seriously injured in another battle. I am deeply proud of him, and I am proud of all those who stepped forward with such honour in the face of the horror of that war.”
“When I stand there this week, looking at the gravestones of so many who made the ultimate sacrifice to defend our freedom, I will also remember — we must always remember — the responsibility that we carry forward. Remembrance is not only about honouring the past; it is about shaping the future.”
“Last night, people in north Belfast witnessed horrific scenes that have absolutely sickened and appalled people across Northern Ireland. It was a shocking and barbaric act of violence that has left a victim fighting the consequences of a truly savage attack.”
“Every person has the right to walk their streets, live in their community and feel safe in their own neighbourhood. This type of brutality has no place in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />This morning, I spoke with the Chief Constable and the Justice Minister.”
“<BR /> <BR />I have also been in contact with the Prime Minister, because the PSNI has confirmed that the 30-year-old male who has been arrested is believed to be of Somalian heritage.”
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“In addition to that — the Minister referenced this in his statement — will he confirm clearly that this represents his thinking on the direction of rates reform and that he intends to bring all these proposals and any revised proposals following consultation back to the Executive for their agreement and decision?”
“I welcome the statement, although I echo the words of our fellow South Belfast MLA that some of it will create concern in the constituency, particularly around the domestic cap. We look forward to consulting on that and hearing the views. <BR /> <BR />As the Minister will be aware, the Committee is examining business rates and taking evidence on that. We will be out and about and intend to visit Portadown and Warrenpoint to see the situation on the ground. Will the Minister commit to coming before the Committee, specifically on the issue of rates, during the consultation to outline his thinking in more detail?”
“We have heard some conversation around the Chamber about the court case. Does the Member agree with me that the court case recognised the "plethora" — I think that that is a direct quote — of anti-poverty initiatives and actions taken by the Executive in the last mandate under the last Programme for Government to tackle poverty, not just income poverty but educational, health and other associated poverty? The court case recognised that, and the case was lost simply on the dictionary definition of strategy, not on the basis of the definition of objective need. It recognised the valuable work that the Executive had already carried out.”
“In conclusion, I hope that the Minister considers the issues that I have raised about objective need and that Members across the House start to see objective need on a much wider basis than simply spatial need, which was part of the issue in the court case.”
“<BR /> <BR />What it is not is arbitrarily drawing a line under those areas in the top 10% for spatial poverty evidenced by the multiple deprivation areas and excluding all those above the line. A postcode lottery criterion does not work, save in circumstances in which spatial poverty is proven to compound the negative outcomes or in which a necessary cluster of initiative clientele requires geographical targeting.”
“Universal services are targeted at families and at family and individual needs and on the basis of spatial deprivation, based on NISRA's multiple deprivation spatial indexes. The exact methodology deployed depends on what the objective or outcome is. It is right that the health service target the urgency of the need of the individual: that is objective need. It is right that all children who have an educational need get education universally free at the point of delivery: that is educational need and it is objective need. It is right that those in poverty and unemployment get access to the same benefits in the same circumstances right across Northern Ireland: that is objective need. It is the objective need of the individual.”
“In my view, the challenge to the then OFMDFM at the time under section 28E of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 was based on CAJ's misunderstanding of the concept of objective need. It is very important for us to consider that. <BR /> <BR />In fact, CAJ had a concern that Delivering Social Change funds widened the criteria from simply 10% on spatial deprivation. I had been very critical of the approach of using spatial deprivation as the only criterion for determining objective need, and I want to turn very briefly to that point. There is an obligation on government to distribute funds and services on the basis of need. We all accept that. Of course, that need should be objective. However, there has traditionally been an ignorance or misunderstanding of what it means. <BR /> <BR />Government distributes services in a number of ways.”
“I will just have to speak very quickly. I am absolutely and genuinely passionate about helping people break free from poverty. It is something that I have had a genuine interest in for some considerable years, but not just as an issue. I have worked at it and tried to bring about a change in the way in which government does policy in order to bring about the positive changes that we want to see. <BR /> <BR />The issue is this: why do we want to tackle poverty? We want to tackle poverty because it has bad outcomes for people in health and education and has negative impacts on the happiness and healthiness of their lifespan. I have only three minutes, so I will touch very briefly on a number of points raised in the debate. First, I want to speak briefly about the court case that was taken by CAJ.”
“Will the deputy First Minister confirm that the structures and processes of the social investment fund were cleared, went through and satisfied the full business case process, were cleared by the accounting officer of the Department, were cleared independently of the Department by the Department of Finance and Personnel and were periodically reviewed throughout the process and policy development by the public-sector exemplar, the gateway review process?”
“I thank the Minister and welcome progress on this matter. Will the Minister clarify, in the context that organised crime here is often allegedly linked to paramilitary organisations, that the action plan under the Fresh Start commitment to tackle paramilitarism and organised crime is undergoing a process of co-design and consultation as recommended by the panel report and will she confirm that no plan has been rejected or money refused by Her Majesty's Government in relation to that?”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. On comments that were just made in the House, will the Minister confirm — especially in the context of there being no hierarchy of victims — that there is no profile that has been, or had been, agreed over the last number of years on the financial arrangements between inquests and the HIU? That needs to be worked out very much on the basis that everything is moving forward together.”
“There have been attempts by Treasury to clarify and guarantee. What further actions are you taking to satisfy the Department and the Executive that the guarantees are there to ensure that those projects can go ahead?”
“I am sure that the Minister will accept that EU funding guarantees are an issue not just here but across the United Kingdom when it comes to protecting infrastructure projects and ensuring that that pipeline continues. I am concerned by what the Minister said about that —”
“I know that it will also be welcomed by the many thousands of volunteers who help out at those amateur sports clubs and donate their time to the local community for the benefit of it. In relation to the rules being considered today, I am pleased to say that the Committee for Finance and I support the motion.”
“We have had some discussions already with the Department and the Minister in that regard. I know that all members of the Committee have a determination to do what we can to listen to the concerns of businesses in relation to business rates and make sensible recommendations on a system that is fair and equitable and which encourages business growth. The Committee will look forward to considering the wider review of the non-domestic rating system, which the Minister is considering at this time. <BR /> <BR />Today is a good news day for amateur sports clubs. I know that they will welcome this much-needed relief. Many amateur sports clubs are very small, so it can be very difficult in terms of fundraising.”
“In response, the departmental official highlighted that the proposal under the rule was to strike a balance. He highlighted that, as clarified during the Department's consultation, the policy would align with the treatment of community halls and that any further reduction under article 31 would be conditional on a community amateur sports club not being a licensed premises and on it being registered within the meaning of section 658(6) of the Corporation Tax Act. Members welcomed that clarification and were content on that basis. Following consideration of the policy proposals and the statutory rule, the Committee recommended, at its meeting on 28 September, that, subject to the report by the Examiner of Statutory Rules, the rule be affirmed by the Assembly. <BR /> <BR />The rating system here in Northern Ireland requires reform.”
“I am glad that the Minister has continued the work of the previous DUP Finance Ministers in examining and bringing forward this very welcome relief for amateur sports clubs. <BR /> <BR />At its meeting on 14 September, the Committee considered the policy proposals and questioned the departmental official on certain aspects of the proposed rule. One of the issues of interest was the occasional licence. Members were particularly concerned to make sure that the purpose of the relief, which is to help amateur sports clubs, would not have the indirect or unintended consequence of supporting what were, effectively, commercial hospitality businesses. We were satisfied, after listening to the official's evidence, that that would not be the case.”
“I will speak first in my role as Chairperson of the Finance Committee. At the end, I will make some remarks, although they are not particularly controversial, in my role as a DUP member of that Committee. <BR /> <BR />The purpose of the statutory rule is to enable the Department to provide that the current relief may, in cases prescribed in the regulations, be increased from 80% to 100% of normal rates under article 31. As outlined, the changes are as a result of the Rates (Amendment) Act, which received Royal Assent shortly before the end of the last mandate. If I recall correctly — those who were Members in the last mandate will also recall this — there was some controversy around the private Member's Bill and some concern that the measures would not be taken forward.”
“The Minister has outlined that this statutory rule is being made under powers conferred by the Rates (Northern Ireland) Order 1977.”
“I thank the Minister for that answer. Has she or her Department carried out any comparative analysis on the demand here or the potential benefit to Northern Ireland compared with the rest of the United Kingdom?”
“I note that in the statement there is in and around £100 million unallocated for public-sector transformation. I am sure that the Member agrees with me that significant reform and change is urgently needed in the system if we are to ensure affordability while protecting front-line services. We have heard that outlined already this morning in terms of Health. <BR /> <BR />Will the Minister inform the House what actions or special measures he has taken to ensure that good projects and initiatives are coming from Departments that will best meet the need for public-sector transformation across the system?”
“I welcome the news. I also welcome the consideration that the Minister has given to the matter so far. Following his discussions with the Education Minister, can the Minister outline the numbers of school-age children from across the community in Northern Ireland who could avail themselves of this important opportunity?”
“Since 2013, the UK Government have facilitated school-age children in England, Scotland and Wales to visit the battlefields of World War I, providing an important learning opportunity around the devastation of war and the cost of peace, freedom and democracy and the bravery of so many. Sadly, it was not rolled out in Northern Ireland by the previous Education and CAL Ministers.”
“Will he confirm that, alongside the development of the social strategy, he will commit to consulting them much more widely on a whole range of departmental policy responsibilities?”
“The Minister will be aware of the valuable work, even in my constituency of South Belfast, being done with older people and young people and in supporting food banks, as has already been mentioned. Many of the Churches and the faith community have, perhaps, been excluded for too long from input into consultations and the development of social strategies.”
“That is not what people want, and that is why people are not voting for it. They are voting for those parties that say, "We are going to work at this, and we are going to deliver better outcomes for the people of Northern Ireland".”
“It would be useful for us to have some basic understanding of the Executive powers, the Assembly powers and the prerogative powers, which is one of the oldest traditions in the great British constitution, yet, apparently, it is as if some people in the House just woke up and discovered that it existed. I think that Claire admitted that she was not aware of the background to the issue, but it seemed as though, to Mike Nesbitt and others, this power that has been around for many decades suddenly appeared from nowhere. Members need to understand that there is a division. <BR /> <BR />In conclusion, I want to emphasise that, while there should be scrutiny, all Members should be respectful. I honestly think that the debate this morning and earlier this afternoon was a disgrace, given the lack of respect, scoffing and sneering.”
“Thank you, Speaker. The Member does not live in a bubble, and he did not live in a bubble when there were serious issues happening in the Assembly and the Executive. Everybody was aware of those issues, and there was a commitment to try to get through them. The circumstance that he has spoken about was placed in that context at that time. The Member should welcome that the parties in Government have said very clearly, "We want to improve mechanisms. We want to work together constructively. We are listening to people who want constructive and positive politics, and that is what we are going to deliver". <BR /> <BR />I have heard some strange contributions in the Chamber today about who has the greatest control and who is answerable to whom.”
“<BR /> <BR />A point was raised earlier about Assembly powers and scrutiny. Scrutiny is necessary and right, but we have a range of scrutiny mechanisms in the Assembly, the Executive and Northern Ireland; Ministers are scrutinised by Departments, and the Assembly has a role. However, it is set down in our constitution and in the mechanisms and structures of this body that the Assembly has certain duties and that the Executive have certain duties. There is a separation of powers, and that is fundamental in constitutions.”
“Trying to scoff and engage in faux laughter at points made by people in the House, as demonstrated this morning, or rising repeatedly during speeches to make interventions designed to be destructive, is not what politics should be about. It should be about respect, and there is lots to reflect on from the debate this morning. <BR /> <BR />Today's motion should be a bit of a wake-up call. People need to realise that, if you opt out of being in the Executive, you are not in the Executive: you will not have the same influence on Government policy, and you will not get the same access to information as the Ministers who have to formulate that policy. That is a real issue. There needs to be a wake-up call for people in the House that things have changed. They have changed for a reason: parties have opted out of being in the Executive.”
“Thank you for the opportunity to speak in the debate. It is a little sad that some of the Members who were here this morning are not present in the Chamber to hear my contribution. It is sad and disappointing because of the tone and attitude of the debate. The scoffing and sneering of those on the Benches opposite — the Opposition, the second opposition and the "I can't believe it's not the opposition" — this morning was a sad reflection on politics in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />We are committed to positive politics. I spoke to many thousands of people, and they want us to deal constructively with real issues, such as the one that we just spoke about, namely breast cancer, as well as other issues related to health, education and affordable childcare. Those are the issues that matter to people.”
“got a suspended sentence and an animal ban. Just two weeks ago, that family, despite the ban, was caught with animals, which re-emphasises the need for a register. Will the Minister commit to meeting me on the issue, which has progressed through the private Member's Bill that I intend to bring forward?”
“The Minister will be aware of the Kirkwood family, whom my colleague referenced, in my constituency of South Belfast, who, despite carrying out what the judiciary called:”
“Members may laugh, but there are procedures there. The Member has made some comments about the First Minister, Arlene Foster. The First Minister spoke to the Chair and Deputy Chair of the Enterprise, Trade and Investment Committee about this matter. She made it clear, publicly and to the House, that she considered that she had no conflict of interest. She outlined that to the Committee, a Committee with the role of scrutinising that Minister.”
“Does the Member accept that there are a number of different accountability mechanisms set up under the Assembly? One of those is the Committees, and they legitimately scrutinise Ministers.”
“We need to find a workable solution that does not push people into an equal and opposite reaction that may worsen the situation. All of us should work together to find that.”
“I was actually involved in it when I was in the student union movement — I know my colleague Christopher was as well — in trying to work with the university about this. One thing is clear: there is no easy solution to these things. You cannot simply go in and say, "Do you know what? Clear the road. Sort out this problem. Do this. Do that". We need to work with communities to find a workable solution, and this is no different. That is my concern. It raises concern, too — I see Alex Attwood sitting there — many times during negotiations on these issues.”
“It is to be welcomed for this reason: we will find a solution to these issues only with local agreement and consensus. It touches on issues of community confidence, the social capital of communities and people feeling respected. When people hear that their traditions like bonfires, flag-flying or parades — people on either side or all sides of the diversity of our culture — are not accepted, are not tolerated and are bigoted or sectarian, they react against that. The reality of it is that we cannot sit up here and push and corral people into a particular position. We need to work with people on this, and we need to find workable solutions. <BR /> <BR />I think all of you have been involved in the issues down in the Holylands over the last number of years.”
“It is a little unfair: you had 15 minutes initially and are eating into a lot of the very limited time I have. I agree with you about cultural dominance, and I think it is a case of diversity, but there are communities that want what they see as their cultural identity to dominate their space. They want to celebrate that, and generally it happens over July and August. I praise the considerable work that happens at a community level. We have seen not just in South Belfast but across Northern Ireland over the last number of years community leaders working with communities on the management of this: when flags go up, what flags go up and when flags come down. We are still, on a week-by-week basis, reaching local agreements about that, and that is to be welcomed.”
“Just to respond to the Member's point, I worked closely with the life and times survey in my tenure before I even came into this post. It is a smaller sample survey. There are issues with who participates in it, but it is clear that there are people who do not like flag-flying. That is, again, part and parcel of the tolerance we should show people. If people do not want to display a flag, do not display one. Likewise, just because you do not have an affinity with a particular cultural tradition, that should not mean it should be snuffed out and stamped out in the spirit of neutrality. It is important to emphasise that, if we want to celebrate diversity, we have to celebrate it in all its forms.”
“I will just finish the point. We should not just tolerate that. We hear a lot about tolerance, but sometimes we do not even get that tolerance. We should celebrate the richness of our cultural diversity. We should not say there should be neutrality for that and then put other cultural traditions and identities right into the public space — into Botanic Gardens and into the town and city centres. We need to celebrate right across the piece.”
“This is a cultural identity that means something to a significant number of people in South Belfast and across Northern Ireland". We should not only tolerate that —”
“Those are great celebrations of the richness of the diversity of Northern Ireland society in 2016. That is to be celebrated. What must not happen is that we celebrate certain cultural traditions and yet, on the other side of that, say that indigenous displays of culture — other people's cultural identities — should be packed away and we should be ashamed of them. We have heard about neutral spaces, yet I have seen Claire, who made that comment, at events in South Belfast — I think that I have seen all of us, in fact —where we have had Tibetan prayer flags or emblems and symbols of the Chinese or Indian community. We are all very comfortable about celebrating that. We need to get into a more mature space where we can step back and say, "Do you know what?”
“If people put up the flag of our country or a flag that they feel something about, they leave it there and it gets tattered, that is a shame. I feel shameful when I see that, and I know that communities feel shameful when they see a flag that they feel something about tattered and flying from a lamp post. It is not always the case that local communities can go in and take down that flag themselves. I say to those who put up the flags that mean so much to many people and allow them to get into that state that they should remove them. That is absolutely the case, and, again, the DUP has been clear about that. <BR /> <BR />What I would say to Claire is that, coming from South Belfast — I know that most people in the Chamber at this stage are South Belfast representatives — we go to events like the Mela and go down to Culture Night.”
“At the very heart of that strategy is not the neutrality picture that Claire Hanna has put across but the celebration of our identity and rich diversity. Flag-flying is part and parcel of that. <BR /> <BR />I echo the words of my colleague Christopher Stalford: I do not agree with the flying of paramilitary flags. The DUP has been very clear, time and time again, that we do not agree with the flying of paramilitary flags. I will also correct what the Member said about the illegality of flag-flying. We have looked at this, and it is not always clear and is not always the case that the public flying of flags, even from lamp posts, falls into illegality. The Member should also be well aware of that. I also share some of the thoughts that were expressed about tattered flags.”
“I would prefer to stand here and talk about issues like affordable childcare, sustainable and good jobs for people etc, but we are standing here under the rather cryptic, I have to say, title "Irregular Flying of Flags in South Belfast". <BR /> <BR />I am not particularly annoyed by displays of identity such as flags on either side. That also translates into who I am as a person because I am not particularly annoyed by the celebration of identity right across the diversity of our society, should it be something that I feel part of or not. It is at the very heart of a tolerant and open society that we celebrate and accept cultural difference. I took part in the policy development of the Northern Ireland Executive's good relations strategy, Together: Building a United Community.”
“Thank you for the opportunity to speak in the debate. In one way, it is a slightly strange one for me. I am standing in the Northern Ireland Assembly talking about flags. If you go out there and speak to people on the ground, you realise that there is a perception that that is, in fact, all that we do: we talk about flags and the orange and green. I have told people who say that — they are often people who do not take a lot to do with politics — that I do not talk about flags day in, day out. I came here to be an MLA at the end of September last year — almost a year ago, and this is the first time, I believe, either in the Assembly or in Committee, that I am having a discussion on flags. Perhaps, it is a bit ironic that it is an Adjournment topic from Claire Hanna of the SDLP that brings us to talking about flags once again.”
“I thank the Minister for his answers so far. In relation to an earlier answer he gave on Peace funds, can the Minister confirm that there is a very particular problem and challenge at the moment with the Republic of Ireland Government on stepping up to the mark? Does he agree with me, as I am sure he does, that this hesitancy by the Republic of Ireland Government could cost Northern Ireland a significant amount of money? What plans does he have to ensure they step up to the mark to make sure this money will come through in a timely way?”
“I wholeheartedly support the campaign to keep the pressure on the United Kingdom Government to look again at the issue. It is a small cohort of women, but the impact is profound. <BR /> <BR />The recent statement by the Pensions Minister at Westminster that there would be no change to the Government's position was disappointing. The arrangements for these 1950s women, who have been treated very badly, are a mess and have not been appropriately implemented. The matter needs to be looked at again — urgently, given the poverty and stress that these women in their sixties experience. Unfortunately, it is difficult for the House to make an impact in any specific way, but he campaign should continue and has my full support. These women have given a huge amount to families and to the community and are the very backbone of our society.”
“They have made it clear that it is not an issue about equality but fairness: had these women known in time, they could have planned for their retirement and put a little aside that would have made things much easier for them. They now find themselves in very difficult financial situations and in financial stress. Many are suffering from poverty and are struggling to get by. <BR /> <BR />DUP MPs have been at the forefront of campaigning on the issue at Westminster. It is a UK-wide issue — I think that we are all aware of that — and it has been a product of the Westminster process, particularly the legislation that was passed in 1995.”