Emma Pengelly
South Belfast · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“This week, I will travel to France to pay my respects to all those who fought and the many who fell at the Battle of the Somme as we mark its 110th anniversary. <BR /> <BR />From across Northern Ireland, generations have served their country.”
“One of the men who fought was James Sandford, my great-grandfather. He fought, he survived, he went on to fight again, and he was seriously injured in another battle. I am deeply proud of him, and I am proud of all those who stepped forward with such honour in the face of the horror of that war.”
“When I stand there this week, looking at the gravestones of so many who made the ultimate sacrifice to defend our freedom, I will also remember — we must always remember — the responsibility that we carry forward. Remembrance is not only about honouring the past; it is about shaping the future.”
“Last night, people in north Belfast witnessed horrific scenes that have absolutely sickened and appalled people across Northern Ireland. It was a shocking and barbaric act of violence that has left a victim fighting the consequences of a truly savage attack.”
“Every person has the right to walk their streets, live in their community and feel safe in their own neighbourhood. This type of brutality has no place in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />This morning, I spoke with the Chief Constable and the Justice Minister.”
“<BR /> <BR />I have also been in contact with the Prime Minister, because the PSNI has confirmed that the 30-year-old male who has been arrested is believed to be of Somalian heritage.”
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“Yes, of course. We meet officials regularly, and we will do so this week to discuss further the scoping out of a potential way forward. We met on 23 September 2025 to discuss the three research reports. We also met the independent chair on 10 November 2025, and it was a very useful meeting with lots of detail and lots of questions about that important piece of work. We also discussed the issue with the Chief Constable in a meeting in early December 2025. I can assure the Member that there is constant discussion about it. Indeed, the First Minister and I discussed it again just this morning. We are very conscious that there is an expectation and desire out there, and we want to find a way through that best gives victims and survivors the opportunity for truth and justice.”
“That is why we have not published to date, but we are making sure that the issue of publication is part of our consideration.”
“The reports are significant and lengthy, and they contain a range of observations rather than conclusions, at times. However, they are all very useful in our consideration of the way forward. We decided some time back to commission the research reports because there was a lot that was not known about the issues. The reports definitely give us a better understanding of the complexity of the framework and context. I do not have any particular principled objection to the publication of the reports. However, I advise the Member that they were commissioned not necessarily for publication but to inform the process. We are actively considering that at the moment, because I know that people want to see what is in the reports.”
“First, we acknowledge the significant and long-term impact that clerical child abuse has had on victims and survivors and express our sincere sympathy with all those who have been impacted on. We have been carefully considering the research reports. As the Member will appreciate, it is an important, complex and sensitive issue. We are working with officials to explore a number of possible ways forward. That includes support for victims and survivors, improvements to current safeguarding mechanisms and any further action.”
“I thank the Member for his question. We always strive to ensure that there is as full a complement as possible. We are conscious that there are vacancies on a number of boards at the moment. We have been going through a process to try to fill those vacancies. A number of proposals have been made in this case, and those are under consideration.”
“I have said it before and will say it again: in my role, I feel that it is my responsibility to do absolutely nothing that would cause further hurt to people. It is in that context that we are exploring some of the options around the matter.”
“We have had a briefing from our officials around some early preparatory work. The Member will understand fully that it is a hugely sensitive area that needs to be led by victims and survivors. There will certainly not be a one-size-fits-all approach. I have had the great privilege of working with victims and survivors' groups for many years over the past two decades. I have sat with victims and survivors and seen their tears, and I have heard very clearly how much hurt they still suffer now. Whatever we do needs to be incredibly sensitive to that. There is no doubt that the issue of the definition of "a victim" has been significant in this space over the past 20 to 30 years. We will be working with victims and survivors.”
“The victims and survivors strategy contains a commitment to work with victims and survivors, and wider society, to develop a designated public space of reflection where people can come together to remember our past. Work in this space is complex and sensitive. Currently, the focus of the strategy is on preparations for the new victim support programme. Final allocations for the programme are expected to be made at the end of March. The delivery of the programme is expected to contribute to a range of commitments in the strategy.”
“Mr Speaker, with your permission, junior Minister Bunting will answer the question.”
“It is not about the delivery unit's coming up with an idea, implementing it over the head of another Minister and gaining glory; it is about working collaboratively. One of the big challenges that we have in government is achieving genuine cross-departmental, cross-agency collaborative working. It has been a frustration for much too long. The unit will work across government, and, at the moment, it is focusing on two things: first, supporting the Health Department when it comes to health waiting lists, which is a multifaceted issue, particularly regarding the transformation project; and, secondly, overseeing the transformation and the range of transformation projects.”
“As I outlined, the delivery unit works with officials in other Departments. At the moment, it is focused on the nine key priorities in the Programme for Government. However, it is about learning from best practice regarding delivery units. I believe that the Member was involved in London when the delivery unit there was quite successfully rolled out. We have taken the learning from that. It is absolutely key that a delivery unit is not given too many things to look at. It should not be given a top-heavy structure. It is designed to work within the system and for the system, with direct accountability to the First Minister and me. That is the way in which we have set up the delivery unit.”
“You can feed that in, and we will get our delivery unit to look at that. We need those good ideas and game changers. We must improve public services, which must mean doing things differently and getting better outcomes for the people whom we serve.”
“The delivery unit is a new concept for the Northern Ireland Executive and Departments, but it is not a new concept. It is a concept that has been rolled out successfully in many other jurisdictions. Before we set it up, we had conversations at a high level to make sure that whatever structure we put in place was based on the delivery units that have been most effective. <BR /> <BR />It is a challenge for all of us: it is a challenge for every Committee and every Member. If you see a good idea, experience a policy or change or see something being implemented elsewhere that seems to be producing good results, we want to hear about it.”
“<BR /> <BR />The public are, of course, frustrated when they cannot get through to their GP; when they have been sitting on a waiting list for many years; or when they see some of those big issues in our public services. We cannot keep doing what we are doing. We need to do things differently, and we need the good ideas to enable us to do that. That is exactly what the delivery unit is designed to do.”
“Again, the delivery unit is designed to work closely with the officials who are taking the lead in the relevant Department. They support them with data analytics, for example, the examination of that data and looking at ideas from elsewhere. We have good people working in our system, but, often, we find that the best people working in the system tend to be the busiest. They have a task, and they are trying to drive that forward. Delivery units are often used because they give a bit of space to look elsewhere and to see some of the ideas that have been implemented in other jurisdictions, which we can magpie and take for possible piloting or implementation in Northern Ireland. We need game changers.”
“The unit is small, but sometimes it can genuinely make a significant difference in turning round big, tricky issues, just as the little tugboat can turn a bigger boat around in the harbour. That is what it is designed to do, and it works. It is an official-level group that works with officials on a number of projects. The health waiting list initiative is led by Health — that is understandable and absolutely right — but our officials are there to work with Health officials to identify research and ideas and feed that back to us, and we respond on that to the Executive. That is the structure.”
“There is a lot of misunderstanding about what the delivery unit is. It is a unit in the Executive Office made up of civil servants. It is a small unit, and it is designed to be small and agile. When we were setting up the unit, we took advice from the experts in delivery units. We spoke to officials in Whitehall about what was happening there, and we spoke to the Welsh First Minister about her delivery unit. We have taken that advice, which is that the units are to be small, agile and answerable directly to the Ministers, who, in this case, are the First Minister and I. The units are also to identify key pieces of work that, they feel, can make the most difference. <BR /> <BR />I often liken the unit to a small tugboat.”
“They include the enhanced triaging of waiting lists; the potential for AI and digital solutions to improve efficiency; and the role of behavioural science in supporting much-needed reform.”
“Supported by a £61 million investment from the transformation fund, the delivery unit has been overseeing the implementation of a transformation project to expand multidisciplinary teams in GP practices. That is a core element of the wider health reforms aimed at strengthening early intervention and prevention, shifting care closer to home and supporting the development of a neighbourhood model of care to take the pressure off our overstretched hospitals. <BR /> <BR />The unit has also had a key role in identifying new transformation opportunities across the public sector with the potential to improve population health and well-being. In addition, it has identified a range of best practice measures to address hospital waiting lists and has explored the implementation of those initiatives with health officials and delivery partners.”
“I once again reiterate that the big social media companies are much too slow to cooperate with the PSNI and other authorities to try to identify some of the perpetrators and get that activity locked down as quickly as possible.”
“Thank you. That is an absolutely essential issue in an emerging and evolving area. I know that, like me, the Member has been a victim of violence online. It really is disgraceful. Some of the recent deepfakes and other issues demonstrate how the issue continues to evolve as technology advances. The issues continue to evolve, frankly, day by day, and we need to be agile enough to address the emerging threats and risks online. <BR /> <BR />I know that Ofcom has been really active in that area. Our junior Ministers met Ofcom specifically on the danger to women and girls online. However, I am conscious that more must be done.”
“We may not see the benefits of it for many years to come, but we know and recognise from looking at all the expertise that that work needs to happen now to prevent violence towards women and girls in five years, 10 years, 20 years and further into the future.”
“Thank you. That is really important. Often, the people who have been most involved in the campaign to get a strategy, ring-fenced funding and a delivery plan are those who have seen the issue at first hand. They are women who have been the victims of such violence and people who have worked with those women and the organisations that have lobbied. However, of course, change needs to happen at a societal level; it must go much beyond those organisations. That is recognised at the heart of the strategy and the delivery plan. That is why we are reaching out to schools and sporting clubs, including those whose members are predominantly boys, and why, as part of our strategy and delivery plan, we have a course of work that looks at men and boys. Prevention and education are critical.”
“All Departments need to get together to address the issue; it does not just sit with the Executive Office. I hope that the second delivery plan will bring the right people around the table to finally get the issue resolved. Women should have a right to refuge when they need it, and they should be able to get to a place of safety as quickly as possible, recognising all the dangers.”
“I thank the Member for his important question. It is critical that not only the strategy but, indeed, the delivery plan are multifaceted and take into account all aspects. We often talk about the fact that prevention is at the heart of the strategy and that that must start at an early stage — that is why we are working with schools, youth organisations and sporting organisations — but you are absolutely right: there is a critical need at the point at which a woman needs to leave the home due to the violence within it. We know from so much research that the most dangerous time for a woman is the period between telling their partner that they are going to leave and actually leaving. The lack of refuge spaces can cause significant delay.”
“In the meantime, work continues at pace, and we hope to bring the new ending violence against women and girls delivery plan to the Executive very shortly.”
“Ending violence against women and girls (EVAWG) is one of the most pressing challenges facing society today. That is why we have invested over £5 million in communities to raise awareness of the issue and the role that we all must play in prevention. We have submitted bids that reflect the level of investment required to continue to deliver the strategic framework and to support the programme's longer-term ambitions. We note the Minister of Finance's draft proposals, which are out for consultation and propose that allocations for ending violence against women and girls will be earmarked. Budget planning for the 2026-27 financial year will, however, depend on the outcome of the Executive's Budget process, which has not yet concluded.”
“With your permission, Mr Speaker, junior Minister Bunting will answer the question.”
“We owe them a debt of gratitude for the resilience that they have shown.”
“For communities to have confidence, they need reassurance — reassurance that they can seek justice for crimes of that nature by way of the proposed Legacy Commission; reassurance that they have not been ignored, dismissed or excluded, as so many have been in the past; and reassurance that we in the Assembly will support them on their journey. We have provided that support through funding for strategies and programmes, but we must also call those things out and show absolute and universal support for truth. It is entirely appropriate that the Assembly call on the UK Government to ensure that. <BR /> <BR />I acknowledge the courage of all the victims and survivors who have carried their experiences over the decades, often in silence. Their persistence is the reason that we are debating the issue today.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Executive Office recognises the gravity of sexual offences, particularly where they were committed in conflict-affected and coercive environments; the right of all victims to have their case considered in any legacy investigative system; and the need for the Troubles Bill to reflect the full spectrum of harms experienced during the conflict, not only those that resulted in death or visible physical injury. When the Troubles Bill was announced, the Secretary of State indicated that he hoped that the communities that were most affected by the conflict of the Troubles would see the Bill as a way forward in which they could have confidence.”
“That delay does not diminish the harm that they suffered; it makes it more imperative that the systems of today do not repeat the omissions of the past. <BR /> <BR />For all the reasons that I have outlined, it is critical that the UK Government ensure that any proposed legacy legislation does not narrow or restrict recognition of, or support or pathways for, victims. They must ensure that offences of sexual violence, including child abuse, are not excluded from, nor their importance downgraded in, proposed legacy architecture. They must ensure that nothing is included in the proposals that could deny victims meaningful access to justice. Victims must not be ignored, and they must never be forgotten.”
“We have heard different aspects feeding out from the motion, all of which deserve to be thoroughly examined. The motion rightly calls attention to one of the most overlooked aspects of the legacy of the Troubles. Although death and serious physical injury are well-recognised criteria in existing legacy structures, sexual offences, rape, sexual assault and child sexual abuse have historically been marginalised in the formal legacy processes. That is not because such crimes were rare but because they were hidden — hidden out of fear and shame, and hidden by coercion, community control, paramilitary dominance and a wider culture of silence. As Members know, victims of sexual violence often wait decades before being able to speak.”
“Communities in Transition addresses child sexual exploitation and child criminal exploitation through our area-based addressing exploitation projects. It is sad that such support is still needed, but we recognise that it is. <BR /> <BR />I hope that, taken together, those three strategies demonstrate a little bit of the work of the Executive Office through many strands. The legacy of sexual violence is seldom confined to the past. It continues to shape lives in the present. Recent research commissioned by the Executive Office reinforced the fact that abuse has left a devastating imprint on many people here. As I said, victims deserve truth, acknowledgement and pathways to justice. <BR /> <BR />I thank all Members for their contributions.”
“As more information about abuse comes out, it will be important that we make sure that the help and support are there as well. <BR /> <BR />We know that violence against women and girls cuts across all generations, all communities and all spheres in our society. It happens every day, everywhere, and impacts on how women and girls learn, live, work and socialise. The focus of the ending violence against women and girls strategic framework is on prevention, and we will continue to engage with partners on how to tackle the damaging attitudes and beliefs that can lead to that violence, abuse and harm. <BR /> <BR />The Communities in Transition programme plays an important role in strengthening community resilience and safety in areas where paramilitary influence has historically inhibited the reporting of sexual abuse and access to support.”
“<BR /> <BR />In the strategy for victims and survivors, Ministers have committed to building a trauma-informed, victim-centred system of support that recognises the lifelong impact of sexual violence and the trans-generational nature of trauma. The strategy emphasises the needs of victims and survivors, including those affected by sexual abuse. That must drive our policy direction. The supporting services that the strategy offers are critical in addressing that trauma. A key element of the strategy's delivery is the victim support programme. Last year, nearly £8 million of funding was provided to improve the health and well-being of victims and survivors. The issue needs to be better integrated within our comprehensive needs assessment.”
“<BR /> <BR />Sexual crime is one of the worst violations of human dignity. Serious sexual offences strike at the heart of a victim's sense of self. They cause deep trauma. People from all backgrounds and of all ages, classes and ethnicities are impacted on by sexual crime; it happens across all cultures. We want to stamp it out, and we need to support victims. <BR /> <BR />We are reminded of the impact of such issues in the work of the many strategies that we are driving forward. Supporting victims and survivors has been a central element of the Executive Office's work over many years. That support is currently provided through three key work streams: the strategy for victims and survivors, the strategy to end violence against women and girls and our work in Communities in Transition.”
“<BR /> <BR />We need to focus on the motion, because it is on an issue of profound importance. As I said, everyone who has been a victim of sexual crime should report it. Every victim of sexual crime deserved and deserves full investigation. They deserve the perpetrator to be brought to justice. That is very much at the heart of our ending violence against women and girls strategy. It is not just about prevention but about supporting people to get justice. I welcome the fact that the Chief Constable and the PSNI are close partners with us in the Executive strategy of ending violence against women and girls. The PSNI is there because the Executive recognise and endorse the fact that the PSNI plays a critical role in supporting victims and helping them to get justice.”
“All people who were abused need that abuse to be recognised, but, frankly, I fear that we are starting to go down a line of deflection and distraction. Given what was known at the time, what has subsequently come to light and what needs to be investigated, it was absolutely right that the Executive stepped up and did the historical institutional abuse inquiry. Kincora was looked at as part of that inquiry, and I advise the Member to read the report. With the greatest respect, trying in some way to justify issues that have come to light subsequently for a lack of reporting at that time within certain communities, given the pressure that was put on women not to report to the then RUC, is revisionism. It is not acceptable, and there has been consensus across this place about that.”
“I will, but I want to make some progress.”
“I welcome the fact that Doug Beattie, in his opening remarks, said that all victims of sexual abuse should come forward to the PSNI for full investigation. Let me be clear: all perpetrators of abuse should absolutely face justice.”
“Worse, those who perpetrated those crimes, which included child sexual abuse, were able to repeat the offences because they were not brought to justice and incarcerated for them.”
“I thank the Member for her contribution. All sexual abuse is wrong, and I will go into a bit more detail about what the Executive and the Department are doing. Let us call out clearly, however, that any sexual abuse is absolutely wrong. It is incredibly important that we deal with the range of issues that are referred to in the motion and call out the truth. There may not be a shared view across the Office on some of those matters, but, with the greatest respect, I can be very clear that, if we look back, we can see that that was not why the PSNI, the RUC and the authorities were not welcome. There was a campaign against state authorities going into areas — there was a political campaign, and different reasons were given — and the result was that many victims were denied justice.”
“The reality, of course, is that reporting was made impossible not by the victims but by those around them — very often, men — who sent clear messages that, regardless of the absolutely appalling criminal abuse against them, they could not seek justice. We heard references to human rights in the debate. That is really important because fundamental human rights — the right to a fair trial, and the right to be able to take the person who committed a crime to court and get justice — were denied to generations of people who were abused, particularly women but also others including children, because of the attitudes of organisations that were then imposed on people.”
“It is absolutely right that the important issue of sexual abuse is explicitly included in the legacy mechanisms. It has been kept in the shadows for far too long. Particular issues need to be examined, and I welcome the fact that a number of Members have touched on them. They include the abusive practice that created an environment in which women, children and anyone else who was abused felt that they could not go to the police or the authorities to get justice. They did not do so for fear of what members of the community — let us call them what they were: members of terrorist organisations — would do to them if they did. <BR /> <BR />Sinéad McLaughlin said, poignantly, that reporting was impossible.”
“The motion brings in a really important issue that has not been explored in the way that it needs to be explored. <BR /> <BR />I pay tribute to the brave people who have stepped forward and campaigned on the issue. I pay tribute to Máiría Cahill for all that she has done in very difficult circumstances. I see, day in and day out, the abuse that she gets on social media and other platforms because she has the audacity to speak her truth — to speak out and to ask for these issues to be addressed. I thank all campaigners who step forward on this important issue and on the more general issue of sexual violence including child sexual violence. We have heard a little about that in the debate. <BR /> <BR />Many good points have been raised.”
“Specifically, the motion calls on the UK Government to ensure that the proposed Legacy Commission provides a pathway for victims of Troubles-related sexual violence to seek a legacy investigation. It also seeks to ensure that crimes of a sexual nature, including rape and child sexual abuse, are included as separate qualifying criteria. <BR /> <BR />Let me be clear that I speak on behalf of the Executive Office when I say that we fully support the motion. Whilst it focuses on the UK Government, which is where responsibility for the legislation will lie, it is important for us, as the Department with responsibility for supporting victims and survivors but also for ending violence against women and girls, to be here to respond to the motion and talk about issues that impact on people across Northern Ireland.”
“I welcome the opportunity to address the Chamber on a motion of profound importance. I begin by expressing my deepest sympathy to anyone who has experienced sexual abuse and crime. I have met victims of such crimes, and I am always struck by the impact of such trauma and inspired by the resilience and dignity that victims are able to manifest in the face of such evil. Victims deserve truth; they deserve justice; and they deserve to be treated with dignity, respect and compassion. <BR /> <BR />The motion recognises the devastating and enduring harm caused by crimes of a sexual nature, including child sexual abuse. I really welcome the fact that, across the House, there is so much support for the motion, which is on an issue that has been in the shadows for far too long.”
“I thank the Member for his question. The Minister for Communities, Gordon Lyons, is one of the most empathetic and compassionate people who I know, and he brings that into his politics day in and day out. I see the people whom he helps, and I see the way that he speaks to people. It is absolutely wrong that, on the basis of one tweet, anybody can hold that somebody does not have empathy or compassion or try to suggest the meaning or intention behind it. We all need to be very careful about a third person being able to do that, and for people to blindly follow that opinion.”
“I am more than happy to go with the Member to Ballymena to talk to people. In all that we do, it is incredibly important that we listen to people on the ground, see what their needs are and see how we can help and support them. As I indicated, there are some examples of really good best practice in the system, and it is important that we try to share those where we can and that we work hand in hand with communities so that they have the right support, the right tools and the right funding to enable them to tackle the big issues. They know most about the issues, and they know what the solutions to them are.”