Emma Pengelly
South Belfast · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“This week, I will travel to France to pay my respects to all those who fought and the many who fell at the Battle of the Somme as we mark its 110th anniversary. <BR /> <BR />From across Northern Ireland, generations have served their country.”
“One of the men who fought was James Sandford, my great-grandfather. He fought, he survived, he went on to fight again, and he was seriously injured in another battle. I am deeply proud of him, and I am proud of all those who stepped forward with such honour in the face of the horror of that war.”
“When I stand there this week, looking at the gravestones of so many who made the ultimate sacrifice to defend our freedom, I will also remember — we must always remember — the responsibility that we carry forward. Remembrance is not only about honouring the past; it is about shaping the future.”
“Last night, people in north Belfast witnessed horrific scenes that have absolutely sickened and appalled people across Northern Ireland. It was a shocking and barbaric act of violence that has left a victim fighting the consequences of a truly savage attack.”
“Every person has the right to walk their streets, live in their community and feel safe in their own neighbourhood. This type of brutality has no place in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />This morning, I spoke with the Chief Constable and the Justice Minister.”
“<BR /> <BR />I have also been in contact with the Prime Minister, because the PSNI has confirmed that the 30-year-old male who has been arrested is believed to be of Somalian heritage.”
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“We are aware of the inquiry chairman's decision to conduct a targeted consultation. The full rationale was set out in his public announcement of 4 November 2015. The historical institutional abuse (HIA) inquiry is independent of government, so this is a matter for the inquiry chairman to address. We cannot answer on his behalf. The Member may wish to write to the inquiry chairman seeking further information. We look forward to receiving the inquiry's report and recommendations in January 2017. However, I highlight the fact that the terms of reference make it clear that, ultimately, the nature and level of any potential redress is a matter for the Northern Ireland Executive.”
“With the proposed transfer of regeneration functions to local councils, it is critical that the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister on behalf of the Executive — Urban Villages is a Northern Ireland Executive programme — have very close contact with them. There are powers that local councils have that will be very useful in expediting the types of work that we want to see. We have been in constant contact with both council areas that are impacted on by the five Urban Village projects. We have invited representatives from both councils to sit on our project management board, and they came along in the past couple of weeks to a meeting that I jointly chaired. Input is invaluable, and we will continue with that relationship as we progress with the development plans and into the delivery stage of Urban Villages.”
“Yes. As the Member will be aware, I am greatly enthusiastic about the Urban Village initiative. I think that there is huge potential for it to really transform communities. It is about top-to-toe transformation, particularly focusing on capital and tackling dereliction and long-standing problems in key areas that have been outstanding in recent years, if not decades. I am pleased to say that the East Belfast Urban Village, which has been renamed "Lower East Side", is progressing very well. He will be aware of a number of consultations and community events to try to identify the actions required for the local area. We are optimistic that a draft plan, which is already being drawn up, will be in a position to be shared more widely in and around March this year.”
“A dedicated team has been established to take forward the development of design plans for the Urban Village projects and the implementation and completion of capital build. Local coordinators have already been appointed in four of the Urban Village areas, and recruitment is under way to identify a suitable candidate for the Fountain and Bogside Urban Village. The local coordinators are actively engaging with communities and stakeholders. A total of £1·79 million worth of capital has been allocated to projects in the Urban Village areas, with a further £1·7 million in revenue committed to the delivery of the programme in this financial year.”
“I beg to introduce the Assembly Members (Reduction of Numbers) Bill [NIA Bill 76/11-16], which is a Bill to reduce the number of Members in the Assembly returned for each constituency.”
“<BR /> <BR />In moving to some concluding paragraphs, I thank Members for their contributions to the debate and for the questions and issues that they have raised. I hope that I have answered comprehensively the issues raised. 'A Fresh Start' has provided a basis for addressing some of our most intractable issues. In relation to departmental restructuring, it has made it possible for us to move forward to an area that will benefit good government and society as a whole. A leaner, more joined-up Administration, with improved cohesion within and between Departments, is in all our interests. Most importantly, hopefully, it will help us to achieve our outcomes in a better way. I commend this Bill to the Assembly.”
“I take the points that Mr McCallister has raised about the systems that we have, but, if we were to hold out for all parties in the Executive to agree everything, we would have even less agreement and it would make it very difficult to move forward. We have striven to get agreement on a range of these issues. As I mentioned, these changes have been discussed for four years now. The changes in this piece of legislation are very straightforward. It is three clauses. Although some Members have expressed concern about wanting to sit and look at this even further, and add another six or 12 months to that process, it is three clauses, and they are very clear. It has been in the public space for the last four years, and now is the time for action and moving on that. I welcome that today.”
“The reality is that, unless we change the culture within Departments — the culture of working in silos and of inefficiency — we will not get better outcomes, regardless of how we change the structures. So, this is an important contribution in terms of the reductions, but we are also very conscious that we need to change the way people work. We have been trying to drive that forward, and it has been challenging. However, we need to get officials, bodies, Departments and, quite frankly, people across the Chamber working better outside the silo of where they are comfortable. <BR /> <BR />We need to be realistic.”
“<BR /> <BR />I welcome John McCallister's contribution. He talked of a change of culture, and we can all support that. There is a saying that does the rounds at conferences or between officials that "Culture eats strategy".”
“Yes. The Member also asked what the Executive had delivered. I wanted him to be in the Chamber just, so that I could throw out a few headline statistics: 33% more spend on health; 22,000 jobs created; 12·5% corporation tax secured by April 2018, giving security to businesses that will attract further foreign direct investment and create further jobs for the people of Northern Ireland; no water rates; and the highest foreign direct investment per head of population. We have people sneering and condescending from the peripheries of the Chamber and the peripheries of the political parties in Northern Ireland, trying to pour negativity on what has been achieved. Yes, it has been hard and it has taken a long time, but we have got agreements and are changing things for the better. The Bill is representative of that.”
“I am trying to move business on. This has been a lengthy response, but I thank the Member for also standing up to take responsibility for the shocking example in relation to —”
“That is probably testimony to the fact that the Ulster Unionist Party absolutely live in the past. It has been a considerable time since a smoking ban was put in place. There certainly were not any smoke-filled rooms in these discussions. He talked about 1998 and the Belfast Agreement being many decades ago. That was a long, long time ago, so they are going to wash their hands and take no responsibility for that whatever. That is an utterly ridiculous argument. He stands up there and says, "Better late than never" and "It is about time" and tries to pour scorn on the parties trying to bring about the changes, while his party created these Departments. The Ulster Unionist Party created those Departments and the burdensome system that we are now trying to deliver change on.”
“I thank the Member for the intervention. Absolutely, I concur. It is deeply ironic that they have opposed accelerated passage. If we want to have better government and a better Assembly, perhaps a good place to start would be our legislative process. Quite frankly, it is far from agile in getting these issues through, necessitating the fact that, to get changes in the last nine to 12 months of an Administration, we have to look at accelerated passage. Perhaps it is a challenge to the Assembly to look at how we can bring about changes and deliver for people in the last year of the Assembly term. <BR /> <BR />It is also deeply ironic that the Member's party walked away from the agreement. They walked away from the Assembly. He talked about smoke-filled rooms.”
“<BR /> <BR />Perhaps there was a little misunderstanding by Mr McCallister of whether the Fire and Rescue Service would be retained in the Health Department. I just wanted to clarify that. David McIlveen queried that as well. I can confirm that, and I know that that will be welcomed by the Fire Service and the health service. <BR /> <BR />I move to the negative contribution of Mr Roy Beggs, who, unfortunately, has not stayed to listen to the response to the many questions that he posed. He started by saying that it was "better late than never". I welcome the agreement. It was hard fought for, hard won and finally achieved, but, quite frankly, that was no thanks to him or his party.”
“There is a programme board being led by the permanent secretary in DEL, presumably under the guidance of the head of the Civil Service, and I know that the board has been liaising with the trade unions throughout the process. He mentioned the efficiency of arm's-length bodies. I can give him a confirmation that arm's-length bodies have not been immune from efficiencies over a number of years. We made it clear through the Department of Finance and Personnel that arm's-length bodies must be included in efficiency measures. They have made year-on-year efficiencies, but we will continue to look at how we can improve that relationship. There has been some rationalisation of arm's-length bodies, and we will continue to look at what is necessary. Where it is unnecessary, that should be merged and examined in terms of a better way of working.”
“There are many visions contained in many strategies and many documents, but, for the Programme for Government, we will strive to have a clear vision of where we want to bring Northern Ireland. I have heard it said by all parties around the Chamber that we have a shared vision of wanting to build a better and brighter future for Northern Ireland. That means economic growth and reforming government, and today is a critical step in doing that. <BR /> <BR />I will clarify some of the Member's comments. He is not here at the moment, but hopefully he will read this in Hansard. Terms and conditions for staff will be largely unaffected. The only change that is possible may be a change of working location.”
“I find it difficult to take criticism from a party that is not prepared to step up and make the difficult decisions, the compromises and the agreements that are required to move Northern Ireland forward and get those issues moving. <BR /> <BR />My colleague David McIlveen paid tribute to Pat Ramsey: I add my best wishes to that sentiment. I did not have much opportunity to know Mr Ramsey, except by reputation, or work with him. Warm words have been said, and it has been mentioned many times that he is a gentleman. Probably all of us around the House would like to have that type of tribute paid on leaving a political career, so I support David's comments on that. <BR /> <BR />David told a story in which he talked about a destination and asked this: where do we want to go? I absolutely concur with that sentiment. We need to have a vision.”
“We have made it clear in the Chamber that we are committed to bringing forward a poverty strategy under section 28E based on objective need, and I seek to give better clarity on what "objective need" means. It is used colloquially to mean "spatial need", and that is a mistake. <BR /> <BR />Andy Allen said that this should have happened many, many years ago. The first thing that I will say back to the Member from the Ulster Unionist Party is that, given what happened last Christmas and given that the Ulster Unionist Party did not agree to 'A Fresh Start' or want to be part of that agreement, if it were left to that party, it still would not be done. It certainly would not be done in time for the Administration in the next mandate.”
“There are a range of policies that any Department can implement, and you implement those policies on the basis of the problem that you are trying to resolve. There will be some problems with need, and, in that case, absolutely, there should be an objective-need approach. Section 28E of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 clearly states that there is a statutory obligation that a poverty strategy needs to be based on objective need. There are other strategies, of course, as you and your party will be well aware. For example, there is a statutory obligation in section 75(2) on good relations. There will be other policies and statutory requirements that mean that we will use a different range of criteria. <BR /> <BR />I will clarify my comments in that context.”
“I am firmly of the view, for example, that a huge strategy that collates a range of actions happening in Departments is not the way to bring about change. We need to have an outcomes focus and to look at delivery frameworks and a better way of doing business across policies, within Departments and between Departments and other agencies. Mr Andy Allen —”
“I do not think that anybody is suggesting today that the policy areas in Departments are crystallised and cannot or should not be changed. I have already mentioned the Delivering Social Change agenda, which was a new policy area to be pushed forward. I think that we need to look at the way that we have operated for very many years to see what is working and what is not working, and what is not working should be left behind. On previous occasions, I have mentioned the approach of Departments to strategies. We have started to take an approach of putting many strategies on a statutory basis.”
“I know, from talking to very many groups, including those involved in the legal challenge, that there seems to be a sense that objective need is almost entirely to do with spatial deprivation. My comments were to try to make it absolutely clear that that is not the case. I mentioned objective need in the Department of Health — the objective medical expertise for your needs. As for unemployment, it does not matter where you live or what the spatial deprivation is, you will get your benefits and the help that you are entitled to. So, my point was more one of clarification about the understanding of objective need, not about actually changing that. <BR /> <BR />However, we need to step back and change some of what we do right across government.”
“My colleagues in other Departments, including the Department of Health and the Department of Finance and Personnel, are pushing forward an ambitious agenda for efficiency and reform, and we will continue to do that. We have made it absolutely clear that one of our key commitments is providing better public services for people in Northern Ireland, and that will require a change in how we do things and deliver services. We have made a commitment to drive through efficiencies and reform to bring about those changes. <BR /> <BR />The Member mentioned the issue of objective need that I had raised. To clarify for him, I am not necessarily saying that we should move away from objective need but, rather, that there is a great deal of misunderstanding about what objective need is.”
“They are intractable problems that people have struggled with for very many years. There is an agreement there and, while it may not have everything in it that we would hope for, it is a good agreement and a fresh start on a range of issues, and that should be welcomed, not received with such negativity. I believe that it is ambitious and comprehensive. <BR /> <BR />Mr Attwood raised the issue of the nine Departments and said that it is not a panacea or the answer to inefficiency or bad working. I absolutely agree. I do not think that anybody is suggesting that it is, but it is a good start. It is one of a range of necessary measures.”
“I believe that it is right to use this process to ensure that that is in place for the next mandate and to give the next mandate the best possible opportunity to deliver for the people of Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />I move on to the contribution from Alex Attwood. Again, there was a bit of negativity from him. He wanted to pour cold water on 'A Fresh Start'. What I would say to him is that, for many people, this is not a disappointment. Some elements will require further discussion, and we have made commitments to continue to discuss those very difficult and tricky issues. We got agreement on how to deal with welfare reform, on having in place 12·5% corporation tax by April 2018, and on comprehensively taking on cross-border crime and tackling paramilitarism. Those are big, big issues of agreement.”
“<BR /> <BR />There was negativity, and I will come to that shortly. Others will snipe, sneer and condescend from their utopian fantasy world of what should be instead of what is. What I would say is that we will try to achieve action and agreement within the context that we exist in while striving to make the necessary changes to improve the system, and I believe that today is a very important step towards improving the system. <BR /> <BR />Alex Maskey welcomed the fact that we are getting on with implementing the agreement on those actions, and I absolutely concur with that sentiment. I think that action is good, but it takes a long time, as I mentioned, to get agreement.”
“That was picked up by a number of Members. As the Member is well aware, the formal procedures are not always conducive to getting those negotiations and agreements that are required to bring these matters forward. So, we have to look outside the formal structures, but, of course, we liaise and interface with those formal structures when required and when appropriate to get that type of feedback. <BR /> <BR />I will turn to the contribution made by Paul Frew, who welcomed that we have agreement. I absolutely and wholeheartedly concur: getting agreement across a mandatory coalition, especially one that is so ideologically opposed or which comes from such different ideological positions, is not easy. Yes, it is slow and difficult, but it is worth persevering and achieving those agreed actions.”
“I am happy to put it on the record that we will appreciate the Committee's help in this in the next few months and its comments on and analysis of the proposals set before it. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the support of the Alliance Party on reform. I am fully supportive of driving forward better government and a better Assembly. That is why I have been very involved in the Department, as has junior Minister McCann, on driving forward better working across Departments, trying to break down silo mentalities and to get better cross-policy working. Delivering Social Change is one example of trying to get a delivery framework. <BR /> <BR />However, Mr Lyttle mentioned rubber-stamping. What I will say is that we exist within a legislative and Executive context that requires hard graft to bring about brokered agreements.”
“<BR /> <BR />The changes will have consequences for the Assembly too. Having fewer Departments should simplify Assembly Committee structures and business scheduling. Together with wider public-sector reform initiatives, restructuring will lead to a more efficient Administration on many levels. That will help us to deliver the excellence in public service and value for money that the citizen rightly expects. <BR /> <BR />I will turn briefly to the various contributions and thank all those who contributed. First, Mr Lyttle outlined the role of the Committee thus far in this issue and in the Bill. We appreciate the Committee's support for our actions on accelerated passage and the reform of the Departments. Mr Lyttle welcomed that the Committee will get to scrutinise the transfer of functions Order.”
“It should be done, it should be done now and it should be done in advance of the new mandate in 2016. <BR /> <BR />There is a broad consensus on a nine-Department Executive as a viable model for our future Administration. The Bill creates a framework for the most extensive reorganisation of the departmental system since 1999. Although it is quite a compact Bill, its impact on future Administrations will be far-reaching. A streamlined nine-Department system will offer fresh opportunities for improving the way we do business. The future Departments will have a clearer identity that, in my view, will be appreciated by citizens. The new slimmed-down structure will enable related policies and functions to be brigaded together and synergies to be achieved. It will provide a leaner, more efficient Executive.”
“The issues addressed in the Bill featured in a Programme for Government commitment; they were the subject of a review and report by the Assembly and Executive Review Committee in 2012; they underwent detailed consideration during the political process leading to the Stormont House Agreement in December last year; they were extensively discussed by the Executive at the beginning of this year; and they featured in the recent talks process that led to last month's Fresh Start Agreement. It is therefore disappointing that some Members have taken issue with the speed with which we are trying to bring about this reform, given that it has been discussed so extensively over the last four years. I say to those Members that this is the time for action.”
“I am grateful for Members' contributions. They have been invaluable and informative, although some were disappointingly negative, given that this is a good news story and a good day for government in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />Reforming institutional structures has been a declared objective of government here for many years, and reducing the number of Departments has long been recognised as a key element of reform. The Bill represents a major element in the process of reform.”
“The Departments Bill will help us do that by providing a firm basis for good and efficient government from the outset of the next Assembly mandate. I commend the Bill to the Assembly.”
“A major programme is being taken forward across Departments to ensure that the necessary administrative arrangements are in place at the appropriate time. This work has been continuing since last spring and is making rapid progress towards all Departments achieving operational status on day one. It will ensure that support for the next Executive, future Ministers and the institutions is in place, with full access to key systems and information. <BR /> <BR />The conclusion of the recent talks process and the publication of 'A Fresh Start' has provided a basis for addressing some of our most intractable issues. In relation to departmental restructuring, it has made it possible for us to move forward quickly. We all want to improve the performance of Departments and to provide the best possible services to the public.”
“The decisions taken on restructuring and the reduction in the number of Departments will provide for a leaner, more streamlined and more efficient Administration. There will be fewer Ministers, and departmental hierarchies, permanent secretaries, central management units, press offices and support functions can be rationalised. However, we re-emphasise that, at this stage, no functions impacting on the public are being done away with and no policies terminated. These are changes to the machinery of government, but they are changes that will help us find better ways of doing things and improving services to the public. <BR /> <BR />At an operational level, it will be a challenging exercise to reduce 12 Departments to nine.”
“In due course, the order will also be subject to an affirmation debate in the Assembly near the end of the session, after the Departments Bill has completed its Final Stage.”
“However, the dissolution of three Departments will involve the reallocation of their existing functions, and there is to be some additional reallocation of the functions of others. Those details, however, are not addressed in the Departments Bill before the House today. Instead, the reallocation of statutory functions will be provided for in a separate transfer of functions order, which is at an advanced stage of preparation. It will make detailed provision for the statutory responsibilities that are to move between Departments in consequence of the Executive's decisions. The order will be sent in draft form for scrutiny to the Committee for the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister, and we will pay due attention to the Committee's views in finalising that order.”
“<BR /> <BR />Schedule 1 lists all nine future Departments under the titles that they will carry from 2016, and schedule 2 makes necessary amendments to the Ombudsman (Northern Ireland) Order 1996. The Bill reflects the law as it stands, but we are conscious of the progress in the Assembly of the Public Services Ombudsman Bill, which will supersede the Ombudsman Order. Pending the progress of that Bill, the Departments Bill may require a technical amendment to schedule 2 at a later stage. Schedule 3 repeals provisions in the Departments (Northern Ireland) Order 1999, as subsequently amended. It has the effect of removing references to the 12-Department model. <BR /> <BR />Changing the name of a Department does not, in itself, have any immediate impact on its functions.”
“Clause 1 renames seven existing Departments and dissolves three Departments — DEL, DCAL and DOE — as required to establish the new structures. There is no reference to the Department of Education and the Department of Justice, which are not affected by the Bill. It applies the Departments (Northern Ireland) Order 1999 to the new set of nine Departments. Clause 2 references schedules 2 and 3, which contain, respectively, consequential amendments and repeals. Clause 3 gives the title of the Act and arrangements for the commencements of clauses 1 and 2 on a day or days to be appointed by the First Minister and deputy First Minister. Clauses 1 and 2 are likely to be commenced very shortly after the election in May 2016.”
“The names of two existing Departments — the Department of Education and the Department of Justice — are unchanged. <BR /> <BR />The Bill also makes necessary changes to the Departments (Northern Ireland) Order 1999, which provided the basis for the current departmental system. However, important provisions of the 1999 Order on the legal status of Northern Ireland Departments generally and the exercise of their functions will not be amended. <BR /> <BR />The Departments Bill sets out the framework of nine Departments, as envisaged in the Stormont House Agreement endorsed by party leaders and agreed by the Executive. It is, as I mentioned, a short Bill to establish the new departmental framework in law. It consists of just three clauses and three schedules.”
“<BR /> <BR />The nine Departments are to be known as follows: the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs; the Department for Communities; the Department for the Economy; the Department of Education; the Department of Finance; the Department of Health; the Department for Infrastructure; the Department of Justice; and the Executive Office. In almost all cases, the departmental titles are short and focused, with the exceptional case of the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs, where a longer title has been chosen to reflect the three significant pillars of its work. <BR /> <BR />The purpose of the Departments Bill is to create a statutory framework for the new model of nine Departments. It is a short Bill. It renames seven Departments and dissolves three others: DEL, DCAL and DOE.”
“The policy proposals underpinning departmental restructuring were the subject of detailed consideration during the political process that led to the Stormont House Agreement, and the Executive discussed the matter on several occasions in the early part of this year. On 2 March 2015, the First Minister announced to the Assembly the decisions that had been reached by the Executive on the new departmental structures as a consequence of the Stormont House Agreement. He set out a future model of nine Departments with all the powers, functions and services of the current 12 Departments. Most importantly, no functions will be done away with and no policies will be terminated at this stage as a consequence of the restructuring.”
“Although the Committee refrained from making recommendations, it identified areas of commonality that broadly reflected its views on how Departments could be reorganised, with the retention of the Department of Health, the Department of Justice and the Department of Education; a new Department for the Economy; a Department embracing agriculture, environment and rural development; a new social and community Department; and the reform of OFMDFM. All those suggestions prefigured what is in this Bill.”
“One of the ways in which 'A Fresh Start' provides for that will be by delivering on the commitment in the Stormont House Agreement to reduce the number of Departments from 12 to nine in time for the 2016 Assembly election. <BR /> <BR />Reform of our structures of government has been an issue for a considerable time. The departmental system established in 1999 has long been regarded as cumbersome and ripe for reform. There was a commitment in the Programme for Government to agree changes to the structures that would apply in the next mandate. In 2012, the Assembly and Executive Review Committee conducted a review and produced a report on the reduction in the number of Departments. It received 21 consultation submissions from party political, academic, economic and community stakeholders.”
“In their introduction to the document 'A Fresh Start: The Stormont Agreement and Implementation Plan', published on 17 November 2015, the First Minister and the deputy First Minister stated:”
“Some 3,300 families have been supported through the family support hubs, and 650 families have been supported by the supporting parenting signature project. <BR /> <BR />I honestly believe that significant work has been done. It is valuable work. I think that this is the right approach. Rather than having a strategy that does not necessarily achieve anything, we have a delivery framework that is delivering changes on the ground and producing results in outcomes. I have indicated that I am disappointed in the court's judgement, but we have accepted it. We will now move to bring all that work together and produce a strategy.”
“I can speak only for myself. I have been clear that we have accepted the court's judgement, although I have to say that I was very disappointed in it. The court specifically looked at the definition of a strategy. In OFMDFM, we have the child poverty strategy. We had adopted the architecture and key principles of Lifetime Opportunities, which was the anti-poverty strategy, and rolled out the Delivering Social Change delivery framework. Along with that, we had the six signature projects on which, as I mentioned, we spent £27 million. I honestly believe that those projects have made a very fundamental difference to people's lives. I mentioned the 16,000 young people who have had numeracy and literacy support.”
“Rather than just concentrating on the income of the family, for example, we looked at the education project under Delivering Social Change. We introduced the literacy and numeracy scheme, and 16,000 young people across Northern Ireland benefited from that. It did not affect the income of the family, but it was very clear that, after the first year of its operation, there was a 6·3% increase in the number of non-grammar school pupils achieving five GCSEs at grades A to C. That is a direct outcome of an anti-poverty intervention that is not necessarily income-based.”
“That is very much at the heart of our Delivering Social Change agenda. <BR /> <BR />The Northern Ireland Executive have been absolutely keen to keep as much money as possible in families' pockets. We refused to introduce water rates, for example, to try to keep costs down for average households. In addition, we looked at a range of initiatives to try to address where poverty was influencing poor outcomes.”
“In our work on social change over the last five years, the Office of the First and deputy First Minister has taken a deliberate change in approach. Prior to that, we collated significant strategies; we asked all the Departments about what they were doing in relation to anti-poverty activities. We produced that and monitored progress against it. At the end of that process, I was not particularly convinced that we had achieved anything, so, around four or five years ago, we changed our approach quite fundamentally to look at, for example, delivery frameworks and targeting specific actions to address poor outcomes. We also engaged with a wide range of academics, experts and stakeholders on these matters. It was very clear from that work that income poverty need not lead to bad outcomes.”