Emma Pengelly
South Belfast · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“This week, I will travel to France to pay my respects to all those who fought and the many who fell at the Battle of the Somme as we mark its 110th anniversary. <BR /> <BR />From across Northern Ireland, generations have served their country.”
“One of the men who fought was James Sandford, my great-grandfather. He fought, he survived, he went on to fight again, and he was seriously injured in another battle. I am deeply proud of him, and I am proud of all those who stepped forward with such honour in the face of the horror of that war.”
“When I stand there this week, looking at the gravestones of so many who made the ultimate sacrifice to defend our freedom, I will also remember — we must always remember — the responsibility that we carry forward. Remembrance is not only about honouring the past; it is about shaping the future.”
“Last night, people in north Belfast witnessed horrific scenes that have absolutely sickened and appalled people across Northern Ireland. It was a shocking and barbaric act of violence that has left a victim fighting the consequences of a truly savage attack.”
“Every person has the right to walk their streets, live in their community and feel safe in their own neighbourhood. This type of brutality has no place in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />This morning, I spoke with the Chief Constable and the Justice Minister.”
“<BR /> <BR />I have also been in contact with the Prime Minister, because the PSNI has confirmed that the 30-year-old male who has been arrested is believed to be of Somalian heritage.”
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“I thank the Member for his question. It will be an important body to build those relationships, tackle those shared challenges and maximise those shared opportunities across our United Kingdom. It is the first time that we have had a truly United Kingdom-level body arising from all the other bodies that did not deal with the internal and exclusive issues of the United Kingdom from the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement. <BR /> <BR />On trade flows, I will use the example of the many, many services issues across this United Kingdom where, if people are applying for something, seeking insurance or having other issues, they will proceed through that, only to be told that it does not apply to Northern Ireland.”
“How has a particular region significantly improved its economic inactivity figures?" We can identify those types of solutions, check to see whether they are fit for purpose in Northern Ireland, and tailor them if needs be, but that accelerates the solutions to the big challenges that we face. Of course, shared learning is essential. We have so much in common across this United Kingdom; let us try to find shared solutions to some of the big challenges and maximise our shared opportunities.”
“I thank the Member for his question. Indeed, for policy development, the design of interventions, the way that they are rolled out and even how we measure the effectiveness of interventions with outcomes-based accountability, indicators and evaluation — all those things have developed significantly over the past number of years. There are really good examples of that being rolled out elsewhere across the United Kingdom and the globe. <BR /> <BR />Northern Ireland is a small place, and there is no need for us to constantly try to reinvent the wheel and solutions to the challenges we face, because very often they are common. We have the ability to look elsewhere and say, "What is an intervention that has worked in education underachievement?”
“My view is that it is a comparatively early stage, and, again, we can shape what the enhanced investment zone will look like. One of the issues that I raised is the need for a big infrastructure piece. We know that there are big challenges and issues in, for example, water, sewage and energy. Those things are absolutely necessary for economic growth and to support companies to both expand and set up here. There is potential, but I can advise the Member that it is at an early stage. It is being led by the UK Government, but of course the Executive, and particularly the Department for the Economy, will feed in to shape it and make sure it is fit for purpose and benefits all throughout Northern Ireland.”
“It will have flexibility within that, including on some tax incentives, but also other incentives, potentially on National Insurance and around supporting companies.”
“I thank the Member for her question. She will be aware that when we have discussed the prosperity agenda and growing the economy in Northern Ireland, we have always been careful to highlight the fact that we want that to be across and throughout Northern Ireland and not just for one part of it. My understanding of the enhanced investment zone is that it is a particular vehicle designed for Northern Ireland. It builds on the investment zones that have been rolled out elsewhere in the UK.”
“There is huge benefit in getting people together to look at solutions, including on green technology, innovation in business and how we support communities in that regard, not just in the other devolved regions that have shown an interest in this — and they have — but in the regions within those devolved Administrations.”
“I thank the Member for her question. As I indicated, the Council came out of the 'Safeguarding the Union' Command Paper, which was primarily about relationships and issues between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. There is no doubt, however, that this is about building relationships across the United Kingdom, not just between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. It often strikes me that we do not collaborate enough across Departments, civic and business organisations and community and education bodies with our counterparts in Scotland, Wales and England, but there are huge commonalities in challenges and opportunities between the regions of the UK. Farmers in Northern Ireland have similar challenges and issues to those of farmers in Yorkshire, Devon, Cornwall and parts of Scotland and Wales.”
“<BR /> <BR />It was a good conversation and covered many of those elements, but we also had a conversation about educational underachievement. We recognised that the challenges that we have with educational underachievement, particularly for those in receipt of free school meals, are common across many areas in Scotland, England and Wales. Some really good projects with proven outcomes have been rolled out in those areas, and it would be positive for us to examine whether they are suitable to be rolled out in Northern Ireland. An interesting stream of work can definitely be taken from that initial meeting.”
“I thank the Member for his question. It was quite a wide-ranging conversation. It was fortunate that the Under Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Jacob Young, was present, because he is involved in many of the levelling up-type projects, which reach across education and community investment. The community ownership scheme is a good example of that: communities in Northern Ireland have benefited from it more than those in any other place in the United Kingdom. It takes assets in a community, such as buildings or facilities that may be a blight or are not being used, into community ownership for the benefit of the community. That has been hugely positive, and there has been significant interest in Northern Ireland.”
“In the announcements that are coming out of the inaugural East-West Council meeting about looking at investment through the Shared Prosperity Fund, initiatives on educational underachievement and adult numeracy, and additional funding for investment in businesses, green technology, R&D and other areas, you can see that there is potential for not only discussing those important strategic objectives but urging announcements and securing commitments to real actions against those objectives. <BR /> <BR />I am very excited about the opportunities for the East-West Council. It is for us to shape and build it and make of it what we can. We should all be focused on ensuring that we maximise the potential of this exciting new body.”
“I thank the Member for her question. She is absolutely right. That is the great benefit of the Council. We can shape it. As a concept, it is fundamentally based on building better relationships and having a key forum that will meet at least three times a year, so we know that there will be opportunities then to raise grievances, problems and challenges and to ask for shared support in finding solutions to some of those. <BR /> <BR />You are absolutely right.”
“It gives us the opportunity to have some exciting initiatives and to build on the best practice of those other bodies not by replicating them but by complementing and supplementing them by taking some of the really good projects that we have seen elsewhere that work well through collaboration and by bringing those forward to the benefit of our university, civic, business and political institutions across this United Kingdom.”
“Given my response to the previous question, I believe that the Council will be important to building relationships between Ministers from all jurisdictions when looking at, as I indicated, exciting initiatives and opportunities with the civic, business, educational and university sectors. That will be to the benefit of funding applications and trying to problem-solve at an earlier stage. There is no doubt that we have structures, but there is also no doubt that, at times, there have been frustrations about an inability to get some of the issues resolved. The body gives us the opportunity, first of all, to look strategically at what is not working right and to have a forum that, as I said, is agile enough to respond to emerging issues.”
“<BR /> <BR />The body is designed to have engagement at a political level that is agile and flexible and that can respond to building those relationships. We have seen much good work in building North/South relationships through civic, business and political engagement, yet, for decades, we have not had that across the UK. We have not had that cooperation within the United Kingdom. Rather than looking at the specifically governmental issues that those other bodies deal with, through the new body, we have a real opportunity to talk about strategic issues across a whole range of sectors for the benefit of the people of Northern Ireland and across the UK.”
“My understanding is that the origin of the body lies very much in the fact that, while there are a number of key bodies for supporting North/South, British-Irish and all-island communication among the structured institutions of the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement, there was nothing that focused particularly and specifically on the UK internally. <BR /> <BR />You referenced the interministerial governmental structures, so you will be aware that there is a transition. That transition happened because of decisions that the UK Government took that arose from the review of the bodies that existed prior to that, which were the joint ministerial councils and the sectoral bodies. Those bodies tend to be structured, specific in their sectoral responsibilities and, it is fair to say, frustrating for some at times.”
“We know that many of the solutions are based in the civic and community sector, as is the delivery of those solutions. Therefore, building relationships between the civic and community sector across the United Kingdom is a huge opportunity for us; an opportunity that, I believe, will be of significant benefit to everybody in Northern Ireland.”
“I thank the Member for his question. Touching on some of what has already been discussed here, this is not a body that currently has a statutory basis. Therefore, it is not rigid with parameters that perhaps limit opportunity, and there is a good opportunity for us all now to look at where this body can be of most benefit. We would not want it to be confined and rigid. It is important that it is flexible and agile and can respond to needs and issues as they arise. <BR /> <BR />There is absolutely no doubt that there are many shared challenges across this United Kingdom, but there are also opportunities to look at solutions that have been found elsewhere that can be of help to us here. The sharing of that knowledge is critical, but that is not at just a political level.”
“<BR /> <BR />The issue of delays in Levelling Up Fund payments was raised to ensure that Northern Ireland has a more meaningful say at all stages of policy development, including the delivery and roll-out of that. I am a great believer that, to help that, those relationships and the strengthening of those relationships, including through this forum, will be of benefit.”
“I thank the Member for her question. The meeting focused on the strategic objectives for the way forward and the potential for the new body, so it was at a higher level. However, I believe that everybody around the table was excited about the opportunities that the body could bring. It focuses primarily on internal relationships, improving cooperation and relationships across not just the political but civic, educational and business groups and their potential. That was the primary focus of the meeting. Of course, growing our economy and trade will feature, particularly as the UK Government proceed with the development of InterTrade UK.”
“<BR /> <BR />It is important to point out that there is also benefit in cooperation with other regions. For example, there are matters where farmers in Northern Ireland will have more in common with farmers in Yorkshire than farmers in Yorkshire may have with those in London. There is good reasoning for cooperation across the regions, not just the devolved areas in the UK.”
“I thank the Member for his question. The forum was an initiative that came out of the 'Safeguarding the Union' Command Paper, which is an agreement that came from negotiation between Northern Ireland and the United Kingdom Government. The initiative came out of those discussions, and that is why the inaugural meeting focused particularly on engagement between Northern Ireland and the United Kingdom Government. It was made clear, though, at the meeting and, indeed, in the press afterwards that other jurisdictions would be invited to participate. Indeed, we have had correspondence from the Scottish Government in relation to the matter. It is a forum for all of the United Kingdom in strengthening relationships across and within the United Kingdom, so I think that there will be interest from others to take part.”
“By bringing together the collective experience, knowledge and expertise of its members, the Council will be a vehicle for overcoming obstacles, seizing opportunities and harnessing the immense potential that Northern Ireland has to offer for the benefit of all who live, work and do business here.”
“The Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities and Minister for Intergovernmental Relations will sponsor the Council and chair when in attendance. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland will act as co-sponsor and deputy chair. The secretariat for the Council will also engage directly with Departments via their respective private offices on specific matters to be discussed at future Council meetings. Ministers will continue to bring specific issues to the Executive as required and ensure that the Assembly is kept informed as appropriate. <BR /> <BR />I trust that Members will view the creation of the Council as a catalyst for positive change.”
“As part of that, an award of £11·2 million will go to Invest Northern Ireland to boost the take-up of new technologies and innovations and develop and grow important sectors, such as manufacturing, health and life sciences and agri-food. <BR /> <BR />The Council also recognised the positive impact of the community ownership fund here, which reflects our strong and vibrant charitable, community and voluntary sector, and endorsed the third and final round of funding for the initiative. That will help bring spaces back to life and enable communities to take ownership of important community assets. Those projects are examples of the UK Government and the Executive cooperating to address the needs of people and businesses in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />The East-West Council is expected to meet regularly.”
“While bodies exist for the facilitation and promotion of the UK’s international trade, we also discussed opportunities that a new body, InterTrade UK, could bring to promote trade and unlock barriers within the United Kingdom. <BR /> <BR />As well as discussing governance and strategic direction, the Council endorsed £150 million for the new enhanced investment zone in Northern Ireland, which will provide targeted incentives and interventions to encourage investment and boost growth. In addition, we welcomed the announcement of awards totalling more than £17 million from the UK Shared Prosperity Fund, which will be used to support adult numeracy and business innovation here.”
“We stressed the need to boost economic, educational, sporting and cultural opportunities in Northern Ireland. We highlighted the importance of enhancing the links across the UK so that we can work together on a wide range of issues to deliver real benefits for everyone here. We want to see more connectivity between business, skills, trade and innovation across the UK, and we want to find solutions to shared challenges. We also want to raise the profile of the opportunities that Northern Ireland offers to investors as well as support export and import markets in key sectors. In addition, we must not lose sight of the opportunities presented by maximising trade within this United Kingdom.”
“Those include economic inactivity, east-west institutional connectivity and trade flows as well as international investment. <BR /> <BR />The inaugural Council meeting took place in Dover House, London on 26 March. It was chaired by the Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities and Minister for Intergovernmental Relations, Michael Gove. Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Chris Heaton-Harris; Minister of State for Northern Ireland, Steve Baker; and the Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for levelling up, Jacob Young, were also in attendance. The Minister for the Economy, Conor Murphy, and the Communities Minister, Gordon Lyons, accompanied the First Minister and me. <BR /> <BR />The first meeting focused on the Council’s strategic direction and governance.”
“There is significant potential in strengthening the cooperation between Northern Ireland, Wales, Scotland and England, so that we can address shared challenges, grasp shared opportunities and improve the lives of people here. <BR /> <BR />The East-West Council will raise the profile of the opportunities that Northern Ireland offers by supporting connectivity between business, skills, trade and innovation within the UK. It will act in an advisory function to drive east-west engagement and to develop and share existing clusters of excellence, and will seek to raise the profile of Northern Ireland in decision-making across business and Governments. <BR /> <BR />The Council's work will be driven by targeted "missions", outlined in the Command Paper, that are designed to tackle some of Northern Ireland's most challenging issues.”
“The East-West Council was established as part of the 'Safeguarding the Union' Command Paper published by the UK Government in January 2024 ahead of the return of the Executive. It is a unique new forum, bringing together key representatives from government, civil society and business to identify opportunities for deepening connections in areas such as trade, transport, education, sport and culture. <BR /> <BR />There are statutory structures already in place to facilitate cooperation between the United Kingdom Government and the Irish Government, the Northern Ireland Executive and the Irish Government, and all the jurisdictions across these islands. It is important to remember that the Council's role is not to replicate those already well-established arrangements, but, rather, to complement them.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am thankful for the opportunity to respond to the debate and to outline our position. Issues around flags are demanding and difficult, and we all must be realistic about the challenge involved. I finish by saying that we have the best chance of making progress on these issues if people feel more confident in their relationships with each other, tolerant of difference and have respect for all cultures and traditions. That is something about which the First Minister and I are determined to set a positive tone: one of respect and moving forward in celebration of our identities here in Northern Ireland.”
“I am going to run out of time, I am afraid, so I do not have time to give way. <BR /> <BR />I want to touch on a number of other references. Throughout my comments, I have referenced the paramilitary flags and the flying of tattered flags. Reference was made to handing this over to the PSNI or to the councils. Again, we need to find realistic solutions to these issues. At this stage, we are working through some of the details in relation to what the FICT report produced and where some of the work that had been led by previous junior Ministers had got to — up until this point — to find out whether we can find a way forward on some of the recommendations where there is hope of consensus. However, to be clear, at this time, there is no consensus around the particular paragraphs that have been drawn out by the motion.”
“<BR /> <BR />There has clearly been a strong cross-community focus in this space around an opposition to paramilitary flags and flags being tattered, but key in relation to that is the message that has been sent out too many times — time and time again — that people need to ask permission for the flying of the official flag of this country — the flag that they are very proud of, and which should not be seen as being offensive. However, I am not naive. We live in a space that, at times, can be contentious, and we need to work through those contentious issues, but it is important that we differentiate between the flying of a flag that is the flag of the country — a legitimate flag of identity — and some of the other flags that have caused contention.”
“The Union flag is something that I am deeply proud of. It is something that represents my identity and my nationality. It is the flag of my country. As has been said in many of the contributions, I hate to see those flags flying in tatters. That is deeply disrespectful. I see disrespect to my flag all the time. I also find it deeply hurtful when I hear people say that the flying of my flag — the flag that represents my identity — is offensive. We need to be careful about the dialogue and differentiation around all of this.”
“I thank the Member for his contribution. It is an important point, and it is one on which, I think, there has been commonality across many of the contributions. A number of key points came out from many of the contributions, including an absolutely shared opposition to paramilitary flags and paramilitary flags that are designed to intimidate. I do not believe that any of us in this space would support, or do support, that. It is a difficulty and a challenge; it is something that has no space or place within the society of today, nor did it ever have. It is a challenge that needs to be addressed. Some of the difficulties in this debate generally, including in the specific debate, related to the conflation of some of those issues with the flags of somebody's identity and nationality. I speak personally when I speak here.”
“There is simply not a political consensus around some issues, and that is perfectly understandable. You get that in every place. The idea that we should simply push forward with something, regardless of the content, will not work, because we need to look at what we are actually moving forward with and consider whether we can find that consensus. I will be very much upfront, in the role that I play, in putting my hand up to say, "In my view, we will not get consensus on that issue", or, "We will strive to get a way through this". However, if we are going to take risks and try to push that forward in a difficult space, we must acknowledge that, at times, you will not necessarily find a solution that everybody is content with.”
“There is an incredible shared education campus in Limavady, and it is such a joy to see that respect for each other's identities. <BR /> <BR />I will turn to Members' contributions. The debate has undoubtedly reflected some of our personal political views, but there was also a lot of commonality, and I think that we can take that forward. First, Paula Bradshaw acknowledged some of the difficulties in the report and that there was not consensus on that. Doug Beattie picked up on the point about pushing some of these issues back. Very often — too often, in my view — we look at these very difficult issues and see the lack of consensus on them as political failure, but the reality is that we need to acknowledge that some issues are not stuck and that issues are not the product of political failure.”
“<BR /> <BR />More than 30,000 young people have taken part in nearly 900 T:BUC camps, and the vast majority of those who take part indicate that they have forged friendships across the community and will continue with those friendships beyond the end of those camps. Our five Urban Villages have been established, and the target of building 10 shared neighbourhoods has been met. There are absolutely some challenges with shared neighbourhoods, but not only did we meet the target of 10 shared neighbourhoods but we exceeded it significantly, with many of those rolled out successfully throughout Northern Ireland. More than 27,000 participants took part in the Uniting Communities programme, and 7,800 young people participated in the United Youth programme.”
“We want everybody in Northern Ireland to be able to live free from intimidation. The T:BUC strategy focuses on fostering those relationships, addressing the root causes of intolerance, bigotry or sectarianism and trying to ensure that there is greater respect in all those things. Yes, we need to be realistic, but we are absolutely ambitious about what we can achieve. <BR /> <BR />The Executive's Together: Building a United Community programme — the first T:BUC strategy — sought to create such a society. I have talked about these figures before in this place, but it is worth reiterating the positive progress that has been made, because, on many occasions, we pull each other apart and pull each other's communities apart in respect of the very notable failures, but there have been significant successes.”
“Sorry, I want to make some progress, but, if I can, I will give way in due course. <BR /> <BR />The most recent step in the dialogue was the creation of that commission arising from the protocol. There have been some successes and some failures from that. The work of the commission included the aim of developing an open, tolerant and mutually respectful society; and the development of shared identity, relying on mutual interdependencies and areas of common value. A lot of this work, including the analysis and the many, many hours of positive work that the commission engaged in, informed the Together: Building a United Community (T:BUC) strategy and will inform the review of that strategy. Ultimately, I believe that all of us around this place want to avoid community tensions.”
“Yes, we need an analysis of why it fails, and, when it fails, we must do more to ensure that it works. One thing we know in Northern Ireland is that, if you move forward by imposing the will of some on others, that creates tension and community friction, and that is exactly why we need to keep the conversations going. We need to find the solutions and approach this with hope.”
“That protocol was developed in association with the PSNI, the then Department for Social Development, the then Department for Regional Development's Roads Service and the then Department of the Environment's Planning Service, along with the Housing Executive. Many Members in the House will have worked with elements of the protocol in their constituencies. We have seen examples of where that protocol worked well, but we have seen very clear examples of where the protocol failed. Undoubtedly, the protocol worked well in places where strong community organisations worked with political representatives and other agencies to find solutions to the issues through consensus and discussion. That is key to the way forward. <BR /> <BR />The flags protocol aimed to advance a partnership approach to develop a strategic and graduated response.”
“I acknowledge that any discussion of the matter has been difficult and that it relates to contested issues. I genuinely hope — I think that I can say this on behalf of the entire Executive — that we do not spend too much of the next three years focusing on what we disagree with and that, instead, we get on with the work on areas on which we agree. <BR /> <BR />We are committed to working towards a solution. Executive Office officials have met junior Ministers to discuss the issues in the FICT report. The motion refers to matters relating to the report and focuses on issues that the commissioners discussed that related to flags. In 2005, the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister published the joint protocol on the display of flags in public areas, also known as the flags protocol.”
“I thank the Member for her intervention. Yes, a range of proposals is moving forward, and we will continue to engage, with the Committee for the Executive Office in particular, on the best way forward. <BR /> <BR />The trickiness and challenge in all this, of course, has been the focus on the areas where there is no consensus. Regardless of the fact that there may not have been an agreed recommendation, I suggest that everybody in the Chamber read the commission report. Mr Allister indicated that the commission produced nothing — not even a mouse. The report that I have does not squeak, but it certainly contains a huge amount of discussion and analysis, and it is absolutely worth reading to get a good sense of where we are and how it captures the complexities of and difficulties in the issues.”
“Again, it is no surprise that there are some issues on which there is not consensus. <BR /> <BR />I will give way.”
“However, it was felt strongly by those in the then Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister and agreed by the Executive that we should, at the least, try to find a way through and that there should be a mechanism and a forum — a commission — to focus on those tricky issues in order to see whether there was a way through and whether the debate could be moved forward. I am glad to say that, on many issues, it could. Recommendations were accepted, and they will move forward for implementation.”
“It was probably the trickiest and most difficult task in the decades of our recent history to address the issues that the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement, the St Andrews Agreement and many other agreements and negotiation processes could not resolve: identity; aspiration; emblems and flags; how we remember our dead; and how we respect each other in a very difficult space of tolerance and intolerance. Of course, it should come as no surprise to anyone to hear that the commission did not find consensus on every issue. Those who created the commission recognised that, in all likelihood, it would not do so.”
“In Northern Ireland, we should not focus on the small number of issues on which we fundamentally disagree, as that wastes a huge amount of time. Having listened to people, I feel strongly that they are telling us that they want us to get on with the business of government, making this place work and focusing on what we can agree on, instead of tearing each other apart on what we do not agree on. <BR /> <BR />When I look at the report from the FICT commission, I feel that it is important to acknowledge that the FICT commissioners were given an incredibly difficult task.”
“It is perhaps said too much now in politics that we have much more in common than we have that divides us, but I absolutely believe that to be true. I also believe that we have limited time and that that time can be entirely exceeded by the things that we need to do that we agree on. However, we should also acknowledge that, in Northern Ireland, in the context of our history and experience and in what we bring to the Executive and this place, there are things that we do not agree on. It is right at times that we talk about those things and try to find a way through them, but it is also right to acknowledge this absolute truth: you will not find consensus on every issue. That is the reality of life and of different political ideologies and identities.”
“Thank you for the opportunity to respond to the motion. I feel that I should take the opportunity to say, "Here we are in 2024, talking about flags because of a motion from the Alliance Party". It is, of course, a challenging and difficult issue, as it has been here for some time. The debate demonstrates some of those strongly held views. <BR /> <BR />As we have said in the Chamber many times, there are so many issues on which we have consensus, and we have so many things on that list that we need to tackle. We can tackle those issues together, and they include special educational needs, education, the needs of our schools, hospitals and roads and trying to make this place work while growing our economy and attracting good jobs and foreign direct investment. There are many things.”