Robbie Butler
Lagan Valley · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Officials highlighted that alignment was provided through existing EU-derived arrangements and that coherence with existing regulatory frameworks was identified as a main consideration.”
“I note that the Member for Strangford agrees: she understands the value of our fisheries in those areas. There are other complexities. The Isle of Man Government have now done a bit of a circle around that island, which makes it difficult for our fishers from Portavogie, Kilkeel and Portaferry to craft and graft a living from some of the…”
“The Committee took the opportunity to question officials on several issues and highlight matters warranting scrutiny at Committee Stage but was not limited to those areas.”
“As the Minister said, they have possibly been viewed as competing demands, but they are not competing demands, because clean water is part of sustainable food production.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am glad to see language in the Bill on the sustainability of the aquaculture sector, and I want to lean in a bit on that. Aquaculture pastimes have, perhaps, been underutilised, whether they relate to the angling fraternity or other river and water users.”
“Today, I want to talk about a very talented young girl from Lisburn called Freya Terris. Freya, who is 17 years old, attends Friends' School and studies the piano under former Lisburn resident Rory Dowse. Freya is an incredibly accomplished young pianist and has performed in the Ulster Hall.”
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“Like the previous Member to speak, I am a representative for Lagan Valley, but I speak on behalf of John Stewart, our infrastructure spokesperson. <BR /> <BR />Belfast is our capital city, and it is a beautiful city. I did not really look up at its beautiful buildings or recognise its lovely streets until I was in probably my 30s or 40s. Hill Street has now become pretty much its epicentre. It is well renowned not just locally but as part of our tourism offering, and it could offer much more. I welcome the Adjournment debate secured by the leader of the Opposition. In internal discussions, John pointed to the fact that he believes that it is not only long overdue but desperately needed.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Does he agree that people with disabilities and those who are in wheelchairs have to pick their routes very carefully? One of the challenges in this case is that because of the disadvantageous parking of traffic and delivery vehicles, which, for the traders, are really important, our disabled community is choosing not to utilise the area in the same manner as those who do not need walking aids or wheelchairs.”
“If inclusion is the goal, let it include everyone, and let it be done through secure electronic voting without the need for polling stations. Our role is perhaps not to shape the debate but to watch with interest.”
“I say this with no cautionary sense of humour: if the vote stretches far enough for someone such as Conor McGregor, you could find his name in a race to be president. Whatever your view of him, he is hardly the kind of calm, unifying figure that you would associate with the responsibilities of a head of state. That idea may raise eyebrows, but that is the whole point. If the question is asked, the question is asked. When you change who votes, you can change what is possible. <BR /> <BR />Let me be respectful but firm. It is not a matter for us to decide. It is a matter for the voters in the Republic and their elected representatives. However, if they proceed with it, I suggest that they think even more broadly about including the wider Irish diaspora. There are more than 100,000 Irish-born citizens in Australia alone.”
“Concerns have been raised by legislators and commentators in the Republic around the constitution, how people would register, how to verify voters who are abroad and what the political consequences would mean. Even in the Republic, the issue is far from settled. <BR /> <BR />Some have also questioned whether it makes sense to expand the vote for a role that holds limited powers. If you are not expanding what the president could do, for instance, you have to ask what you really gain by expanding who gets to choose them. It risks watering down the symbolism even further. Let us not pretend that expanding the electorate would not affect the kind of candidates who step forward. If you broaden the vote, you could also see pressure to rethink how candidates are nominated. What sorts of names would end up on that ballot paper?”
“I sense that quite a bit of emotion and history is tied up in the issue. I acknowledge that, because, as we know, in this little place that I call home, Northern Ireland, identity matters, and people across these islands feel connected in many different ways. We have to be clear at the start of the debate that deciding who votes for the president of Ireland is not a matter for the Assembly. It is a matter, first and foremost, for the Irish voters in the Republic of Ireland and, therefore, their Parliament to decide. <BR /> <BR />To be fair, as has been recognised, this is not a new debate. The issue has come up in the Dáil and the Seanad several times over this past decade. There has even been draft legislation brought forward and a commitment to a referendum, but, so far, there has been no vote.”
“The public and the public who are animal lovers expect better. More important, Max the cockapoo, Minnie the St Bernard and all our dogs and those out there that the public own and love deserve better.”
“We must finally revisit the entire dog licensing system in Northern Ireland, because responsible ownership starts with clear legal obligations, proper licensing and microchipping being consistently enforced so that we can better prevent stray dogs ending up in already overstretched pounds. To be fair to the Minister, he outlined a number of key priorities that will require some fine-tuning, one of which was Lucy's law, and the third-party sales of animals, which we really need to get to grips with. <BR /> <BR />A change in attitudes will not happen overnight, but it will not happen at all, if we do not have a more proactive and committed approach from the Department and those in the Chamber. Warm words will not save a single dog, but policy change will. Let us be clear: this is a test of our compassion and our willingness to act.”
“To improve outcomes, we need to see the proper licensing of all dog kennels and pounds, coupled with regular unannounced inspections. We must bring in a consistent standard with clear accountability that ends the postcode lottery. Councils should be required to publish regular data on their euthanasia rates and their rehoming and adoption outcomes. We cannot fix what we cannot measure. <BR /> <BR />A full review of dog control policies is overdue. That would ensure that such policies reflected modern animal welfare science and practice, not outdated or inconsistent approaches.”
“Now, people will have their views on that legislation, but I will say that councils struggle to apply the legislation because it is multilayered and not instructive enough. Unfortunately, because our animal and dog welfare legislation is not complete enough, councils then find themselves in the eye of the storm. The difficulty in that instance was that dog wardens, who were legitimately trying to do their best, had to work within the confines of legislation when they either could not see its full scope or did not understand how to fully address it.”
“<BR /> <BR />Members will know that provision by community and voluntary agencies outstrips statutory provision. We saw that very much through the COVID pandemic. There is a case of it in my constituency of Lagan Valley. The work that the rehoming charity Almost Home does out of its own pocket is phenomenal. It does not apply the same rules that we do in statutory functions such as councils. I will not be hard on councils, except to say that they struggle to interpret the legislation that has been passed over the past number of years. I will go back to a very public debate that took place in Lisburn and Castlereagh City Council, not so long ago, about a dog called Max. It was about the XL bully stuff.”
“<BR /> <BR />I put on record my party's particular thanks to the Dogs Trust NI. Every party did that. To give a sense of the scope of its work: last year, it rehomed 1,576 dogs. That was done by one voluntary charity. I also thank the USPCA for its advocacy in this space and its insistence on the priorities that needed to be captured in the motion. The Assembly must — I think that it will — commit to the highest possible standards for the welfare of dogs in Northern Ireland. We cannot justify a system that allows healthy dogs that could be rehomed to be euthanised after just five days. Dogs that demonstrably pose no risk to public safety should be at no risk, especially in council-run facilities that ought to provide protection and not premature death.”
“Whilst I accept that there have been words of encouragement from the Alliance Party and words to suggest that those points would be addressed, I ask other Members to consider what has been left out of the amendment, particularly the commitment to eradicate the five-day target that some councils have. I also challenge the Minister's point that previous legislation confers powers to councils. Every party agrees — maybe I will get to it when I pick through my notes — that the disparity of approach by different councils and the postcode lottery that exists may point to our taking that role primarily, through primary legislation and the changes that need to come from that. Regardless of whether it happens in this mandate, we need a consistent approach across all councils. That will require us, as the key legislators, to do it.”
“That is why it is important for us to talk about them. <BR /> <BR />In their input to the debate, Members have mostly been singing off the same hymn sheet. I remember the Minister saying, at the start of the mandate, that animal welfare would be one of his key priorities. As anybody who has any history here will understand, if it does not say something in a Bill, in legislation or on a piece of paper, we cannot take each other's word for it. As the Minister rightly pointed out, we have a compressed mandate. However, that, in and of itself, is no excuse for not ensuring that we put the detail down. <BR /> <BR />That is the purpose of the motion. It has five points.”
“Thank you, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. I may not use the 10 minutes. I will take the opportunity to thank each and every Member who spoke in the debate. We are definitely a nation of dog lovers. That was evident from those who spoke in this very important debate. They spoke with humanity and compassion that, sometimes, we do not show to each other. It is interesting that we can come to this point in the day and talk so eloquently about a subject that actually resonates with many of our constituents out there. I am not sure whether Members are aware of that, and it may be useful when it comes round to elections, but it is evidence that we are genuinely a nation of dog lovers. You see how news reports feed off instances and acts of animal cruelty. Those news items are often at the top of news cycles.”
“I thank the Minister for recognising that uptake of the scheme has reduced. The dairy industry and, indeed, the scheme suffer from insidious advertising by groups such as Viva!, one of the leading vegan charities, which launched a video entitled 'Dairy is Scary'. Will the Minister join me in condemning such applications of advertising, and outline what steps the Department is going to take to promote milk as a healthy food supplement?”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. I will not take the ball that wants to be hit there and go full Father Ted, because it is an important topic. Since I tabled the question, there have been a number of break-ins and burglaries in Lagan Valley in and around Hillsborough. I also know that it is a seasonal occurrence. Can the Minister outline any increased involvement that she or the police have had on the rural impact assessment, and will she comment on the fact that, as the days get longer and people take to their caravans in the spring and summer, thieves and burglars see that as an opportunity to exploit empty houses?”
“I will let you off with that one, Mr Speaker. Thank you very much. <BR /> <BR />I thank the First Minister for her answer. She will, I am sure, agree with me that businesses have had to bear, through the Windsor framework, the pressures of Brexit and getting their duties paid back through the HMRC reimbursement scheme and the customs duty waiver scheme. The Secretary of State said that that might be the recourse for businesses if the tariffs apply in Northern Ireland. Does the Minister agree that that is not a good or useful tool to use and that businesses without money for up to three months are put under undue pressure? Has the Executive Office been involved in any conversations in that regard?”
“If he had left a message before he died, I believe that it would have been not to mourn his death but to learn from his example of humility and humanity. Our thoughts are with the people who will miss him: his family, his colleagues and those in the Catholic Church.”
“Of course, there was his warmth, whether when kissing babies or — it is an image that really sits with me; I saw it at the weekend and had not seen it before — when a young girl with Down's syndrome made her way up to the altar and, instead of her being shooed away, he took that little girl's hand and gave his message holding her hand. <BR /> <BR />He was one for taking selfies, and he always spoke from the heart: one might think that he would have made a great MLA. He made the Church feel closer to the people. As was mentioned, for people on this island, particularly those whose lives were irrevocably changed by what the Church did not do to protect them, he sought to make a change. He rightly earned the title "the People's Pope".”
“Whether you agree with the theology or not, the example that Pope Francis set was unquestionably good. <BR /> <BR />He was a different Pope, as was obvious from when he started. Why was he different? He chose to live simply by swapping the grand apostolic palace for a modest guest house; by driving small cars, as Mike Nesbitt mentioned; and even by carrying his own bags. It was clear that he was not about show; he was about service. His heart, as others have outlined today, was always with those on the edges. He made it his mission to reach out to the poor, the migrants and the forgotten. He visited slums, prisons and refugee camps. His vision of a Church for the poor moved the focus away from strict rules towards one of true faith and of mercy.”
“This is not to be irreverent but, given the complexity of the island that we are from, I will go back to something that happened at that meeting. It was an extraordinary event. Leo Varadkar, the Taoiseach at the time, and the Pope walked from one end of Dublin Castle to the other to take their seats at the front of a packed hall. I have been a person of faith for many years, and I was interested in how the event would go. This is the truth: an incredible beam of light came through a window and right on to Pope Francis. Given the theological background that I come from, that challenged me in a way that made me smile. One of the things that Pope Francis demonstrated was that it is not about religion; it is about faith. We have wrestled with that for too many years in this country.”
“I will always be thankful for his visit to Dublin in 2018 and the chance that I had to attend the World Meeting of Families. It is a memory that will stay with me.”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker, for convening this very important moment in the Assembly. I do not think that there are many in Northern Ireland or across the world who will not remember Pope Francis with deep gratitude.”
“I hope that, even after the debate tonight, we will be focused on bringing immediate respite to those who need it desperately.”
“As a society, we have become desperately busy, and, arguably, we maybe chase the wrong things at times instead of prioritising what will impact on us in the future right across Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />The other thing that strikes me is that we have an ageing population, and we may face difficulties in the future because of the workforce pressures that come with that. As mentioned by Mr Honeyford, in particular, parents who are elderly may be looking after children who are quite elderly and facing challenges. <BR /> <BR />We need a major shift in how we approach everything to do with disability and learning disability. Future debates on the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities (UNCRPD), in particular, could be very useful in helping us to shape our legislative intent and ambition.”
“That is entirely appropriate, and I absolutely agree with some of the comments. We need to ensure that the families get that respite. We need, however, to achieve a massive culture shift when it comes to all things pertaining to learning disability and disability. <BR /> <BR />What do I mean by that? I will set the tone, if you like, by referring to problems that we also face in getting respite care and homes for children who are looked after. It is not just in learning disability and disability where there is a backlog. There are almost 5,000 children in care. There is a shortage of the foster carers and respite homes needed to help all our children.”
“Having met officials, professionals and politicians, it strikes me that we all want the same thing, but there is something quite wrong in the system that we have developed over the years: our approach to how we share the ambition for people with disabilities and learning disability. We work with their families across every statutory agency, and, only a couple of years ago, we faced down the challenges faced by families who were waiting lengthy times for a statement or a report on their children so that they could access adequate education in our schools, and it is sad to see that played out in other spheres, including Health. To be fair to the Minister, he has already stepped up to the mark in that regard. <BR /> <BR />That is what we can do in the intervention phase, guys.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for allowing me in. I thank the Member for Lagan Valley for securing an Adjournment debate on such an important subject. Like the Members from Lagan Valley who have so eloquently made their case, I have represented constituents from across Lagan Valley who have found challenges, not just since COVID but probably from further back. <BR /> <BR />I will not cover too much ground that has already been covered, other than, perhaps, to offer a challenge to all of us. As you know — I often talk about it — I chair the all-party group (APG) on disability. For quite a while, I have also been a member of the all-party group on learning disability.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. One of the things that we in the AERA Committee have been looking at is project overruns in time and cost. Does the Member agree that a considerable amount of work needs to be done to ensure that government projects are looked at through a more forensic lens and that we get that value for money and delivery on time?”
“<BR /> <BR />The Committee has also voiced concerns over cuts to discretionary spend, as those areas are often where a good impact can be made on public well-being, such as access to nature and rural support initiatives, but such areas are often the easiest from which to cut funding. At a recent visit to the Agri-Food and Biosciences Institute (AFBI) in Hillsborough —.”
“For example, Farming with Nature, which is due to launch later this year, has a capital allocation of £4·8 million, while the tackling rural poverty and social isolation (TRPSI) framework has been allocated around £4 million. We have continued our programme of external meetings in order to hear from stakeholders about the impact of funding shortfalls. The Committee believes that those meetings are incredibly important. For example, we have heard from the RSPB about the shortfalls for nature restoration and from rural partnership groups and rural support networks about the historical underinvestment in rural women and about the loss of rural transport.”
“The main capital expenditure is £5·5 million for phase 2 of the sustainable use of slurry project and £3·5 million for digital transformation projects across a range of relevant business areas. The Committee was also concerned about a lack of allocations for avian influenza and bluetongue outbreaks. That is of immediate concern to the Committee owing to the recent, highly publicised incursions of highly pathogenic avian influenza (HPAI) at a number of premises. <BR /> <BR />The Committee has consistently highlighted the need for significant just transition funding. It is pleased to see an Executive-earmarked allocation for the just transition fund for agriculture of £12·3 million. The Committee has since scrutinised that specific set of funds more closely and focused on a number of capital allocations in particular.”
“We scrutinised the allocation of capital funding of £12·8 million and the shortfall in resource funding, which has led to three of the actions in the Lough Neagh plan not being taken forward as planned. One is action 17, which was to:”
“In the 2023-24 financial year, the total DAERA bovine TB programme expenditure was £55·7 million, which represented an increase of 39% since 2020-21. The compensation costs alone were £36·5 million in 2023-24. Compensation for 2024-25 was projected to be almost £42 million at the time that we reported on the draft Budget. It is now projected to be £46·5 million for 2025-26. The Committee shares the Minister's hopes that the most recent review of bovine tuberculosis and the establishment of the TB partnership steering group will be a turning point. <BR /> <BR />On 6 March, we received a briefing paper from the project manager who is tasked with implementing the Lough Neagh plan.”
“The Committee is, however, concerned about the disparity between the resource DEL bids and the allocations for specific statutory functions and projects, which range from as little as one sixth to around half of what was bid for. For example, the bovine TB programme delivery bid was £24 million, but only £6·8 million was able to be allocated. A bid of £11·5 million was submitted for delivery of the environmental improvement plan, which includes Lough Neagh, but only £6·8 million was allocated. There is therefore a quantifiable risk. <BR /> <BR />The Committee remains concerned that the trajectory of bovine TB remains upwards, with the resulting escalating costs of the bovine tuberculosis programme, which include compensation, heading on a similar trajectory.”
“<BR /> <BR />At its meeting on 6 February, the Committee held an evidence session with officials and heard that only £15·7 million of resource departmental expenditure limit (DEL) was allocated, compared with bids totalling £50·9 million against the opening 2024-25 position, which explains some of the difficulties. The Committee heard that DAERA had submitted bids to the Department of Finance totalling £179·2 million of capital DEL from a zero base against the proposed allocation of £119·5 million. We will have the Minister before us this week to discuss delivery of DAERA's corporate plan, and the difficult budget position will no doubt be discussed further. <BR /> <BR />The Committee is pleased that the Executive agreed to earmark resource DEL of over £300 million for agriculture, agrienvironment, fisheries and rural development.”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak on behalf of the Committee for Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs about our report on the draft Budget for 2025-26. I thank the Committee for Finance for coordinating reports from the Committees. I will make a few overarching comments before highlighting some details in the Committee report. <BR /> <BR />The Committee hopes that the Budget will in future be linked to the Programme for Government, and recognises that 2025-26 will not see us receive the levels of Barnett consequentials of 2024-25. DAERA places significant reliance on in-year monitoring rounds and consequentials to fund statutory duties, such as bovine TB compensation. The Committee takes comfort from the fact that the additional consequentials were at least baselined, however.”
“The Member's strategy is simply to do nothing. We can do something, but his strategy is to do nothing. What sort of politics is that?”
“On the Northern Ireland-specific facts, we have a stand-alone Fire and Rescue Service. It is unique on these islands. Every Fire and Rescue Service in England, Scotland and Wales relies on the support of other services. We do not: we have a stand-alone service. When we have a spate of such incidents, therefore, which are happening with greater regularity and ferocity because — this is unarguable — of climate change, why would we not use the data that we have, which is our data, and respond accordingly to protect our environment?”
“Part of that is about protecting our environment and heritage, not to mention the impact on our wildlife. <BR /> <BR />I do not want to demonise anyone, but we need to get on with this at pace.”
“I thank the Member for his input. Fiscal appropriation should be the concern of all the Ministries, Departments and Members here. I have no issue with that. <BR /> <BR />In reality, what we have faced over the past couple of weeks — we have all spoken about it and made comment on it — is avoidable. Some Members have said that the burning was deliberate, but we can embark on a package of work, and the Climate Commissioner and the commission can play a specific role in that. Why would that be important to Northern Ireland? It is because Northern Ireland should set the standard for everything. We should not be behind the eight ball when it comes to protecting and cherishing our environment and being the lead voice in making Northern Ireland the place that it should be.”
“I thank the Member; she has put her points on the record. I agree with the first part of what she said. There are legitimate reasons why people should question when we spend £1 million on setting up an agency. We do not want a body, whether it is arm's-length or totally independent, to be without function or purpose and not have deliverables. The outcomes will be really important, but the impacts are on our communities. In the Mournes, for example, cover is provided by retained firefighters. There are no full-time fire stations there. Those firefighters are men and women who are pulled out of their everyday jobs to spend 16 or 18 hours up a mountain. That has impacts on their families and the businesses in the area. Those impacts are probably not even captured. I am going to let Mr Blair in.”
“I thank the Member for raising that. One of the things that I am frustrated about at the moment is that while, to his credit, in 2021 the then Minister, Mr Poots, embarked on a strategy for tackling those types of incidents, that piece of work, unfortunately, has still not seen the light of day. I do not know whether that is down to political failure. We need to get to the bottom of that to find out why we have not —. I will give way.”
“At this point, to be fair, it is right to be fiscally appropriate and the DUP has centred on the figure of £1 million. I think that Mr Carroll had asked for an intervention first.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. The Member has put his point on the record. Equally, I have set out why it would be penny wise and pound foolish to suggest such a thing. The Member will understand that that £1 million is set aside for this purpose. It is not something that a Minister can bid for and then allow to be traded off. <BR /> <BR />Wildfires are avoidable. They may be, and predominantly are, set deliberately. However, the reality is that because of climate change, the fire loading in those mountains and grassland areas is significantly worse than it was 20, 25 or 30 years ago. I am glad that the Member has put on the record that this is not about climate denial. I hope that other Members will speak to that.”
“Give me one second. I am very popular today. One wee second. I will let you in, because it is genuinely important to talk about the issue. <BR /> <BR />It is probably £1 million per week, and there is another cost that nobody has mentioned today, especially when the fire is in the Mournes. There are two dams in the Mournes that supply our drinking water. How much does it cost to clean that water after a fire? After the last burn, it cost £890,000 to clean the drinking water. We have to be fiscally appropriate, but let us talk about all the costs.”
“I will let you in in a wee second. <BR /> <BR />One week of wildfires in Northern Ireland costs more than £1 million. Just for that week, not for the reparation, not for fixing back or building back. What else happens in that week when we spend at least £1 million on a major incident? We put people's lives at risk.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. I absolutely agree. <BR /> <BR />I will set a bit more of the context. Why do I think that this is absolutely necessary? For five years out of the past eight, we did not have any ministerial lead on anything in this country for health, education, wildfires or the climate. Let us not lose sight of ourselves here, guys. People are going to put their trust in us. Do we deserve it? No, we do not. We have no stability or credibility, and that is what we are trying to achieve. We are looking at a body that will still be created, that we can still speak to and that we can still change. But let me tell you this —.”
“<BR /> <BR />Let me give you some testimony and background to show why this is important to me. When I joined the Fire Brigade in 2000, for the first four or five years, I probably dealt with three or four grass or gorse fires in that time. There were no major or significant incidents. The fires happened in small numbers. Since that time, worldwide, probably led most effectively in Spain, but we have spoken into it for quite a few years now, is the growing propensity, risk and cost of wildfires in Northern Ireland.”