Robbie Butler
Lagan Valley · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Officials highlighted that alignment was provided through existing EU-derived arrangements and that coherence with existing regulatory frameworks was identified as a main consideration.”
“I note that the Member for Strangford agrees: she understands the value of our fisheries in those areas. There are other complexities. The Isle of Man Government have now done a bit of a circle around that island, which makes it difficult for our fishers from Portavogie, Kilkeel and Portaferry to craft and graft a living from some of the…”
“The Committee took the opportunity to question officials on several issues and highlight matters warranting scrutiny at Committee Stage but was not limited to those areas.”
“As the Minister said, they have possibly been viewed as competing demands, but they are not competing demands, because clean water is part of sustainable food production.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am glad to see language in the Bill on the sustainability of the aquaculture sector, and I want to lean in a bit on that. Aquaculture pastimes have, perhaps, been underutilised, whether they relate to the angling fraternity or other river and water users.”
“Today, I want to talk about a very talented young girl from Lisburn called Freya Terris. Freya, who is 17 years old, attends Friends' School and studies the piano under former Lisburn resident Rory Dowse. Freya is an incredibly accomplished young pianist and has performed in the Ulster Hall.”
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“Those views ranged from the majority of members feeling that a return to the previous penalty regime was too draconian, given the challenges now faced by farmers, to a member expressing the need for increased penalties if we are to be serious about tackling environmental challenges. Some Committee members raised concerns that the SR would increase penalties for minor breaches and that penalties were currently enough, given the many challenges facing family farmers and farmers across Northern Ireland. Concerns were expressed about the definition of breaches and how and when any repetitions of minor breaches became classed as "intentional" breaches. However, support was also voiced for higher penalties for intentional or repeated careless environmental breaches, and it is important to highlight that.”
“We also considered that regulation 4 of SR 2023/210 removed the requirement to increase the number of on-the-spot checks for any act or standard revealing a significant degree of non-compliance. Officials highlighted the need for the SR that we are considering today as being connected to water quality and environmental concerns and the fact that the Minister, having considered the current environmental conditions and protections in place, considered it appropriate to revert to the original penalty regime as a detriment to those who do not comply with cross-compliance verifiable standards on a recurring basis. <BR /> <BR />After the briefing by the DAERA officials, there was a robust question-and-answer session, and Committee members expressed a range of views.”
“The Committee noted that the environmental farming scheme drew down EU funds from the rural development programme (RDP) and was subject to EU rules until the completion of the EU spending in 2023. The application of penalties for the environmental farming scheme and other former development programme schemes were aligned with direct payments through SR 2023/210 from 1 January 2024.”
“That meant that such breaches were regarded as negligent only, and penalties on repetition were kept, at that stage, at 15%. Secondly, the officials advised us that the SR also removes the provision SR 20233/210, which is the Direct Payments to Farmers (Cross-Compliance) (Amendment) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2023.”
“Thank you, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. I rise to speak on behalf of the Committee for Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs and to move the motion. At the Committee meeting on 28 November, officials briefed the Committee on statutory rule (SR) 2024/211, which is the Direct Payments to Farmers (Cross-Compliance) (Amendment) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2024. Officials stated that the SR will remove provisions that were made under two previous SRs. <BR /> <BR />First, the SR removes the provision in SR 2022/240, which is the Direct Payments to Farmers (Cross-Compliance) (Amendment) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2022, that removed the automatic application of intentional penalties to certain repeated non-compliances for the purposes of nationally funded area-based schemes.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. MLAs' pay is obviously a prickly subject, and one that will pique the public's interest. As a former member of the Commission, I am happy to put on record the fact that, on multiple occasions, the Commission decided not to move on something that would have been difficult for us to debate. Furthermore, the Commission has been operating outside its vires. The legislative provision meant that we should have had a panel in place years ago to address the matter. The Commission chose not to do that because it understood the sensitivities involved. The allegations that have been thrown around today are absolutely baseless. I am happy to support the Commission in that regard.”
“<BR /> <BR />The motion has no financial implications, as it does not alter the allowances that are paid. As a former member of the Commission, I commend it and the audit team for the work that they do. However, it is a reality that it is up to us, as individual Members with responsibilities, to ensure that we operate within the confines, rules and regulations of that which is laid down. <BR /> <BR />The Ulster Unionist Party welcomes the Commission motion.”
“I will find the right words. I have come down without paper. <BR /> <BR />As has been said, the motion is technical in nature but is consistent with previous Assembly decisions. It would not introduce any changes to Members' or former Members' allowances; such changes would require a subsequent determination by the Assembly Commission. That is in line with previous decisions taken by the House, as the proposer of the motion outlined. <BR /> <BR />The motion will ensure that the Assembly Commission has the authority to determine allowances for former Members, in particular winding-up and resettlement allowances. That was not done in the June 2020 determination process, which made no changes relating to former Members, so this is about redressing the imbalance.”
“I mean this very respectfully: some members of the Alliance Party do hold constitutional views. In fact, the late Anna Lo was not shy about sharing hers. She was commended by Kate Nicholl, because she was seen as being very brave for having shared that.”
“We know that the Minister of Health made a bid to the Executive for reintroduction of the cross-border reimbursement scheme, but, unfortunately, that did not get Executive support. That could make a fundamental difference to people's lives by driving down waiting lists. <BR /> <BR />This is a good enough topic for the SDLP to bring for debate. There is a long way to travel before it is exploited and expanded any further. I hope that some of the things that I said have registered with certain ears.”
“I have no issue with that. However, we have serious issues at hand in this Government. One of the things that concern me about Sinn Féin — I do not mean to focus on you guys — is that you sit in opposition in the South and in government in the North. When you criticise what is happening in the South, it is hard to see why it would be of any benefit to collaborate on some issues. <BR /> <BR />Now, there are areas in which collaboration is absolutely good, right and proper and has been shown to have value: tourism, for instance. I used to work in the Fire and Rescue Service, where there was cross-border cooperation and memorandums of understanding to allow services with very different configurations to operate well together. Certainly, more can be done.”
“<BR /> <BR />When Declan Kearney from Sinn Féin spoke — I am not criticising Declan for it, because his republican credentials are there for everybody to see every time he speaks — we heard how he sees this very much as another opportunity to advance the united Ireland project. As a unionist with huge ambitions for Northern Ireland and these islands, I think that that might be at the core of the drive. We have achieved much in the 27 years since the Good Friday Agreement, but could we do better? <BR /> <BR />The North/South Ministerial Council met over the border just before Christmas. We discussed issues including perinatal mental health and childcare. Our compatriots in the South share similar frustrations to those that we experience. I will be honest and say that it was a good forum, where we could share experiences.”
“The SDLP tabled the motion as an Opposition debate, but it is similar to the earlier motions in that, from my perspective and that of my party, it lacks a little detail in what it sets out. It is right to point to the North/South Ministerial Council and some of its failings. It has not met as it should have done, but, when it does, it is the correct vehicle for better cooperation on the island. <BR /> <BR />I am not sure what David Honeyford meant when he described the divisions that still exist. Are you talking about divisions North/South or in the Chamber? Having met many Southern counterparts from the Government that went out and the Government that is now in, I am not aware that there is that much of a rub between us; there is more of a rub in this House.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. It is good to hear that the Member's leader has written to the British and Irish Governments, but, as I pointed out, the Belfast Agreement was mandated by the people of Northern Ireland. They are the people who should decide. Does the Member not agree?”
“I thank the Minister for her interest in the Prison Service. She is right to say that recruitment is often oversubscribed, but staff retention is incredibly difficult. I contend that one of the reasons for that is the circumstances that are held in the Civil Service staff handbook. The Department of Finance has said that it is no longer appropriate for those details to be held in the Civil Service handbook. Does the Minister of Justice agree?”
“In proposing the amendment, the Member for Lagan Valley admitted to it being a bit of a wish list from the Alliance Party's asks. From the New Decade, New Approach negotiations and subsequent talks that I have been involved in, the party to my left will know how difficult it is to get those things over the line. If we are to get them over the line, we will need the will of the people, not just the will of the people in the Chamber.”
“One second, please. <BR /> <BR />The Ulster Unionist Party stands ready to work constructively for a Northern Ireland that governs effectively, that delivers for all and that earns back the trust of the people. I will let the Member come in very briefly, because I will get no additional time.”
“It must be rooted in public trust. The Ulster Unionist Party stands ready to work constructively —.”
“Five years out of the past nine without a functioning Government has left Northern Ireland's health service in crisis, our education system under strain and our public services starved of direction. That must never happen again. <BR /> <BR />We welcome the call in the motion for a firm commitment from the First Minister and deputy First Minister not to collapse the Assembly. The people of Northern Ireland deserve stability, not political brinkmanship, but let me go further. If we are to talk about real reform, let us commit to ensuring that any substantive change has, like the Belfast Agreement, the confidence of the people whom we serve. Let us put any significant proposals to the people of Northern Ireland, because political stability cannot be built on deals done behind closed doors or on a political wish list from the Alliance Party.”
“<BR /> <BR />Review and improvement should always be at the heart of good governance, but let us not pretend that all so-called reforms have served the people well. The changes made at St Andrews and at Stormont House stripped away much of the original spirit of the Good Friday/Belfast Agreement, replacing it with some siloed political ambition. Those changes rubber-stamped the dominance of Sinn Féin and the DUP, which, despite Mr Harvey's contention, has led to stagnation and a lack of progress. The motion, while well-intentioned, does not tell the full story. Yes, there is no doubt that the Executive are struggling, but much of that is down to the fact that, yet again, we are operating within a compressed legislative time frame.”
“The Ulster Unionist Party has an unwavering commitment to ensuring that Northern Ireland has stable and credible government. That is not in question. At a time when we were emerging from a dark and challenging period in our history, the Belfast Agreement was a seismic shift for the people of this special part of the United Kingdom and, indeed, the island of Ireland. It was built on generosity, compromise and the fundamental belief that democracy should work for all. We must also acknowledge that it is now 2025 and we have not travelled as far as we should have done, but we need to be clear that we are not where we once were. Progress has been made, and, while challenges remain, we must move forward with determination and vision.”
“Advice from Sinn Féin was given to the British Heart Foundation on its responsibility to carry out pre-employment checks, yet similar due diligence appears to be lacking on Sinn Féin's part. Is it a case of, "Do as we say, not as we do"? <BR /> <BR />While progress has been made, the debate reminds us that systems of monitoring and compliance must evolve continuously. Let us learn from the review, strengthen processes and deliver the accountability that the public rightly expect.”
“The public have a right to know the outcomes of those investigations, as do Members who play by the rules. Furthermore, the motion highlights discrepancies between media reporting and the conclusions of the review regarding Michael McMonagle's case. That is a particularly serious matter. If the report's findings are accurate, there is arguably an onus on the First Minister to correct the Assembly record, because transparency demands no less. <BR /> <BR />I cannot ignore the irony of Sinn Féin's approach to the early activities in and genesis of the story, which was initially on a safeguarding issue regarding young people. That leads us to this very moment.”
“Proposals such as keeping detailed records of party political activity by Members' employees, revising job descriptions and requiring declarations of other publicly funded employment are necessary measures and will provide greater oversight and transparency. Those steps are essential in helping to rebuild the public trust that I alluded to and ensuring that allowances are used solely for the purposes for which they are intended. <BR /> <BR />The review's findings, however, raise questions about whether enough has been done to fully investigate potential breaches and ensure that lessons are learned. I urge the Assembly Commission to provide an update on the reports made to the Comptroller and Auditor General and the PSNI under the Commission's fraud prevention and anti-bribery policy.”
“That part of the motion is slightly misleading, because a robust audit schedule is in place, with regular reviews that monitor compliance. To claim otherwise would undermine the hard work that is already carried out by the Assembly Commission and the independent auditing teams that provide that service. That said, we should always strive to strengthen those processes when such issues arise, as evidenced by what has transpired and the need for the debate. In that context, I welcome the fact that Mr Gaston has tabled the motion, and I think that some good will come of it. <BR /> <BR />I welcome aspects of the Commission's review and recommendations, particularly those focused on increasing accountability: no one should be afraid of that.”
“I rise to speak to this important motion and to recognise and encourage the wider Assembly's ongoing commitment to transparency and accountability. The review of allowances became an essential and critical step in trying to restore public confidence in how taxpayers' money is spent by this institution. Let us be honest: given that we were not here for five years out of eight, we have a job on our hands. Whilst I agree with most of the elements of the motion, as a former and recent Commission member, I must also highlight areas where clarity is needed and where progress has already been made. <BR /> <BR />The motion suggests a lack of audits under the determination and the financial assistance for political parties scheme, otherwise known as "FAPP".”
“I thank the Member for giving way and for his absolute and very honest interest in the subject. On the matter that the Member is speaking about, does he agree that it is really disappointing to see comedians and some of our richest sports stars, among them former Liverpool and Spurs players, contributing to advertising schemes? That just plays to the younger generation, which is looking at those really successful people and thinking that perhaps gambling is the way to get there.”
“I do indeed. We have touched on something that is really important to get right. I agree that free spins are being deliberately pushed. The software in our phones is incredibly intuitive. It will spot the person who is looking at things for a wee bit longer, and I think that that is called microtargeting. For our land-based organisations, we can more easily monitor that. That is why we need to get the balance right in all the legislative approaches that are taken, whether in this House or in Westminster. The worst thing that we can do is to drive gambling underground, where it will be done in the dark, in the middle of the night, at a time that people will be at greatest risk.”
“One study found that the largest betting operators in the UK — Betfred, Bet365, Coral, Flutter, Paddy Power, Ladbrokes and a group called Entain — posted almost 20,000 tweets in eight months in 2019, which is an average of 80 a day. Elon Musk is giving them a run for their money. I had never heard of Entain, so I googled it to see what it is and what it had done. In 2022, it was fined £17 million. If it could be fined £17 million, I suggest that that fine was probably a small percentage of what it was making off the back of people across the UK. To me, that is indicative of the harm that is being inflicted on people who suffer with a gambling addiction.”
“Since I bought that ticket, every single day, my phone has been hammered with text messages and emails. I am not against gambling, but we need to get ahead of this curve. That is why, when we are having these debates, we need to remember that the leader of the Opposition was absolutely right: debates such as the earlier debate and this one need to be better linked. We need to get serious about this. There is stuff that we can do in the House and there is stuff that needs to be done at Westminster. <BR /> <BR />Studies have shown that the large gambling operators have substantial numbers of followers — unfortunately I have inadvertently found myself to be one of them through buying something as a present — and that they engage in regular activity on social media accounts.”
“<BR /> <BR />We have also been told about so-called covert marketing whereby electronic and continuous forms of gambling — those are highly addictive, amongst the most harmful and are embedded in sports gambling — are cross-sold from lower-risk forms of gambling. Future gambling policy here should not focus solely on treating the individuals who have experienced harm but on regulating the availability and accessibility of the products at the root of that harm. <BR /> <BR />I am not sure whether Members have experienced the same thing as I have. At Christmas, I bought someone a present of a ticket from one of our local firms that offers prizes of houses, villas in Spain, a quarter of a million pounds and £300,000. I will be honest: I am not an abolitionist, and I bought a ticket.”
“That can have a cyclical effect: people at greatest risk of harm are more likely to stay up late, and, as a result, they are sleep-deprived and likely to gamble even more. Therefore, the APG has recommended that the Executive consider restricting access to remote gambling sites between the hours of 12.00 am and 5.00 am, which is in line with the land-based sector and with restrictions on the sale of alcohol. That goes back to my previous point: if we just restrict the land-based institutions, which can have eyes on people who want to gamble, we further expand the online sector, which is exploding in front of our eyes.”
“The Member's points are really well made, but, in trying to understand the complexity of gambling, I have a personal fear that going for the easy-to-get pieces, such as the land-based gambling institutions, perhaps, and making it harder for them to provide a service, would drive more people towards under-regulated online provision. It is a good point, and legislation in all Houses is needed. <BR /> <BR />We heard from the Royal Society for Public Health that people with online gambling problems are more likely to place bets between the hours of midnight and 4.00 am and that sleep deprivation makes people pursue bigger risks and give less consideration to negative consequences.”
“The rise of online gambling has given people 24-hour access to gambling products. The APG has heard from those involved in the treatment of gambling disorder, who noted that the greater the availability and accessibility of gambling and the more that it is advertised, the higher the consumption and the greater the harm. Whilst that sounds quite obvious, it is important —.”
“Before I start my speech, I want to recognise the hard work of the Members who are part of the APG and are regular and faithful attendees. The work that has been completed there is exceptional. It has a devoted core of members, but I pay tribute to Philip in particular for expressing today some of his personal testimony of the impact that gambling can have on individuals and their families. I also want to read into the record our thanks to Peter and Sadie Keogh in particular. We have had numerous testimonies, to be fair, but, almost without fear of being contradicted, I think that Peter and Sadie have attended every APG meeting, and they have certainly attended all of our events. <BR /> <BR />I want to speak about the availability and accessibility of gambling products.”
“<BR /> <BR />Members noted that, on 2 December, the SI was simultaneously laid under the affirmative resolution procedure in each House of the UK Parliament, the Northern Ireland Assembly, the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Senedd under schedule 3 to the Climate Change Act 2008 as an Order in Council for approval in each legislature. The Committee was content to note that, subject to the outcomes of debates that are to be held in all other UK legislatures, the SI will come into force on 1 March. <BR /> <BR />The Committee agrees to the recommendation that the draft Greenhouse Gas Emissions Trading Scheme (Amendment) Order 2025 be approved by the Assembly.”
“Technical change 1, which is on the treatment of permanent cessations, will allow the UK ETS Authority to consider, when the closure of an installation is due to significant decarbonisation investment, whether that full free allocation entitlement could be retained for the purpose of supporting decarbonisation. With technical change 2, the definition of permanent cessations is to be updated to remove the reference to a situation in which it is "technically impossible to resume operation", which can be difficult for regulators to determine — and for me to say. Instead, it refers to the permanent cessation of activity.”
“<BR /> <BR />At our meeting on 12 December, Committee members considered further correspondence from DAERA, dated 20 November, advising that Minister Muir had given consent for the two proposed amendments that would address the permanent cessation proposals to be enacted through draft legislation amending the Greenhouse Gas Emissions Training Scheme Order 2020. The Committee noted that the draft SI introduces those two technical changes, which relate to the treatment and definition of stationary installations that permanently cease to undertake an activity that was once regulated by the scheme. <BR /> <BR />The Committee considered the detail of both technical changes.”
“They are to eliminate the perverse incentive whereby an operator can receive an excess of free allowances in their final year of operation, which they could then sell on the market to their benefit; and to address challenges that regulators face in interpreting and applying the permanent cessation definitions, with the UK ETS regulator in Northern Ireland being the chief inspector of the Northern Ireland Environmental Agency (NIEA). The Committee noted that no wider market impacts or risks were considered likely as a result of the two proposed technical changes.”
“At its meeting on 28 November, the Committee considered correspondence from DAERA, dated 19 November, that gave us notification of the publication of the UK ETS Authority's response to a consultation on the free allocation of UK ETS allowances — the free allocation review, otherwise known as FAR 2 — which addresses two permanent cessation proposals that are planned for implementation in the 2025 scheme. The Minister mentioned the proposals, but I will put them on record.”
“<BR /> <BR />Members were keen to understand the operation and governance of the scheme by the UK ETS Authority, including some of the specifics to Northern Ireland. More recently, at its meeting on 12 December, the Committee received an oral briefing on the ETS common framework. It noted that the aim of the UK-wide system was to create a larger carbon market with greater liquidity and a consistent carbon price across the UK, and that that increased the opportunity for emissions reductions and the cost-effectiveness of emissions trading. <BR /> <BR />The history of the SI with the AERA Committee is as follows.”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. This is the stuff that you are interested in. <BR /> <BR />The Committee for Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs has devoted considerable time to increasing its knowledge of the UK greenhouse gas emissions trading scheme, otherwise known at the UK ETS. The Committee received its first oral briefing from DAERA officials on the operation of the UK ETS on 18 April 2024. We heard that the Greenhouse Gas Emissions Trading Scheme Order 2020 provided the legislative basis for the UK ETS. Committee members were told that the UK ETS, which was established in January 2021, is an effective decarbonisation scheme, with the aim of promoting carbon emissions reductions and incentivising investment in clean, low-carbon technologies.”
“Mr Speaker, I apologise for being a minute late to the debate. The irony is that I read your statement from this morning about being on time and being well dressed, so I made sure that I had a tie on as I was running down the stairs. I could not help but wonder what a young Edwin Poots would think of the older Edwin Poots with his statements, but I thank you for your indulgence.”
“They are part of the family fabric. Farmers are under great pressure. We are in a phase now where further paralysis by analysis is just heaping more hurt and harm on our farming community, which is under significant pressure, given what is coming at it from Westminster. <BR /> <BR />I speak on behalf of farmers in my constituency, who care about animal welfare. By the way, the farmer was not calling for an all-out cull. He understands the animal welfare aspect. However, we are out of kilter, out of balance. The Department and the Minister really need to get over the analysis stage and get to a stage where we can redefine that balance not just for our wildlife but for farm animals and our farmers.”
“Nothing good can be done with it. It has to be squirrelled away somewhere, but, obviously, the toxicity of that milk in the environment has to be considered. <BR /> <BR />That farmer is practically on his knees this morning. We have been having the discussion for many years about badgers and cattle. He said that we just do not have the balance right. Farmers often feel that they are discredited in regard to how they feel about their animals. Animal welfare features highly in their priorities. They love their cows. The daughters of that gentleman have named most of the cows, because they are from a breeding herd. <BR /> <BR />The financial implications reach further than what the Department can do by way of paying out money for those cows. The farmer has to feed them every day. Knowing that they are to be destroyed, he has to look at them.”
“Mr Speaker, on my way to the Chamber, I spent the last 20 minutes on a phone call with a constituent who raised a serious issue that has been around for many years. It is one that you are well aware of: what we are doing about TB in cattle. In November last year, the Minister brought out a review of the review, and we are in a stage of paralysis by analysis. <BR /> <BR />The constituent whom I spoke to this morning has 70 cows that have been identified as having TB. The direction from the Department is that those animals will have to be destroyed at a time of its convenience. The reality for that farmer is that he feeds those cows every day. The cows need to be milked every day, producing thousands of litres of milk that have to be destroyed. It occurred to me that, in getting rid of that milk, there is an environmental impact.”
“There is certainly merit in, and I understand why parents will opt for, what has been measured as being the slightly more environmentally unfriendly disposable nappies, but there is the pressure of convenience to attest to as well. We know that, in the UK, around 3·6 billion nappies are disposed of annually, with around 22% ending up in landfill. We need to tackle that and do something different. Addressing this often messy issue is not optional: it is essential to protecting our environment. As the mover of the amendment said, we could move collegiately, collaboratively and decisively to deliver a strategy that works for households, councils and, importantly, our planet.”
“The Northern Ireland Audit Office review of waste management reminds us of the inefficiencies in our existing system. Tackling residual waste from nappies requires leadership, innovation and collaboration. We should look across other jurisdictions, including the EU and its push for ambitious strategies on single-use menstrual products, nappies and wet wipes, to inform our approach here in Northern Ireland. While I acknowledge the role of local councils, I believe that it is the Minister who must lead in addressing the issue, ensuring that resources, guidance and best practice are made available. <BR /> <BR />With five children of my own, and having fostered quite a few nappy-wearing infants, I have experience of the convenience of disposable nappies and of the task of using terry towelling and safety pins.”
“However, we must ensure that those efforts reflect the broader challenges facing climate action and the circular economy.”
“That would align efforts to support local authorities in recycling the products without explicitly demanding a separate strategy. <BR /> <BR />Both approaches underscore the need for urgent action, recognising that a nappy collection scheme could significantly contribute to meeting, as mentioned, 74% of the 2030 recycling target, which is set out in the Climate Change Act (Northern Ireland) 2022.”