Robbie Butler
Lagan Valley · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Officials highlighted that alignment was provided through existing EU-derived arrangements and that coherence with existing regulatory frameworks was identified as a main consideration.”
“I note that the Member for Strangford agrees: she understands the value of our fisheries in those areas. There are other complexities. The Isle of Man Government have now done a bit of a circle around that island, which makes it difficult for our fishers from Portavogie, Kilkeel and Portaferry to craft and graft a living from some of the…”
“The Committee took the opportunity to question officials on several issues and highlight matters warranting scrutiny at Committee Stage but was not limited to those areas.”
“As the Minister said, they have possibly been viewed as competing demands, but they are not competing demands, because clean water is part of sustainable food production.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am glad to see language in the Bill on the sustainability of the aquaculture sector, and I want to lean in a bit on that. Aquaculture pastimes have, perhaps, been underutilised, whether they relate to the angling fraternity or other river and water users.”
“Today, I want to talk about a very talented young girl from Lisburn called Freya Terris. Freya, who is 17 years old, attends Friends' School and studies the piano under former Lisburn resident Rory Dowse. Freya is an incredibly accomplished young pianist and has performed in the Ulster Hall.”
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“I thank the Member for his intervention, and I will try to answer him as briefly —.”
“Already, after our first two meetings, I know that the Chair will ensure that that is the case for the newly constituted Committee.”
“I have met the Department and the EA a number of times specifically on that point. I urge the Minister to detail in his response a clear timeline and his clear ambition that the project is recognised as a serious priority and say that it will be addressed in the appropriate way. We need to address the failings and systemic shortcomings of the past, treat our children who have additional needs with equality and dignity and show them that we value them as we do all our children. <BR /> <BR />I had the privilege of serving on the previous Education Committee from 2020 to 2022. We, along with the previous Chair, Chris Lyttle — I pay tribute to Chris and the outgoing Committee — made sure that work was done to ensure that special educational needs remained a number-one priority for the Committee.”
“The reality is that — this is becoming a calendar event — young children are missing out on their first day at school. It is simple: missing out on your first day at school, whether it is nursery school, primary school or first year — year 8, as it is called now — is just not acceptable. When I think about the start in life that some of those young people have had and about the fact that that has been compounded by the systems we have in place that dictate that they will face the most disadvantage in getting one of those spaces, it breaks my heart. I know that that is the case for many Members in the room. <BR /> <BR />The motion calls on the Minister:”
“However, one thing that I will repeatedly say to the two parties — the one that sits to my right and the one over there — is that funding is only one part of it. Failure to have government here for five out of eight years does not negate our responsibility in the transformation of education and the provision of opportunities for our young people. I hope that that is picked up in a mature fashion by the parties who have exercised the veto over the last couple of years. <BR /> <BR />It has, sadly, become a regular occurrence for me, as an MLA — I am sure that it is the same for the MLAs in the Chamber — to assist constituents who are finding it difficult to get a statement for their child or to get additional support that sometimes does not need a statement.”
“<BR /> <BR />I will also mention Mencap, which has battled beyond expectations and capacity for many years to support families and young people. However, sadly, our special settings do not have the capacity to meet demand. Those schools and settings are now overcrowded, and the teachers and support staff struggle to meet the needs of individual children. I know that the EA and the Department have moved, over the last couple of years, towards supporting more of our children through specialist provision in mainstream schools, which is known as SPiMS. There are many instances of good learning and good examples that we can pick from there. <BR /> <BR />I know that the Minister, at some stage in his argument, will talk about the lack of funding and investment over the years and will say that that has led to a lot of the issues.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Minister will, I am sure, refer, as he has done since taking up post, to the significant challenges that the full educational sphere faces. Most of that will probably be fiscal, but the unarguable point is that the most detrimental impacts are being faced and felt by some of our most vulnerable children. If that does not ensure that we make them our priority, I am not sure what will. <BR /> <BR />It is not all doom and gloom: we get it right at times. I pay particular tribute to our special schools, which are absolutely amazing. I have paid many visits to some but, sadly, not all of them over the years: Fleming Fulton, Harberton, Parkview and Glenveagh. I cannot commend the staff enough for the fabulous service that they give to our young people in those locations.”
“From birth right through life, all of us will be faced with challenges, difficulties, opportunities and potential, but there is another reality. That reality is that life's opportunities, difficulties and challenges are not equal. We are not all born the same. Some of our most amazing young people are born with difficulties or disabilities, and some develop issues that require them to have additional support throughout their formative years. Sadly and with growing regularity — the proposer of the motion has spoken to this — more children are having difficulties and are not being afforded the appropriate — I would go as far as to say "adequate", never mind "appropriate" — help at a really important moment in their life.”
“That will teach me, won't it? I was laughing at the Chair of the Education Committee for making a mistake, but I made mine on purpose. I was thinking about your comment about crazy biscuits, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker, and about how I could be funny. I do not need to be funny, because this is a serious debate. We have no hesitation in supporting the motion, and we hope that there will be unanimity in the Chamber and that the modest amendment that we have tabled will also be accepted. <BR /> <BR />Parenting is not easy for any of us. Anyone who has had the privilege of being a parent will know that it is not easy. It is one of the most significant and life-altering occurrences that you can have the privilege of having.”
“I was laughing at you. <BR /> <BR />I beg to move the following amendment:”
“Thank you, Principal Deputy Speaker. We will —.”
“Can the Minister give an update on the impact that the funding cuts will have on the new-build project for Fort Hill Integrated College in his constituency of Lagan Valley?”
“The Minister has made a really good contribution, but her last statement concerns me a little bit. Many people who have a speech and language difficulty do not even know that that is the case, which impacts their ability to trigger that support. I suggested that we could look at having some type of assessment on committal, as that would mean that nobody falls through the sieve.”
“However, if there is a root-and-branch approach to this, we take the opportunity that this gives — the motion gives us the early genesis of it — and we take rehabilitation seriously and see this as a fundamental seed in reversing the trend of ever-growing prison numbers, it is perhaps something that we can all rally behind. <BR /> <BR />I want to leave you with something. It is twofold. There are two things that we are trying to do here, and we will have many more discussions about what we can do for young people and rightly so. However, for the people who are already known to the criminal justice system, the fire has, unfortunately, already started. It is our job to put that fire out.”
“One of the saddest things that I witnessed when I worked in the prison was the families who visited the people who were in prison, particularly the kids. There is an unfortunate trend — not often, but it is not unusual — where kids follow their parents into the system. If we can get the communication barriers lifted, not just for the system but within the families, what change can we bring to a family to prevent that familial, cyclical process? What does that not do for the family structure? <BR /> <BR />Finally, what is the societal benefit? The Minister will know well that prisons and the criminal justice system are some of the hardest places in which to generate money and investment, because, sometimes, society may not look kindly on those who find themselves in prison.”
“It was fantastic and was a game changer, but, unfortunately, probably due to budgets — it was nobody's intention — the project was pulled even though it was having a measurable effect. If we are serious about making conditions better for the people who find themselves there, we will do it on committal. We will do it at the earliest chance that we get, namely when people come in. It is not just about speech and language, although that is the issue that we are talking about today. <BR /> <BR />Why else do we do it? We do it for the staff. We also, obviously, do it for the young offender or, indeed, the prisoner. It is easy to understand the piece, and people have talked about rehabilitation being the answer to reoffending, but I will paint another picture for you.”
“Thank you very much; I appreciate that. <BR /> <BR />I thank the Member for his intervention. The reality is that, if you work there, it impacts on you too. Some of the prisons are old and archaic. They are not therapeutic environments, and it is the same for the staff. That is why it is important that, particularly on committal, the prison population, whether young offenders or prisoners, is assessed across the ambit of conditions, one of which is speech and language. That will open so many doors. <BR /> <BR />I have an example of where there was a failure. I cannot remember what year it started, but, in Hydebank Wood, an initiative was started by, I think, Governor Treacy a number of years back. It involved early identification of ADHD, then awareness for young people, awareness for the staff and support.”
“It is probably the most difficult job that I have ever done, and being an MLA is a difficult job that brings pressures every day, including expectation and so on. I want Members to picture this, because this is what it is like to work in a prison. You work in a combative, highly charged environment where there are lots of pressures on you, including from a system that demands that you are there to protect and look after the people in the prisons. There are the complex characters who are navigating a difficult point in their lives. It is difficult work being a prison officer, and that is compounded, at times, by the system. One of the biggest pressures on staff is staff numbers, which have been reduced since I was a prison officer in the late 1990s. The impact of that is a failure to effectively rehabilitate inmates.”
“People have spoken eloquently and rightly in the debate, and they have intertwined that with the need to get upstream to stop our young people falling into difficulties with the criminal justice system. One quantifiable element of that is the barriers that some young people find in their inability to communicate effectively or, indeed, be understood. We are talking today about those who, unfortunately, are known to the criminal justice system. That being the case, I want to strip out a number of areas that explain why the debate is so important. <BR /> <BR />I will start with prison staff, and, as a former prison officer, I make no excuse for that. I will paint a picture, and I will do it every time for the people who work in our prisons.”
“My name is on the motion, but I was not minded to speak on it, because my leader and Mike Nesbitt, who will make the winding-up speech, are passionate about it. However, I have listened to the debate with great interest — I thank every Member who has participated in it — and it would be remiss of me, given my experience as a former prison officer and my interest in children and young people, not to speak in the debate. <BR /> <BR />On the purpose of the motion, I will start with the analogy of separating the ideas of putting fires out and stopping fires starting. The motion deals specifically with putting fires out as opposed to prevention.”
“I welcome the Minister's announcement today, and I would like to give him the opportunity to commit to achieving the legislation in this mandate. Is the Minister minded to incorporate the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities (UNCRPD) into the ambitions for the legislation?”
“Prison officers still find themselves with that security risk in 2024. Money does not pay you for some of the jobs that our people have to do. Will the Member reflect on that? He set out a good position on the Police Service in regard to the ongoing security risk, but Prison Service staff still face a similar threat.”
“I thank the Member for giving way, because the matter is very close to my heart. The Assembly has seen multiple failures when it comes to the training college at Desertcreat, which should have been in place years ago. The reality is that, if we want to save money and to provide better public services and a better emergency response to save people's lives, there is that need for a tri-service response, whether it is the Fire and Rescue Service, the Northern Ireland Ambulance Service or the Prison Service and the Police Service, because the jobs are multifunctional now. <BR /> <BR />The Member makes a really good point about the security risk to police officers. I started in the Prison Service in 1996. I think that my take-home pay was around £850 at that stage, but I had to check under my car every day that I held that job.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I enjoyed my time with him on the Education Committee, and I think that, with tonight's input so far, I will enjoy his performance in opposition. <BR /> <BR />Does the Member agree — I think that he will — in regard to the deficit that our health service has faced — not just the underinvestment but the political underinvestment when we have not had a ministerial lead, ministerial direction or the political leadership for the transformation that is needed in our health service — that there is a lasting trauma that impacts on the people of Northern Ireland?”
“Those people are paid some of the lowest rates across our public services. Regrettably, many of those workers feel undervalued and are looking elsewhere. Minister, we have already lost too many of those talented and dedicated staff; we cannot afford to lose any more.”
“Many children who attend school daily do so with the expert assistance of a team of non-teaching wonder workers: from the morning pickup by the bus or taxi driver and the driver's assistants, right through to the school-meal cooks and those who provide one-to-one or broader classroom assistance. The reality is that if we did not have that team in place, many of those children would miss out on their school experience. <BR /> <BR />I do not believe that there is a single person in the Chamber, or indeed across the country, who does not recognise the financial hardship facing many in our public services. The need for fair pay and an equitable pay increase for those who provide essential services is recognised by all, but nowhere is it more pronounced than amongst educational support workers.”
“Most people would agree that education is one of the areas most deserving of transformation. An abyss has been developing, and not only in crumbling buildings. We see the wages of teachers and support staff fall woefully behind those of their compatriots across the other United Kingdom jurisdictions. Children from socially disadvantaged areas are still bound by a widening gap in educational attainment. Most worrying of all is the growing crisis in special educational needs. <BR /> <BR />While much could be said about the whole gamut of deficiencies and stresses in the education sector, Minister, I want to highlight a real-time matter that needs to be addressed without hesitation to avert a serious impact on the most vulnerable pupils.”
“Sadly, that type of experience does not add qualitative or quantitative benefit to our ability to bring any forensic examination to the accounts. Regrettably, the crisis that public functions and services find themselves in, which, in all honesty, is due, in part, to the underinvestment that we have spoken about for a number of weeks, is matched by our serial underinvestment in politics in the Chamber. As Colin McGrath of the SDLP pointed out, in five years out of the past seven, the Assembly has not sat. <BR /> <BR />If we set that aside, accept that there are cracks and gaping holes — not just those that affect our streets, pathways and roads — and look at the health and education systems in particular, we find that they have been hammered by underinvestment and the lack of proper politics in this Chamber.”
“Given that I was late in adding my name to the list to speak, I will keep my comments relatively brief. <BR /> <BR />Minister, given the quantum of what is being asked for, in the Vote on Account in particular, accelerated passage should not normally be granted — there is probably agreement on that across the Chamber — nor should it be agreed in such short-term form. However, we are where we are, and public services demand that we act expediently. We need to examine, at all times, why we are in the position that we are in, having to make decisions in this manner. Predominantly, what has led to this position is the fact that we have had a two-year political veto exercised over the Assembly. We have form in that regard. We had a three-year veto between 2017 and 2020.”
“<BR /> <BR />I thank those who have helped Daniel succeed. He started off, as a young person, in Lisburn LeisurePlex, probably with the little ducks and swans, as they are called, and moved on to Lurgan. He then came back to Lisburn City Swimming Club in his teens. He had to manage his education journey alongside his commitment to swimming. We can resolutely support and congratulate Daniel Wiffen and the team on the success that they have achieved in Doha and can look forward to future success for Swim Ireland.”
“It was a bit crazy — there were a lot of cars — but the crowds that were there yesterday were the families, friends and supporters of the many young people who were there as part of a swimming gala. What struck me was not just the discipline that they have, like Daniel has had to attain world champion status, but the back-room team of mums and dads, carers, trainers, coaches and others who are there to support and champion those young people to unparalleled levels of success. The commitment that Daniel had to put in over the years probably manifested in really early morning starts. Some young people go to our swimming pools at 5 o'clock or 6 o'clock in the morning and perhaps for evening swims and, almost always, five to six times a week. Success does not come without cost. It comes with commitment and support.”
“I associate myself with the thoughts that you are passing on to the Stalford family, Mr Speaker. Christopher was indeed a fantastic parliamentarian, but I know that as a father — a dad — and a husband he will also be sadly missed. <BR /> <BR />Today, we have some good news. Many Members will have been made aware of the great success at the weekend of our own Daniel Wiffen from Magheralin. He achieved a quite astounding feat over the past six days by winning two gold medals, in the freestyle swimming 800 metres and 1,500 metres. I am sure that every Member will want to wish him great success in his future endeavours, whether in the Commonwealth Games or the Olympic Games. <BR /> <BR />I was in the Lisburn LeisurePlex yesterday. I went to a birthday party for a six-year-old.”
“I thank the Member for giving way, and I know that she will not have time added on. <BR /> <BR />I am glad that the Member raised that point, because I did not get a chance to address the Minister on it. I thank the Department for the work that it has done on the costings, but what has been missing all along is the fact that savings could well be made not just fiscally but in the improvement to children's lives. If we get the early identification of needs and early support in, guess what? Our ambition should be to reduce the burden on the special education budget, which is costing £0·5 billion at this point. I offer a challenge to the Minister to ensure that not just the cost but the savings are factored into those fiscal arrangements.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I hope that this is a useful intervention. One or perhaps two other Ministers could be included. We are talking about expanding employability opportunities, so the Minister for the Economy has a role to play, and, for those who are economically inactive, so does the Minister for Communities. I accept that it will be a costly solution in the longer term. In the short term, we can definitely do something about care for three-to-four-year-olds and, possibly, for two- to three-year-olds, but, for the longer-term ambition, if we have full Executive proportionality, perhaps that is where we leverage the finances from.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I am enjoying his passion and the direction in which he is taking the debate. He started really strongly on the family, but families are now slightly different in their make-up. We have a growing number of single-parent families, and single parents find it even more difficult, when there is only one income coming in, so I hope that the development of this policy is an opportunity. Does the Member agree that there needs to be the ambition to factor it in that it is not just about the nuclear two-plus-one family but about single parents in particular, perhaps, to offer them hope of a route back into work and earning?”
“The strategy needs to be co-designed, forward-facing, ambitious and child-centred and to underpin an achievement that Northern Ireland can be proud of and lead the way in on these islands.”
“It must not be done in isolation. It must not be a stand-alone policy. It must be one that will speak to many policies, such as those on anti-poverty, gender imbalance in the workplace or addressing educational underachievement. This policy must have the capacity to speak across all those sectors. <BR /> <BR />There is a wealth of evidence at hand, from the English, Welsh and Scottish models and that in the Republic of Ireland, and wide recognition that many of the issues that we will discuss are well-versed but need to be faced into. I challenge the Minister that we need to see a costed options paper as soon as possible, so that the Assembly and the relevant Committees can get their teeth into it.”
“They are also trying to pay their staff, and the staff just are not there any more. It is one of those fields in which it is so hard to recruit. Again, I hope that a full-circle strategy will speak to that. <BR /> <BR />On Ms Dillon's point, I recently had a parent contact me about the barriers that her child now faces. That centres on the fact that the child has additional needs. That is why I am happy with the amendment that we have offered to this excellent motion. We absolutely support the motion and hope that you support our amendment. There should be co-design/co-production of any strategy or plan that comes through that involves families whose kids face the most challenging start to life, perhaps in accessing waiting lists in the health service or professional help from paediatricians or with speech and language.”
“We know that those who work full-time get access to higher levels of training and more opportunities for promotion and career enhancement. That should not be the case in 2024. <BR /> <BR />I want to talk about the availability of childcare places. The Minister will be well aware of the difficulties in our constituency of Lagan Valley. Sadly, this week, one of our longest-established and best childcare facilities, Birdies, announced its intention to close its doors. I do not know all the details behind that decision, but I suspect that part of the issue is staff availability and fair pay for staff. We want to pay those people a good wage, and we should. We should have professional training for them. How do we do that, however? Centres are faced with crippling costs, whether for fuel, rent, rates or whatever.”
“<BR /> <BR />I have two grown-up kids, as you know, and I now have three little kids. With the first two, I did not need childcare. I worked shifts in the Fire Service, so it was OK. Now my wife has had to make a decision. She is a nurse and has had to reduce her hours to 30 hours a week to overcome the difficulties not only in accessing childcare but in doing so mechanically. Perhaps the Minister needs to pick up on that when he responds. As has already been picked up on, there is gender disparity, and I am displaying it in my own blinking house. I try to be as flexible as I can to respond to need, but, unfortunately, owing to the way in which we are set up at the moment, although, again, they should not be, an unintended consequence is that women are discriminated against. It is not just when it comes to accessing work.”
“I would like to see this being one of the first policies that has them embedded throughout, because, if we are serious about tackling disadvantage, educational underachievement and barriers to a full life experience for all children, we need to ensure that key policies, which, by the way, are a piece of infrastructure for everyone, address the needs of the child. <BR /> <BR />Why are we doing this? The Member who moved the motion referred to the fact that a full-time childcare place costs over £10,000 on average. When that is broken down, I think that 25% of parents are paying over £1,000 a month. When faced with such a bill, in addition to the cost-of-living crisis that we are in, crippling mortgage rates, fuel prices and food inflation, parents and families have to make decisions.”
“The FSB, the CBI and Women in Business are now contacting us to reiterate the absolute need to have their voices heard in order to ensure that what is crafted and created speaks to them and meets need. <BR /> <BR />In the first instance, you would be surprised if I did not speak up for children, Minister, because childcare should be centred on the child. It really needs to be built around the child. I would like you to reflect on the recommendations that we have already heard about in 'A Fair Start' and, indeed, in the most recent independent review of education, because they all point the same way. I hope that your Department will be one of the more ambitious ones in deploying what are termed children's rights impact assessments (CRIAs).”
“The Minister will know, as will all Members in the Chamber — our inboxes are becoming inundated — about the difficulties that many parents in Northern Ireland face. The difficulties are twofold: one is the high cost of childcare, making it unaffordable, while the other is its lack of availability and accessibility. The business sector is now gearing up to get involved in the conversation. That is reflected in the second part of my amendment, because what I want to see happen is that, when the Minister embarks on policy planning, it will be not just parents' voices that are included in the co-design and co-production but the voices of those who represent the business sector.”
“It is unintended discrimination, but, because they cannot access the childcare services that other children can, they are, unfortunately, being disadvantaged at the earliest point in their life.”
“I thank the Member for her intervention. I will jump on that point now. It is better to do that than to try to jump about in the mess that I have written down here. I was going to raise that point, because a constituent of mine, who is also a constituent of the Minister, contacted me this very week. One of the issues for the sector is that there are not enough spaces for parents who are applying, but that is further compounded for families with a child who perhaps has some other difficulties and needs additional support. The businesses and the sector do not have the capacity to support such families, and, unfortunately, children are facing discrimination at the very earliest age.”
“I will expand a little bit on why I think that is important, but, during questions earlier to the Education Minister following his statement, it was brilliant to see the number of Members who spoke about special educational needs, children with disabilities and those who need additional support. <BR /> <BR />As has already been asked — we will probably repeat this many times — why do we need to do this? There are a number of reasons.”
“Thankfully, ours was accepted. If the Members opposite and those around the Chamber will indulge me, I will say that the amendment is quite moderate but very important. It changes only a couple of words in the motion, and I will outline, at the very start, the first word that I am proposing to change and why. Without reading it verbatim, the amendment, at the very start, replaces the word "address" with "prevent". As legislators, we need to be a lot more deliberate about the language that we choose when we are proposing ambitious strategies, policies or plans to help change the lives of the people whom we purport to support.”
“Thank you, Principal Deputy Speaker. Some of you will be glad to hear that there was a printer malfunction in my office up the stairs, so I do not have a well-crafted written speech like the Member from across the Chamber who proposed the motion. I will be kind of winging it, but the good thing about winging it on this topic is that we have been talking about it for around two years, particularly on the all-party group, which the Member who proposed the motion chairs brilliantly. It has been quite a journey on that all-party group, and I mirror the chair's comments about the secretariat support that we get from Employers For Childcare and, in particular, from Aoife Hamilton. <BR /> <BR />I know that this is a very important subject for all the parties, because a number of amendments were tabled in the Business Office.”
“I congratulate my neighbour and Lagan Valley colleague on attaining the role of Minister of Education. It is one of the most important Ministries to hold. I thank him for his verbal commitment today to special education, and to special schools in particular. Will he put visits to Fleming Fulton School and Harberton Special School in his diary? <BR /> <BR />I turn to the subject of the statement: sustainable investment in education infrastructure. The most important infrastructure that we have in our schools is our pupils, followed by our teachers and support staff. Will the Minister take the opportunity to update us on the pay negotiations for classroom assistants and drivers, given that, if children do not have support in schools, it will not matter how much we put into the quality of the buildings?”
“I thank the Member for giving way so early in her speech. I agree with absolutely everything that she has said. I agree that we have been underfunded, and we have all signed up to the letter, but the other thing that the Northern Ireland population has been subject to is, in five years out of 10, a failure to have a democratic Assembly. Could the Member say — perhaps the Members to my right might answer — whether there has been any retrospective thinking from the two parties that have denied democratic access and systemic change in Northern Ireland, which also has to be factored in to the calculations on where we are today?”