Robbie Butler
Lagan Valley · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Officials highlighted that alignment was provided through existing EU-derived arrangements and that coherence with existing regulatory frameworks was identified as a main consideration.”
“I note that the Member for Strangford agrees: she understands the value of our fisheries in those areas. There are other complexities. The Isle of Man Government have now done a bit of a circle around that island, which makes it difficult for our fishers from Portavogie, Kilkeel and Portaferry to craft and graft a living from some of the…”
“The Committee took the opportunity to question officials on several issues and highlight matters warranting scrutiny at Committee Stage but was not limited to those areas.”
“As the Minister said, they have possibly been viewed as competing demands, but they are not competing demands, because clean water is part of sustainable food production.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am glad to see language in the Bill on the sustainability of the aquaculture sector, and I want to lean in a bit on that. Aquaculture pastimes have, perhaps, been underutilised, whether they relate to the angling fraternity or other river and water users.”
“Today, I want to talk about a very talented young girl from Lisburn called Freya Terris. Freya, who is 17 years old, attends Friends' School and studies the piano under former Lisburn resident Rory Dowse. Freya is an incredibly accomplished young pianist and has performed in the Ulster Hall.”
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“I thank the Member for giving way. Some of the issues that the Member raised perhaps have some validity. My amendment offers some comfort to the Member on the quantum and the fiscal bid. May I count on the Member's support in putting those measures in place through the Commission?”
“I thank the Member for giving way and for the Alliance Party's support for our amendment. Does it make any sense to the Member to see in the amendment anything other than fiscal responsibility? The Member for South Down said that bells and things were being hung on to it, but the amendment is straightforward and simple: it is about public expenditure and protecting money. Does the Member agree that that is simply what the amendment does?”
“Traditionally, I may have been on a different side of the argument, but I am willing to move, and I hope that others have the courage to similarly move and support the amendment. If we do this, we need to do it right. Let us test it, be evidence-led and seek to refine and review as we go forward. <BR /> <BR />Mr Speaker, as a Commission member, I should have put it on record that I was speaking as a member of the Ulster Unionist Party.”
“<BR /> <BR />Our amendment is a small but necessary measure that will ensure that safeguards are in place from the start. This is not party political, guys; this is simply good governance. We should not write a blank cheque for any new service without any indication of the scope of the service provision required. We need to be intelligent about this. If we get this right, I have no doubt that, after six months of fine-tuning, we will have a translation service proportionate to the appropriate demand. I am sure that is something that every one of us could stand over. <BR /> <BR />As I said at the outset, I hope that this is not just another dialogue de sourds. I hope that my words have not fallen on deaf ears. I have done my best to listen to what the Chair of the Committee has said.”
“The Member raises a good point and raises it well, to be fair. That is exactly the point that I am trying to get at. If the Commission, if charged with commissioning the services, has the mechanisms in place to ensure value for money, it is imperative that we look not just at the value in relation to culture and being confident and gracious but at the fiscal responsibility on us, given the pressures that we are face, no less so than in our health service. <BR /> <BR />As I said, I believe that a formal review in six months' time is the appropriate mechanism to ensure that the usage of the service is commensurate with the associated financial and staffing implications. Furthermore, a review would allow us to ensure that there is no adverse impact on the business in this Chamber from engaging with or using the service.”
“A formal review in six months' time is the appropriate mechanism to ensure that the usage of the service is commensurate with the associated financial and staffing implications.”
“<BR /> <BR />We do not have to cast our minds back too far to see instances when Irish and Ulster Scots were provided for significantly in excess of demand and at significant cost. I draw Members' attention to the shockingly low usage of the Irish and Ulster-Scots voicemail services administered by the Department for Communities over the past 16 years, with call numbers so low that the statistics were no longer recorded. I say that not to be dismissive but to be practical. Any simultaneous translation service must be sized and staffed in reaction to demand for the service. If the demand is minimal, a minimal translation service is required. Equally, if the demand is significant, a larger service is proportionate and appropriate. We need to be able to measure the usage of any new service as a safeguard to ensure value for money.”
“I assure Members that I am not merely navel-gazing or virtue signalling: I am serious. However, if we are going to go down this road, we have to be serious about implementing the changes, and we have a duty to ensure that we do it right. <BR /> <BR />As MLAs, we are custodians of the public purse. We have a fiscal and moral obligation to make sure that we can stand over every penny of our spending commitment. We must ensure that we are satisfied with the value for money on every penny that we spend, particularly as we are still in economic recovery mode as we come out of the pandemic. The motion needs the amendment in order to ensure that we have agreed mechanisms and controls in place to provide assurance for all of us that the costs are proportionate and meet the demand appropriately.”
“I do not need to give Members a history lesson, but the Good Friday Agreement was a shining moment in our history when we showed not just the world but, more importantly, each other that, when we put our minds to it, we can unite and build a house together in which we can all live. Respect for each other's culture and language was integral to that agreement. <BR /> <BR />I know that it is hard to believe, as Members might think I am too young, but I signed up for the Good Friday Agreement 23 years ago, and I would sign up for it again today. I signed up for the ideals of respect, understanding and tolerance, particularly when it comes to each other's culture, language and heritage. Anyone who knows me will know that I believe strongly in building a union of people, and that means all the people of Northern Ireland.”
“The phrase is used idiomatically to characterise when two people are talking past each other without listening to what the other is saying. I am sure that all Members can easily see how our conversations on Irish and Ulster Scots have been in that context: a dialogue of the deaf. <BR /> <BR />I assure you that we in the Ulster Unionist Party are not deaf and that we have heard all that has been said from all quarters on the issue. We have heard the fears and the concerns, and we have heard the impassioned pleas. We have heard the calls for respect, and I do not just mean in recent years. We heard the same voices and arguments over 23 years ago when we won the Good Friday Agreement.”
“A lot has been said about the Irish language in recent years both inside and outside the Chamber. On the one hand, there are those who are passionate advocates of the Irish language from an historical, cultural and linguistic perspective; on the other hand, there are those who feel that their cultural identity has been squeezed by what they feel has been the politicisation of the language. That conversation has, in many instances, become divisive and fractious, and, frankly, it has not been terribly productive. <BR /> <BR />Mr Deputy Speaker, if you permit me, I will make a quick foray into French. Do not worry, I am not going to start doing an impression of a character from ''Allo 'Allo!', but there is a wonderful French phrase, "dialogue de sourds", which literally means "dialogue of the deaf".”
“Controlled? It is not. Do not mistake my meekness for weakness. <BR /> <BR />I am sure that your suggestion will be taken on board and that we will discuss it at the next Commission meeting.”
“I thank the Member for his question. I take exception to anybody mistaking my meekness for weakness. I assure you that the Commission is not Sinn Féin-led.”
“I thank the Member for his supplementary question. It is a good question. There is a partnership approach, but I will ensure that the exact detail of that is given in a written answer, if that is OK.”
“In that regard, the sustainable development office is a partner of the Eco-Schools group and helps raise awareness of the wildlife on the estate when meeting school groups. <BR /> <BR />The Commission's sustainable development office continues to liaise closely with the estates management unit in order to promote wildlife around Parliament Buildings.”
“Although it has been a challenging year, it is hoped that that resource can again be used as a way in which to educate staff and visitors, including school groups, about the importance of bees for biodiversity. <BR /> <BR />Within the Stormont estate, the estates management unit has provided a woodland environment with minimal intrusion to protect and expand the habitat for plant and animal life. The Commission, through the events office and the Assembly's education officers, promotes the nature trails throughout the estate and encourages visitors and school groups to make use of the grounds when they visit Parliament Buildings. I am sure that the Commission would encourage Members to do that as well.”
“I thank the Member for his question. He will be aware that the Assembly Commission has responsibility only for Parliament Buildings and the area immediately surrounding the Building. Beyond that, the management of the Stormont estate falls within the remit of the Department of Finance and specifically its estates management unit. Since the unit's inception in 2015, the Commission has worked in partnership with it to attain and retain the Business in the Community's business and biodiversity charter for the Stormont estate. <BR /> <BR />Within the Commission's limited remit, an apiary has been installed at the west side of Parliament Buildings. There are currently three beehives, and trained beekeepers from building services work closely with Veesbees, the providers, to maintain and look after them.”
“I thank the Member for his supplementary question. That is a really good question. My colleague Mr Buchanan probably covered most of the answer to it earlier when he spoke about the assessment that the Commission has made of risk and the importance of ensuring that we act appropriately within the regulations and guidance from the Department of Health and the Executive. There has been some critique today of the speed at which the Commission is operating, but I think that the statement that was made by the Member earlier stands: it is better to be safe than sorry. We are certainly acting in accordance with the regulations and with the guidance from the Public Health Agency, and that will continue to be the case.”
“That advice still stands, and the Commission is willing to reissue it now, but the interpretation of the current regulations and guidance as they relate to any decision to reopen a constituency office, with or without an appointment, rests solely with each Member.”
“However, under the 1998 Act, the provision of services to individual Members is not a function of the Commission. As such, the Commission has no role in opening, operating, maintaining or closing down constituency offices beyond administering the allowances that the Assembly has made available for those purposes. Similarly, all responsibilities relating to constituency offices fall to Members, including all aspects of health and safety for employees who work in the offices and the health and safety of the public who might visit them. <BR /> <BR />The Commission can and does provide advice to Members on a range of issues. That included a note issued to Members in June 2020 that provided signposting advice when they were deciding whether to reopen their offices at that stage.”
“I thank the Member for his question. I put on record my thanks to Mr Buchanan for his work on the Commission. I will miss calling him "The boy from Pomeroy", but I am sure that I will see him in the alleyways. <BR /> <BR />Under section 40 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, the Assembly Commission has a statutory obligation to:”
“I thank the Minister for his statement. I think the House fully welcomes your statement, Minister, especially the suite of immediate and longer-term actions that you detailed. However, it will take a concerted effort to see the ambition converted into delivery, and the driving force for that will naturally come, first and foremost, from you, as Minister. Are you concerned about the current political instability at the top of the Executive and the danger that it could end in a place that detracts from the delivery of the plan? I am getting a feeling of déjà vu, because I remember that, in 2016, when the Bengoa recommendations were announced, three months later, the Assembly was brought into abeyance.”
“I hope that you have felt those prayers. I noticed that, at the end of your speech, you rightly gave God his rightful place. I offer you and your family this consolation. In 2016, I stepped away from the Fire and Rescue Service and a job that, I thought, I would have for life. I had huge ambitions in the Fire Service, but I believe that God took me in a different direction. What you may see as a pain is God perhaps saying, "I have something better for you" to you and your family. I really hope and pray that he does, Arlene, and I wish you all the best.”
“There was a white van with your face emblazoned on the side, and the caption was "Moving forward with Arlene". That was a considerable challenge for me as the Ulster Unionist MLA. <BR /> <BR />As a number of Members have pointed out, you have a fantastic online presence. I noticed today that you have 99,600 followers on Twitter. I hope that, by the end of today, you will have 100,000 and that you use that platform to reach out to young girls and inspire them further to challenge the narrative and the bullying and to challenge all the things in society that we seek to challenge together. <BR /> <BR />I hope that you do not mind if I call you Arlene at this stage. You know, because I have told you, that I have prayed for you many times over the years, as I have for Michelle and for many leaders. I have prayed for you more often recently.”
“First Minister, I thank you for your fabulous speech, which you made with great dignity and courage. Like the Member across the Chamber, I may not have had the chance to work with you personally, but I have experienced your politics and seen what you have had to suffer over a number of years. Theodore Roosevelt, in a famous speech that he penned in 1910, referred to "the man ... in the arena"; in 2021, perhaps we need to talk about the woman in the arena. You are, perhaps, a perfect example of how, in modern times, a woman can lead and lead successfully in, at times, the most difficult circumstances. That has been going on for a number of years. <BR /> <BR />Politics is a strange place. I remember that, in the 2017 election, I was up against a number of really good candidates in Lagan Valley.”
“I thank the Minister for reinforcing that an untimely death, perhaps through suicide, sometimes, brings the greatest amount of trauma in a school setting. With that in mind, what steps or partnerships are at the disposal of the authority's critical incident response team to mitigate further harm, given that the stress can, often, extend well beyond the gates of the school?”
“I thank the Minister for giving us the report today, albeit that it was a bit late. We would have appreciated getting sight of it. I also thank the expert panel for the report and the timely manner in which the panel produced it, but, as the Minister said, there are reports that predate the SDLP's report. One was by Peter Martin in 2016. That brings me to what I believe to be the biggest pressure on us today. It is not the financial pressures; it is the stability of government. At the moment, we are not enjoying the most stable of times, and there may be moves afoot with the Minister's party. Minister, how important do you believe stable government is to the full implementation of the report and its success?”
“We must never fail our children in the future in the way that we have failed them in the past. We support the motion.”
“<BR /> <BR />The real-life stories, whilst hard to hear — parents talk about mechanical restraint and about isolation or seclusion rooms with no windows, carpet, ventilation, toilet access, water or direct supervision — are, in fact, even harder to read out. For me, the biggest failure is the lack of a requirement to inform parents that these things happened. <BR /> <BR />Today's motion does not seek to remove the ability for a teacher or qualified support staff member to restrain a child appropriately and safely when absolutely necessary for their own safety or the safety of others; rather, it seeks to address a dreadful imbalance. Good practice should be our minimum benchmark, practice based on positive behaviour should be the norm, and we should build on understanding and communicating with those children as a priority.”
“<BR /> <BR />It is only right that we pay tribute, as a number of Members have, to the parental champions who have shared with us their personal testimony of how the system, at times, failed to care for and respect their child. Parents like Rodney and Deirdre Shakespeare, amongst others whom we will not name today, have bared their souls to us. At times, many of us, including the Member across the Chamber and me, were reduced to tears as parents shared the moments that they and their children had suffered and the pain that those moments had caused them as a family. Those parents have brought us to where we are today. Well done to them.”
“It is important to recognise the fantastic work that is done day and daily in schools across Northern Ireland with regard to the education, care and safety of our children. Working in some of those settings can, at times, be the most rewarding and challenging of vocations. In special settings, that work can be even more challenging, due to increased communication difficulties for those pupils. My daughter, who is a third-year Queen's University learning and disability student nurse, often finishes a shift tired, challenged and having learned something new but always committed to understanding the individual better and to reinforcing positive behaviours and that messaging.”
“However, I cannot be clearer in saying that not once did the time spent or the positive behaviour interventions approach fail to work or, more importantly, fail that child.”
“As the education spokesperson for the Ulster Unionist Party, I am delighted to support the motion, which was tabled by the Education Committee to call on the Minister of Education to urgently develop new up-to-date guidance on restraint and seclusion. I am somewhat saddened that, in 2021, with all that we know about children and their development, we still have to talk about change. <BR /> <BR />As a parent of over 20 years, and, perhaps more significantly, a foster parent with over 15 years' service, I have some experience of children who, at times, display behaviour that is challenging and difficult to deal with. I will not diminish or sugar-coat the effort that it sometimes takes to de-escalate or normalise the behaviour of the child at that point.”
“He talks about trauma — Professor Siobhán O'Neill, our mental health champion, is big on trauma-informed practice — and how a lot of our problems, whether of addiction or mental health, come from a trauma. He describes how, for most people, addiction happens when there is a trauma. You look for the fix. You take the fix that eases the pain, but the problem does not go away. You wake up with a hangover, reach for the drink or the drugs, and you go back in. Your problem is not fixed, so you just repeat the cycle. If we are to be serious about prevention, that is where we need to get to. We can use that image when we look at a lot of things, which may include relationships, coercive control, domestic abuse or bullying of the LGBT community and faith groups. We can apply it to everything.”
“However, we also need to reach further and ask, "How do we prevent this problem continuing into the future? Is this the legacy that we want for our young people in 10, 15 or 20 years' time?". I go back to what I said in opening my speech: I commend each and every Member who has spoken on the motion. The tone has been brilliant — it has been excellent — and will give people hope that we are serious and collegiate about one of the most significant issues that we face in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />I urge everyone, when we look at this, not to discount our ability to prevent such things happening. I will use an example that relates to addictions. Dr Gabor Maté's helix of the addiction cycle is simple to understand.”
“If you get a chance, guys, have a go at it, because it is quite revealing. Mr Buckley told a very emotional story about a family in Portadown who lost their son. The Minister was close to tears when he intervened to find an extra minute for the Member. These are all real issues and real problems. <BR /> <BR />I commend the motion and support it. However, it brings me back to one thing, guys: prevention. The motion is about intervention and the need to support people who are in need at the moment. That is absolutely right. We need to find the money, and, hopefully, we can do that through the Minister of Finance. Working collaboratively with structures such as the Department of Education, which was mentioned in the context of what we can do for young people, we can do this together.”
“I have seen it over the years, and I regret those stats very much, I really do. It is almost unforgivable that those things are still the case in 2021. As a person of faith, I also suffered abuse and bullying in school. I was physically abused and spat on, so I know what it feels like to be marginalised. Woe betide anybody with a faith who uses their faith to marginalise someone else. I find that reprehensible and would pull anybody up who did it. We are all the same, and we are all different. It is our differences that need to be celebrated, and we all need to be given the room to be who we are. <BR /> <BR />Domestic abuse and coercive abuse were talked about. I was at an event at Queen's last week where I put on VR goggles and was able to view coercive abuse through the eyes of the victim.”
“I am one of those who was not going to speak in the debate, but I just want to commend each Member for how they have conducted the discussion. Mental ill health is one of the biggest crises that we face in Northern Ireland. That was the case pre COVID, and, obviously, it will only be exacerbated now. I know that the Minister is already setting out plans to tackle it. The Minister is the right person in the right place at the right time. I think, genuinely, that his performance over the last year will give comfort to people, as they will know that it is a priority of his. <BR /> <BR />I will pick up on a number of the issues that have been talked about. Mr Muir talked about the LGBT community here, which, for many years, has been marginalised, on the wrong end of conversations and bullied. He gave some stats.”
“I will try not to take up too much of your time. Will the Member join me in thanking Pure Mental NI for the toolkits that it has published? Young people are already mobilising and showing us what can happen and what they can do through that cross-departmental approach to supporting mental health.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. She has been strong on parental alienation for a long time, and I support her in that. Is she aware that some groups deny that parental alienation is an issue? Does she agree that that is one of the harder things to combat and that we need to do more to reinforce the fact that it is real and has a huge impact on people's mental health?”
“Genuinely, what were they trying to do? Did people genuinely fear that teachers would be converted or that children would be converted? Does the Member agree that the exemption is just discrimination?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. My learned colleague Justin from the Education Committee referred to Pope Francis. In 2018, I had the privilege of going to Dublin to meet the Pope. I went down a Christian Protestant unionist. When I came back up, I was a Christian Protestant unionist, and the Pope was still a Catholic.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. He has, obviously, read the pack in detail. It is good to note that. As regards the discussion around 2013 to 2015, the same question was raised and the perceived logjam could not be identified. The non-appearance of Executive Office Ministers or the Minister of Education — we were looking for Executive Office Ministers today — perhaps points to something. Does the Member share my concern that, although this could be a good debate and we could get unanimity in it, perhaps the logjam is higher up the chain than we once thought?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. He made the point that he always speaks up for workers. Given, then, the point that I made, which was that nursery-school and primary-school teachers are predominantly women, does he agree that this legislative provision can be likened to an indirectly discriminatory measure against women by preventing them from gaining employment?”
“There is a complete hypocrisy at play if we claim that we are truly in pursuit of a shared future. Without change, the vision of shared education will not succeed. Unless schools have interchangeable staff, whether that be at recruitment or upon promotion, and unless teachers can and do apply across the schools estate and are then selected based 100% on their holistic ability and fit to that school, perhaps we are doomed to fail. I commend the motion.”
“<BR /> <BR />It was welcome to hear, today, the continuing commitment of Geraldine McGahey, chief commissioner of the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland, who welcomed the motion. The Equality Commission has long recommended the removal of teachers' exemption from the Fair Employment and Treatment Order 1998. Its view is that:”
“<BR /> <BR />Whilst some may point to the obvious disparity between the measurable ability of the controlled sector to attract teachers from a more diverse community background than the Catholic maintained sector, we must insist that more can be done, that more must be done, and that none of the figures reported can be called a success or celebrated. It must be reinforced that I have no concern as to the level or quality of teaching that our teachers give in every sector or their ability to provide a first-class educational return. Rather, I am concerned about the missed opportunities that a more community-balanced and reflective slate of teachers could bring to all our schools. That would contribute to a deliberate and meaningful move towards the shared society that we all desire.”
“It showed that 2% of teachers who work in Catholic maintained sector primaries attended a controlled primary school in Northern Ireland and that 7% of teachers who are employed in controlled primary schools were educated in a Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS) primary. Given that the vast majority of our nursery and primary-school teachers are women, this is clearly indirect discrimination against women in particular. Similarly, 8% of those teaching in CCMS post-primaries and 17% of teachers in Catholic voluntary grammar schools attended non-Catholic primaries in Northern Ireland, while 17% of those employed in controlled post-primary schools and 23% of teachers in non-Catholic grammar schools attended CCMS primaries.”
“It has been pointed out in reports that the reality for many teachers in Northern Ireland, and what is being achieved by the status quo, is a chill factor, when teachers look for employment and, through no fault of their own, select and make application predominantly to schools that reflect their own community identity. It can extend to a cycle in which a person learns in a community-concentrated school, achieves teacher qualifications in a community-centred college, and then goes on to teach in a community-concentrated school. <BR /> <BR />The assumption was borne out in 2018, when over 1,000 teachers completed an online survey conducted through the UNESCO Centre at Ulster University.”
“I know that, across the Chamber, that is exactly what we want to see, even if we travel in different vehicles sometimes. <BR /> <BR />We place massive burdens and expectations on our teachers, especially the burden of building a vision for inclusivity and a better, shared future than we had to tolerate as young people. Our children's futures are entrusted to them. We must ask ourselves this: "Are we making this task an impossible dream by corralling our teachers, whether deliberately or by political inaction?". It is hard — in fact, it is nigh on impossible — to imagine where such an exemption would be permissible or acceptable. The impacts of that draconian measure extend beyond employment opportunities for teachers, however.”