Robbie Butler
Lagan Valley · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Officials highlighted that alignment was provided through existing EU-derived arrangements and that coherence with existing regulatory frameworks was identified as a main consideration.”
“I note that the Member for Strangford agrees: she understands the value of our fisheries in those areas. There are other complexities. The Isle of Man Government have now done a bit of a circle around that island, which makes it difficult for our fishers from Portavogie, Kilkeel and Portaferry to craft and graft a living from some of the…”
“The Committee took the opportunity to question officials on several issues and highlight matters warranting scrutiny at Committee Stage but was not limited to those areas.”
“As the Minister said, they have possibly been viewed as competing demands, but they are not competing demands, because clean water is part of sustainable food production.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am glad to see language in the Bill on the sustainability of the aquaculture sector, and I want to lean in a bit on that. Aquaculture pastimes have, perhaps, been underutilised, whether they relate to the angling fraternity or other river and water users.”
“Today, I want to talk about a very talented young girl from Lisburn called Freya Terris. Freya, who is 17 years old, attends Friends' School and studies the piano under former Lisburn resident Rory Dowse. Freya is an incredibly accomplished young pianist and has performed in the Ulster Hall.”
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“In one second. The issue is the burden on our teachers, children and, in particular, children with additional needs. We agree that the best place to have our children is in school, but we have to be collegiate and collective in how we address that. Hopefully, the Executive will come to the right conclusion today in how they do that. In the Committee, Mr Sheehan has brought up, very rightly, the contingency planning that needs to happen for exams. We have the transfer test that may or may not happen. I hope that the contingency plans will be addressed. However, there are practical steps that we can take. <BR /> <BR />Ventilation is one of the things that we have been talking about. I go back to the point about having the right people in the room to do that.”
“It was never the case that principals and school leaders should have been doing the contact tracing. For over a year, Graham Gault of the National Association of Head Teachers (NAHT) Northern Ireland and the other teaching unions and leaders have been asking for the contact-tracing issue to be addressed. Now, it is going to be addressed, and that has to be welcomed. <BR /> <BR />People are being engulfed by the fear of what is happening in our schools. We need to be very accurate when we talk about the risks that are in schools, because the Public Health Agency and our school leaders are telling us that schools are a safe place. That is not the problem, and let us not conflate the issue. The issue is the burden on our teachers —.”
“I thank the Member for his point. The intervention illustrates something for me. We are still in the midst of the COVID pandemic, and, whilst he is correct, one of the things that emanates from the Chamber is the difference in attitude to taking risks. Whilst I agree with you, there are members of your party who are prepared to take much more risk. Not the Education Minister, but there are people who have been calling for the relaxation of the COVID restrictions for the economy. You will take that in the round. My background is in risk assessment in the Fire and Rescue Service, but I also know about the need to appropriately appoint people to deal with risk. That is why I have issues with the guidance as it was issued. I am grateful to the Minister because she has been working with the PHA and my Minister to revise that guidance.”
“I thank those who tabled the motion for bringing it to the Chamber. We will support the motion. I get the point that my Committee colleague made about the line in the motion that seems to point blame directly at the Minister. I remind everybody that we are not in politics to serve our parties or any single purpose other than the people of Northern Ireland. Today, I would hate to see an intensification of the fear that is now gripping our schools. It is very important — I am getting a look from Mr Allister — but this is key.”
“Thank you, and I thank you for addressing that point. If this is about equality, how, when addressing the issues, is lifting one sector above the others the right thing to do? Surely, we should pull it up to the same level. I accept that some, especially parents and people who went to an integrated school, feel that there may not be a level playing field, but giving a presumed preference is equally unequal.”
“Will the Member, as the leader of the Green Party, put on record whether the Green Party's position is that it objects to religious education being taught in schools as well, or does it object just to their ethos? After all, religious education is one of the most popular GCSE and A-level topics, and that is student choice.”
“<BR /> <BR />Suffice it to say, the Ulster Unionist Party intends to work with the Member on the Bill in Committee. Individuals in the party will possibly table amendments to it. We accept, however, that the intent of the Bill is good and that there is scope to do something with it, so we look forward to further developments.”
“The thing is, however, that all those wee labels should be smaller than the reason that we are here to legislate, which is to look after everybody in Northern Ireland and to do our very best for them. Education could fall into the same trap. We see that, to be fair. I suffered from it. I did not go to a grammar school, and, to be honest, a little bit of me felt that I was less than. You may think that I am totally for the transfer test, but, rather, I am for something better for our children. That may be something akin to the current system, or it may not. The independent review will pick that up. It is the same with the Bill: in its current form, it elevates one sector above the others and says that it will be treated a bit better, although that is not its intent.”
“The promotion of one cannot be done by putting another one down. We need to pull them up together, and we can do that with the Bill. I have no doubt that the integrated sector needs something. It needs to be brought on to a level playing field with the controlled and maintained sectors, but, unfortunately, the Bill would elevate it above them. <BR /> <BR />To go back to Mr Weir's point, Northern Ireland is a place in which we need to be very careful. This is me getting a bit preachy now. We run about using labels. Some of them are unionist labels, some are nationalist, some are republican, some are loyalist and some are neither, other or whatever.”
“Absolutely. The Chair of the Education Committee may be picking me up incorrectly. There is an independent review of education that will address that point. Every one of us recognises that the independent review will do that. To be fair to the Chair, the purpose of the Bill is not to save money. It is not about filling the empty seats. That is not its purpose, so I am not sure of the point that he is making. Part of the Bill does talk about efficiencies, but it also talks about empty desk spaces not being a justification for not building an integrated school. <BR /> <BR />This goes to the heart of what we are talking about. Every one of us wants to deliver for our constituents, and we listen to our constituents. That is why parental choice is incredibly important. We also need to ensure that each of the sectors is upheld.”
“It would tell every child in this country that integrated education produces a slightly better pupil, maybe not academically but in the more rounded sense, but it does not. It absolutely does not. It produces every bit as good a pupil as a maintained, Irish-medium or controlled school. That is just the nature of —.”
“However, if, for whatever reason, you go past a school that has empty desks to build another school when you could fill those desks with pupils, I will argue that that is not a good or effective use of resources. We need to make sure that other clauses in the Bill do not contradict that one. <BR /> <BR />Clause 7 — the sponsor will know this already — is perhaps most significant among the issues that my party and I have. In its current form, it has to be removed; it is as simple as that. It just cannot float. There cannot be a presumption, without consulting the community, to put a name on a school, whether that be maintained, controlled or integrated. If the intent is a level playing field, we can deliver that. We all should put our shoulder to the wheel to deliver it. In its current form, however, it lifts integrated education.”
“The addition of factors that cannot be used as an objection to an integrated school means consulting the community and parents on the type of school that they want while saying to them, "It cannot be based on the demographics, and it cannot be based on empty school desks". <BR /> <BR />We know that the Assembly Budget is huge; it is massive. The Education budget, at £2·3 billion to £2·4 billion a year, is the second biggest departmental budget. In some ways, parts of the Bill are contradictory. Clause 2(b) specifies as a purpose of integrated education:”
“I am sure that some of you guys were there when we were doing NDNA. It was an interesting time down at Castle Buildings. I heard the phrase, "Let's return to the spirit of the Good Friday Agreement" many times. It sounds great. Unfortunately, none of the authors of the Good Friday Agreement was there, and the spirit of it meant a different thing to each of us. We need things to be codified and written down so that they are not left to the interpretation of someone who follows. That is why we need to amend or remove clause 3. <BR /> <BR />Arguably, the meaning of "promotion" in clause 5 could be seen to be against parental or community choice. It needs to be changed.”
“It is a bit like offering a section 75 element, if you like, to one sector. In my reading and without further explanation, it seems to say that any decision made by the Department will have to pass through a consultative body like the Northern Ireland Council for Integrated Education (NICIE). That is not stated, but it could be NICIE. However, that facility is not afforded to the controlled sector or the maintained sector. That is the elevation of a sector. I know that that is not the sponsor's intent, but that is why we need to be clear when we bring potential legislative changes to the Committee and then through further legislative stages — so that we get it right.”
“The Bill's sponsor will say that it uses the word "promote" in reference to shared education, but shared education is not a sector; it is an ethos and a principle. The maintained and controlled sectors do not have the opportunity to promote what they do. If we are trying to create a level playing field, we can do that by amending or removing certain clauses. For instance, clause 4 needs to be amended to reflect that. <BR /> <BR />Clause 3 seeks to provide a consultative element not afforded to any other sector.”
“I talk to my party colleagues, and the Chair of the Committee would join us on this, about the Fair Employment and Treatment Order (FETO). We have so many inequalities, not just regarding our children but our teachers. Our teachers are trained in two separate colleges, and then there is an obstacle to employment opportunities for them. We need to see that removed as well. <BR /> <BR />As I said, the Bill, in its current form, speaks unkindly, although perhaps not intentionally, of the controlled and maintained sectors in particular; even the Irish-medium sector misses out a little. In its current form, the Bill goes beyond its intent. It contains the instruction to "promote" — something not afforded to any other sector.”
“I think that it was Carál Ní Chuilín who said a few weeks ago that there is not a sectarian bone in my body. I hope that everyone picks up on that. Perhaps what we are trying to fix is not the fault of our education sector; it is how we are, it is how we communicate, it is part of our environment. However, educating children together, in whatever form, is a component part of making things better in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />To go back to what I said at the start, the rationale exists for exploring every opportunity to integrate and bring our children together for educational purposes. My party's mantra is to try to create a Union for all. I had a little chuckle with the Bill's sponsor that if we got this right, it would probably add to the ethos of my party.”
“Yes, absolutely. I can see the Member for Strangford getting a bit frustrated, and, to be fair to her, we need to bring the debate back to the Bill. We do not agree on this, guys: we put it around the Committee for a while. I am sure that we will learn from this experience — everyone of us — and put the kids first this year. I will not take any more chuntering on that if that is OK. <BR /> <BR />We do not support the Bill in its current form; I do not think that any party here would. However, as I said to its sponsor, the intent is good and, with certain tweaks, it could be transformed into a useful Bill. <BR /> <BR />I am also a product of the controlled sector. Some of the Bill's provisions rankled with me. Its purpose is to educate our children together, perhaps to make them more rounded beings, but I suggest that I am pretty rounded.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. If he is speaking to the children and parents who are suffering because they had a seven-year contract — from P1 to P7 — and were let down last year, I am sure that that would be of great comfort to them.”
“I believe that the intention is good and if, as Mr Sheehan said, we reached out and asked individuals and parents whether they support integrated education, the answer would be a resounding yes. Parental choice needs to be listened to and upheld. However, that is not reflected in certain aspects of the Bill, and I will get to that. Regarding parental choice, the Member raised the issue of academic selection, and, although I am not a champion of it, we saw the problems this year from acting too soon. Twenty-five thousand pupils transferred to year 8, with the parents of more than 14,000 of them choosing academic selection because it is the system that we know. If we are serious about parental choice, we have to encompass it in every conversation, even the painful ones.”
“The reason for that, with regard to the independent review, is whether anybody here could, hand on heart, say that they trust these institutions to be standing next year or the year after. We have just gone through a period of three or four weeks when one of the two parties that sit opposite each other to my left made one or two veiled threats to bring the institutions down. That should not stop us from taking every opportunity to legislate or make things better, whether through legislation, regulations or amendment. <BR /> <BR />If this were the final iteration of the Integrated Education Bill and this were Final Stage, the Ulster Unionist Party would not support it. I need to be really clear about that. I have spoken to Kellie at length about the Bill.”
“The Member from Strabane — Dan from Strabane — said something that triggered something in me. I want to address it now in case I forget to pick up on it later. The independent review of education will possibly be the single biggest transformation opportunity for education and will, perhaps, encompass and embody all the issues and wrinkles that need to be ironed out across the education system. That is an important point. The Member is absolutely correct: had that review been rolled out before now, perhaps the Member from Strangford would not have needed to pop the Bill in front of us. <BR /> <BR />Like the party opposite, the Ulster Unionist Party will support this stage of the Bill, but with serious health warnings.”
“I thank the Minister for her encouraging answer. The Minister is fiscally responsible in her outlook, and she should be commended for that. There are obvious financial burdens in providing new rail networks or opening up older ones. Does the Minister accept that reopening the Lisburn to Antrim railway line might be one of the most cost-effective options available to her?”
“I welcome the Minister to her first box. She is no stranger to the box and giving information. <BR /> <BR />I have been contacted by many groups that will fall through the cracks in the transition period between Peace IV and Peace V funding. There does not seem to be anything to catch them. Will the Minister update the House on any of the shared education projects that may fall foul of lack of funding between Peace IV and Peace V, and any steps that she has taken to address that?”
“<BR /> <BR />The House has a moral obligation to the victims and survivors of institutional abuse, but so do the organisations that ran the institutions: the Churches and others. I understand that discussions with those organisations about their financial contribution to redress are ongoing, but let me repeat my party's call that those organisations should deposit funds up front to relieve the pressure on the public purse. The Ulster Unionist Party would rather that those bodies had overpayments returned to them than for the Executive to have to chase them for funds retrospectively. We support the motion.”
“<BR /> <BR />The victims and survivors of historical institutional abuse found themselves in the wrong place against their will through no fault of their own. Today, many again find themselves on the wrong side of the authorities. In evidence to the Committee for the Executive Office in mid-May, the lead official reported that 166 applicants had submitted incomplete forms, while 109 more required information from the institutions in which they were abused. The Committee Chair made it clear that the delays are acceptable. I agree, just as I agree that we need to do more to ensure that the application process does not re-traumatise victims and that the outcomes are more consistent than they are at present.”
“The ombudsman described the regime as featuring "systemic maladministration". Little wonder, then, that we are where we are today, hearing evidence of further disappointment, delay and dysfunction in the delivery of redress for victims and survivors of historical institutional abuse. It appears that systemic failure really is systemic, above and beyond any single scheme. <BR /> <BR />Let us join together in common purpose to fix the problem. Let us remind ourselves that we must not prioritise the integrity of the process of government over the people whom we are here to serve. Let us recall that error often accounts for significantly more money going to the wrong place than fraud does.”
“Members need only read the Hansard reports of the Committee for the Office of the First and deputy First Minister to understand why there was a root-and-branch review of the VSS in 2014. As recently as last week, at a sitting in the House, we reflected on the report from the Northern Ireland Public Services Ombudsman on the delivery of the personal independence payment (PIP) benefit.”
“That came four days before Sir Anthony told victims and survivors that they deserved an apology, that there should be a permanent memorial on the Stormont estate and that they were entitled to financial compensation, not that any amount of money can make up for the lost life opportunities suffered by so many through no fault of their own. <BR /> <BR />Now, we are back, and the redress board is in place to finally deliver for victims and survivors. How disappointing, then, that delivery is not what it should be? We have form in that regard. Some Members will recall the introduction of the Victims and Survivors service (VSS) for victims of the Troubles. Those early days were characterised by dysfunction, delay and disappointment for the thousands of victims and survivors who had waited years and even decades for help.”
“Many feared that he would prove to be an establishment man who would protect the state and its agents. However, on that winter's day, Sir Anthony told the victims and survivors of historical institutional abuse that he believed them. They had been abused physically, psychologically and sexually over the 73-year period from 1922 to 1995. That day, 20 January 2017, was their day in the sun, and the relief, the vindication and the hope for better days ahead were tangible. <BR /> <BR />That was 1,627 days ago. The intervening period has seen those victims and survivors plunged back into frustration and despair. It is a dark period that casts a long shadow of shame on those who abused devolution. First, there was the collapse of Stormont.”
“This is the first chance that I have had to speak on the topic. I welcome all the sentiments that Members have shared so far. We can all look back on great days in our lives, whether that is the day we got married, the day a child was born or the day a friend or you got a great job. It might seem strange to suggest that victims and survivors of historical institutional abuse could ever have had a great day, but they did. That day was Friday 20 January 2017. No one who attended the hotel in south Belfast where Sir Anthony Hart delivered his report on historical institutional abuse could have failed to be moved by what they saw. Dozens of victims and survivors were feeling anxious, nervous and suspicious about what the former High Court judge was going to say.”
“She was told, "You have no authority in this meeting"; we do not want to see our local government descending into such controversial arguments and degenerating, although our local councillors are, obviously, very high-performing in that regard. <BR /> <BR />We support the Bill.”
“Balance is also needed, perhaps through further regulation in the future, to ensure that we work together where we can. We have all-party groups here on mental health, suicide prevention and addiction and dual diagnosis. We also have one on social isolation. While it is really good to use social media and other media for meetings and so on, it is better to meet in person where we can. Hopefully, those things will be picked up in further regulation. <BR /> <BR />The Member for Strangford talked about the ability to use social media to host meetings and the need for them to be governed really well in terms of fairness. We just have to think back a number of months to a council meeting in England that resulted in Jackie Weaver becoming someone with whom we are all familiar.”
“Perhaps it will open an avenue whereby working in councils and in local government may be advantageous for them. That would be really good.”
“I thank the Minister for bringing back the Bill and for the manner in which she has brought it back. I thank her staff for their work on the Bill and in particular for their diligence in making changes to it. It is good that the Minister was indeed listening. <BR /> <BR />I will pick up on a point made by the Member for Strangford about hybrid meetings and remote meetings. There is no doubt that remote meetings will be better for some people. The Finance Minister was in the Chamber earlier, and I was able to ask him what it is going to be like for civil servants who want to work from home post-pandemic and whether lessons have been learnt. We need a measured approach for those whom it does indeed suit, such as single-parent families and women in particular.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I thank the Minister for his recognition of the sterling efforts of people right across Northern Ireland and, indeed, in my constituency on the level of vaccine uptake. I thank the Minister, his Department and the trust for the "Grab a jab" initiative at the weekend. Is it too early to ask the Minister for an update on how popular that has been? Will he join me in commending the South Eastern Trust for its "Grab a jab, get a poke" initiative whereby people were given a free ice cream with the jab this week?”
“I welcome the Minister's positive answer. Does he agree that, whilst there is a balance to be struck that enables the multiple benefits that he explained come from working from home, there may also be benefits for those who find it hard to gain employment, particularly single-parent families and women, and that there may be benefits beyond those that he has already identified?”
“You are clearly a Minister who tells people what you are going to do and who then delivers on your promises. Today, you have delivered the good news on what you promised to do. As the mental health spokesperson for the Ulster Unionist Party, it is great to take part in the announcement today. <BR /> <BR />The publication is very welcome. The Minister is well aware of pressures, particularly around child and adolescent mental health. I know that the Minister also recognises the sterling work of Pure Mental NI and the Crisis Cafe, among other youth groups. What commitments from the strategy might help to transform child and adolescent mental health services?”
“In 2017, the Housing Executive commissioned an independent construction certification body to examine cavity wall insulation in Housing Executive and privately owned homes in Northern Ireland. That report found that 63% of the Housing Executive dwellings surveyed had cavity wall insulation that was non-compliant with current industry standards. I will finish with this question: can the Minister provide an update on that work stream and any other actions that she has taken to address this important matter? We support the motion.”
“which probably refers back to when I was a child,”
“None of us across the House accepts that the conditions and standards that our constituents have to live in and endure are appropriate, so I pose this question: are we collectively — I use the word "collectively" because there are no stand-alone Ministries in 2021 — doing all that we can to responsibly tackle and address this important issue? I note that the Member who proposed the motion spoke about the need to tackle the issues collectively and collegiately. <BR /> <BR />It has been identified that cavity wall insulation in much of the Northern Ireland Housing Executive stock is non-existent, insufficient or generally of poor quality, which can lead to severe cases of dampness and mould. Indeed, the Northern Ireland Housing Executive stated:”
“However, there are many examples of homes with severe mould and dampness that would fail to meet any of the standards set out, but there is little by way of a joined-up, proactive approach to that. Indeed, in most cases, constituents are advised that the mould and damp are a consequence of lifestyle choices, such as a lack of heating, too much heating or a lack of ventilation, causing condensation to develop. They are told that this condensation creates mould and damp in the house. We have all been there and heard those reasons, and, sometimes, there may be an element of truth to them. However, there is no doubt that, where condensation and mould exist, the overriding factor is a lack of cavity wall insulation or, indeed, the wrong type of cavity wall insulation.”
“The Housing Executive stock condition survey, which was carried out by Savills in 2015, highlighted that the required investment, at 2015 prices, to meet the tenantable repair standard over 30 years for all properties was in the region of £5·84 billion, which is an incredible amount, and that the total cost to meet the commonly adopted standards was £6·7 billion. Given that the report and recommendations are now six years old, can the Minister — this may be hard for her to do — provide an update on the progress made on that? <BR /> <BR />If we look at the Department for Communities statutory minimum fitness standards for housing, we see that one of the criteria is that a home should be:”
“<BR /> <BR />This is still an important issue that affects far too many households across Northern Ireland, and it has been a scourge for many years. There are many examples of families and individuals living in unacceptable conditions in constituencies across Northern Ireland, some of which I have seen at first hand, and which many Members will discuss today. Dampness and mould can have a detrimental impact on our health, as we know. The first thing that I want the Minister to respond to is this: how does she intend to address the high level of instances of dampness and mould in Housing Executive stock? I am sure that it is in her hands to do so. <BR /> <BR />Northern Ireland faces a housing crisis that is compounded by the poor state of some of our housing stock.”
“I thank the Member who proposed this important motion, which we are in favour of. My colleague Andy Allen apologises that he is unable to contribute to this important debate, Minister. However, he has fed into the remarks that I will make. Before I read those out, I think back to when I grew up in a Housing Executive house on the Low Road in Lisburn that I shared with my five brothers and sisters and my mum and dad. That was in the 1970s and 1980s, and there was no central heating or double glazing. The window frames were made of metal, and ice used to form on the inside. Black mould and damp were constant companions, and it was a battle for my mum and dad to tackle them with bleach and cleaning fluids. It was not acceptable in the late 1970s and 1980s, and it is not acceptable in 2021.”
“I thank the Minister for that detailed answer about housing stress in West Tyrone. The Minister is aware that Lagan Valley is probably one of the most popular places to live and to bring up a family. How does Lagan Valley compare with West Tyrone with regard to housing stress and need?”
“We intend to speak on the Bill in the coming weeks to ensure that there is provision for the good and effective use of local government at council level. We know that local government, which is very much at the interface with our communities, provides an essential function. We need to ensure that we empower our local government institutions to deliver on their mandate and their promises. That is not in any way to put a spoke in their wheel, but we have oversight to make sure that any legislation that we enact is fit for purpose, that it is given time to be scrutinised and that it adds value rather than taking it away. <BR /> <BR />We will support accelerated passage only for the parts of the Bill that are appropriate.”
“I echo the words of the Member across the Chamber. Accelerated passage has been talked about, probably by all parties, and, at times, there is fear that we do not have the time to scrutinise legislation and ensure that it is fit for purpose. We have to be mindful that, whilst the motion is a reaction to the COVID-19 pandemic, with regard to some of the measures in the Bill, when we need to put the brakes on and come to an arrangement about what to do about the Bill, we need to be mature enough to do that. <BR /> <BR />The Ulster Unionist Party certainly has a few issues with clauses 2 and 3. We feel that those can be amended and worked with, and I thank the Minister for not moving clause 2.”
“I thank the Member for those words. I fail to see how my amendment does not support what she is doing. We are in the midst of a pandemic. We need to account for every penny. What I suggest is that, when the need is there, let us ensure that it is there. However, when it is not there, we cannot be tied to something that is going to be a financial burden on taxpayers, who speak both English and Irish, by the way.”