Robbie Butler
Lagan Valley · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Officials highlighted that alignment was provided through existing EU-derived arrangements and that coherence with existing regulatory frameworks was identified as a main consideration.”
“I note that the Member for Strangford agrees: she understands the value of our fisheries in those areas. There are other complexities. The Isle of Man Government have now done a bit of a circle around that island, which makes it difficult for our fishers from Portavogie, Kilkeel and Portaferry to craft and graft a living from some of the…”
“The Committee took the opportunity to question officials on several issues and highlight matters warranting scrutiny at Committee Stage but was not limited to those areas.”
“As the Minister said, they have possibly been viewed as competing demands, but they are not competing demands, because clean water is part of sustainable food production.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am glad to see language in the Bill on the sustainability of the aquaculture sector, and I want to lean in a bit on that. Aquaculture pastimes have, perhaps, been underutilised, whether they relate to the angling fraternity or other river and water users.”
“Today, I want to talk about a very talented young girl from Lisburn called Freya Terris. Freya, who is 17 years old, attends Friends' School and studies the piano under former Lisburn resident Rory Dowse. Freya is an incredibly accomplished young pianist and has performed in the Ulster Hall.”
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“I thank the Minister for being here to hear this really important debate. I thank the Chair and members of the Education Committee for inputting to the consultation. The Committee spent some time agreeing the questions that went into the consultation. I put on record my thanks to the people who put the consultation together, particularly Louise. I thank the teachers, pupils and parents who contributed to the consultation returns. If there is one thing that it has shown us, it is that the public, teachers and pupils are as divided on academic selection as we are. I am glad that we have not hankered too much in the debate to talk about the percentages and the returns, because that does not provide the answer.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. Does he agree that retaining public confidence in such a crisis is essential and that, at times such as this, all Ministers should ensure that, when they speak in public, they do so on the basis of fact rather than generalisations?”
“That process will come with a cost but will surely have incredible benefits down the line in preparing our children to deal with mental health challenges throughout their life. That can be described as a process of "invest to save".”
“We need to make sure that there is significant investment in and access to quality nurture- and resilience-building initiatives, with increased mental health resources for all our schoolchildren.”
“With a mounting series of seriously fiscally overspent projects — this has been going on for many years — it is really important that the Department, the Committee and the Minister provide the necessary scrutiny not only to deliver the project but to deliver it as close to budget as possible and on time. <BR /> <BR />No one can be content with the complexity of our education system. Perhaps that complexity contributes to the large budget. Regardless of the educational sector that our pupils come from and of their religion and faith or none, we are all aware of the need to tackle mental ill health and well-being in our schools because it is part of a preventative strategy. Mental ill health, like COVID, is a problem for all, and I would like to see a greater emphasis on it with regard to the Estimates and budgetary allocations.”
“The Department needs to have that increased demand supported with resource in order to tackle the issue and to help to deliver the best education possible for those vulnerable children who require additional support in their education and in many other areas in order to be a success in life and be the best that they can be. The recent announcement of multiple consultations by the Education Authority could prove pointless if they are not guaranteed and underpinned by the promise of financial and resource support. Our SEN pupils deserve better. <BR /> <BR />The Department of Education has also seen increased spending on the Strule campus, which has sadly been delayed until 2025.”
“The Department was able to secure significant additional funding through the in-year monitoring rounds process, which contributed to the reduction in the Education Authority's reported overspend to somewhere in region of £0·5 million. However, as those allocations were a one-off, there continue to be significant pressures going into 2020-21. <BR /> <BR />One of the major pressures on the financial resources of the Department of Education is the significant rise in cases that require support from the special educational needs services right across Northern Ireland. The Department has seen the numbers increase by over 20% in five years.”
“I ask them to do that again this week so that we see a return to collective thinking. <BR /> <BR />I also pay tribute to all those involved in the education sector, because, as I said last week, teachers and support staff are on their knees. As has been said many times, in terms of the budgets for which each Department is responsible, the education budget is over £2 billion. That sounds like an awful lot of money, but, with the pressures that are on education, it is, unfortunately, not enough for the factors that need to be addressed. The Department of Education reported a £2·8 million underspend, and the Education Authority reported a £0·5 million overspend, which should be seen as a warning.”
“I pay tribute to the many officials from across all Departments, not just the Department of Education, involved in developing the Estimates and Budget reports. I thank the Minister for bringing them to us today. <BR /> <BR />If you will indulge me, Mr Speaker, I would like to pay my respects to a friend and ex-neighbour who died at the weekend from COVID. She was not at the average age of 82, did not have underlying conditions and will no longer be with her family. All of us, including those who compile these reports, probably have friends or family who are involved and are under great pressure. Last week, the Executive Ministers worked tremendously well to pull together something that, although very difficult for people to understand, has the potential to save lives.”
“It is good to get a figure, and the First Minister gave us that information last week. The Committee has been asking for that information for a number of weeks. Will the Minister give us a commitment that he will produce something akin to the Department of Health's dashboard to keep parents, teachers and pupils aware of the weekly figures throughout this crisis?”
“I thank the Minister for attending this morning. I join Pam Cameron in paying tribute to the families who have lost loved ones this week due to COVID. I am sure that the First Minister will join me in that. I also pay tribute to the many teachers who have been on their knees for a number of weeks and have done their best in our schools. <BR /> <BR />Schools are facing ongoing pressures. Will the First Minister give a commitment that the Executive will support the Finance Minister and the Education Minister in providing what is required for the development of blended learning and online facilities that may be required for further school omissions? Will she also give a commitment that all evidence taken in respect of further school closures will be from the Chief Scientific Adviser and the Chief Medical Officer?”
“The Member paints a really grim picture of the link between criminal gangs and human trafficking. Does he believe that we need to target our efforts here towards looking at those international links between criminal gangs?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. He speaks well on the topic, and, as someone who also voted Remain, I think that it would be great to have those voices representing Remainers. He made a good point about the Irish Government. Would it not have been good for Sinn Féin to use the seats that it has at Westminster to make that very point?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I will be as brief as I can. As a unionist Remain voter, I remain turned off by the rhetoric of many American, EU and Irish politicians who do not understand the Good Friday Agreement and who detract from what is happening and what the Assembly is trying to do. Whilst, I do agree that Boris Johnson and his ilk have been ill-informed about the people of Northern Ireland, similarly, politicians across the world have been ill-informed about the uniqueness of the people of Northern Ireland.”
“Given the scale of interest in and input to the pre-paper consultation, I see no equity across subjects. I do not see any impact assessment for those whom these measures may affect most. How many of the post-consultation CCEA recommendations made it into the Department's final paper?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer and, in particular, his support for financing such projects when he was on Lisburn City Council. Can he give a further commitment that groups such as Keep Northern Ireland Beautiful and the councils will be supported financially by his Department to continue their good work?”
“Has the Minister had discussions with his counterparts in London about protections that will be given to ensure that NI goods do not face competitive disadvantage or discrimination in the GB market after Brexit?”
“I thank the Minister for her commitment to the renewable energy scheme. Given how dependent households are on imported oil for home heating and that around 300 independent oil suppliers operate across Northern Ireland, what steps will her Department take to ensure that those operators are part of the solution and are encouraged to diversify?”
“Does the Member agree that the assessors, who are much maligned at times, are doubly stressed and that that is compounded for them because they can see the need but know that it will not happen with this system?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I think that she raises a good point, because we have all talked about who is impacted by this failure in the system: carers, clinicians and families.”
“Perhaps we will free up a bed in the health system by moving somebody who can be cared for at home, which is where most people want to be, and be with their loved ones. <BR /> <BR />The purpose of the debate is to relieve the terminally ill and their families of that burden at the very time when they need it most. We need to try to ensure that, when people die, they do so with dignity. It is a job for our Minister to look to see what she can do, and it is up to us to support her in any way in which we can. We support the motion.”
“Clinicians are reluctant to give a time, because there is evidence that people live to the point of that diagnosis, when they could perhaps live longer, which is obviously what everybody wants to do. Time is precious and should be spent making memories. That is what should be concentrated on. <BR /> <BR />There has been some conversation about the scale of the problem in Northern Ireland, because we may not know how many people on the waiting list will be affected. According to the Marie Curie report, the financial burden is somewhere in the region of £3,000 to £3,300. There may be a benefit, however, because if we can support those people to live at home, perhaps we can ease the burden somewhere else.”
“<BR /> <BR />I agree that DWP has failed on a number of issues, particularly on this one. If it had moved on the advice of the reports, we would not be having this discussion. I would welcome DWP listening in to this debate and making the necessary changes. I hope that we can act in Northern Ireland for the people whom we support. The PIP process has many failings but particularly this one, because time is a luxury for those who have a terminal diagnosis. With modern diagnostics, we know about comorbidities. There are increasing treatments and so on, making it even harder for our clinicians, increasing the burden on them to be tied down to a time.”
“The DS1500 form had been used, and the clinician made a judgement that the person in question would live for 12 months, which meant that they fell foul of the rule. The reality was that the person lived for three months. We worked with them to go through the appeals process, and the claim was actioned retrospectively, but that is not good enough, because that person lived with that fight for that time. The discussions in and around the family of someone who is terminally ill are not the normal discussions that we have, because they are preparing for a funeral and a burial. Someone who is in a low-income home will be worrying about those things and asking, "How can I get buried?" and "Will I be leaving a debt that my family will have to live with?". This is 2020, and those conversations should not be happening.”
“We will probably all talk about the findings of the Rader review. The review's report outlined 16 issues, but there is one that jumped out at all of us because of its personal nature and how it could affect the people around us and our constituents. I am going to talk briefly about something that my Lagan Valley colleague mentioned. We term this "welfare and benefits", but that is not what it is. I really want to see it changed to "social security" and for the whole tone of what we are debating to be one of how we support people when they need the help that is there. <BR /> <BR />Lots of us will have had experiences. My office dealt with a case last year that was very sad, and I know that Kellie was emotional when she shared something that was very personal to her. The case that came into my office last year was quite shocking.”
“I support the motion that was proposed by Kellie and Paula. I thank them both for it. I do not think that the tone of the debate will change. I think that they were right when they said that we have a Minister who is compassionate about these issues and who is people-centred. I want to record my thanks to all the community stakeholders and voluntary and community groups that have lobbied for years for these changes, and, in particular, Marie Curie, which has been relentless in pushing the message.”
“Minister, in your answer to Mr McGuigan question, you mentioned the active travel initiative. You have shown great leadership in that respect. Will you outline any conversations that you have had with councils on planning matters, particularly area planning, and tell us how we, you and your Department can partner with councils to ensure that this is embedded right down to community and societal level?”
“He even gave some credit to his Minister with regard to infrastructure and transport. Those things should not be seen as barriers, but, until you speak to some of the advocates for adults with hearing difficulties and deafness, you do not realise that, sometimes, things are missed. I pay tribute to those working in the Health Department, including the trusts, who provide help and assistance to the community and voluntary sector, and to the National Deaf Children's Society for giving us some information on this issue today. It is key to remember that it is about early identification, early diagnosis, early remedial action and, most importantly, early support to give those children the best chance and start in life.”
“That isolation is not just in terms of family or work; it is an issue that is felt society-wide. <BR /> <BR />The pressures in education have been well addressed. There will also be barriers with regards to employment prospects if we do not address the issues early. There should be no barrier to anybody doing what they want to do if we can get the help in early. We need to give those young people as much of a vision and aspiration as we can. <BR /> <BR />I think that Colin McGrath talked about the need for cross-departmental working. When it comes to this issue, it is absolutely evident; I do not think that anybody will say that that is not the case. He picked out the need, for instance, for Communities to ensure that there are no barriers and that it is easy for people to access benefits.”
“<BR /> <BR />At the Health Committee, I learned that 90% of children who are diagnosed as deaf or hard of hearing come from a family where there are no hearing difficulties. So those families are not equipped with the skills, knowledge and resources to deal with the challenges being faced by those young people. You will know that the Minister has made an early commitment — even during COVID — to make mental health and well-being a significant priority. The impact on those who are deaf or have a hearing difficulty is that they are four times more likely to suffer from poor mental health, anxiety and loneliness. I know that Sinéad Bradley will testify that it is one of those societal hurts and pressures that we are facing, and the deaf community will understand what that means.”
“I thank the proposer of the motion for bringing it to the House today. My party and I will support the motion. I also welcome the tone of the debate so far. <BR /> <BR />When I was a member of the Health Committee, the National Deaf Children's Society lobbied heavily and brought to the fore something that many of us are ignorant about, and that is the pressures faced by the deaf and hard of hearing community when accessing just about everything. I know that many Members have touched on some of those difficulties, but we need to bear that in mind when we discuss the motion. The motion points directly to early diagnosis, identification and the much-needed support for not only the children but, crucially, the families.”
“Can the Minister advise the House as to whether the Department was involved in the design of the overall recovery revitalisation programme in order to achieve a consistent approach across councils? I accept that there needs to be a level of flexibility. However, consistency is also important.”
“I appreciate the Member giving way. It is good that there is some levity in here at times. Alan's work is outstanding, and he does a good job on the Health Committee. I had a phone call this morning about a lady who is just under 60 and is now on a ventilator due to COVID. I live in BT28, and restrictions were put in place there. By the way, I agree with you that some of the restrictions feel draconian, but, in a time of pandemic, we must ensure public safety, and it is important that we do not confuse the messaging in here in any shape or form. Whether an MLA is speaking in a Committee or elsewhere, they need to be up to date on all the information and ensure that they are there with regard to the messaging from the Chief Medical Officer and the Chief Scientific Officer.”
“Ensuring that regulations like these come forward in good time to get the level of scrutiny that they deserve. Why? Because we need to give the public every single bit of confidence that we can. We need to show leadership, adhere to the restrictions ourselves and ensure that we set that example as political leaders and public servants.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention, but I think that he is totally off skew. This is not grandstanding; it is stating facts. The Business Committee, on which I sit, agreed to those mechanisms if there was a need. I would suggest to the Member that there is a need because we are in a crisis situation. These are unparalleled and unprecedented times. It is not grandstanding; it is not politics. It is the lives of my family, of your family and everybody in our communities. Really, could we not have come in for half a day? This is not days of work; this is a two-hour debate happening today. It is important that we do not grandstand, to be fair. It is important that we do not politic and thrash the life out of things that do not need to be discussed. This is about improving what we do.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. I wholeheartedly agree because one of the things that was missing from here when we went into restricted Assembly business was that we had a reduction in written and oral questions. That is not the case now. We perhaps missed an opportunity in the summer when the mechanisms did exist. We could have come in here to bring in the regulations a number of weeks ago. We could have come in, in short turn, to do small amounts of business. Perhaps, as the Member has rightly said, that would have reduced the risk of conflicting and mixed messages.”
“That is why we need a collegiate voice from our Executive Office. That is why need our First and deputy First Minister standing side by side, giving that message, not contradicting each other and knowing what each other is saying. That is what the people of this country deserve regardless of where they are from.”
“I will accept all and every bit of help that I can get from every office". This is everybody's responsibility. <BR /> <BR />I will return to the issue of face coverings. In my role as education spokesperson, that is probably one area on which there has been a lot of debate recently with regard to teachers, pupils and the messaging from our scientific and medical officers about who does not need to wear a covering in certain circumstances. This is about risk mitigation. It is not just about risk assessment; it is about dynamic risk assessment. This is about balancing what we are building into our future, what we can keep open and to what we can expose our kids. I am not talking about coronavirus; I am talking about their education, their societal well-being and their mental health.”
“I know a little bit — I always go back to it because I had 16 wonderful years in the Fire Service — about something called "span of control", which is the terminology used when you deal with a crisis or a big event. Everybody has a limited capacity to deal professionally with a certain amount of work, regardless of how good you are. That is why, in the Fire Service, in the Prison Service, in the Police Service, in nursing and in every profession, the workload is spread. It is to make sure that things do not fall through the cracks. This is not politics; this is people's lives. Let us get our act together. I want TEO to hear that loudly from the Chamber today. I hope that the Minister can address that. Perhaps he will square his shoulders and say, "No, Robbie, I am big enough. I can take it". I hope that he is humble enough to say, "No.”
“In doing that, it is incumbent on us to ensure that we are not weeks and weeks late in bringing those regulations and messages to the people who require them. After all, they are our sons and daughters, our mothers and fathers, our relations, and the people who underpin business, education and the health service on which we rely. <BR /> <BR />When we give a message, as we do today — we are talking about regulations, many of which have been superseded — people will listen but be confused. That is why I plead with TEO to step up. There are four Ministers in that office. Four, not one: four. Why are they not here today? I do not get cross very often, but I am cross today. I do not believe that it should fall solely on the Health Minister's shoulders at a time of crisis. <BR /> <BR />Mr Deputy Speaker, I ask you to indulge me.”
“Let us be honest: as has been said, it can be conflicting to read and interpret some of the regulations. I find it OK, and, through my office, I am able to answer many questions. <BR /> <BR />One of the problems that we face in 2020 is the threat of fake news. When you search posts on Facebook and the internet, it is almost impossible to find the right information. The posts are very believable. Stuff is shared with me, and I am sure that people send items to Members that look like regulations or advice, and could even be stamped, but which are desperately dangerous. Facebook and Twitter — they make enough money out of it — just like us, have a role to play in cleaning up their act and making sure that, at a time of crisis, people can access the best and most relevant information.”
“I will refer to them — the Deputy Speaker will hold me to task if I do not — and it is important that we get our act together not only in the Assembly but in the Executive. Petty squabbling can be kept for another day, because the very lives of people across Northern Ireland depend on the leadership of people in the Chamber, whether you are an Executive Minister or an MLA. People follow our example, regardless of what they say on Facebook and Twitter, or what is said on the news, and the public beatings that we take. People really do watch and act on what we do, not on what we say. <BR /> <BR />I will turn to the regulations. We discredit and do a disservice to the population across Northern Ireland in its adherence to many of the rules and regulations that have been meted out, face coverings, in particular.”
“I welcome the Health Minister here today as he brings these regulations — SRs, as we call them — before the Assembly. When he was Chief Whip and leader of the party, I saw less of him than you guys are seeing him in the Chamber. I do not say that to raise a smile. I say it because he seems to be the Executive Minister not only with the biggest portfolio but with the biggest responsibility, which has been thrust on him, once again, by TEO deflecting work. I thank Mr McGrath for his comments on that. Let us get real, people: this is a crisis of monumental proportions, as the Health Minister laid out at the start of the pandemic. <BR /> <BR />The restrictions are somewhat old.”
“I thank the Minister for his recognition of the sterling work of the staff and his constant support for them throughout the pandemic. <BR /> <BR />With regard to car parking, many of our sites are shrinking, as he rightly pointed out — the South Eastern Trust's Lagan Valley Hospital and the Royal Victoria Hospital in Belfast, in particular. Will the Minister agree with me and commit himself to some work with his Executive colleagues, particularly the Department for Infrastructure, with regard to sustainable transport, which would, in fact, improve the environment and improve mental and physical health?”
“I thank the Minister for his answers. Face masks are one form of prevention. Is the Minister confident that enough time, facilities and resources are being made available for the cleaning of buses during and after use?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. We spend a lot of time together on the all-party group (APG) on mental health and suicide prevention and the recently facilitated APG, from the Member for East Londonderry, on dual diagnosis. You mentioned the need for collaboration and for agencies to work together to tackle this problem, and that is absolutely true. Do you agree that it is to the detriment of some Departments that the Desertcreat College did not go ahead, given that a lot of time spent together, between these services, is multi-agency? A training opportunity would have been really useful so that they could be better at their jobs when on the streets serving the people of Northern Ireland.”
“I thank the First Minister for her answer. Some good work has indeed already happened out of NDNA. Is the First Minister confident that nothing has happened during the COVID pandemic to shake the relationship within the Executive and affect delivery on all the NDNA promises?”
“I thank the First Minister for her answer to Mr Allister's supplementary question. On the topic of confused messaging, why would the increasingly erratic MP for East Antrim have formed the opinion that the First Minister was not on the same page as the Health Minister about local restrictions in Ballymena and Belfast?”
“If socialism cannot show anything but opposition and fails to show tolerance or accommodation, it will not be for me.”
“I do not think that too many in the House, including me, would disagree with that statement. He talked about the need to embrace the centenary and show generosity, which obviously works both ways. <BR /> <BR />Sinéad Ennis spoke about her frustration about this type of society and how we treat each other, but I believe that that is a mirror that we need to hold up to ourselves. Matthew O'Toole talked about respect and consistency, which I echo. Justin McNulty spoke, in Irish, about relying on each other for shelter. I cannot do it in Irish, Justin, but thank you for those words. Jim Allister reminded us of the need to show generosity in next year's centenary celebrations. The final comments were made by Gerry Carroll. That is why I will not be a socialist.”