Robbie Butler
Lagan Valley · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Officials highlighted that alignment was provided through existing EU-derived arrangements and that coherence with existing regulatory frameworks was identified as a main consideration.”
“I note that the Member for Strangford agrees: she understands the value of our fisheries in those areas. There are other complexities. The Isle of Man Government have now done a bit of a circle around that island, which makes it difficult for our fishers from Portavogie, Kilkeel and Portaferry to craft and graft a living from some of the…”
“The Committee took the opportunity to question officials on several issues and highlight matters warranting scrutiny at Committee Stage but was not limited to those areas.”
“As the Minister said, they have possibly been viewed as competing demands, but they are not competing demands, because clean water is part of sustainable food production.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am glad to see language in the Bill on the sustainability of the aquaculture sector, and I want to lean in a bit on that. Aquaculture pastimes have, perhaps, been underutilised, whether they relate to the angling fraternity or other river and water users.”
“Today, I want to talk about a very talented young girl from Lisburn called Freya Terris. Freya, who is 17 years old, attends Friends' School and studies the piano under former Lisburn resident Rory Dowse. Freya is an incredibly accomplished young pianist and has performed in the Ulster Hall.”
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“I thank the departmental officials, particularly Ciarán and Martina, for the work that they have done and for sitting in on just about every all-party group meeting that we had, and we had many. I also thank the Minister and her Department for bringing forward the Bill. It is a really important Bill. We had the Consideration Stage of two Bills yesterday — the Adoption and Children Bill and the School Age Bill — and today we have had the Consideration Stage of the Justice (Sexual Offences and Trafficking Victims) Bill and are now having this Bill's Consideration Stage. It just shows what we can do when we put our minds to it. <BR /> <BR />Some of the input tonight has been really good. Mark Durkan mentioned the thought given and the collegiate approach taken to working on amendments. Trying to get the Bill right is really important.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I was looking through the voting matrix, and my party was minded to support the amendment that you proposed. Is the Member in a position to indicate what may come? I am passionate about this. I am understanding of the work that went into it and what might come at the next stage. What is your estimate of what a levy might be? I agree with you that your amendment maybe lacked ambition rather than anything else.”
“I thank the Minister and the Chair of the Justice Committee for those points. We will continue to listen, but I have not heard anything that suggests that we will change our minds on the matter. <BR /> <BR />In conclusion, I simply urge Members to vote against amendment No 13 and in favour of amendment Nos 14 and 15. I ask that the Assembly gives victims of modern slavery the greatest chance to recover from their exploitation and to bring the perpetrators to justice.”
“As long as you keep it to no more than a minute, Minister.”
“I thank the Minister for her intervention. I am sure that she will speak to that. However, the amendments tabled are much more victim-centric. That is not to take away from what anyone is trying to do, but those are the points that need to be teased out in the debate. I will listen to further points that the Minister may make, but there was nothing —.”
“Evidence shows that victims need at least 12 months' support, so I urge the Assembly to give that to them. I strongly support amendment Nos 14 and 15 and urge Members to vote in favour of them. As an Assembly, we have an opportunity to do the right thing and, as has already been said, lead the way with this groundbreaking statutory support. Why would we settle for something less than that in amendment No 13? <BR /> <BR />Common sense says that amendment Nos 14 and 15 provide greater and more certain support to confirmed victims of trafficking, so —”
“It is therefore essential that we adopt the more prescriptive approach of amendment Nos 14 and 15 in order to avoid being unintentionally restrictive in our provision of support to victims. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 15 makes it clear that sections 18(5) and (7) of the Human Trafficking and Exploitation (Criminal Justice and Support for Victims) Act (Northern Ireland) 2015 will apply when determining what type of support will be considered necessary under amendment No 14. The amendments do not include the length of time for which victim support will be given, nor what might be left to chance. Amendment Nos 14 and 15 also leave the door open for the Department to provide additional discretionary support beyond 12 months, if the victim requires it. <BR /> <BR />We are talking about victims' needs here.”
“lacks clarity on exactly how much support would be provided. It fails to provide the certainty that victims who have come through harrowing circumstances and abuse need in order to begin to move forward with their lives. <BR /> <BR />It is clear from the evidence from individuals who are working directly with victims of trafficking that 12 months is the absolute minimum amount of time that it takes for victims to recover from their trauma and abuse. Amendment Nos 14 and 15 provide the certainty and stability of the at least 12 months' support that victims desperately need and depend on during their recovery. When properly supported, victims are also more likely to engage with the police in investigations into their abusers and less likely to be re-trafficked. We need that input from victims in order to help prosecutions succeed.”
“It is too ambiguous to provide, with certainty, the minimum 12 months of support that confirmed victims of modern slavery need in order to recover from their exploitation and trauma. <BR /> <BR />Although amendment No 13 would provide new statutory support to confirmed victims, the wording:”
“On behalf of the Ulster Unionist Party, I will speak to the second group of amendments, which deals with trafficking and exploitation. I pay tribute to the Minister, her Department and the Justice Committee for the collegiate manner in which they have dealt with the Bill. Bar one, there has been a lack of Divisions so far, so I hope that there will be no more Divisions after further debate. <BR /> <BR />I am going to give voice to amendment Nos 14 and 15, which were tabled in the names of Mervyn Storey, Peter Weir and Robin Newton. Although I commend the Committee's intention to provide statutory support to confirmed victims, I, too, am concerned about the wording of amendment No 13.”
“It is not in our gift at the moment, budgets are constrained, and we have lots of things to think about. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the amendment and the Bill. I look forward to its getting on the statute book. Thank you, Minister.”
“That brings serious value and gives a safeguard to measure the terminology that is used and the effectiveness, and the time frame is absolutely right. <BR /> <BR />I am glad that you have allowed us the opportunity to talk about the potential for further amendments at Further Consideration Stage. From my perspective, I have been passionate about the issue, in particular, with regard to premature babies. Studies have said multiple things, but having provision in the Bill that allows us to empower parents, perhaps in conjunction with professionals, to avail themselves of a facility is something that we need to be excited about. I sincerely hope that, in the near future — it is not within the scope of this Bill — we can look at the ambition and perhaps expansion of the Bill to build on the things around SEN and the second funded year.”
“Absolutely. I am sure that Belfast Mum's cheeks will be red. She has been relentless over this past while. It is not just Belfast Mum; it is Tiny Life and Alison McNulty. I pay tribute to a Lagan Valley constituent who has been bending my ear for some time, Rosalind Bloomfield. She will similarly be embarrassed. <BR /> <BR />Minister, credit to you for introducing the Bill and for the manner in which you did so. In a previous debate, we touched on the fact that accelerated passage is not normally appropriate, but, in this instance, it absolutely is. I accept your position on the Bill's ambition and some of the things that have been set aside. I recognise the amendment that you have tabled for today, working with the Education Committee.”
“Today is a good day. We are not getting the Bill right through at this stage, but today is a good day, because the Minister brings to Consideration Stage a valuable Bill that will be life-changing for some young children and families. Fair play to the Minister. Later, Minister Swann will bring the Adoption and Children Bill. Hopefully, that will give the people out there who are listening today some hope that these institutions have serious value and that, when we debate and progress legislation, we can change people's lives. I hope that politicians are also listening to that today.”
“<BR /> <BR />One of the most remarkable aspects of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth's reign will be that she epitomised an attitude of leading by example and of requiring only the level of loyalty that she showed and service that she carried out herself. That was clearly demonstrated when she insisted on adhering to the COVID regulations at the time of her husband's death. The picture of her, sitting alone at the cathedral service, displays a level of humility and leadership that has been evidenced since the early days of her reign in 1952. <BR /> <BR />We will be forever in our Queen's debt. Her heart for Northern Ireland and, indeed, for Anglo-Irish relations has been evidenced many times and should be a marker not only for royalty and those who hold power but for all of us, regardless of background and upbringing. God save the Queen.”
“How do you follow the last words from the Member for Lagan Valley? <BR /> <BR />Yesterday marked 70 years since Queen Elizabeth II ascended the throne. Our 96-year-old Queen is celebrating her platinum jubilee. The Queen has made history, becoming the first British monarch to achieve that milestone. She spent the anniversary of her accession day privately at the Sandringham estate in remembrance of her late father, George VI, whose death, at the age of 56, marked the start of her reign. It is also the first jubilee that the Queen is marking without her husband of 73 years, Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, who, sadly, passed away in April last year at the age of 99.”
“The initial request was made on the back of an assault on a jogger. The pathway is used profusely; in fact, the pathway is preferred to the public pathway. Perhaps the funding may be found under the active travel scheme. A lot of cyclists use that route, and I know they are a priority with regard to the active travel scheme. Perhaps that is an avenue that might be worth pursuing.”
“I thank the Minister for his announcement. Anyone who is involved in rescue services is right at the top of my totem pole of respect. <BR /> <BR />Having worked in a paid search and rescue role with the Fire and Rescue Service, I am aware that the pressures on our voluntary groups are not related just to equipment resources; one pressure relates to training and interoperability. I had the privilege of training with Lough Neagh Rescue when I worked with the Fire and Rescue Service. Might the money extend to paying those volunteers for training days, as well as to identifying other opportunities for the interoperability that is so important for successful outcomes?”
“I thank the Minister for her response to the report and to what is a very challenging situation. The Minister has rightly recognised the difficulty for staff working in prisons, especially in areas like the CSU, which was formerly called the PSU. My party leader asked a question about staff retention and turnover. Staff will be the answer, but it will not just be about numbers, Minister. Is any work being done to ensure that the staff who work in the CSU, which is a more challenging environment in an already hostile environment, will be trained appropriately to meet the need? Is work being done to ensure that there is rotation of staff who work in those areas, because they will be impacted by the challenging people with whom they sometimes work?”
“I would like to add my name to those offering condolences to the family of Maggie Black. They have suffered and put their grief into good work to try to see this through. <BR /> <BR />I am sure that the Minister agrees with me that, having been an early responder to emergency incidents for many years, the Northern Ireland Fire and Rescue Service has had its hands on victims of many different types of incident. Does the Minister agree that, using the learning from the first-class response that it has provided for Northern Ireland over the last 20 or 30 years, many aspects of collaboration could be explored through this potential arrangement?”
“We've got plans on the table, we've got the issues here, but we have to deliver on this." I agree that nothing trumps saving lives. That has to be the priority of the Assembly whenever we address any issue. The solution can and must be found.”
“Road safety is genuinely one of the things at my core because of my experiences, and I want to reduce the risk of traffic accidents for any other family. We literally just got the people in a room. It perhaps goes back to what Daniel said about some of those people who are lobbying to stop the project. They really need to show up and be part of the discussion. Everybody involved in it needs to be part of that discussion. Discussions in isolation are not going to help or bring the project forward. Everybody needs to literally be in the room, show up, say what they have to say and find a solution, because a solution exists. <BR /> <BR />A solution exists, and it should be everybody's priority to say, "We're setting aside everything here.”
“The Member from Strabane said that the A5 may be the most dangerous road in Northern Ireland. I have one such road, the A1, in my constituency, and I have spoken to the Minister at length about it. Similarly, it is a road on which a number of improvements are likely to be made, and I hope that they are, but there is not a hierarchy of projects. <BR /> <BR />I want to point to something that we had some success with in Lisburn. A junction was on the cusp of probably being the subject of a legal wrangle. It involved a junction between Knockmore Road and Ballinderry Road. People had taken different sides. The council had taken a position and sought legal advice. The Department had sought legal advice, and developers were involved in the case.”
“<BR /> <BR />Road traffic incidents are really quite horrific. There is no other way of painting the picture. It is one of the saddest scenes that you will ever come across. Sadly, most of the accidents that I attended involved young men. There are different reasons why crashes happen, but, certainly, dangerous roads are one of them, as are driving conditions, speed, driving attitudes, the nature of the cars — lots of things. Lots of agencies are involved in trying to redress the balance in road safety. In Northern Ireland over these past 20 years there has, in many ways, been great success in addressing road safety. However, the number of incidents is still far too high, and families are still grieving. <BR /> <BR />The discussion about the A5 has been running on for a number of years.”
“I thank Nicola Brogan for securing the debate, and I thank the Minister for her attendance. I want to be on record passing on the condolences of the Ulster Unionist Party to the families, who are still very much grieving, of the three young men who died in tragic circumstances in December. <BR /> <BR />I have stayed behind to talk about this matter because of road safety. I know that we are here to talk about the A5, but, as you know, in my previous job in the Fire and Rescue Service, road safety and attending traffic accidents were very much part of my remit. Sadly, over 16 years, I attended dozens and dozens of incidents. When you attend those incidents, especially if you are responsible for the staff and the crew, the reality is that it is almost worse than turning out to a house fire.”
“Will the Member outline exactly what the pressures will be on the children in those schools and how they will manifest in their education? We have heard quite a lot about that. You are absolutely right, and I do not want anybody to think that that is not foremost in the minds of all Committee members. Will you detail what those pressures will be?”
“Will the Member give way? The Member on the Bench behind me has chuntered a few times about that issue, but the reality is that we are at Consideration Stage. When we talk things out in the Chamber, it is reported by Hansard. We have Further Consideration Stage, where we have another chance to put in what has been said and commended by me, the Bill sponsor and anybody else in the Chamber. Anything that is said is absolutely useful. It is on the record, and it can be used to develop good legislation.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. The Chair of the Committee made a reasonable point around clause 10(2)(k). I do not have much of a problem with that, but the use of the word "stakeholders" in clause 10(2)(l) comes to my attention only because of the concerns raised by the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS) and representatives from the controlled sector about the level of consultation. In this instance, I imagine that the stakeholders are the other sectors. What confidence can you give to the other sectors about the level of collaboration with stakeholders? I imagine that that is what "stakeholders" refers to in that matter.”
“That specific point is a good opportunity for the Bill sponsor to outline in detail what public bodies the Member is referring to in that clause. I would prefer — without clarification at this stage — that the SDLP move that amendment, as it is useful. However, if the Member can give clarification on the public bodies that are being alluded to, we will have that on record, and perhaps that will give confidence.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. She raises a really good point. The question of how we can have clause 5 and new clause 5A has been trotting around my head for the past two days. I imagine, however, that, by not identifying those clauses as being mutually exclusive, the Speaker's Office and the Bill Office are saying that they can kind of sit together and that, while it may be awkward, work can be done to get the best of the benefit out of both. The Bill Office would have picked it up if that would not have been possible.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. A bit like the Member for North Antrim, I spotted subsection (4) as an issue. When I looked through it, I thought, "If Kellie has an issue with this in relation to the Bill, it needs to be codified. Something needs to be put in to clarify what it means". <BR /> <BR />I did not notice the legal provision at subsection (6), which is worth looking at. Maybe, Ms Armstrong, you will consider expanding on it a little. Do you accept that, in addition to anything that is accepted at this stage, we can work towards tying that subsection down and detailing it better so that it does not detract from the purpose of the Bill? In essence, it seems to me that we can do that; we can finesse it to the point where it is a positive amendment.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I have been asked about the bodies to be consulted. You mentioned teachers and governors. Who are those teachers and governors, and where are they from in relation to a new build school, please?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I have intervened in case she moves on too quickly and does not revisit the issue. She will know that I have worked constructively with her and all other Members to ensure that there is potential for the Bill passing, and a good Bill at that. To give her the fairest possible chance, will she articulate what her absolute issues are with proposed new clause 5A in amendment No 23? I have spoken to her about her own amendment, which I am not totally against. There are, however, some issues, as Mr Allister mentioned, with the definition of "community bodies" and what those are. We know that, if we pass it, we cannot take amendment No 27 out. We can explain it a wee bit further. Some clarification of the Member's concerns about proposed new clause 5A would therefore be useful.”
“Does the Member want to put it on the record that the Alliance Party's submission to the independent review will state that it is committed to working towards a single education system in the next mandate?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. To be fair to him, the Member, unlike the Members behind and beside me, refers to the amendments. The Members behind and beside me seem to refer implicitly to the Bill as it was tabled. You have raised a really good point and one that I agree with about how schools in the controlled and maintained sector would be treated if an integrated school did not have the number of places. However, there is an important amendment — it is amendment No 22, which Mr McCrossan will move — that takes away religious demographics and spare places at other schools, which means that no other school would be disadvantaged in that case.”
“I ask the Member to come back to me in a minute or two, if that is OK. I will indicate when I am ready.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I do not have a degree or an A level in English literature, and often I lean into the dictionary to get an alternative word, and it will give you 15 alternative words. However, when you read them, you will see that, in context, sometimes they do not fit the narrative, and in this narrative the word has been changed and an explanation of the word has been given. So, when anybody reads the Bill, they will not have to go to the Oxford dictionary to see what the word means; it is given in the legislation. So, it is a moot point.”
“Will the Member accept that the same issue applies to all other pupils in all other sectors? I am dealing with a constituency matter in which a child is moving between schools, and the schools that have been offered are a Catholic maintained school, a controlled school and an integrated college. The child's preference in this instance is for the controlled school. Preference is there and open to all, but the perceived barriers are not there. It is just one of those issues that all sectors, not just the integrated sector, have to deal with.”
“<BR /> <BR />Our position on the amendments to particular clauses will become apparent as we go through the debate. I spoke to one of the Clerks about it, and there are amendments that can be taken together. For instance, if the Minister chooses to move amendment No 29, which would insert new clause 7A, and clause 7 is still there, both clauses would be in the Bill. We still have the Further Consideration Stage, so there is still work to do with the Bill between now and that stage. We are not necessarily in for too long a night, but there is still work to be done on the Bill. We will do our best to ensure that, if there is a Bill, the Bill that goes through serves the intention that, we believe, it should.”
“I thank the Member for Strangford Mr Weir for giving way. <BR /> <BR />To address the MLA for South Belfast first, there are 71 amendments to the Bill. Those are the "tweaks" that have been offered by Members. We have done the democratic thing and looked at them all. Some we are for, and some we are against, but the reality, as people will see, is that the Ulster Unionist Party is pupil-centric and education-centred and will do what is fair by everyone. We will also do all that we can to protect the other sectors. As I said — I was clear about it — it is not about elevating one sector above another, but nor are we afraid of ensuring that all sectors are represented and, to use a Northern Irish term, given a fair crack of the whip.”
“I do not know how you can do that if you are going to be fiscally responsible, and one of the intents of the Bill is to be fiscally responsible. We know that the Department of Education is under extreme financial pressure. It is £2·4 billion out of our block grant annually. We know that, over the next five years, the pressure is going to increase. The amount of money spent per head on our pupils does not augur well when we look at other jurisdictions. I spoke to the Bill's sponsor about this earlier, and she is aware of it. I hope that she addresses that issue later. <BR /> <BR />The Ulster Unionist Party will work positively with the Bill and the amendments to see a Bill that is fair and just.”
“Sometimes the debate, and the public debate, seems to be that some people seek to put the caveat that the integrated sector is seeing itself as above and elite, and that is definitely not the case. Again, I am a product of a controlled school, a bit like Daniel, from different ends of the country, and the product is the same and the intent is the same. It is the education of our children. The methodology is important here. <BR /> <BR />With regard to the amendments, we will be supporting the amendments that we see as allowing the integrated sector to come onto an even platform. There is one in particular that I will ask the Bill's sponsor to respond to, and that is one with regard to, I think, clause 5, that refers to not allowing religious demographics or empty desks or spaces to be considered with regard to establishing demand.”
“<BR /> <BR />We made a commitment at that time that we would work with the Bill, consult with those whom we needed to consult and listen with both ears open to hear about what could be done with the Bill, because we could not support it in its original form. There are many clauses that, today, we still cannot support if they are not amended. However, amendments have been proposed by the Committee, and we welcome the Department's amendments. We can see that there is a move from the sponsor to amend the Bill to address some of the concerns that were raised. That will be done. I do not propose to go through all of those, because I have a sheet here and it would take me quite a while to detail all the voting intentions of my party. <BR /> <BR />It is worth reiterating the words of Dolores Kelly with regard to the other sectors.”
“I deliberately did not put my name down on the normal running order of Members who wish to speak, because I am interested in listening to what all Members have to say, especially those who have proposed amendments. At the Second Stage of the Bill, we had a really good debate. I was very clear about the Ulster Unionist Party's position on the Bill. Our position has not changed. We want a single education system. Is integrated education a single education system? No, it is not. The Bill sponsor will accept that it is just another sector along with the controlled, maintained and Irish-medium sectors.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I give her an opportunity to clarify and correct her remark about the comments that my party leader made in a video. He did not talk about the Integrated Education Bill or about integrated education. Will the Member reflect on the video that she spoke about?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. I understand that there have been no outbreaks of avian influenza since late December. Will the Minister confirm that? When does he expect to make an announcement on the release of free-range flocks to the outdoors again, on condition that there are no more outbreaks of avian flu?”
“It is good to read the stories from England of retired schoolteachers who have responded to the call and made themselves available to support schools as the time of need has arisen. <BR /> <BR />My time is running wonderfully short, so I will come to the last call of my speech. We have learnt that childcare is the absolute cornerstone of the functioning of all sectors, including education. I ask the Minister for an update on any ongoing work to ensure that financial support is in place for temporary closures of childcare facilities due to COVID-19. <BR /> <BR />I and the Ulster Unionist Party support today's motion.”
“In recent years, it has suffered as much as any area due to the pandemic. <BR /> <BR />All of that is known, of course, but what have we done about it? It is not the role of a principal or board of governors to assess the adequacy and safety of ventilation and air quality in any room, let alone a classroom. It is not the responsibility of a principal or board of governors to assess whether an air filter or air cleaner is required. It is the responsibility of the Minister of Education to ensure that the resources exist to adequately assess the need for and delivery of a ventilation strategy and equipment for every classroom in the country, as required. <BR /> <BR />Whilst the immediacy of the need for ventilation is proven and the point on that well made, so is the need for substitute teachers.”
“For enclosed spaces where people mix in numbers, such as school classrooms, it is vital that every measure available is taken, not only to reduce the risk but to build confidence for those who work and learn there. The Minister recently said that she trusts our principals and teachers to do their best for our children, and, in respect of educational, pastoral and social matters, I wholeheartedly agree with her. They are exceptional in their service to ensure that each of our children develops to their full potential. It is also true, however, that, for our educators and support staff to do that, they need to be in an environment that is absolutely therapeutic, safe and conducive to achieving the intended outcomes. We have a school estate that is, in many cases, old and crumbling, with little in the way of new builds or school maintenance.”
“We have learnt much from the phase that we are in, but, to continue on a trajectory of returning to normality, we must still do our best to mitigate the spread of infection of any and all strains of COVID. The vast majority of the population of Northern Ireland has adhered to the public health messaging by wearing masks when needed and not mixing socially when risk is highest and through their uptake of the vaccination programme. Regularly published data shows that, when we act together on the health advice, we see a decrease in the spread of the virus and in hospitalisations and, by default, an increase in our ability to function as normally as we can.”