John O'Dowd
Upper Bann · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“As I set out in response to the previous question, we have in place the vacant property rate relief scheme and the small business rate relief scheme, which are very successful. I set aside £10 million in the draft Budget for small business rate relief to be invested.”
“I am particularly keen to hear from those impacted by vacant commercial units and especially about how any phased increase can be implemented in a sustainable way that is fair, proportionate and sustainable within the tax system.”
“I outlined my intent to take that approach in my statement on 18 November, alongside the fact that reform of rating policy should support growth, make better use of property and ensure that the system is fair, proportionate and aligned with wider economic objectives.”
“The accelerator will operate alongside our highly successful Back in Business scheme, which has helped to bring over 100 vacant high street properties back into use since May 2024. Those issues have been the subject of considerable interest and comment in the Assembly, and it is right that we grasp the nettle now.”
“There are no circumstances in which a hard border would be good for the people of Ireland; it would not be good for anyone. Those who suggest that are being naive at best and dangerous at worst, in the sense of not understanding this society. <BR /> <BR />Rural communities along the border are one and the same.”
“This announcement represents the next step in that. That said, I also put on record my intention to strengthen support for small businesses. In that vein, £10 million has been set aside in the draft Budget to broaden the impact of the small business rate relief scheme in order to increase the number of businesses that can benefit from it.…”
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“I will in a moment. I look forward to that debate, because challenges will remain with regard to how we deliver our public services, and I look forward to hearing the alternatives from colleagues. Yes, I will give way.”
“If you support the original motion today, that is contrary to your position. It is absolutely contrary to your position. <BR /> <BR />All I am asking for across the Assembly Chamber is unity of purpose. The unity of purpose is that we send out a message with a united voice to the Government, or whomever the new Prime Minister and Chancellor will be — I suspect that there will be a change of Chancellor — to fund this place fairly and then allow the Executive to make decisions on their Budget. Then, there will be a challenge in the Chamber on what the priorities are and on what people believe should be funded over and above other things.”
“I will in a wee second. I cannot understand that position. As I said at the start of my contribution, I can understand party politics at play, but you also have to, from time to time, have a collegiate approach to these matters and accept the reality of the stark figures that are staring out at us. Scotland is funded well above its need to the tune of somewhere in the region of £3 billion. Wales is funded above its need to the tune of £1 billion. I, as Finance Minister, am calling on the British Government to fairly and sustainably fund our Executive.”
“At this stage, Mr Carroll appears to be the only person in the Chamber who wants to support the original motion, which sets out a position that is not in favour of further funding for the Executive; is not in favour of funding for public-sector workers, does not support teachers, does not support healthcare workers and does not support doctors, but he is in support of it.”
“— this is your solution — is to stop Fenians playing football in Casement Park. That is your solution to everything. No matter what debate we have in the Chamber, you bring up Casement Park. It is truly a sectarian argument coming from you as regards that matter, so you will not be coming on the delegation. <BR /> <BR />If Mr O'Toole works out what his position is on support: whether he supports the 75% of his argument that he made today or the 25% of his argument against us, he will make a useful ally if he comes along.”
“It brings me to my point that party politicking and gamesmanship are at play here. I will certainly not be bringing Timothy Gaston along to any engagement with the British Government: he has swallowed their line hook, line and sinker. He is now their spokesperson. He was a spokesperson for the Tories. Now he is a spokesperson for Labour. I know that his ambition is to be a spokesperson for the Reform Party. He certainly will not be coming along as part of any delegation that I will bring to see the new Chancellor of the Exchequer when they turn up because, from his point of view, this place is properly funded; we need to suck it up and get on with it. The only solution that he had”
“Unfortunately, we have seen that a Prime Minister has stood down again in Downing Street, which, I suspect, will delay that engagement. It will certainly have an impact on it in some way. I had hoped that, if not by the end of this week, certainly by next week, we would have reached some sort of conclusion on an offer from the Government, a proper funding package would have been put in place and then I would be able to bring a further draft Budget to the Executive for discussion and future agreement. We are not in that position as a result of antics elsewhere. <BR /> <BR />It is clear that, when you have a debate where the leader of the Opposition, Timothy Gaston of the TUV and Gerry Carroll of People Before Profit are generally in agreement with one another, we are in a very strange and wonderful land.”
“I am not arguing or pushing back against that, but when the leader of the Opposition, by his own admission, argues that the British Government are underfunding this place and that the Executive are therefore right to engage with the British Government and push them on the issue of receiving proper funding, it seems an ill-thought-out argument to make when he comes to the Chamber with a motion that calls on the Executive to finalise the Budget ahead of any conclusion of discussions with the British Government. <BR /> <BR />I have to say that this is part of the shambles that is having to deal with Westminster, but I expected, and, indeed, was scheduled, to have intense engagement with the British Government this week on the need for the Executive to be funded fairly and sustainably.”
“Indeed, if I were to sum up Mr O'Toole's contribution to the debate, it would be in this fashion: he spent 75% of his time telling me that he agreed with me, with the Executive and with the point that the British Government have been underfunding this place and that he would support us in our bids to the British Government for more funding. He then spent the remaining 25% arguing against that point by trying to construct an argument that the Executive and the Finance Minister were in the wrong. We are either right on the issue or we are wrong. <BR /> <BR />I know that there will always be party politics at play in the Chamber. That is OK, as it is part of the debating culture.”
“<BR /> <BR />Perhaps most telling of all is that the figures on which the Opposition have based their case are, by their own admission, merely illustrative, yet that important qualification was tucked away on the final page of the briefing paper. The foundation of their argument is illustrative figures that have been selectively presented for political effect. The need for stable funding is real and widely shared across the Chamber. The motion, however, presents a narrative that is, at best, incomplete and, at worst, fundamentally misleading.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. As I said at the outset when I made my point of order, it is disappointing, if not entirely surprising, that the Opposition have chosen to approach the issue in the way in which they have, rather than by engaging seriously with the substance of the Budget and the very real challenges that are involved in funding and delivering public services here. They appear to be far more interested in chasing headlines and securing sound bites. That was plain to see from the fact that, rather than give the House its place, the Opposition issued a press release yesterday in advance of the debate.”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. My understanding is that the Speaker has made rulings on respect for the House in relation to debates in the House. The leader of the Opposition has complained previously to the Speaker about interventions that I have made in the media prior to debates. The leader of the Opposition has been in the media over the past 24 to 48 hours regarding the motion, speaking about it and engaging in detail on it, but I as Finance Minister cannot enter that debate, given the rulings of the Speaker. Will the Speaker's Office examine how appropriate it is for the leader of the Opposition to act in that way?”
“I also thank my officials in the Department of Finance who brought forward the Bill and officials in other Departments who also had to engage on the Bill. It is another example of how, when the Executive and the Assembly work together, we can introduce important legislation, amend it and reflect on how to best serve this society and improve the lot and the lives of the people whom we all serve. <BR /> <BR />I commend the Bill to the House.”
“I again thank all Members for their contributions and for their engagement with the Bill across all previous stages. As has been noted, I have listened carefully, as have other Ministers, and with interest to the points raised and, where necessary, have made amendments to the Bill to make it better and more effective legislation that reflects the views of Members and those who were called to give evidence. <BR /> <BR />As I said in my opening remarks, the legislation is important and necessary. The Bill's main purpose is to tidy up a range of routine administrative and financial matters. That, however, does not, in any way, undermine the importance of those matters, as it ensures that they are properly regulated. I again thank the Chair and the Committee, the Committee team and officials.”
“<BR /> <BR />I do not intend to rehearse the matters further, as they have been fully debated during earlier stages. The Bill has benefited from detailed scrutiny and constructive engagement by Members, and I believe that it is stronger as a result. I ask Members to support the passage of the Bill.”
“The Department for Infrastructure is provided with a regulation-making power to charge a fee for the issue of travel concession passes. Finally, the Bill provides the Executive Office with the powers to use funding received from Whitehall Departments to support the integration of refugees and those seeking international protection, as well as a new power to provide services to support victims and survivors of abuse. The Bill also allows TEO to fund development opportunities in respect of public arrangements and to deliver on the strategic framework on ending violence against women and girls, and there is a technical amendment relating to the appointment term of the Commissioner for Survivors of Institutional Childhood Abuse.”
“The Bill also delivers a number of measures for the Department for the Economy, including updated powers to provide financial assistance where it is in the interests of the economy to do so, to support higher education through loan funding, and up-to-date Tourism NI fee charging and grading functions. <BR /> <BR />The Bill enables the Department of Education to provide financial support for teacher training and further professional development postgraduate study in educational psychology. For my Department, the Bill provides the statutory power to make loans for the purposes of an investment fund, thereby allowing the responsibility for issuing loans to the investment fund to transfer from the Executive Office. The Bill also increases the limit on advances from the Consolidated Fund.”
“I therefore very much welcome the fact that the Bill has reached its Final Stage — a position that I know Members will also welcome. <BR /> <BR />I do not intend to set out the provisions of the Bill in any great detail, as Members will be familiar with them from earlier stages. I will, however, briefly recap its main elements. The Bill strengthens marine licensing by providing additional fee-charging powers to the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs; supports the Department for Communities in tackling tenancy fraud by providing further powers to investigate fraud in the social housing sector; and centralises responsibility for setting the basic allowance payable to councillors.”
“As Members are aware, my principal purpose in introducing it was to tidy up a range of routine administrative and financial matters that, taken individually, would not justify stand-alone primary legislation but that, collectively, are necessary to ensure that public finances and administration continue to operate effectively and appropriately. <BR /> <BR />In response to requests from Ministers and to issues raised during scrutiny, I tabled a number of amendments to the Bill, which I am pleased were agreed at Consideration Stage. As I have said previously, many of the measures in the Bill are long overdue. Indeed, a number of activities that the Bill addresses have been relying on the sole authority of the Budget Act, and this legislation will place those matters on the appropriate statutory footing.”
“The Final Stage debate will conclude this part of the legislative process for the Administrative and Financial Provisions Bill, which I introduced to the Assembly on 23 June 2025. Since then, the Bill has been subject to detailed scrutiny and debate, which has been thorough and constructive. I express my sincere thanks to the Chairperson and members of the Committee for Finance for their careful consideration of the Bill. I also extend my thanks to the other Committees that contributed to the scrutiny process and to the officials from various Departments who provided evidence and support to the Finance Committee. <BR /> <BR />The Bill is important and necessary.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.”
“The Fiscal Council is bound to confidentiality on the information that is provided to it. When providing evidence to the Finance Committee, Sir Robert Chote recorded that the council had received all the information that it had requested. I have no reason to doubt that that will continue to be the case. <BR /> <BR />I again put on record my thanks to all those involved in bringing the Bill to the point that we are at today. I commend the Bill to the House.”
“to produce Budget assessment and fiscal sustainability reports. Memoranda of understanding (MOUs) were signed between the council, all Departments and the NIO. Those MOUs set out the arrangements for regular exchange of information, including information requests through all parts of the Departments. The MOUs also set out the arrangements for expectations for information-sharing, including arrangements for handling the council's draft reports to support its delivery of its terms of reference. The MOUs will be reviewed once the council is set up in statute.”
“I thank the current members of the Fiscal Council, who have been engaged in the debate and discussion about these matters and who have brought the legislation to this point. <BR /> <BR />Mr Aiken raised concerns and said that, although we are passing the legislation, we have to ensure that the council has access to all the papers that it requires. To date, it has. There has been very good cooperation. As we have just discussed, the legislation states:”
“You cannot seek independence for the body and then say, "By the way, when I said 'independent', I did not mean independent from me. I want you to be independent from all the rest of them. I do not trust all the rest of them, but here, you can trust me". That was basically the strategy behind the amendments. <BR /> <BR />I do not wish to concentrate too much on the negatives of the debate. From day 1, there has been a constructive debate about the Fiscal Council. The Chair and the Committee have carried out great work in that regard. I send my thanks to the Committee Chair and the Committee staff. I also thank my departmental staff who have carried out great work on the Bill.”
“I think that you are definitely stretching it. To set up the Fiscal Council or any board, body or structure without any defined role would be utter nonsense. The defined role of the Fiscal Council is to provide the two pieces of work that you have set out. That is its defined role. Anything that it does after that is as a result of the independent nature of the Fiscal Council. I think that it would have been very foolish. We modelled our Fiscal Council on international best practice. That was acknowledged by the current chair of the Fiscal Council, and we learnt from his experience of these matters. The Fiscal Council was set up in such a way that it mirrored other fiscal councils, and that is its core function.”
“I believe that the Fiscal Council has to be independent from the whole lot of us, whether you are a Minister, the leader of the Opposition, a party in the Executive or whoever you may be. The Fiscal Council needs to be independent, and the amendments that were brought forward at Consideration Stage impinged upon the independence of the Fiscal Council. No matter what way you painted it, no matter what you put on social media, and no matter what way you wanted to present the position, that was the case. <BR /> <BR />I will give way to the leader of the Opposition.”
“I will, in a minute, when I finish my scripture.”
“No, no. It is not a quote from the Bible. I cannot claim to be an expert in scripture or any of those matters. I am paraphrasing a quote from a saint when faced with temptation. The Opposition and others said, "We want to see an independent Fiscal Council, but, here, we do not want it to be independent from us. When we say that we want an independent Fiscal Council, we mean that we want it to be independent from you, you or you, but not from us!".”
“Since then, a lot of commentary on social media from Mr Tennyson and others who are not here at the moment questioned whether I and others were stopping the work of the Fiscal Council. I am not one for quoting religious figures or scripture, but it brought to mind a quote from St Augustine that I am paraphrasing: "Lord, make me virtuous — but not just yet". The Opposition and others wanted —”
“The Fiscal Council has, for a number of years, been an important part of our financial and public services accountability, operating from within my Department but with a very strong independent voice and holding to account me, previous Finance Ministers and, indeed, other public servants. The Bill ensures that the Fiscal Council will be enshrined in law as an independent body and have protections under the legislation. <BR /> <BR />To me, the crucial element of the Bill is that the independence of the Fiscal Council is enshrined in law. A number of amendments that were tabled at Consideration Stage, in my opinion, impinged upon the independence of the Fiscal Council.”
“Mr Speaker, coming after the previous business, a debate on the Fiscal Council Bill, which may be described as a dry matter, may not be considered important, but it certainly is. <BR /> <BR />First, I add my voice to that of Members who have spoken in support of our international workers, whether they work in healthcare or in other sectors. I add to that my condemnation of the recent violence. I commend all those who work in our health service, improving and saving the lives of our citizens. <BR /> <BR />On the matter before us now, however, I will respond to some of the comments of Members who have been contributing to the debate since day 1, even, as has been pointed out, before the legislation reached the Chamber.”
“The legislation provides the council with a broad and flexible remit to assess and comment on our public finances and their sustainability. The Bill stipulates that the council must take forward two reports annually: a Budget assessment report and a fiscal sustainability report. It is then for the council to determine its work programme in its professional opinion with the resources available to it for other reports that it considers impactful regarding public finances. That means that the council can flex and change its focus on important issues as required over the years. <BR /> <BR />I look forward to hearing Members' thoughts and comments in the Final Stage debate.”
“During evidence from the Fiscal Council, the council chair confirmed that he was content with the Bill. I am assured that that is the case given his extensive experience within the fiscal context.”
“<BR /> <BR />During Consideration Stage, it was determined that we must ensure that the council's independence remained paramount. I wanted to ensure that we did not set up an independent fiscal body and, at the same time, legislate on a long list of asks that it must do. Where would that leave us when it came to that body having the discretion, flexibility and independence to determine its own work programme free from political interference and in line with OECD principles and best practice? However, I again emphasise that the Bill allows the council, should it consider it worthwhile, to consider the issues raised in the amendments at Consideration Stage around the Programme for Government (PFG), the impact of the Budget on the economy and the cost of duplication as part of its assessments.”
“Today's Final Stage debate concludes this part of the legislative process for the Fiscal Council Bill. Members will be aware that the legislation is necessary to place the council on a statutory footing and to secure its independence. I begin by thanking all members of the Finance Committee, who have scrutinised and continue to debate this important legislation. During Consideration Stage, Members agreed that the Fiscal Council had already made a significant impact on improving the transparency, scrutiny and understanding of our public finances since it was established in March 2021. The Bill will enable the council to continue its work, operating independently from ministerial, Executive, Committee or departmental interference, and to access all government information that it requires to deliver on its functions.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.”
“I do not have those details in front of me, but I am more than happy to share them with the Member.”
“My Department has been engaging regularly with the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government in Whitehall on those matters over a period. I think that it is important that the Executive provide a response to it rather than individual Departments. There may be some issues that are specific to individual Departments, but I think that it is important that the Executive make their views known.”
“I await the proposals from the hospitality sector. I indicated to it at the time that I would not take any further actions until I saw its proposals, so I await the proposals.”
“Following my meeting with the hospitality sector in February, when I halted the Reval, it has been working on its own proposals. I believe that those are at an advanced stage and will be brought back to me. My officials have been engaging with the sector back and forth on that.”
“I will come back to the Member with more details, but I understand that there is ongoing engagement with the Department for Communities on the listing of the building. We are looking at all options in relation to that building. I am not sure what benefit it is to the citizens of east Belfast at this time. I suspect that, were I to invest £100 million in housing or into the crumbling education estate or into the health estate or into York Street, that would be a much better use of the money than what is currently envisaged for that building.”
“It is such an outdated building, and the cost would be with turning it into a modern, acceptable working environment and making it sustainable going forward, including in relation to energy costs. There is no point in us burning fuel to keep draughty windows and corridors warm. I assume that you will agree with that. Whether there is a climate Act or whatever you want to call it, there is no point in burning public money to do that. The amount of money required to turn that building into a modern, fit-for-purpose facility is at that scale, and I do not think that it is affordable or wise to use it at this time.”
“It was not hidden away. I am just checking my notes on that point. The confidence-and-supply funding was not earmarked for specific projects. Although the York Street interchange was part of the programme that was expected to utilise the funding from the confidence-and-supply agreement, funding legal challenges associated with the project caused significant delays to it. The confidence-and-supply funding allocated to DFI was fully spent on other infrastructure projects and departmental priorities at the time.”
“I assume that that is where the money has gone to, but it would probably be best getting more detail from the Infrastructure Minister on those matters. Such projects require alarming amounts of money before a single metre of tarmac is laid.”
“I thought that the DUP had stopped talking about its confidence-and-supply relationship with the Conservative Party. It is one of those areas of life that you should probably put in the dark recesses of your mind and forget about. You may have secured £1 billion, but what did you actually cost us in cuts to public spending as a result of keeping the Conservatives in government for that period of time? You did not secure money; you cost money, because you kept a party in power that was slashing public services left, right and centre. <BR /> <BR />Anyhow, in relation to your question, projects such as the York Street interchange require significant amounts of spend before any construction takes place.”
“That is part of the ongoing process of looking at the implications of introducing the legislation. It will impact on a number of Departments and areas of responsibility. I have already had initial engagement with the Justice Minister, and my officials are engaging with the Justice Department. When this law is introduced, other areas of support and engagement will be affected for families going through what is already a traumatic process. That forms part of the ongoing deliberations.”
“As I said during the main Question Time, officials are working their way through that area of legislation. I believe that a change was made via an amendment to a justice Bill in Westminster to introduce what is known as Jade's law. However, that was two years ago. Although Jade's law is on the statute books, it has not been commenced in England because of the huge complexities of the issue. I want to ensure that, when we introduce legislation here, it is commenced when it goes on the statute books.”
“It is a hugely complex legal area. If there are to be changes to the legislation, proper scrutiny will be required. My advice — this has been my advice since day 1 on this matter — for anyone who has concerns about how they are being treated by their property management company is to consult their contract and, if necessary, a solicitor to ensure that they are being properly and fairly treated.”
“My Department continues to examine that area. As I have said previously in the House, I do not think that I will be able to introduce legislation on the issue within this mandate, but I have set aside resources in my Department to examine the matter further and progress it to a stage at which we will be able to introduce legislation in the next mandate.”