John O'Dowd
Upper Bann · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“As I set out in response to the previous question, we have in place the vacant property rate relief scheme and the small business rate relief scheme, which are very successful. I set aside £10 million in the draft Budget for small business rate relief to be invested.”
“I am particularly keen to hear from those impacted by vacant commercial units and especially about how any phased increase can be implemented in a sustainable way that is fair, proportionate and sustainable within the tax system.”
“I outlined my intent to take that approach in my statement on 18 November, alongside the fact that reform of rating policy should support growth, make better use of property and ensure that the system is fair, proportionate and aligned with wider economic objectives.”
“The accelerator will operate alongside our highly successful Back in Business scheme, which has helped to bring over 100 vacant high street properties back into use since May 2024. Those issues have been the subject of considerable interest and comment in the Assembly, and it is right that we grasp the nettle now.”
“There are no circumstances in which a hard border would be good for the people of Ireland; it would not be good for anyone. Those who suggest that are being naive at best and dangerous at worst, in the sense of not understanding this society. <BR /> <BR />Rural communities along the border are one and the same.”
“This announcement represents the next step in that. That said, I also put on record my intention to strengthen support for small businesses. In that vein, £10 million has been set aside in the draft Budget to broaden the impact of the small business rate relief scheme in order to increase the number of businesses that can benefit from it.…”
The complete record
Every one of 6,140 lines we hold for John O'Dowd, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 78 of 123.
“I thank the Minister for his answer. Is he in a position yet to announce the name of the inquiry chair? Will he ensure that patient voices are involved in the design of the terms of reference?”
“Minister, several weeks ago, the Scottish Government introduced about £1·3 million for mental healthcare and well-being for students. I raised the matter with the Economy Minister a number of weeks ago, and I got a positive response. Will you approach the matter positively to see whether you can identify specific funding for our students for their mental health and well-being?”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is now 12.55 am. The debate has been going on for approximately nine hours. The issues have been well debated. The proposer of the amendments has had ample opportunity to propose and respond. I propose that the Question now be put.”
“Thank you. The reason RHI came about was that the House passed bad legislation. The Minister brought legislation to the House that she had not even read, and Members voted for it. There is a danger tonight of Members voting for bad legislation again. It proves the point that legislation does not cure all ills, but it can cause a few of them.”
“The Member needs to understand this: RHI came about because the House passed bad legislation. The Minister brought legislation to the House that she had not even read.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. There is a difference between the minutes of a meeting not being taken and decisions not being recorded. Any ministerial decision has to be recorded in a submission that is sent to the Minister by the Civil Service and is available under a freedom of information request; indeed, civil servants cannot action spends or take any action without a submission signed by their Minister.”
“The Member has to understand that some of the legislation will not send the elites to jail; it will send the working class to jail — the civil servants. Surely, civil servants are working-class. Some of the amendments that you are about to support will send civil servants to jail.”
“I am at a loss as to know what the Member's contribution has to do with the amendments; he is talking about amendments that could have happened. I alert the Member to this: I will divide the House on six of the clauses tonight. That will be at least one hour of voting that you have to look forward to after your contribution.”
“This is not like passing a motion on a Monday or a Tuesday that has no impact. This is legislation that we are passing, so ask yourself this question: will the clauses that you pass support effective law?”
“While you may not be creating an undue burden on civil servants, the question that you have to ask yourself is this: are you creating effective law?”
“I am sure that the Member has, as I have, sat through many monitoring round statements in the Chamber. Attached to the back of the monitoring round statements is what the clause asks for: it sets out what each Department is getting extra. My experience of monitoring rounds is that they are usually good news stories. There is no hesitation from a Finance Minister in coming to the Chamber and telling the world that he can give out money; it is when they have to take money off you that they are more reluctant to come to the Chamber. I do not wish to lengthen the debate, but I am not sure that the new clause is necessary to carry out the functions that the Member wants.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. He will be aware of many small and medium-sized enterprises that were capable of responding to the shortages of PPE and other equipment in the health sector but were not able to do so because they were disadvantaged by the scale of the contracts. Will the new Procurement Board ensure that there is not only value for money but a mandatory provision for social value?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. The media have to be careful in how they report infection rates associated with schools. They report them as being "in schools", but it is more important that they report them as being "associated with schools". <BR /> <BR />Have there been any discussions with the Department for Infrastructure on the provision of buses, particularly from Translink? There are also many private coach companies out there that are crying out for work. Is the Minister aware of whether contact has been made with them?”
“Mr Deputy Speaker, I do not think that there is any need for that tone, with the greatest respect to you and your office. There is absolutely no need for that tone. Will you please refer me to where Standing Orders refer to latitude to allow Members to speak beyond amendments?”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Will you rule on whether the Member is speaking to an amendment?”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Will the Member state which amendment he is speaking to?”
“Sorry. <BR /> <BR />We also have our Committees. Our Committees hold Ministers to account, their Departments to account and their officials to account. So there is not an absence of accountability. No one is arguing for an absence of accountability. However, we are arguing that the measures the Member is taking are unnecessary and unwieldy.”
“There are accountability mechanisms in place here. We are actually sitting in one at the minute: it is the Assembly. The Assembly holds Ministers and their Departments to account.”
“He may well be doing a fine job, but it is not up to him to tell me that. He should have been investigated. Will the Minister agree with me that, until the culture changes and that power relationship between the trusts and consultants changes, we will be back here talking about another public inquiry into a different consultant at some stage?”
“This is probably one of the most disturbing and concerning health statements that I have heard in the Chamber in the 17 years that I have been an MLA. Not one but two public inquiries have been announced today. In my opinion, the reason for that is the culture in our health service. Our consultants have far too much power. The vast majority of our consultants are fine people who carry out healthcare and save lives daily, but the culture in the health service means that they have too much power. When someone has too much power, that person is not held to account. <BR /> <BR />I will give the Minister an example. Six months ago, I wrote to the same trust about a consultant. I made a formal complaint on behalf of the mother of a disabled adult. The consultant wrote back to me and told me that he was doing a fine job.”
“A lot of work is done in our Committees. I congratulate everyone involved in formulating the Committee report.”
“<BR /> <BR />Last week, we had a well-intentioned debate on how certain elements of agriculture produce harmful greenhouse gases. It is an important area to focus on, but, rather than simply focusing on how agriculture produces harmful gases, we should look at how we can support agriculture to produce energy. If we can get our farming community involved in the production of energy, as many are, along with others, they will not see this as an attack on them. They will see it as an opportunity. Many small businesses and individuals could also produce energy. Hopefully, we will hear more about the Bill during the consultation. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the report. It is another example of how Committees in this place do important work. They do not always attract the headlines, but they do important work behind the scenes.”
“I know that the Housing Executive does not build the social housing currently, but those involved in building social housing are fitting out their properties to high standards, which means that there is less cost in heating them, but improvements could be made. <BR /> <BR />I cannot speak on energy without plugging my Bill, which I propose to bring forward in the near future. It is out to public consultation. That Bill looks at how we allow for the microgeneration of green energy, where we allow farmers, individuals and communities to produce energy and then sell it back to the major producers, and calls on the producers to have a fixed price for it and to ensure that they purchase at least 5% of their energy from those producers. That allows for the production of energy to be brought down into communities.”
“<BR /> <BR />That does not have to be the case; in fact, green energy and tackling climate change can be an economic driver, if used properly. If we can invest in programmes that create green energy, jobs and sustainability, why would we not do that? That is the factor and the prism through which all of this has to be looked at. A number of Members have said that the consumer is concerned. Let us allay that concern by saying that we see this as an economic driver and a way forward for change. We, as a society, could be energy providers across these islands, if we invest properly. We could lead the way in how we retrofit our homes. Recently, the Minister for Communities announced a programme of building new social houses. Those houses can and should be built to the highest standards in energy efficiency.”
“I do not object to higher taxes, but I want to know whom they will tax at a higher rate, because experience tells us that it is not always those who can afford to pay most. We hear talk of public-sector pay freezes and cuts to public-sector spending. They are issues of great concern, particularly to those in lower income brackets. When they hear politicians and Assemblies talk about climate action, climate change and new energy strategies, they are quietly concerned and ask themselves, "Who is going to pay for that?". Will the new energy cost those people, as consumers who are trying to run a family home, a small business or even a large business, more? Will they or their family have to do without other things as a result of a new energy strategy?”
“I apologise to the Chair and to Members who have spoken thus far on the report for not being in the Chamber for most of the debate. It is important work. The Committee Clerk and staff are to be congratulated on the work that has been done on what is proving to be a more important issue each time that we debate it. Of course, we have to move beyond debate to action and to seeing change in how we produce, manage and invest in our energy and, in turn, ensure that that investment is for the benefit of all the people whom we serve. <BR /> <BR />With the ongoing economic crisis caused by COVID-19 not only here but across the island, these islands and globally, eyes are turning to how we will come out the other side of the economic disaster. Over the weekend — perhaps, over a longer period — we heard talk of higher taxes.”
“The Minister will be aware that students are desperately seeking information as to when and how they can travel home safely over the Christmas period, whether to here or from here to somewhere else. Will the Minister work in conjunction with the Health Minister to ensure that students have that information?”
“I am not sure that it is understandable at 1.00 am that Members decide to make speeches about the wider scale of the Bill. Please do not encourage them to do so during the fourth series of amendments that are coming before us.”
“Minister, paragraph 7 of your statement refers to the fact that various jurisdictions are looking at the risks posed to critical infrastructure by climate change. Has your Department identified such infrastructure and what actions to take to protect it from climate change?”
“We now have in place a scheme that allows low-paid workers to isolate and receive support. The Minister indicated earlier that she was looking at the level of income that a family can have to be able to claim the support. How quickly will she be able to carry out that review?”
“I thank the Minister for her answers thus far. The mantra for months now has been that we need a proper test, trace, isolate and support scheme.”
“Minister, what would you say to the businesswoman in my constituency who said to me during the week that, if the Economy Minister spent less time doing the Health Minister's work and more time doing the Economy Minister's work, her business may have a future? Will you get the money out the door and to the businesses that require it?”
“I appreciate the pressure that the Minister's Department and the entire Executive are under. I would not expect her to be able to say, "I'm building that within a short time". I want to ensure that it is in the mindset of the Department that we need to expand our rail network. We need to be imaginative in the provision of further rail halts, particularly along the main Belfast to Dublin line. A rail halt in central Craigavon would lift the traffic congestion out of Lurgan and allow Lurgan to return to being a market town with specialist traders.”
“The Minister will be aware that, before COVID had its devastating economic impact, we were in recession. One of the reasons why we were in recession was the uncertainty around Brexit and the uncertainty faced by businesses and employees. Does the Minister agree that the worst-case outcome is that we have no deal at the end of the talks and that that will have a further devastating impact on our economy?”
“If we are to stop children hiding toast down their nappy because they are so hungry, we need to have the fiscal powers that have been talked about in this and other debates. We also need to have a matching economic strategy that will create well-paid jobs and wealth and ensure that our young people, our older people, and everyone in between, are able to contribute to society and earn a proper wage. I will leave it at that.”
“They put hundreds of millions of pounds in place to mitigate the effects. Scotland is one of the most progressive Administrations on these islands, and people often point towards Scotland and say, "Look at what the Scottish are doing". Scotland has not put hundreds of millions of pounds into a mitigation scheme for welfare reform. The Executive have, and the Finance Minister backed it, as did other Ministers. There are numerous examples across Departments of where Ministers have put in place funding packages to mitigate the impact of poverty or bring people out of poverty, and that has to be welcomed. <BR /> <BR />Our Executive make a difference. The question is this: do we have enough money or the fiscal powers to make a significant difference — the change in tempo that we need? My answer is that we do not.”
“What have you done?". Let us look at some of the positive measures that have been taken across the Executive, as a collective. They are not Sinn Féin initiatives, DUP initiatives or SDLP initiatives. When the Executive act together, they make a difference. In England, there was a recent debate, as there was in the summer, about free school meals. It is worth noting that there is a more generous free school meals scheme in place here in the North than there is in England. In this society, you can be in a higher earning bracket and still receive free school meals than is the case in England. Why? It is because the Executive and the Finance Minister, then and now, funded it. <BR /> <BR />Look at our welfare reform system — the infamous universal credit — and what the Executive did.”
“That statement stuck with me. Then, today, I heard the Finance Minister say that the Department for Infrastructure received £180 million in the most recent funding package. That matches the Department of Education, and I suspect that the highest funding has, deservedly, gone to Health. Therefore, it is not the case that the Department for Infrastructure is struggling to find funding. It is no secret that it received up to £180 million in the most recent financial packages. <BR /> <BR />Mr Deputy Speaker, I will end on this point. I started off by talking about one of the subjects that was mentioned during questions to the Health Minister: children who are so hungry that they hide toast down their nappy. The Budget and other policies are key to tackling poverty. Quite rightly, people ask, "What are the Executive doing?”
“Quite rightly, Members have been talking about the needs of restaurateurs, the hospitality sector, care and beauty therapists etc, but £800,000 a week is being paid out on infrastructure and staff because of Brexit. When we look in the round at the damage being done to the economy, we have to look at it in its totality. <BR /> <BR />In the Chamber last week — the Minister read out some of the figures earlier — the Minister for Infrastructure was answering questions on the North/South Ministerial Council meeting in transport sectoral format, and she said:”
“It is worth noting that, before COVID-19 hit, our economy was going into recession. In fact, it was in recession. That is the basis from which we are starting. We were in recession before COVID-19 came along. COVID-19 has hit us and Brexit has hit us. Brexit was part of the reason that we were in recession before COVID-19, but Brexit is having a huge impact on our economy, on our ability to recover from COVID-19 and, indeed, on putting a Budget in place that will meet the needs of our society moving forward. <BR /> <BR />Declan McAleer made an interesting point during his speech. He said that some of the measures being put in place at the ports would cost around £45 million a year. Those are just some of the measures. That is about £800,000 a week. What could our farmers do with £800,000 a week?”
“<BR /> <BR />Some grants are the responsibility of the Department for the Economy, and 51 were paid out during the most recent lockdown. The Department of Finance has paid out 2,142 grants; £7 million has been paid out and that is still progressing. That is comforting news to the 2,000 businesses on one side and the 51 businesses on the other, but we need to continue to get that money out the door. If we are to close businesses down — there will be occasions when we have to — and if everybody wants to work towards a position where our economy is opened up again in a safe way, we have to ensure that there are mechanisms in place to get the money to those businesses, and the key to that is having a Minister at the front of it leading and making sure that it happens. <BR /> <BR />I want to end with a few comments on the budgetary position.”
“Before we broke for lunch and for Question Time, I was responding to some comments from Mr Frew about his opinion of the Executive, the role of the Executive and the passage of the Budget Bill. I commented on what I see as dithering in the Department for the Economy and dithering by the Minister for the Economy, not only in responding to the COVID-19 pandemic, which has crippled our economy and, indeed, had a huge impact on the world economy, but in bringing forward proposals for the economic recovery on the other side of this. I also mentioned the frustration in sections of the business sector that, although they were promised funding when they were closed down by the Executive, there has been a delay in getting that funding out. Facts speak louder than words on many occasions, and, on this occasion, the facts speak for themselves.”
“I think that I will have to come back in after the break. <BR /> <BR />There has been dithering from the Economy Minister throughout the process. She has had one eye on Westminster and one eye on what happens in the Assembly. She needs to have both eyes on our local economy to ensure that our business community is supported. I will end there for now.”
“At the start of the pandemic, many businesses were grateful and thankful for the interventions of the Executive — the Finance Minister in particular — and the funds that were distributed. What is clearly breeding frustration in the business community at this stage is this: three weeks into the current lockdown, many of the businesses affected have not received the financial interventions that they were promised, not by the Finance Minister but by the Economy Minister. I have concerns about the record and role of the Economy Minister, even if there was not COVID-19, because there has been —.”
“At no stage have I heard the First Minister refer to the Executive as being criminal, killing people or doing wanton vandalism: never. I have not heard the First Minister say, "Who is going to save us from this Executive?". <BR /> <BR />There are mixed views in the business community around what the Executive should do next. I have listened to different views in my constituency and on the air waves about what should happen next. I have met businesspeople who are angry and frustrated with the Executive. The majority of businesspeople whom I have met want the Executive to take a leading role in tackling COVID-19, to protect themselves, their families and their loved ones, but in the recognition that, on the other side of this, we have to have an economy.”
“However, if I was of Mr Frew's belief that the Executive have been criminal, have led to killing people and are involved in wanton vandalism against businesses, I would sit in that corner, not on a party Bench. I would get up, leave that party and sit in that corner over there. If someone solemnly believes those statements about the Executive, they have to act on it.”
“The economic impact of COVID has been as devastating, in many ways, as the health impact, setting it aside, of course, that over 1,000 people have died of COVID-19, many more have been ill and many more will face the consequences of that illness for a long time. I listened with interest, when I was in my room, to Mr Frew's commentary on this. I was not sure whether I was listening to a resignation speech from the DUP or to the continued feud between him and his party leader in relation to the role of the Executive. We have COVID-19 deniers, and now, to add to that list, we have Executive deniers. Five parties in the Chamber are members of the Executive, and it is right and proper that MLAs hold the Executive to account. That is our function; that is what we are here for.”
“I recall, as Education Minister, redirecting millions of pounds away from some schools to others to tackle educational underachievement and poverty. Quite rightly, I was challenged. We were in austere times, and I was taking money off schools that were surviving and giving it to others to make sure that they had a leg-up. Those are the difficult choices that have to be made. <BR /> <BR />Mr Deputy Speaker, I am conscious of the time. I think I have another five minutes, if that is OK. I am just waiting for the break. <BR /> <BR />That brings me on to Mr Frew's commentary. It is understandable that the debate has entered the realm of COVID, which dominates everything.”
“That is what Budgets have to be about, and that is what our Executive and our legislation have to be about. We have to eradicate poverty, and we have to give communities that have been left behind for decades, if not centuries, an opportunity to create the change that is needed. <BR /> <BR />There are ways of doing that, as I have said. Education is one of them; in fact, education is key to it. Education is key to eradicating poverty in our society. Let us make sure that we invest in our education system and that we have the community infrastructure in place to ensure that there is a strong sense of community in our society. Let us make sure that the Executive have the spending power to redirect the extra resources into those communities.”
“Poverty is not a natural phenomenon. Poverty is created because policies, legislation and decisions have been made that ensure that trends continue. In our society, down through the decades, you can pinpoint where the trends of poverty have existed and which communities those trends exist in. There is a higher level of poverty in the Catholic community but not exclusively. There is poverty in working-class communities across this society. As an Executive, an Assembly and a society, if we want to tackle that, we should not look towards charity or food banks. Look towards policy and legislation, and redirect much-needed funds towards ensuring that we do not have children stuffing toast into their nappies to bring home with them because they do not know when they will be fed again.”