John O'Dowd
Upper Bann · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“As I set out in response to the previous question, we have in place the vacant property rate relief scheme and the small business rate relief scheme, which are very successful. I set aside £10 million in the draft Budget for small business rate relief to be invested.”
“I am particularly keen to hear from those impacted by vacant commercial units and especially about how any phased increase can be implemented in a sustainable way that is fair, proportionate and sustainable within the tax system.”
“I outlined my intent to take that approach in my statement on 18 November, alongside the fact that reform of rating policy should support growth, make better use of property and ensure that the system is fair, proportionate and aligned with wider economic objectives.”
“The accelerator will operate alongside our highly successful Back in Business scheme, which has helped to bring over 100 vacant high street properties back into use since May 2024. Those issues have been the subject of considerable interest and comment in the Assembly, and it is right that we grasp the nettle now.”
“There are no circumstances in which a hard border would be good for the people of Ireland; it would not be good for anyone. Those who suggest that are being naive at best and dangerous at worst, in the sense of not understanding this society. <BR /> <BR />Rural communities along the border are one and the same.”
“This announcement represents the next step in that. That said, I also put on record my intention to strengthen support for small businesses. In that vein, £10 million has been set aside in the draft Budget to broaden the impact of the small business rate relief scheme in order to increase the number of businesses that can benefit from it.…”
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“As an Executive, an Assembly and a society, we have to reach the stage where we have politically matured to the point where we have a Budget Bill that is based on taxation and other matters and fiscal powers, because that is where the real decisions are made. <BR /> <BR />If anyone watched 'The View' last Thursday night, they will have heard the paediatric consultant from the Royal Victoria Hospital talking about child poverty, which was quite horrific. She talked about how children on the wards stuffed toast down their nappies because they did not know when they would get their next feed at home and how children ate bowls upon bowls of cereal because they knew that, when they went home, they would not get any more food. What has brought that about? I cannot judge each case, but poverty has brought that about. What creates poverty?”
“Unfortunately, I do not think that I will have my remarks finished before the 1.00 pm break, but I will try my best to assist in moving the debate on. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the opportunity to speak on the Budget Bill. As I have said in the House before, while it is welcome that we have a Finance Minister, an Executive and an Assembly in place, our Budget Bill is unique in many ways, as we are not here today discussing a taxation policy or revenue policies; rather, we are divvying up what is, ungraciously, in my opinion, called the block grant, plus our rates and a few other earnings, among our Departments to spend in the year ahead.”
“I thank the Minister for her answers thus far. I welcome the statement on the British-Irish Council, which is an important institution of the Good Friday Agreement. It is important that there is cooperation and mutual understanding across these islands. <BR /> <BR />The Minister covered some of the implications of COVID, such as the health and economic issues, but if we are going to have an economic recovery from COVID, one of the important things will be that our Executive have fiscal powers. Was there any discussion at the BIC about the devolution of fiscal powers to institutions such as the Assembly?”
“<BR /> <BR />I appeal to the Minister to ensure that our colleges are given the freedom to react quickly to the changes in the economy, that we promote the trades that are needed in our manufacturing industry and that Invest NI is relevant to all our businesses and is not seen as a body that operates in Belfast and does trips around the world. If we bring all those points together, we will ensure that our manufacturing industry moves forward successfully.”
“We need to promote those as being worthwhile careers. We also have to give our colleges the ability to react to a changing economy. The Economy Committee has heard reports that our colleges feel constrained by, strangely enough, the number of awarding bodies out there — I think that there are 60 or 70. Our colleges cannot respond quickly to the changing dynamics of our economy. That is particularly relevant in mid-Ulster and my constituency, which are crying out for engineers, manufacturers, welders and all the people those companies need to build the equipment that we export across the world.”
“They will have to establish relationships with China and all the other major global players. Let us make sure that we are well placed. To be well placed, you have to have the proper skills in place. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the skills strategy that has come forward. It has been warmly welcomed by our colleges, in particular, and our employers. It has to be relevant to our employers and employees. Our colleges can be the poor relations of our universities. A lot of that is to do with the perception of what is a good job or career. As I said, many of our small manufacturers have developed from three or four people working together to become companies that employ 20, 40 or 50 people and could be involved in exporting. We need to promote the courses that are available in our colleges, whether they are engineering or manufacturing courses.”
“Invest NI will tell them many reasons why they are not relevant to its strategies, but those companies then feel alienated and will perhaps turn their back on the opportunities that, perhaps, exist. I appeal to the Minister to ensure that any strategies that are brought forward, particularly by Invest NI, are made relevant to where the jobs are. <BR /> <BR />The economy is changing. The global economy has taken a massive hit as a result of COVID-19. Foreign direct investment will not be as readily available as it once was, and we have to protect what we have. We have to protect and invest in the small and medium enterprises that we have while the global economy stabilises and we all work out what direction it is going in. The new American Administration will have a different attitude from the previous one on global trading.”
“Those companies may have started with a couple of people working in a shed and have developed into manufacturing businesses, some of which are exporting. I often wonder whether the strategies that we bring forward are of any relevance to those people. One of the points that I make constantly to the Department — I make it again to the Minister — is that our strategies have to be relevant to the employers and employees out there. As I said, sometimes they are not. <BR /> <BR />My colleague Linda referred to Invest NI. To many small and medium-sized enterprises, Invest NI is a Belfast-based promotional company with which they have no relationship. Despite reaching out to Invest NI or trying their best to engage with it, they always run into barriers.”
“I am sorry that Mr Dunne's contribution was not recorded for posterity. <BR /> <BR />Looking at the notes on the debate, I asked myself, "What is manufacturing? What is that sector?". It is easier to say what is not manufacturing than what is manufacturing. That is because our economy is very reliant on large, medium and small manufacturing plants. I joined the Committee for the Economy this term. It is my first term on it, and I have found it very interesting. However, some of the strategies that have been brought forward are very high level. Many of our manufacturing businesses are small and medium-sized enterprises, and I often ask myself, "What has that policy or strategy got to do with the work that is going on in companies that employ 20 to 50 people?".”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. She will be aware that students have had a particularly difficult year, particularly first-year students, who were awaiting their A-level results and then had to deal with the mix-up around those. They are now seeing their studies disrupted. They are facing financial hardship, because many who had part-time jobs no longer have those jobs, plus they have the worries of living with and dealing with COVID. On Friday, the Scottish Government awarded £1·32 million to assist with students' mental health and well-being. They will assign dedicated officials to engage with students and to counsel students on their mental health. Will the Minister undertake to work with the Health Minister to bring a similar proposal to the Executive to have dedicated funding for our students' mental health and well-being?”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Can we suspend for 10 minutes to allow the Minister a rest?”
“The industry has to ensure that the staff are properly paid and looked after, particularly if they are working into the early hours. That has to be recognised, and the industry has to take that on board. I will draw my remarks to a close on that point.”
“I know that there will be further discussions about how far that measure should go and what the other elements will be. However, that is a very welcome recognition of an industry with growth and tourism potential, and it will be of benefit to our economy moving forward. <BR /> <BR />The other thing that I want to mention before I end is that the staff who work on these premises are usually low-paid and are sometimes, but not always, on zero-hours contracts. That is not the responsibility of the Minister. However, the industry has to recognise that, if the Assembly passes the legislation and gives it more opening hours and better opportunities to promote businesses, it has to look after the staff. The industry has to look after the bar staff, waiters, waitresses and all the other people who are required to run it.”
“That is something that the Committee should look at; we have to look at all modern forms of advertising. <BR /> <BR />I want to draw my remarks to a close before the 1.00 pm break. I will move on through them quickly. I welcome that automatic and self-service dispensers are going to be made illegal. They are an abomination that go against the principles that we talked about, such as good bar staff, good bar owners and socialisation. Self-service tills should also be removed from shops, in my opinion, because they do away with jobs and with that socialisation. <BR /> <BR />I also welcome the relaxation for the microbreweries and producers of alcohol. In a previous intervention, my colleague from Upper Bann mentioned cider and beer producers in the constituency, and that will be a welcome development.”
“<BR /> <BR />While this is not the responsibility of the Executive yet, I favour a method of having higher taxation on off-licences and perhaps lowering the taxation on bars in order to shift that trend.”
“Yes, I was going to move on to that. I am deeply concerned about the changing trends in the growth of the off-licence sector and home drinking for a variety of reasons, but particularly because of the socialisation that happens in bars. When you are in a bar, your drinking habits are regulated. If you drink too much in a bar, the barman — trust me on this, because I was a barman — will put up with only so much before it is time for you to go home. However, in the house people may be drinking measures such as shorts, and they will tell you, for example, "I had three Bacardis last night", but they do not realise that the three Bacardis were actually triple measures. The drinks are not being measured using an optic. That is deeply worrying.”
“<BR /> <BR />The way in which families and individuals react to different events has changed. When I was working as a chef 20 or 25 years ago — maybe longer — you could take Easter Sunday off because it was a very quiet day. People did not go out as much to eat or maybe have a drink. I know that you cannot get Easter Sunday off nowadays because it is such a busy day in the hotel and restaurant trade. It is only right, then, that we have proper opening hours to reflect that and allow people to enjoy themselves and consume alcohol responsibly.”
“When you have good bar staff and good owners of premises, people feel as if they are part of a community, particularly those who are elderly or lonely. People go round to their local for a bottle of stout or a whisky once a day, and that is their social event. That is where they go to socialise. <BR /> <BR />Much more importantly, however, a responsible bar owner and good bar staff listen and engage and become friends with their customers. They know their customers; they know when something is not right, and they offer a helping hand. That is why the proposals, whereby we have a responsible approach to alcohol and we have responsible bar owners, should allow us to push the boat out and extend our opening hours and the opportunities for venues to open longer, particularly on Easter Sunday.”
“<BR /> <BR />We have to recognise that our society and the way in which people socialise and celebrate events in the calendar is changing. Easter, in particular, has changed over the past 20 or 25 years. I have reflected on a number of occasions in the Chamber that I used to work as a chef, and I also did many an hour behind a bar as a barman. That type of work gives you an interesting insight into human behaviour and the human mindset because you see the best and the worst in people. <BR /> <BR />In my socialising and in my work in the hotel and bar trade over many years, I have recognised one thing: a well-run bar, club or hotel is much more than simply a place where people go to consume alcohol. It is like a community within a community.”
“I welcome the Second Stage of the Bill, when we speak broadly about its clauses. I wish the Committee all the best in its deliberations. I am sure that it will, quite rightly, be inundated with representations from a variety of sectors that are affected by the legislation. <BR /> <BR />Our society has a very difficult relationship with alcohol, dating back many centuries. Alcoholism has caused huge problems in family homes, in society and, as others mentioned, for the health service, and it has ruined many lives. The abuse of alcohol is something that we, as legislators, and society have to recognise. Nevertheless, we also have to say, in measured terms, how we will ensure that we create a responsible relationship with alcohol, and the Bill goes some way towards doing that.”
“I welcome the Minister's statement and the radical opportunity to change the failings in our housing system. The Minister will recall that she and I, along with a large delegation of Sinn Féin representatives, met the Housing Executive several years ago. During that meeting, it was revealed that 500 social houses had been built in the most affluent constituency in the North, while I and other representatives of the Woodville and Drumnamoe wards in north Lurgan, which are some of the most deprived wards in the North, saw only a small number of houses — 10 or 12 — built there in the last 10 years. Will the Minister assure us that housing will be built in areas of need and distributed fairly and equitably?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. He is quite correct: "grammar" is a managerial term in education that is set out in law. The term "comprehensive" has become a dirty word in education, because, in England, comprehensive schools were not properly politically led from the top and were not properly invested in. Comprehensive education is a good form of education when properly led and properly funded.”
“The Minister will appreciate that Derek Baker worked with me when he was deputy permanent secretary, and I concur with the Minister's remarks about him. He was an excellent public servant.”
“Our education system has to be about all our children.”
“If you want evidence of what is wrong with academic selection, listen to the debate over this last few weeks and months. It is about the few, not the many.”
“That in itself would take huge pressure off our children and young people. <BR /> <BR />I object to the suggestion that the test should be returned to the primary schools, and I do so on this basis: what about the children who are not sitting the test? My colleague Karen gave the very good example of P7 teachers. Why should the education of those children be disrupted and abused because some either want to or are being told that they have to sit an test? It is totally unfair and wrong. In fact, the entire debate — not today's debate in the Chamber, but the debate about the test — has been about a section of our education system and a section of our pupils. That is what is wrong with academic selection. The focus of the whole machine is on those who are doing the test, and that leaves people behind.”
“There are schools that have led by example by stepping forward and saying that they will not be carrying out academic selection this year. I hope that that continues, but there is no reason that all schools should not step forward and say that they will not be carrying out academic selection this year. They do not have to wait on an instruction from the Minister. I would love to stand here and lambast the Minister, trust me. It would be an easy speech. He has certain responsibilities for all these things, but we have devolved significant powers to our post-primary sector. Whether it is a grammar school or not, our schools have significant powers. Boards of governors carry significant powers in their hands, so they have a responsibility to step forward and say that there will be no academic selection this year.”
“Our responsibility as legislators is to ensure that something that is bad policy is removed. <BR /> <BR />Particularly this year, why are we having this debate? We are having it because two private companies are supplying our schools — our publicly funded schools — with tests. I do not know to which Committee of this House those two private companies are accountable. In fairness, they are not accountable to the Minister, because academic selection is outside his remit. They are not accountable to the Education Committee, because they are two private companies. The question then is this: why are two private companies interfering in our education system in the first place? <BR /> <BR />On the timing of the tests etc, schools also have a huge responsibility.”
“In any other circumstances, our media would lambast us daily for continuing to use academic selection. Apart from a few examples, for whatever reason — I know what I think are the reasons why they do it — our media supports academic selection on the basis that it has parental support. Smoking in bars used to have support. Driving without a seat belt used to have very popular support. There are people out there who will tell you that COVID-19 does not exist. In fact, I was stopped recently while on a walk by a guy who tried to shake my hand. He took offence because I would not shake his hand and then tried to tell me that there is no such thing as COVID-19. There are opinions about everything, but then there is evidence. The evidence tells us that academic selection is bad for our education system.”
“It is grossly unfair and has placed huge pressure on our schools, our principals and our teachers. Without them, in many cases, track and trace would not exist, because they are the ones who are doing it. That is something that the Executive will have to look at as we move towards having a proper tracking, tracing and supporting element. <BR /> <BR />As I said, I am an avid opponent of academic selection. It is not that I am opposed to grammar schools or to A, B and C. I am opposed to academic selection, because there is no evidence to support the claim that academic selection gives added value to the education system. There is, however, a weight of evidence to show that it damages the education system and that it damages young people. I can think of no other area of public policy that has so much evidence weighted against it.”
“That is an important factor to consider. The safety of our pupils and our staff is vital, and we all have a part to play.”
“When I hear the figures on the COVID infections in schools, the first question that I ask myself is whether the infection was caught in school or as the result of activities outside the school.”
“This has been an interesting debate thus far. Fair play to the Education Committee for commissioning the survey and the work that it has been involved in around the transfer test, particularly this year's transfer test and the difficulties that that has brought. <BR /> <BR />COVID-19 has had a dramatic impact on education, as it has on all aspects of our lives. I welcome the fact that, today, our children and young people are back in their schools. It is important that the Executive do everything in their power to ensure that our schools remain open. There is a responsibility on parents and others in society to make sure that that happens; we have to mind our actions and be socially responsible, whether around the school gates or in any other aspect of our lives.”
“I note that the Minister's statement refers to the fact that she raised the issue of the withdrawal of the Bus Éireann Dublin to Belfast route: can we expect a statement in the near future saying that that route will be restored? Does the Minister agree that that also puts greater emphasis on the need for the new high-speed link between Belfast and Dublin to be used to boost the economies not only of Belfast and Dublin but of the towns along that route, such as Lurgan, Portadown and Craigavon?”
“The Member rightly talked about workers' rights. The increased expenses that he refers to are to pay his staff, and my staff, a proper wage, however. Is the Member objecting to that?”
“Is it appropriate for the Member to refer to MLAs as "attack dogs"? He said:”
“Is it appropriate for the Member to refer to MLAs as "attack dogs"?”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Is it appropriate for the Member to refer —?”
“The Member's comments on the ability of the system to spend money are valid. It is something that the Executive and the Civil Service need to tackle, because getting money out the door to spend is a vital part of what we do. <BR /> <BR />When talking about fiscal powers, the Member used the example of the money that we got from the Barnett consequentials but cannot spend. One of the difficulties with getting money in-year is that it is very difficult to spend, because you do not have the schemes, operations or staff in place to do so. If you have fiscal powers, you can plan for the long term. You can plan your monetary outworkings. <BR /> <BR />I will finish on this point: how would the money be spent and the tax raised? The Assembly would decide. Have a bit of faith in yourself as well as in others.”
“I appreciate the Member giving way. I have listened to several contributions from the Member today. He asked questions of the Health Minister, he made interventions when other Members were speaking, and, from my room, I listened to him talking about the response to COVID-19. He has spent considerable time telling us what we should not do. I agree with him that we have to learn to live with COVID. We have to create a situation in which our businesses and workers are protected, but our health service also has to be protected. Can the Member enlighten us as to what we should do?”
“They cannot achieve their objective without harming our economy, our political relationships, business or farming — all those other things that are, no doubt, precious to them. <BR /> <BR />Here is what the DUP will have to do. If you are serious about finding common ground and serious about working together, you will have to work with us. You cannot have it all your own way. It is all right for your MPs at Westminster who go for coffees or whatever they do with the European Research Group. You have to work with us and with the Benches over there. If you are serious about working with us on the issue, let us see how serious you are. The amendment is there for you to vote for.”
“I have no difficulty with "light touch", but, a week out from the end of a negotiation, it is not always best to say, "Look, we are prepared to do something". However, I accept the Alliance Party's position and what it is trying to do. It is trying to unite the House on a position. The DUP has spent the last hour or so telling us that we have to reach out and find common ground and that we have to accommodate each other. Well, then, why are they voting against the amendment? The amendment is another compromise from this side of the House, but the DUP will vote against it because, unfortunately, the DUP Members are Brexiteers — red, white and blue Brexiteers. They are not serving the interests of anyone by doing that.”
“I am not sure what the Member is referring to — oh, I do know, yes. I suspect that, if the Member looks back through history, he will find that one of his own representatives worked as a barrister and continued to do so for a time. There was another one who was a doctor and continued to do that work. I ask the Member to check through his notes before he comes up with that sort of stuff. <BR /> <BR />I want to move on to where we go next. The DUP tells us that it will vote against the amendment tonight. I am uncomfortable with the amendment, but it is a compromise. The amendment is a stretch for us, as well, because it:”
“Just give me a second. We all made decisions, and then, lo and behold, the protocol was taken away as well. Where is the compromise? Where is the facilitation? Where is the outreach from the DUP and the Ulster Unionist Party towards those who wish to remain in the European Union? Go ahead.”
“Even when the Assembly came back, we were in a fragile state, and we needed to create stability in politics here because Brexit was the backdrop to the problems that we had in the past.”
“Sinn Féin has a clearly stated position on Westminster: we do not attend. We are active abstentionists in that sense. Has Westminster changed anything in relation to Brexit in a positive manner? No. It has not served the purposes of the people whom we represent in any way, but that is a debate for another day. <BR /> <BR />The soft Brexit option was taken away from us, as was the European representation option. When I say "us", I mean those who wish to see a closer relationship with the European Union. That option was taken away. The protocol was brought forward, and we accepted it. We said, "That is where we are with these negotiations. We need to move on. We need to create stability for our economy, for our businesses and for our society".”
“In one moment. <BR /> <BR />— left us behind again. Go ahead.”
“<BR /> <BR />On European representation, which, again, Mr Givan mentioned, there should be MEPs elected from here, and there still could be MEPs elected from here, but the Dublin Government buckled on that — they buckled on it. There could have been representation from here, only the Dublin Government, which said that the North would never be left behind again —”
“In January 2017, the Executive — they were either up or down at that stage; they were in difficulties — still had a negotiating group going to meet the Scottish Government, the Welsh Government and the British Government on the future direction of Brexit. Theresa May stood up on the Tuesday and announced that we were leaving the customs union and the single market, and we were all due to meet her on the Thursday. That was another rug pulled from underneath us. I think that Mr Dickson referred to the soft approach. In the past, the term "soft Brexit" was used. There could have been a soft Brexit at that stage, had we stayed in the single market and the customs union, and that would have solved the problem, by the way, of borders in any direction. That would have solved the problem, but it was pulled from underneath us.”
“However, as I said in the last debate, we did not bring that border into reality. <BR /> <BR />I think that Mr McAleer made a good point. The Members opposite raised this imagery of a border down the Irish Sea, with controls and gunboats going up and down it and all those sorts of things, but, as Mr McAleer said, there have been checks in the Irish Sea for over 100 years, if not longer. Was it, as I suspect, a negotiating position that has backfired on some on the Benches opposite, given that they have presented the protocol as being much more than it actually is? <BR /> <BR />The protocol is, again, another compromise. In June 2016, many Members on this side of the House voted to remain in the European Union. We then moved forward to the Brexit vote on whether to stay in the customs union and the single market.”