John O'Dowd
Upper Bann · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“As I set out in response to the previous question, we have in place the vacant property rate relief scheme and the small business rate relief scheme, which are very successful. I set aside £10 million in the draft Budget for small business rate relief to be invested.”
“I am particularly keen to hear from those impacted by vacant commercial units and especially about how any phased increase can be implemented in a sustainable way that is fair, proportionate and sustainable within the tax system.”
“I outlined my intent to take that approach in my statement on 18 November, alongside the fact that reform of rating policy should support growth, make better use of property and ensure that the system is fair, proportionate and aligned with wider economic objectives.”
“The accelerator will operate alongside our highly successful Back in Business scheme, which has helped to bring over 100 vacant high street properties back into use since May 2024. Those issues have been the subject of considerable interest and comment in the Assembly, and it is right that we grasp the nettle now.”
“There are no circumstances in which a hard border would be good for the people of Ireland; it would not be good for anyone. Those who suggest that are being naive at best and dangerous at worst, in the sense of not understanding this society. <BR /> <BR />Rural communities along the border are one and the same.”
“This announcement represents the next step in that. That said, I also put on record my intention to strengthen support for small businesses. In that vein, £10 million has been set aside in the draft Budget to broaden the impact of the small business rate relief scheme in order to increase the number of businesses that can benefit from it.…”
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“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I ask that that comment be withdrawn. There is no evidence whatsoever that Sinn Féin has threatened violence over anything.”
“As I mentioned in my original answer, the Assembly Commission is attempting to bring forward a policy on lighting that is broader and more representative of the community that the Assembly represents. The Commission is also looking at an artefacts policy in relation to the symbolism around the Building in order to better represent the widely diverse communities that the Building now represents.”
“I thank the Member for her question. Each application would have to be taken on its merits and matched against the policy and the recommendations of officials, and Commission members would then have to respond in due course.”
“Consensus means that all Commission members are in agreement and/or that members have not given a contrary view in respect of a matter. Commission members have 48 hours to confirm or object to the recommendations of officials on whether a request for special lighting should be approved or declined. A non-response is taken as confirmation of the recommendation of officials.”
“<BR /> <BR />An application to light the Building red to mark the 17th European Day of Remembrance for Victims of Terrorism on 11 March was made by the South East Fermanagh Foundation. The request did not meet the requirements of the policy because the Building had been illuminated in 2019 to mark the European Day, and, when it was put to the Commission, consensus was not achieved. Therefore, the request was not approved. <BR /> <BR />The Commission has been considering whether the lighting of the Building might be appropriate to mark additional events over and above the existing four days chosen by it and named in the current policy. That consideration continues.”
“Such requests must meet certain criteria to be approved. Those criteria include that the special lighting must be in connection with an event that is of exceptional local, national or international significance and/or achievement; of constitutional or democratic significance; or a significant anniversary of a significant local, national or international event. Other than the four days agreed by the Commission, special lighting will not be approved to mark an event that occurs repeatedly, unless it is a significant anniversary of that event. Furthermore, no such event can be marked by special lighting more than once in any three-year period. All requests for special lighting are put to the Commission, and approval requires Commission consensus.”
“With your permission, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will group questions 2 and 13 together, so I may need an extra minute. I thank the Members for their questions. <BR /> <BR />The external lighting of Parliament Buildings is covered by the Parliament Buildings special lighting policy, which was first agreed by the Assembly Commission in 2014 and updated last year. Under the policy, which is available on the Assembly’s website, the Commission agreed that the Building would be lit annually on four days to mark International Women’s Day, Saint Patrick’s Day, the Twelfth of July and Armistice Day. In addition, requests for special lighting to mark other occasions or events can be made by Members, subject to cross-designation support, and by registered charities, public-sector bodies, community or other non-profit-making organisations.”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. It is stiflingly warm in here. I know that there is a lot of hot air at times, but before we move on to the next contribution, could we do something about the heat?”
“The Member has made a detailed and interesting presentation. I am always cautious when listening to selected quotes on legal determinations because often, when you turn the page, there is another legal argument going against your point. I am sure that that will all be sorted out in Committee. <BR /> <BR />If you want to follow your Irish brothers and sisters on the matter, will you encourage your party to commission services that were enacted in law in the legislation that you are seeking to amend? That would be an important step. <BR /> <BR />Maybe you will come to Mr Lunn's point. He said that you told him that this is the end of your legislative journey on the matter rather than the start.”
“There is a trend developing in the Member's speech. You do not want motorways or dual carriageways going west of the Bann, you do not want bridges North/South, and I suspect that you are about to tell us that you do not want Casement. Can the Member understand why I am somewhat suspicious of his motivations?”
“It almost suggests that it is a lesser course or career pathway. If we want to change mindsets, we have to value all students.”
“<BR /> <BR />Minister, it was a huge mistake not to provide the £500 funding to full-time students in colleges. That separates universities and further education colleges”
“Advice is given that suits the needs of the school rather than those of an individual pupil. There, right away, is something that has to be changed in the culture. That goes back to the point I made: if we do not value certain career pathways, young people and their parents will be dissuaded from taking them, even though those pathways can provide a high quality of life, a good salary and a good lifestyle for the person who chooses them. It is often seen as the case that, if you do not attend university, somehow you have not achieved. That is a huge mistake, and it will be detrimental to our economy. Some earlier contributors said that the skills barometer shows that skills are lacking in some areas, particularly in vocational courses.”
“We should value electricians as highly as teachers and bricklayers as highly as IT experts. Not everybody will be able to, want to or have the skill sets to work in IT. Of course we should attract international IT businesses, but we must also have an economy that relates to the people. <BR /> <BR />One comment in the report caught my eye. It is the view of some stakeholders:”
“So, there are huge opportunities in that for our citizens, and we need to give them the proper skill sets to deal with them. <BR /> <BR />I want to concentrate on the element of the report that looks at learning and universities and schools. One particular element caught my eye, which I will come to in a moment. One of the questions at the start was about how we achieve goals. We have to change the mindset about career pathways, and my colleague Jemma Dolan touched on that. Universities are not the best option for everyone, so let us promote other career pathways that are not necessarily associated with universities.”
“However, I suspect that, sometimes, when workers and others hear us discussing the economy in this Building and elsewhere, it is an abstract theory rather than a reality that the decisions that we make here will affect them and their children's lives moving forward. That is perhaps more so now because of the changing circumstances that COVID-19 will bring to a changing world. <BR /> <BR />It is interesting to note that the three major elements that are facing the world today are, obviously, COVID; the changes that will come with Brexit to purchasing goods and to where those goods will be manufactured; and the greening of the economy, because more and more businesses are looking at how they source their materials for the products that they either sell or make.”
“I welcome today's debate and the publication of the Committee's report on its micro inquiry into the skills strategy and economic output. At the start, it is worth asking what the economy means for many in our society and how they relate to it. While there are obviously the macroeconomic questions that we, as policymakers, have to tackle, the relationship between the economy and the consumer or the worker is much different. The basics of it are that the relationship with the economy is such that people require a job to pay the mortgage or the rent, put food on the table and put clothes on their children's backs. Those are the basics, but we want much more than that for our citizens. We want them to be able to have a high quality of life and to have the time, space and finances to have hobbies and luxuries and to enjoy their time as well.”
“The First Minister will be aware that this is not the first occasion on which political unionism has sought common cause with armed loyalist groups. The point that I am making is that these groups are actively involved in crime today, largely against the communities that the DUP represents and unionism represents. When you sat down with them, you did not seek that they go away; you sat down seeking common cause in your opposition to the protocol. Do you not believe that that was a mistake?”
“Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. There is a growing trend in the Chamber to abuse Standing Orders by raising points of order. That is a classic example of it. Will the Speaker undertake to look at how Members use points of order in the Chamber?”
“I never doubted for one moment that Jimmy was a unionist, but I always believed that he was here, as many are — with the greatest respect to everybody in the Chamber, we are all here trying to do a job — to try to make this place work for everyone. As I said at the start of my tribute to him, he is a classic example of how peacebuilding is achieved: at a one-to-one level as much as at Government-to-Government level. <BR /> <BR />I always found Jimmy to be courteous but firm. As I said, he was a political figure who could give his point of view without inflaming or antagonising the situation. On behalf of Sinn Féin, I pass on deepest sympathies to his wife, Lynda, and his four sons.”
“On behalf of Sinn Féin, I want to pay our tribute to Jimmy Spratt. My experience of Jimmy mirrors yours, Mr Speaker. I got to know him through the Assembly, and it was a classic example of the fact that peacebuilding is not something that simply happens between Governments, political parties or communities: it has to be at a personal level. Jimmy's background was very different from mine, and I never thought that I would be standing here and paying tribute to a former RUC man. However, Jimmy was the sort of character who was firm in his own beliefs and could express them, but he did so in a way that did not antagonise or inflame the situation.”
“On that point, I and others have been lobbying the Agriculture Minister about the eel fisherman. The money is available; it comes from EU maritime funding. The money is there; the scheme is there. It just has not been paid.”
“Will the Minister elaborate on why it is important that we operate according to the "health, community and economic data", as she outlined, rather than dealing simply with dates?”
“I thank the joint First Minister for the statement and welcome the publication of the pathway report. There has been much debate, including in the Chamber today, of data versus dates. Does the joint First Minister agree that COVID does not have a calendar or a diary secretary and does not work to dates but does work to human behaviour? That is why it is correct that, in the plan, we operate to data.”
“I understand that Commission members received communication from the secretariat about a lighting paper and the request that the Member refers to. It is now up to Commission members to respond. I am reluctant to go into detail on it because I do not believe that it is necessarily a budgetary matter. <BR /> <BR />In conclusion, Commission members considered the requirements for the 2021-22 budget. While recognising that a significant element of its budget is non-discretionary, the prevailing circumstances were also considered. The Commission is grateful to the Audit Committee for its work on scrutinising and affirming the 2021-22 budget total of £49·333 million for resource DEL and £1·684 million for capital DEL. I commend those amounts to the House.”
“Indeed. <BR /> <BR />Moving on, I do not believe that lighting is an issue for Budget deliberations. I am sure that the Member will be able to submit questions or other communications on lighting policy to the Commission.”
“I am disappointed, not astounded. Rhetoric is cheap; action costs. The Commission, across all its political hues, has decided that it will pay staff properly. Indeed, in relation even to Assembly —”
“The principle of the Bill sounds fine, but I am speaking as a member of the Commission. The party will engage with you on your Bill.”
“You chose to vote against that legislation. In fact — dare I say it? — you followed the path of wee Jim Allister instead of big Jim Larkin. You talk the talk, but you need to walk the walk. When it comes to improving workers' rights, the Assembly Commission has walked the walk.”
“Of course, the Budget is scrutinised by the Audit Committee, of which I understand that Mr Allister is a member. The Budget will be brought before the House today, and Members will have an opportunity to vote for or against it. The Commission has adopted the same principles for the upcoming centenary as we have for the decade of centenaries. Indeed, we agreed a paper on it quite recently. The same principles have been applied to all the significant centenaries over the last period. <BR /> <BR />Mr Carroll is a classic example of, "Do as I say, not as I do". The Commission has provided proper terms and conditions and wages to workers. I do not delineate between workers. If someone works for an Assembly Member, that should not mean that they have fewer rights and entitlements and a lower salary than someone else.”
“It does not include unnecessary sums that cannot be justified, nor is it threadbare to the extent that the services required by Members will not be able to be provided. It strikes a balance for the final year of the mandate, with the anticipation of a heavy legislative programme in circumstances that are likely to remain challenging for everyone in Parliament Buildings. This Budget should enable the Commission to meet the necessary costs that arise in-year in relation to staff costs, Building running costs, the costs of the delivery of effective constituency services for our community, and the ongoing cost of investing in infrastructure to ensure that it continues to meet Assembly needs. <BR /> <BR />I will respond now to some of the issues raised by Members.”
“In the current circumstances, when we are likely to face significant financial pressures and, in fact, in all circumstances, the Commission is mindful that when it provides the services that are required by the Assembly, it does so in a way that delivers value for money. The point is regularly made that the Commission must provide the Assembly and every Member who is elected to the House with all the services that are required to carry out the Assembly's legislative scrutiny and representative functions. That will remain the Commission's overarching objective as we approach the end of the Assembly mandate. <BR /> <BR />The Commission considers the Budget for next year as being sufficient without being excessive.”
“I thank Members for their contributions to the debate. As my colleague John Blair noted in his introductory remarks, the Assembly Commission is mindful of the fact that the Assembly should debate the Commission's budget in plenary. That is important because the resources that are made available to the Commission will be used to provide services to the Assembly and all its Members.”
“Thank you for your answer, Minister. I understand that, as part of the review, there are proposals to increase the maximum tariff of 14 years for driving under the influence of drink or drugs. Given that the 14-year sentence has rarely been used, how can the Minister assure victims of such crimes that justice will be served?”
“— but I am interested in having a cup of coffee with my unionist neighbours and working our way through this. You need to learn that this room is where you need to make your friends, not elsewhere.”
“I have no interest in sipping champagne in Europe or in London or elsewhere —”
“Despite everything that has been thrown at us, we have an opportunity to create businesses, well-paid jobs and a flourishing economy. <BR /> <BR />Mr Stalford referred to us bringing forward non-binding debates. I was surprised yesterday when I learnt that, despite a petition being signed by 140,000 people — a petition is a legitimate political device to use — a debate in Westminster was held in a side room, 20 MPs turned up, largely remotely, and no vote was taken. One of the biggest mistakes that the current generation of unionism has made is this: you have gone elsewhere looking for friends and allies, when your friends and allies are actually in this room. You have spent too much time chasing English nationalism instead of sitting down with Irish nationalism and Irish republicanism in order to map a way forward.”
“Some businesses face the barriers that you outlined, and the Joint Committee and others should try to their full potential to minimise them. However, if trade and jobs can be created here because the goods cannot be brought in from elsewhere, no matter where that elsewhere is, let us create the trade here. Was Brexit not about taking back control? Was that not what it was about? <BR /> <BR />Listening to some from the unionist Benches, the mistake that they made from the very start was to believe their own propaganda about Brexit. They hitched their wagon to English nationalism, and now they appear to be more concerned about industry in the south of England than they are about industry in south Antrim, north Antrim, south Belfast or wherever it may be.”
“I will in a moment. Some businesses are facing difficulties. Other businesses are expanding, growing and taking on new employees. I give way to Mr Allister.”
“People are going to food banks for a lot of reasons, but it is not because of the protocol. What is this suffering that we talk about?”
“We are talking about reaching out, through Invest NI, InterTradeIreland, Co-operation Overseas, the Executive's office in Brussels and the bureaux in the United States of America, Canada and China, to those investors to say, "You have an opportunity." Mr Allister said that we would be being untruthful, or perhaps presenting half-truths, with investors if we were to say to them, "Come here, there is huge opportunity for your business to grow". He claims that they cannot grow because we have closed off trade with Britain, but we have not. Others refer to the suffering of people because of the protocol. It depends on the definition of suffering. As a society that has been all too familiar with suffering, we know the scale of suffering. However, I think that we can be pretty sure that nobody is going to a food bank because of the protocol.”
“It has grown incrementally every year. Despite the fact that it has not been supported, has not been invested in in the way that it should be and, at times, has been ignored, it has grown. There is an opportunity there, as part of our broader trading with the EU, to create more jobs, businesses and wealth for the people we serve. <BR /> <BR />Today's motion calls on the Executive to establish an all-encompassing strategy to ensure that the trading opportunities that exist around the world are achieved.”
“<BR /> <BR />Here we are, back to where Caoimhe started and the reality of where we are and the certainty of it. We have a new certainty, the protocol with its flaws, an opportunity to trade with 450 million people in the EU and the opportunity to trade with 60 million people in the UK. How do we exploit it? How does our Economy Minister exploit that opportunity to ensure that she creates and sustains businesses, creates new, well-paid jobs for our society, attracts investment here and supports our small and medium enterprises and our indigenous businesses? There has to be a change of focus and mindset from our Economy Minister and the political party that has run the Department for the Economy for the last 10 years. Despite the fact that successive Economy Ministers have turned their back on the all-Ireland economy, it has grown.”
“Yes, I do accept that, but the most important reason that it is not going anywhere is that there is no desire within the British Government for it to go anywhere, for the reasons that I have outlined. <BR /> <BR />On article 16, whether the EU invoked it or not — I am on the side of the argument that it did not invoke it, but I am not going to go down that rabbit hole at the minute — if you cannot — the EU backed down on this — invoke article 16 to protect life-saving vaccines, under what circumstances can you invoke article 16? Think about it. The EU was not prepared to invoke it to protect vaccine supplies. What do you think the British Government are going to invoke it for? They all stepped back from it and said, "No, we are not going there".”
“That is the major flaw in the unionist strategy. No matter how angry you get — I think that some of the anger is with yourselves, some of your negotiators or some of the parties in the negotiations — the protocol is going nowhere. Why would the British Government risk the economy of England, which was largely what Brexit was about? Would Scotland and Wales allow them to risk further uncertainty in their economies by renegotiating the protocol? It simply is not going to happen.”
“Despite our best efforts to make sure that it did not happen to this part of Ireland and the island, Brexit has happened, the protocol is in place, and, 50-odd days afterwards, the problems, some of which are significant and some of which have been highly exaggerated, are beginning to be resolved. They will not all be able to be resolved, because the reality is that the protocol is the love child of Brexit. Therefore, as long as Brexit exists, the protocol will exist. <BR /> <BR />Our motion recognises the reality of North/South and east-west trade and its importance to our economy. What businesses, employees, families and workers desire most is certainty. Unless there is a major change in the economic trading strategy of the British Government — this one or, perhaps, the next — the protocol is going nowhere.”
“I think that we have had several debates in one. We had a debate on the motion and the amendment, a debate on the inter-concerns in the DUP and unionism in general about the protocol, the future and where things are going, a debate on the all-Ireland economy, and a debate on the champagne-swigging Europeans. <BR /> <BR />What summed up the debate for me was Caoimhe Archibald's opening comments, which I will paraphrase. Caoimhe said that we now have a new trading reality after four years of trading uncertainty. Businesses now have certainty and know the trading environment within which they are working.”
“— our political leaders say that we are facing a crisis, it does not give confidence. <BR /> <BR />Let us use the opportunities that are in front of us. I accept that there are problems for some businesses with the protocol, but there are also huge opportunities as a result of it.”
“We do. You need to reflect on that yourself, Mr Storey. Is your campaign against the protocol giving confidence to the business community or is it causing difficulties in that community? At the early stages of the campaign on the protocol, your leader quite rightly pointed out that there are huge economic opportunities for businesses as a result of the protocol. Invest NI now has enquiries coming in from across the globe about how businesses could set up here in order to create jobs and prosperity for our people. When those businesses are looking at scenes such as those that we saw at Larne or Belfast, or they hear —”
“That was before Brexit, before COVID-19 and before anybody had heard of the protocol, so we have a long, long way to go to try to create a fair economic recovery for all.”