John O'Dowd
Upper Bann · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“As I set out in response to the previous question, we have in place the vacant property rate relief scheme and the small business rate relief scheme, which are very successful. I set aside £10 million in the draft Budget for small business rate relief to be invested.”
“I am particularly keen to hear from those impacted by vacant commercial units and especially about how any phased increase can be implemented in a sustainable way that is fair, proportionate and sustainable within the tax system.”
“I outlined my intent to take that approach in my statement on 18 November, alongside the fact that reform of rating policy should support growth, make better use of property and ensure that the system is fair, proportionate and aligned with wider economic objectives.”
“The accelerator will operate alongside our highly successful Back in Business scheme, which has helped to bring over 100 vacant high street properties back into use since May 2024. Those issues have been the subject of considerable interest and comment in the Assembly, and it is right that we grasp the nettle now.”
“There are no circumstances in which a hard border would be good for the people of Ireland; it would not be good for anyone. Those who suggest that are being naive at best and dangerous at worst, in the sense of not understanding this society. <BR /> <BR />Rural communities along the border are one and the same.”
“This announcement represents the next step in that. That said, I also put on record my intention to strengthen support for small businesses. In that vein, £10 million has been set aside in the draft Budget to broaden the impact of the small business rate relief scheme in order to increase the number of businesses that can benefit from it.…”
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“I will conclude my comments. As I said, the Act covers a wide range of issues. Three areas fall under devolved competence and are therefore our responsibility, and we would have been asked for legislative consent to introduce them. The broader issues are outside my control and the Executive's control, but I reassure the Assembly and the Committee for Finance that lessons have been learnt. This situation should never have arisen in the first place, and the permanent secretary and I have put in place measures to ensure that it does not happen in the future.”
“Again, tracts of the Act fall outside the Executive's remit. Under the Act, the Secretary of State or the Treasury is empowered to establish smart data schemes through regulations. The implementation of smart data schemes, however, touches on consumer protection, economic regulation and digital services, which are areas that fall within the Assembly's competence. The Act's application must therefore reflect our local regulations. Any smart data scheme that is introduced here must align with our consumer priorities, economic strategies and digital inclusions. I ask the Member to put his questions on the broader issue of workers' rights to the Minister for the Economy.”
“Just one second. Members may have views on parts of the legislation other than the provisions on smart data, the Digital Economy Act and the National Underground Asset Register, but those are the Assembly's three areas of competence. Go ahead.”
“Primary responsibility rests with the Department — I fully accept that — but let us all learn lessons from the process. <BR /> <BR />As to some of the commentary around the Act itself, I have outlined the three areas where devolved matters are covered: smart data, the National Underground Assets Register and a requirement for updating the Digital Economy Act 2017. The Act covers a lot more, but it is not the responsibility of the Assembly. We would not have been asked in the LCM for our views on those broader matters. They are outside the remit of the Assembly. Members may have varying views on pieces of the legislation such as Mr Carroll referred to.”
“I fully accept that, and lessons have to be learned from this. I have had engagement with my permanent secretary about it to ensure that we do not end up in this position again. The Chair of the Committee referred to radio silence from the Department to the Committee. There should never be radio silence from the Department to the Committee, but it is a two-way radio. The Committee, through the diligence of the Clerk, it has to be said, made the Committee aware of the legislation coming through, and there was some engagement initially. Then there was radio silence. However, let us make sure that the radio is working both ways and that there is communication flowing both ways: from the Department to the Committee and from the Committee to the Department.”
“I cannot answer that question at the moment, but I will certainly supply you with that information. <BR /> <BR />It is clear that officials should have engaged with the Committee for Finance sooner on the matter, and the House should have been afforded the opportunity to fully consider the devolved provisions of the Bill. My permanent secretary has taken steps to ensure that such circumstances are not repeated, and, as has been noted, the permanent secretary and the deputy permanent secretary responsible for the matter appeared before the Committee and hopefully reassured it, as best they could, that lessons had been learnt from this. <BR /> <BR />If I were sitting on the Benches where Members are sitting, I would also be less than amused that we are in the situation that we are.”
“I have written to the Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology to highlight the fact that it is a fundamental obligation of the Government to ensure that there is early and proper engagement, in particular around devolution analysis and any relevant article 2(1) Windsor framework assessments, to ensure that the experience of Data (Use and Access) Bill is not repeated.”
“I have noted the many issues raised by Members, and I will endeavour to respond to as many as possible in my closing comments on the debate. <BR /> <BR />I absolutely accept that not laying a legislative consent motion for the Data (Use and Access) Bill is not a situation in which we should have found ourselves. The Bill was a complex matter and created a need to seek clarity on the Bill's implications for the post-Brexit Windsor framework and assess the views offered on the proposed legislation by the Human Rights Commission. The British Government's reluctance to share their complete article 2(1) Windsor framework assessment of the Bill in a timely manner was a significant contributing factor to the delays in progressing an LCM.”
“<BR /> <BR />I ask the Assembly to note the passage of the Data (Use and Access) Act and to recognise the opportunities and responsibilities that it presents. I also ask the Assembly to note the relevant provisions of the Act dealing with smart data, the National Underground Asset Register and the amendment of section 35 of the Digital Economy Act 2017, as those matters fall within the legislative competence of the Assembly.”
“As a result, the British Government chose to defer commencement of certain provisions, hoping that a restored Executive would later provide consent. In some cases, such as research and statistical provisions, the British Government eventually proceeded with limited implementation to avoid undermining the consistency of data across the regions. To fully use the data sharing powers in section 35 of the Digital Economy Act 2017, we must pass local regulations to activate the section, define which public bodies can share data and adopt the UK's data sharing code of practice. Departmental officials are working to implement the necessary steps to enable those regulations to be laid before the Assembly.”
“<BR /> <BR />I draw your attention to the important legislative requirements that accompany the section 35 amendment to the Data (Use and Access) Act. To fully enact those changes, it will be necessary to update the Digital Economy Act 2017. During the passage of the Act through Westminster, it was intended that a legislative consent motion would be sought from the Assembly for provisions that touched on devolved matters, particularly those in part 5 of the Act, which deal with data sharing for public service delivery, research and statistics. The absence of a functioning devolved Government at the time of the Act's passage prevented the necessary legislative consent, delaying full implementation of the Act's provisions here.”
“That is particularly relevant to devolved areas, such as healthcare, education, housing and social services, all of which rely on timely and accurate data to function effectively. The expanded data sharing provisions have the potential to ensure the coordination and delivery of public services. By enabling relevant agencies to access and share appropriate information, the system can reduce duplication, enhance service efficiency and support more timely and informed decision-making across sectors such as health, education and social care. Those powers must be accompanied by appropriate safeguards. Data sharing must comply with legal and ethical standards as well as data protection regulations. We must play a central role in regulating those powers.”
“DFI has engaged throughout the drafting of the Bill and its views have been considered. It has not raised any concerns about the relevant devolved provisions. <BR /> <BR />The third devolved area that is impacted on by the Act is the amendment to section 35 of the Digital Economy Act 2017, which governs data sharing between public bodies for the benefit of individuals and households. The amendment expands the scope of the data sharing gateway, allowing Ministers to make regulations that enable the disclosure of information between specified bodies for a broader range of objectives, including improving the delivery of public services, targeting support to vulnerable groups and enhancing administrative efficiency.”
“While the goal of NUAR is to reduce disruption, lower costs and enhance public safety, it presents constitutional and practical considerations due to the concurrent exercise of powers. <BR /> <BR />The Act acknowledges the unique infrastructure and governance needs of the devolved regions by mandating formal consultation with devolved Administrations before any substantial changes to NUAR protocols. However, we must ensure that its implementation is conducted in collaboration with the Executive. Our local authorities, utilities and infrastructure providers must be fully engaged. The data must be accurate, secure and accessible. The governance of the register must reflect our devolved responsibilities. Responsibility for NUAR lies with the Minister for Infrastructure.”
“It has not raised any concerns about the relevant devolved provisions. <BR /> <BR />The second devolved area affected by the Act is the establishment of the National Underground Asset Register (NUAR). The initiative seeks to create a comprehensive digital map of underground infrastructure: pipes, cables, ducts and other buried assets. The aim is to reduce accidental damage caused during street works, improve safety and streamline planning and maintenance. Street works and the regulation of underground apparatus are devolved matters. Currently, Executive Ministers have regulation powers in that area. The Act will make those powers concurrently exercisable by the Secretary of State, enabling the British Government to implement NUAR across all regions, including here.”
“However, the implementation of smart data schemes touches on consumer protection, economic regulation and digital services: areas that fall within the competence of the Assembly. Therefore, the application of the Act must reflect our local regulations. Any smart data scheme introduced here must align with our consumer priorities, economic strategy and digital inclusion goals. That presents an opportunity for us to be at the forefront in the ethical and effective use of consumer data. However, it also necessitates careful oversight to ensure that devolved powers are maintained and that citizens' rights are safeguarded. The Minister for the Economy holds responsibility for smart data schemes. DFE has consulted throughout the drafting of the Bill, and its views have been considered.”
“I will outline those devolved areas and explain their implications. <BR /> <BR />The first devolved area that is impacted on by the Act is the introduction of the smart data schemes. The schemes are designed to give consumers greater control over their personal data by enabling them to authorise trusted third parties to access and use that data on their behalf. It is a consumer empowerment initiative that aims to allow individuals to seamlessly switch service providers, compare offers and access tailored services in sectors such as banking, energy and telecommunications. The goal is to foster competition, drive innovation and improve outcomes for consumers. <BR /> <BR />Under the Act, the Secretary of State or the Treasury is empowered to establish the schemes through regulations.”
“I regret that the matter was not brought to the Committee for Finance and to the House sooner. The delay in laying the legislative consent motion (LCM) is not a situation that we should have found ourselves in. My officials are committed to ensuring that it does not happen again. <BR /> <BR />That said, the Act was passed at Westminster, receiving Royal Assent on 19 June. The provisions affecting devolved matters are now law. Our task is to ensure that their implementation is done in a way that respects our devolved competencies and serves the best interests of our people. The British Government's aim with the Act is to improve how data is accessed, shared and used here and across England, Scotland and Wales. The Act contains three provisions that intersect with devolved competencies.”
“I welcome the opportunity to introduce the motion. <BR /> <BR />At the outset, I must address the procedural context of our current situation. As you are aware, the Sewel convention stipulates that the Westminster Parliament should not legislate in devolved areas without the consent of the devolved legislatures. Unfortunately, the legislative consent memorandum process was not completed on schedule. The delay was primarily caused by the British Government's reluctance to share the complete article 2(1) Windsor framework assessment on the Bill. The Data (Use and Access) Bill was a complex matter and required the need to seek clarity on the Bill's implications for the post-Brexit Windsor framework and to assess the views offered on the proposed legislation by the Human Rights Commission.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-Leas-Cheann Comhairle.”
“I am talking about a barrister who was at the top of his game and is now a High Court judge who was advising me every step of the way. You can still go into court and another person can take a different view of all the advice that you have been given, and you are back to square one. <BR /> <BR />We have to dust ourselves down. We have to look at the broader issue of infrastructure and our construction projects and how susceptible they are to judicial review. In relation to the A5, the Infrastructure Minister will come forward with the next steps.”
“The challenge for anybody making a decision on a major construction project is this: there are multiple ways to challenge it legally. I could fill the centre of that floor with the paperwork and documentation that had to be read, agreed, scrutinised, challenged and legally proofed before I could sign off on a project such as the A5. We have that amount of documentation, procedure and policy, and it is not all procurement; it is legislation that we have to go through. It is primary legislation and secondary legislation. There has been much discussion around the Climate Change Act 2022, but there are other environmental and human rights implications etc. You try to get all of those in the place where you need them with your best intentions in mind and the best advice that is available to you — and it was the best advice.”
“I do not know what the advice would have been after a contest in court — there is always different analysis of this — none of those decisions were made in isolation from the most senior advice that I could receive at the time, and I am satisfied that I acted responsibly in delivering that decision. <BR /> <BR />None of that matters to the families who have lost loved ones on the A5. I have no doubt that the judgement has retraumatised them and has been a major blow to the people who use that road and the communities that have suffered as a result of that road. However, I assure you that the determination is there to deliver the A5, and, when we set aside all the petty politics, the understandable frustration and the understandable anger, we will map a way forward to build the A5.”
“Other parts of the equation have to be answered first before we know what will happen financially. The Infrastructure Minister has to analyse all options on the way forward to deliver that project, and she is already on the public record about that. If there are delays, any funds that will not be spent will have to be surrendered to the Executive, and the Executive will make a decision on the way forward. <BR /> <BR />It is a hugely disappointing decision. It is a complex issue and area. I am the Minister who was responsible for making the decision that was overturned by the judge, and I accept my responsibility in that. However, I approached the matter with the utmost seriousness. I acted, at all times, in relation to the advice that I received, including the advice of a senior barrister who is now a High Court judge.”
“If there is a way to do things differently, let us do them differently.”
“I am not aware of any legislative barrier or procedural barrier or protocol that prevents any Minister from sitting down with another Minister and asking, "What can we do together?". It is there. They can do it. In some instances, that engagement may not necessarily be at ministerial level. It could be at agency or arm's-length body level. As I said in response to a question earlier, arm's-length bodies spend considerable public funds, so there is definitely a possibility there for coordination across arm's-length bodies in the delivery of projects and funding. However, as we move forward through the budgetary process, I will urge Ministers to look at all opportunities to use the limited resources that we have more effectively and efficiently. That includes more working together, whether at macro level or micro level.”
“I saw another report in a similar vein. Quite rightly, in the Chamber, we challenge each other and go back and forth about what is not going right, but, if the analysis of that report is correct, we are on the brink of a significant uplift in the construction industry, not only in housing but in public investment in major projects. From reading that report, it seems to me that it is not all doom and gloom in the construction sector and that there are some good news stories. I am broadening the answer, just as Members sometimes broaden their questions. There are perhaps brighter times ahead for the construction sector than some would have us believe.”
“<BR /> <BR />I noted that, last week, an article on a Construction Information Services (CIS) report on construction in the North, which was not given the prominence that it perhaps should have been, said:”
“The Member is correct. The later that you allocate capital, the more difficult it is to spend. The investment in housing is an important investment, and we have committed to a further £2 million at least in future monitoring rounds. As I have said to others about the A5, there is a process to go through. We have had an important judgement — a disappointing judgement, it has to be said — but that judgement has to be analysed. The Infrastructure Minister will advise on the way forward. If there is to be a slippage in that funding, it will be surrendered to the Executive, and the Executive will decide on the way forward. We commit to doing that, and I am sure that social housing will be high on the list of priorities.”
“The Justice Minister and I have had good discussions, and I am committed, as stated in this paper, to supporting the police in this financial year. I am committed to bringing forward proposals to the Executive, as part of the three-year budgetary period, to fulfil the business case and recruit to policing to the required level.”
“There are many reasons why you want to have a properly resourced police service. One of the areas that has suffered as a result of the understaffing of the police is neighbourhood policing. From the experience in my area, I know that neighbourhood policing can change entirely a relationship between a community and policing that, in the past, was far from good. A shortage of policing damages the way that the police can operate on the ground. As you pointed out, it also means more overtime, which means more stress for the officers who are doing it. It can lead to higher sickness levels among police and to an inefficient policing service. It was only right and proper that, after analysis of the business case that was forwarded, it was signed off.”
“The DFI Minister will finalise her budget allocations. In previous years, however, that Department has allocated around half a billion pounds to NI Water, which is a significant investment. I heard the clamour last week for the privatisation of NI Water, the introduction of domestic water charges and the placing of further financial burdens on working families through the back door. For those who have not heard it yet or do not understand it yet: we are not introducing domestic water charges; we are not privatising NI Water. Hear what we are saying and move on from that agenda, because it is not going to deliver what you want it to deliver.”
“<BR /> <BR />I have always said in the Chamber that one of the first questions that I ask a Minister when they meet me is this: "What are you doing to help yourself?". That is about having efficient and effective management of budgets, at ministerial and departmental level. I have also said that the Committees play an important role. Committees scrutinise Departments, and the scrutiny of departmental budgets is probably one of the most important tasks that a Committee can take on. I encourage the Committees to continue their good work in that regard.”
“I share the Member's frustration about the use of the £5 million. It is right and proper to give it to the PSNI and to support it in that regard. However, that money was literally wasted. That £5 million could have been used to start the recruitment of extra PSNI officers. It could have been used to recruit nurses, teachers or classroom assistants — you name it, and that money could have been used for that. It is very frustrating that a minority of thugs have cost this society £5 million, at least, because there will be extra Justice consequences, as well as compensation costs and the cost of lost opportunities, as a result of their thuggery. They have cost this society a lot in reputational and financial terms.”
“<BR /> <BR />Where funds will be or have been surrendered as a result of the delay in delivering the A5, all those moneys, apart from the Irish Government's moneys, have to come back to the Executive for further allocation according to whatever decisions the Executive take. As I said, however, we are not at that point yet. A lot of consideration is yet to be taken on the next steps on this journey.”
“As I understand it, the Minister for Infrastructure will be writing to the landowners who are affected by the quashing of the orders. I will also say this, however: a judicial statement and decision is a very important moment, but that also deserves consideration. I do not think that it will be the end of this journey. Let us see what decisions the DFI Minister has yet to take and what she brings forward to the House and to other places on what, she believes, is the best way forward. If we come to the position where redress or compensation are required, that is a conversation that the Executive will have to have, moving forward.”
“Last week, a second call was made to Departments for projects to utilise the £102 million of funding that is there for transformation. <BR /> <BR />I also want to see the three-year Budget as a transformation Budget. As I said earlier, it is over a decade since the Executive had access to a three-year Budget. We have an opportunity now to plan ahead, with limited resources — I accept that — and to do things differently in the time ahead. It can be a game changer, but it will be so only if we take the opportunity. I am going to work with my Executive colleagues and my officials will work with their counterparts in other Departments to use the Budget for transformation.”
“Yes. Since the establishment of the public-sector transformation board, significant progress has been made. In March this year, I announced in the Assembly the first tranche of successful projects, allocating over £129 million in funding across projects in healthcare, special educational needs, justice and infrastructure. Last week, I announced the appointment of two new members, Gareth Hetherington and Professor Helen McCarthy, to the public-sector transformation board. Their skills and expertise complement the existing board and will enable us to continue to deliver positive transformation in the way that we deliver our public services and change people's lives for the better. The board's expansion comes about after the confirmation of its terms of reference.”
“In fairness to my predecessor and my officials during my tenure in this office, we have spent a considerable amount of time working with the Treasury. It understands our position, and we understand its position. We have managed to reach a number of quite good agreements with the Treasury that are beneficial to the Executive and public services here. The FTC agreement is one of them. I am more than happy to write to you to set out the technical matters, but it is a good agreement. It has come about as a result of a lot of work behind the scenes between my Department and the Treasury.”
“Ultimately, it will be a decision for the Executive, but the indications from Executive colleagues thus far are that they are agreeable to funding policing to the level that it requires.”
“I thank the Member for her question. I had a very useful meeting and conversation with the Justice Minister last week about that. This is about new money going to the Department of Justice that is ring-fenced for the recovery of policing numbers. The challenge remains on the table for the Justice Minister. Every Department, arm's-length body and agency, whichever category the police fall into, have responsibilities here too in order to ensure that there is effective and efficient delivery of public services, there is transformation and we are looking at new ways of delivering services. The business case for policing stacked up, and that is why I agreed that we could bring forward resource, as part of the three-year Budget process, to fund the business case for policing and the recovery of officer numbers.”
“I support all sport. Sport is a good thing. It benefits our society and our communities immeasurably. I am more than up for the discussion about how we support other sporting organisations, but we have to get Casement Park moving.”
“I welcome the allocation of £50 million by the British Government to the Casement Park project. It is a very welcome and substantial commitment, and the Executive and all the partners in the project need to grasp that and move forward. I have asked for a meeting with the Communities Minister to discuss how we will move that project forward; how we will ensure that the funding is available — it may be required to be made available — and will be secured in the time ahead; and how we will deliver the project for west Belfast, greater Belfast and the entire island. <BR /> <BR />I am acutely aware, and am on record as saying, that there are other sporting organisations that also require support.”
“It is only right and proper that there is full accountability and transparency regarding spend by arm's-length bodies and that we ensure that they are working to a plan that is in line with the Executive's Budget and the commitments that we, as Ministers, have around our budgets as well. <BR /> <BR />Everybody would like more cash: that is clear. Nobody needs to say that any more. We all know that we would like more cash. However, the reality is that the 2025-26 Budget has been allocated, and it is now the responsibility of Departments and arm's-length bodies to live within their budgets and make the necessary decisions to do so.”
“I thank the Member for her question. There are two different treatments of resource DEL. The resource DEL referred to in the statement relates to cash that may only be used for non-cash depreciation and impairment costs. It cannot be used to fund other services. That is in that category. When it comes to the overall Budget, no money has been lost to the Executive to spend. <BR /> <BR />However, if I picked the Member up properly, I share her concern about the overestimation of budgets and requirements, particularly in our arm's-length bodies. It must be remembered that, in many Departments, arm's-length bodies spend the vast amount of money given to that Department.”
“All ring-fenced funding — the A5 funding is ring-fenced — will have to be returned to the Executive for allocation to other Departments, if we reach that stage. A number of hurdles have to be navigated before we even reach that stage. Most Members in the Chamber are united in backing the building of the A5, but some should be cautious about taking political opportunity or party political point-scoring when it comes to the objective. If we all share the same objective of getting the A5 built, let us work together to do that.”
“I thank the Member for his question. I deeply regret the outcome of the court judgement last Monday. I was hopeful, going into that court, that I and the advisers and civil servants from the Department had presented a case that would overcome the judicial review. That was not the case. However, that is not the same as me neglecting or failing in my role as Minister, as I have heard some suggest inside and outside the Chamber. The judgement needs to be studied, and the Department for Infrastructure and its Minister will decide on the next steps to be taken. However, it is too early to say whether the totality of the A5 budget will or will not be spent, or whether some or all of it will have to be returned. It will not be lost to the Executive to spend.”
“New ways of delivering services will be required, and each of us as Ministers must look in our Departments to find the transformational change that is needed for us to make good on the ambitions of the Programme for Government. <BR /> <BR />This will be the Executive's first multi-year Budget in over 10 years. It will provide an important opportunity to put our finances on a more sustainable footing and, along with the Programme for Government, will set the Executive’s long-term strategic direction. I will work with my Executive colleagues to develop a Budget that supports families, workers and communities. I commend the June monitoring outcome to the Assembly.”
“With public expenditure likely to be constrained for some time, transformation must be an essential part of the Budget if the Executive are to deliver their ambitions within the funding available. My Department is engaging with Departments on their five-year financial sustainability plans following formal guidance that issued in April. The production of those plans provides Departments with an opportunity to identify the actions that they intend to take to transform the delivery of public services so that the future cost of service delivery aligns with the expected budgets. <BR /> <BR />The challenge that we collectively face is clear. We have a growing disconnect between the cost of delivering services and the resources that are available. The need for the transformation of services is well established.”
“In total, those amount to £148·4 million resource DEL and £13·2 million capital DEL. <BR /> <BR />In conclusion, as an Executive, we have worked together to collectively agree allocations that will make a positive difference to citizens across society. Much-needed funding is being provided for childcare; special educational needs; ending violence against women and girls; policing; our higher education sector; and social housing. The allocations announced as part of June monitoring, including the indicative allocations that the Executive agreed as part of the Budget, total over £237 million resource DEL and £42 million capital DEL and will help to alleviate some of the many pressures facing Departments. <BR /> <BR />My Department’s focus will now turn to the multi-year Budget process.”