John O'Dowd
Upper Bann · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“As I set out in response to the previous question, we have in place the vacant property rate relief scheme and the small business rate relief scheme, which are very successful. I set aside £10 million in the draft Budget for small business rate relief to be invested.”
“I am particularly keen to hear from those impacted by vacant commercial units and especially about how any phased increase can be implemented in a sustainable way that is fair, proportionate and sustainable within the tax system.”
“I outlined my intent to take that approach in my statement on 18 November, alongside the fact that reform of rating policy should support growth, make better use of property and ensure that the system is fair, proportionate and aligned with wider economic objectives.”
“The accelerator will operate alongside our highly successful Back in Business scheme, which has helped to bring over 100 vacant high street properties back into use since May 2024. Those issues have been the subject of considerable interest and comment in the Assembly, and it is right that we grasp the nettle now.”
“There are no circumstances in which a hard border would be good for the people of Ireland; it would not be good for anyone. Those who suggest that are being naive at best and dangerous at worst, in the sense of not understanding this society. <BR /> <BR />Rural communities along the border are one and the same.”
“This announcement represents the next step in that. That said, I also put on record my intention to strengthen support for small businesses. In that vein, £10 million has been set aside in the draft Budget to broaden the impact of the small business rate relief scheme in order to increase the number of businesses that can benefit from it.…”
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“We talk about the impact of climate change, but many parts of the world are already experiencing it. <BR /> <BR />The question for you, Minister, is this: are you serious about protecting the climate? Thus far, you have not lived up to your obligations under NDNA on independent environmental protection. Down through the years in the Chamber, we have heard you and several of your colleagues resisting independent environmental protection. The question that therefore needs to be satisfied, Minister, is this: are you serious about playing your part on climate change and not using the farming community as a battering ram against it? I do not believe that that is where the farming community wants to be. I believe that the farming community, like urban dwellers, understands that it has a significant role to play in tackling climate change.”
“I have met many farmers who have questions about the Bill before us today and about subsequent Bills, but there is a mistrust in all of this. I do not want to personalise that around the Minister, but his record on international standards of environmental protection is not a good one. I am not saying that the Minister does not care about the environment or the climate, but he has a different view on it to many leading experts around the globe. He will quote other experts back at me: it is almost like the COVID debate, with experts coming back and forth at you. There is a recognition, however, that, unless we reach net zero within an acceptable time frame, we are in for a climate disaster: a disaster that is already being faced in many parts of the world.”
“We have two very important questions to answer: how do we arrest climate change and how do we support and protect our farming and rural communities? Those are the real questions at stake in my mind today. A farmer who is rearing a few head of cattle in my constituency or a few sheep up in the Sperrins will quite understandably ask, "How are our actions responsible for climate change or to the detriment of the climate?" Urban dwellers have responsibilities as well in their consumption of goods and how they go about our daily life. <BR /> <BR />I too am out and about talking to farmers and concerned citizens, and I have not met a farmer yet who is not concerned about the climate and about climate change.”
“I have sat and listened with interest to the debate, although I suspect that when the general public listen to some of these debates, the acronyms and terminology can be quite confusing. All of a sudden, everyone has to turn into a climate scientist or become an expert in carbon, carbon leakage and all those terms that are floating around. Is it any wonder that those who are at the centre of the debate — often, the farming community — are scratching their heads, saying, "How can we deal with all this?" and "Why should this all be our responsibility?" There, they have a fair argument to make. <BR /> <BR />Among the terminology, the accusations back and forth and the scientific reports, the reality is that we have only one planet and we have two climate change Bills before us.”
“Will the joint First Minister give us an update on the provision for the funding of the scheme?”
“Mr Deputy Speaker, I did not even know that my name was down. I had no intention of speaking in the debate.”
“I refute your claim that Sinn Féin has appointed anyone to any body or public authority to hurt or further hurt victims. That claim has to be refuted. I think that, if the Member is being honest with himself, even he does not believe that claim. We are going through a political process that challenges us all. Victims have led on that, ex-prisoners have led on that, and those who were not involved in the conflict have led on that. If you are honest with yourself, you know that no appointment is made to further the hurt of any victim.”
“Whether you are unionist, nationalist, republican or an unbeliever, they will always do this, so let us collectively do something different.”
“<BR /> <BR />I was a bit surprised by Mr Frew's comments earlier when he said that this Tory party is no longer conservative. That might be a whole other debate, but that is what Tories do. The challenge for us is this: what can we do different? I believe that we can do different. Despite our differences, we can do different. <BR /> <BR />In my opinion, the future is a united Ireland where we all work together. As Mr O'Toole said, that is not going to happen this winter. It is not, but we need to start thinking now about what fiscal powers we use, what difference we make, how we work together and how we move towards that direction, because, let us be clear about this: the Tories will always do this. They will always do it, regardless of whether you are in Westminster with them or not.”
“<BR /> <BR />I will bring my remarks to a close. I just want to check my notes. The burden placed on workers, families and pensioners has been noted. The National Insurance increase and the fuel and heating increases that they face over the winter will be astronomical, and there is universal support in the Chamber that those things should not happen. <BR /> <BR />Other nations are doing it differently. Across Europe, they are doing it differently. Even at the very start of the austerity measures and the collapse of the world economy in 2008, the United States — a capitalist institution — invested. They spent trillions of dollars supporting their economy, but the Tories made a conscious decision to cut public services and public spending because that is what the Tories are about. That is at the core of the Tories.”
“What then for the citizens you serve? When it comes to abstentionism, we told the electorate what we were going to do. You did not tell the electorate what you are about to do. That is something for you to think about. <BR /> <BR />As to the change needed in our health service, I fully agree that our health service needs reformed. Strategic changes need to be made to it. I have said this in the Chamber before: I am a former Education Minister, and I led strategic change through the Department of Education. I closed and amalgamated schools when it was necessary, and I can assure you that no one welcomed that in their constituencies. There is the challenge for us as MLAs. "Not in my back yard" will not work when that comes. If we are up for that, there is another challenge for us moving forward.”
“This is the great danger: those who are most impoverished now will pay significant amounts towards what they believe to be their futures and their families' futures, only to find out that it is squandered and spent — or maybe not spent — or used elsewhere? That is a danger, and it is another reason why our Executive should ensure that we are the ones who scrutinise, raise those taxes and move forward, on behalf of the citizens we serve. <BR /> <BR />I will move on from this, for the moment, to the criticism of Sinn Féin not being in Westminster. Mrs Dodds said that we were absent. You are going to be absent in a few weeks. In a few, short weeks, according to your leader, you, the DUP Ministers and the DUP First Minister will be absent. What then? There will be no power in Belfast and no power in Westminster.”
“<BR /> <BR />Something that we have to be very cautious of, in wider society and among those who attend Westminster, is that Boris Johnson says that he is going to use the funds raised from this tax to fund social care. Apparently, that is going to go into legislation. However, Boris Johnson is a confirmed liar and he has shown that he is prepared to break promises: pledges in his manifesto, deals with his former colleagues in the DUP, deals with the European Union and anyone else. Why should we believe that the significant amount of money that they claim will be raised from taxing low-paid workers, families and pensioners will eventually end up going to social care?”
“If I were you, Mr Aiken, I would take that as a personal criticism. You are the Chair of the Finance Committee, and it is your job to make sure that we are spending our money properly. You and Mr Johnson may want to sit down, have a cup of coffee and talk that one through, because the role of our Committees is to scrutinise how we spend our budgets. I jest somewhat. <BR /> <BR />Of course every penny we spend must be accounted for and pay dividends for the public we serve. I do not dismiss that in any way. However, for us as an Assembly to move forward, we have to have fiscal powers to create that change, momentum or step change. It would not only bring change to society, it would also change politics. It would be a huge step forward for politics here.”
“In one moment. <BR /> <BR />Instead of standing in Westminster, being constantly defeated by the Tories and their allies, we could set the agenda here, in this Chamber. Would that not make a very interesting debate? It would be a new chapter in our society, in the devolution and evolution of our politics. I give way to Mr Aiken.”
“I welcome the fact that Conor Murphy has set up the Fiscal Commission to look at what fiscal powers we should start to seek to have devolved. Ultimately, in my opinion, they should all be brought here. That is going to present a huge challenge to the Assembly because, then, we will have to decide who is taxed, how much and when.”
“I do not think that anybody can realistically argue against that. I think that, when the motion is broken down, there is agreement across the Chamber. <BR /> <BR />What do we do next? Some voiced concern about or opposition to Sinn Féin's position of not attending Westminster. That may be a political jibe. It may be a genuine belief that, if we had been there, we could have prevented the Tories from introducing this tax. However, that is not the case. <BR /> <BR />That goes back to the comments made by my party colleague Caoimhe Archibald. We have to start thinking about a new beginning or how we, as a society, collectively, govern ourselves. The central part of governance is taxation and fiscal powers.”
“I have no objection to taxing big business, but the motion is quite clear; it:”
“Thank you, a Cheann Comhairle. I thank everybody who contributed to the debate. It has been a good debate. It is unsurprising that, in a political forum, there are differences of opinion and maybe wee jibes. I might get into a few wee jibes myself before the end of my contribution. I think that, overall, we have a united voice from the Chamber that the proposal from the Tory Government to fund social care by a 1·5% increase in National Insurance is wrong. That is a very clear message that can come out of the Chamber this evening. <BR /> <BR />We agree that those who can afford to pay should pay. There may be a difference of opinion about the level that somebody can afford and who they should be, but I think that there is general agreement on that. There may be a divergence of views on taxing big business.”
“I will happily bring the Minister around Upper Bann and show him the new developments and investments that are taking place as a result of the protocol. We told you that following the line of Brexit would damage relationships and potentially damage industry on this island. Minister, you did not answer the question. After you broke the Pledge of Office, how can I or anyone else take you as a man of your word?”
“I hope that the Economy Minister and the Executive support our universities and colleges in remaining open. I hope that everyone who has had the opportunity to take measures themselves, such as vaccination, social distancing and handwashing, will all do their part to ensure that our students have a proper and full education this year.”
“Not one, not two, but three DUP Ministers refused to provide all students with the £500 COVID disruption payment. Students who are studying full time in a further education college have not all received that payment. Part-time students have not been supported. Students from here who are studying in Britain and across the border have not been supported. Large sectors of our student population felt discriminated against and left behind as a result of that. If an opportunity arises for those students to be supported in the next financial year, I hope that they will be supported. <BR /> <BR />I will end on this point. Just as the best place for pupils is in schools, in a safe environment, the best place for our student population is on the campus. I hope that the lessons have been learned from last year.”
“I encourage everyone returning to university or college to have their vaccination. There is also the opportunity to use the pop-up vaccination clinics, and other resources are being made available. Hopefully, that will minimise disruption to that sector. <BR /> <BR />There is also the question of investment in ventilation and in support for the mental health and well-being of our student population. I raised that matter last year, and it has not been rectified. The mental health and well-being support for our students and staff in our universities and further education colleges has not been fully provided for. I hope that that will be in place this year for that sector. <BR /> <BR />One area of disappointment is the continued failure to fund the £500 COVID disruption payment for all students.”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak on an important issue: the return of further education college and university students and lecturers, professors etc to campus, which is very welcome. Last year, there was huge disruption to student and academic life for many. Those whose first or second year it was did not get the opportunity to experience university or college as others have done over many years. <BR /> <BR />The challenges faced by our schools estate are also faced by our further education colleges and universities. I suspect that, in the coming weeks, we will see those challenges manifest on campuses. It also has to be said that we are dealing with a different age range: we are dealing with the return of young adults and older adults. There is an opportunity for vaccinations.”
“Everyone has the right to protest, but protesting outside a health setting is unacceptable. No one protesting, shouting and roaring at women walking into a healthcare setting knows those women's stories. I welcome the Minister's commitment to examine all legislative pathways. Will her officials engage with the Member who is sponsoring the private Member's Bill if it is introduced later today?”
“A mother is the cornerstone of any family home, and Pat was a mother, grandmother and great-grandmother. I extend my deepest sympathies to the Hume family on the loss of Pat. <BR /> <BR />As has been said, many international tributes have been paid to her, quite rightly so. Many have stepped forward and recognised her role. The least that we can do now as a society is to make sure that we never return to the scenes of the past, that we take that extra step for courage when it is required and that we listen to the type of advice that Pat was giving back in those dark days. I offer my deepest sympathies to the SDLP and to the Hume family.”
“I am speaking on behalf of Sinn Féin at the request of our leasuachtarán, Michelle O'Neill, who is still recovering from COVID. On Michelle and the party's behalf, I offer our deepest condolences to the Hume family on Pat's passing. Pat played a central role in Irish politics since the civil rights movement. She did so alongside John, with John and, at times, leading John and giving him advice through those very difficult years. <BR /> <BR />Without doubt, she has, as has been said, shown the importance of her role to Irish society and to building and sustaining the peace process and giving this generation of political leaders an opportunity to make a real difference in people's lives. That is a huge testament to her life. At the end, however, the greatest loss is to the Hume family and to Pat and John's children.”
“In relation to testing and tracing, what specific measures were put in place for special needs schools? There are unique circumstances there. If the PHA does take over tracking and tracing, what measures will it put in place to ensure that the unique circumstances in special needs schools are taken into consideration?”
“That is a true statement, but what does it mean? When I was Education Minister, I was JR-ed by all sectors because we were entering a phase where there was a significant number of development proposals coming through, particularly on school closures. I was JR-ed, I would say, 10 times during my time as Minister. You have to put that into context. Ministers are JR-ed a lot. It does not necessarily mean that they are JR-ed by the integrated sector. I was trying to glean whether there was any legal evidence that the integrated sector was being discriminated against by the Department.”
“I do not recognise that it would take two or three years to bring forward a development proposal; it might take a year. However, any development proposal brought forward for an integrated school that has not been fairly dealt with by the Department is open to judicial review. I can think of one JR in my time where my decision was overturned and then, later, a court case qualified it. Have there been any other cases where the Department's decisions have been overturned by JR?”
“I am sure that the Member is aware that, until the early 1980s, in the Catholic sector, it was a case of "pay your own way" in many, many circumstances. It was not until the early 1980s that some equality was brought into the system in funding the Catholic sector. Therefore, the Member's wish about what should have happened in the past is pretty close to what the reality was.”
“The question in my head is whether this Bill is the way forward in that regard. The Committee's scrutiny will establish that, but do not try to tell the House that integrated education and everyone in it is purer or whiter than snow.”
“I think that there is very little that the Member and I would disagree on as regards what education should look like. However, there are integrated schools that, whatever way you look at them, are not integrated and where Irishness is an alien concept. I have been into integrated schools where the first thing that you are met with in the hallway is a picture of the Queen of England. Is that integration? I have been into integrated schools that are de facto controlled schools. They went down the integrated route because they saw that as a way of preserving the future of the school. <BR /> <BR />The danger in these debates is that people become very pious. When you become pious, you are liable to annoy somebody on the other side of the debate or somebody who is aligned to you. I fully adhere to the principle of integrated education.”
“We agree to the Bill proceeding through Second Stage so that essential improvements can be made to ensure that it is fit for purpose and does not disadvantage any section of our education system.”
“The reason that we have such a separated education system, dating back to the 1920s, is that the Catholic Church — and I am no defender of the Catholic hierarchy — took the strong view that, in order to keep Irish identity and culture alive in the partitioned state, it would have to have its own education system. After 100 years of partition, therefore, why would we say, "I will tell you what: we will forget about that. We will have an education system, under the Bill, that is neutral with a small 'n' — or, in my opinion, British — in its identity"? I do not object to a British identity, but I certainly want to see an Irish identity there. <BR /> <BR />The Integrated Education Bill requires significant changes to make it fit for purpose.”
“I want to see that report, and I want to see it in the context of inclusivity. That is my concern about the integrated education sector. It promotes inclusivity, but I know of only one integrated school that plays Gaelic games. There are very few that do. None promotes the Irish language. I will correct myself: I think that there is one. The identity in integrated schools is not neutral: in many of them, it is British. You can pay homage to the Crown but to no one else. <BR /> <BR />If the integrated sector is serious about respecting all identities, it will have to get its head around that.”
“That is quite a wide scope for a Bill. In fairness, when the public are asked, "Do you support integrated education?", the answer is this: why would you not? I support the principle of integrated education, but when someone puts legislation in front of me, I want to know exactly what each provision of that legislation will do. I ask myself, "Is the legislation necessary and what are its outcomes?". As I have said a number of times, this legislation has mission creep written all over it. <BR /> <BR />Ms Armstrong said that she is concerned that the NDNA commitment may take too long to deliver. Given the experience of politics here, that is a fair comment. It is still an NDNA commitment, however. In the agreement, there is a commitment to have an independent review, including of whether there should be a single education system.”
“I have no difficulty with biennial reporting. <BR /> <BR />Clause 10 sets out a wide range of regulations, some of which have far-reaching implications for public bodies. Mr Storey mentioned that as well. 10(2)(m) states:”
“That is part of a strategy that the Department of Education has to develop. That goes back to my previous point that that is NICIE's job. NICIE should be doing that. Again, there is already a body set up to:”
“Are they not already included? I ask that as a genuine question. Clause 8(2)(e)(i) states:”
“In fairness, Ms Armstrong has clarified what she means by "New schools", which is that it is not new builds at existing schools but rather brand-new schools. I again go back to my comment that that gives quite a significant advantage to the integrated sector. <BR /> <BR />I will move on to clause 8. There is quite a significant number of items in that clause. I have a question. Clause 8(2)(c) states:”
“Does the Bill give further advantage to the integrated sector over other sectors? I think that it does. I support the current status of encouraging and facilitating that sector, and I am not arguing against giving advantage to it, but the Bill goes too far. It sets the integrated sector on a different plateau from other sectors, and that may be detrimental to those sectors. Indeed, reading through the Bill, Mr Storey pointed out a few things, although I do not wish to agree with Mr Storey much more throughout the debate. <BR /> <BR />I will move on to clause 5: "Meaning of promotion". That currently falls into the role of NICIE. What is the purpose of having that clause? The "General duty" on other education bodies to develop, adopt and implement or revise strategies to take integrated education into account is a step too far.”
“<BR /> <BR />Ms Armstrong pointed out that, from the figures that she has, a significant number of pupils are turned away, particularly from post-primary integrated education. There is a way to correct that, which is the development proposal process, whereby, if a school is oversubscribed on a regular basis, it can bring forward proposals to increase its intake. There is the potential to do that and, when the Minister of Education examines such a development proposal, they will have a statutory duty to ensure that their duty to encourage and facilitate was taken into account. If they do not do that, they could be judicially reviewed — successfully, in my humble opinion — on that matter. That is another way for the integrated sector to move forward and develop, which begs the question: why is there a necessity for the Bill?”
“Religion should be studied as a subject that gives you a view of the world: of history, geography and a whole lot of one thing and another. I accept that people have deeply held views about it, but I think that that definition has to be looked at. <BR /> <BR />I will move on through the Bill. During Ms Armstrong's opening remarks, she said that it is not easy for a new integrated school to be opened. I agree with her to a degree, but let us look at the facts. If my memory serves me correctly, you need 15 pupils to open either an integrated or Irish-medium primary school in an urban area. In a rural area, you need 12 pupils. Neither the controlled nor the maintained sector can do that. In that respect, again, the Department of Education has facilitated the growth of integrated education.”
“You will note that I did not include religion in the list of aspects that I was looking for when choosing a school for my children. Religion plays an important part in some people's lives and choices. I believe that religion should be separate from education. However, I do not believe that this Bill, or the current model of integrated education, delivers religion separately from education. As has been said by many Members, the current integrated movement is a Christian-based model. If you want to start an argument, put two Christians in a room. Straight away, you will get an argument over how to worship the same God. I do not accept that the model presented today will give a non-Christian ethos to our education system. Christianity is going to be promoted, whatever form that is in. I believe that education and religion should be separate.”
“Well, then why is it in the Bill? Why is such a definition in the Bill? As a parent, when I looked for a school for my children, I looked for a school that, one, was a good school, and, two, would teach them through the medium of Irish, as was my wish. I wanted my children to go to a school where they would be able to learn about their culture, their history and their community, a school that their neighbours go to and where they could make friends. I, and many other parents, are of the view that their children's school does exactly what it says in clause 1(2).”
“Are we seriously suggesting that those schools that do not have "Integrated" above the door do not do that? Are we seriously saying that?”
“The Member has put that on the record. I simply do not know whether that is the case. <BR /> <BR />What I do know is that the reason that I did not pursue that in my time as Minister was that I saw it as my duty to facilitate and encourage. Where schools were working towards integration, I was happy to facilitate and encourage that. <BR /> <BR />I will start my scrutiny of the Bill by saying that, while I know that clause 1 is a reference to other documentation, I find it offensive as a parent, a politician, a community leader and as someone who has gone through the Catholic sector. My parents chose a school for me not to keep me away from anybody. I chose my children's school not to keep them away from anybody. If I believed for one second that my children's school did not fulfil these criteria, I would whisk them out of it immediately.”
“While it is in my head, it is also worth noting that many of our integrated schools do not meet the criterion of a 70:30 mix, as set down. In fact, if the Department of Education were to implement that policy thoroughly, a number of our integrated schools would be in serious difficulties.”
“When I read through the Bill, the question that constantly comes into my mind is this: why has NICIE not been doing that, and why has NICIE not been held to account for not doing that? The budget given to NICIE by the Department of Education is around £700,000 per year; I am willing to be corrected on that figure. That money is to ensure that NICIE encourages, facilitates and promotes integrated education, though there is no statutory duty on the Department to do that, and engages with communities and schools that wish to transform, or have transformed, to integrated status.”