John O'Dowd
Upper Bann · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“As I set out in response to the previous question, we have in place the vacant property rate relief scheme and the small business rate relief scheme, which are very successful. I set aside £10 million in the draft Budget for small business rate relief to be invested.”
“I am particularly keen to hear from those impacted by vacant commercial units and especially about how any phased increase can be implemented in a sustainable way that is fair, proportionate and sustainable within the tax system.”
“I outlined my intent to take that approach in my statement on 18 November, alongside the fact that reform of rating policy should support growth, make better use of property and ensure that the system is fair, proportionate and aligned with wider economic objectives.”
“The accelerator will operate alongside our highly successful Back in Business scheme, which has helped to bring over 100 vacant high street properties back into use since May 2024. Those issues have been the subject of considerable interest and comment in the Assembly, and it is right that we grasp the nettle now.”
“There are no circumstances in which a hard border would be good for the people of Ireland; it would not be good for anyone. Those who suggest that are being naive at best and dangerous at worst, in the sense of not understanding this society. <BR /> <BR />Rural communities along the border are one and the same.”
“This announcement represents the next step in that. That said, I also put on record my intention to strengthen support for small businesses. In that vein, £10 million has been set aside in the draft Budget to broaden the impact of the small business rate relief scheme in order to increase the number of businesses that can benefit from it.…”
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“The digital inclusion unit has the aims of getting citizens online, promoting access to high-level digital skills and supporting the digital economy. It achieves that by coordinating activities and projects, creating partnerships, including with Ofcom and, as I said, libraries, and supporting communities, other Departments and the other devolved Administrations. The unit also works in partnership with the public, private and voluntary and community sectors to deliver joined-up working through the digital assets steering group.”
“Activity and initiatives are cross-departmental to ensure that we use technology to grow the economy, reform our public services and make life better for every citizen.”
“The digital inclusion team's Go ON NI programme provides free digital training sessions in libraries, community centres and hubs. Those digital skills sessions introduce digital technology to people who are not familiar with going online and support people who want to improve their online skills. In the last financial year, the programme helped nearly 3,576 people with digital training. In addition, the digital inclusion team works closely with Business in the Community (BITC) and, last month, hosted an online schools' event for Safer Internet Day, for which 3,758 pupils from 51 schools registered. <BR /> <BR />My Department is committed to maximising the number of citizens able to use online channels, including those to access public services and to access low-cost, convenient computing and digital skills training.”
“I am firmly of the view that there are enough rockets, missiles, bombs and guns in the world — we do not need any more. We need more teachers, more nurses, more healthcare workers, more special needs assistants, more domiciliary care workers and more front-line staff in a range of areas. There are enough guns and bombs out there. You have only to look at your television to know that there are enough guns and bombs out there. <BR /> <BR />We need leadership on the world stage that will bring peace to the planet, in particular the poorer nations, because usually what happens is that rich nations make and sell the bombs and then drop them on poorer nations. Let us give everybody a chance and move on from the disastrous policy that is being processed and proceeded with at this time.”
“It is expected that phase 2 of the spending review will be announced in June. While it is a very welcome development, in the sense that it will enable me to deliver a three-year Budget to the Executive for resource and a four-year Budget for capital, we will be facing a significantly challenging three years as a result of the fiscal and economic policies that are being adopted by the current Administration at Westminster. However, it will allow Departments to plan ahead. Having that three-year window will be a game changer for the delivery of public services.”
“When you see the cuts and the scale of what is being proposed, it is very challenging to understand how we can continue to mitigate them in the time ahead.”
“I have not had a meeting with the Minister for Communities in relation to the current round of proposed cuts to welfare by Westminster. In fairness to the Communities Minister, he is awaiting further detail from Whitehall Departments on how exactly the cuts will be implemented, over what timescales they will be implemented and what impact they will have on annually managed expenditure (AME) etc. <BR /> <BR />The Member also asked about the anti-poverty strategy. There may have been correspondence between me and the Communities Minister, but I am not aware of any formal meeting during my time in post in that regard. The Executive have, rightly, invested a significant amount of money over a number of years in mitigating the worst excesses of Tory austerity. We are now dealing with Labour austerity.”
“Those Barnett consequentials are unhypothecated, which means that they are available to use in line with the Executive's priorities and needs. The Chancellor also announced the creation of a £3·25 billion transformation fund to support the reform of public services in England and Wales. The Barnett consequentials for allocations from that fund in 2025-26 will be notified in the Whitehall Main Estimates in June. Consequentials in further years are likely to be provided in the spending review in June.”
“I have made it clear to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury that we need investment in front-line services that support families, workers and communities. What we needed to see was funding for education, health and housing. It is disappointing that, instead of that, the Chancellor's spring statement provided the continuation of austerity, neglecting investment in public services and yielding benefit cuts that target some of those who need the most support. <BR /> <BR />On the impact on Executive finances, the spring statement provided the Executive with additional Barnett consequentials of £14 million in 2025-26. Of that, £12·5 million is for resource departmental expenditure limit (DEL) and £1·6 million is for capital DEL. Whilst welcome, those additional funds will not meet the many significant pressures on our budgets.”
“With your permission, Mr Speaker, I will answer questions 4, 5 and 9 together. I ask for an extra minute, if that is appropriate.”
“I do agree. As I said to Mr Durkan, arm's-length bodies are responsible for spending huge amounts of public funds. They also have a responsibility to live within budget, as do their chief executives or accounting officers. Their accounting officers have a responsibility to live within budget, so when an accounting officer steps forward and indicates or confirms that they cannot live within budget, the board of that arm's-length body should be very concerned in carrying out due diligence. Certainly, the Minister of the sponsoring Department should be very concerned in carrying out due diligence in that regard. In this case, the Minister has acted appropriately.”
“If other Departments feel that they should follow suit, I encourage them to do so.”
“I will answer those in reverse order. There is a role for the Assembly in monitoring arm's-length bodies, and there is definitely a role for the Committees. It should not be the case that arm's-length bodies come into Committees and make statements and, if the statement suits the political agenda of members of the Committee, they nod in agreement and, if it does not, they shake their head in disagreement. Arm's-length bodies control and spend huge amounts of public funds. The work of Committees is very good and, I have to say, is not given enough credit. The Committees are a great way of holding those arm's-length bodies to account. <BR /> <BR />I am not aware of the use of forensic accountants by any other Department. It is a very innovative approach by the Infrastructure Minister, and, as I said, it is a reasonable measure.”
“I have had no specific engagement with the Minister for Infrastructure regarding a potential overspend by NI Water. My officials monitor each Department's spend against budget on an ongoing basis through the regular forecast out-turn processes. It is for each individual Minister to manage their budget, including that of any arm's-length body, in line with the allocation that was agreed by the Executive. I am aware of the Infrastructure Minister's statement regarding NI Water's budget position and her intention to appoint forensic accountants to investigate how NI Water has ended up in that position. That appears to be a very sensible measure, in my opinion. My officials will continue to engage with DFI officials on NI Water's position and its impact on the DFI budget, and they will remain in close contact as that investigation proceeds.”
“Each procurement exercise will have its own contract. Departments should monitor those and satisfy themselves from the outset that the procurement process is being followed properly and that, as I said to the previous questioner, value for money is being achieved. The Department of Finance sets out policy on those matters. We can and will offer support to Departments when it is asked for, but we in the Department of Finance do not have an interventionist role on those matters. As I said, I am more than happy, where resources allow me, for my officials to support other Departments if and when questions arise, where queries arise on those matters or where they want advice on best practice.”
“That is a matter for the Department of Health, the Health Minister and, indeed, the Health Committee to assess and interrogate. It is important that public funds are used wisely and are accounted for. It is also important that we are getting maximum value for money and that small- and medium-sized enterprises are not ruled out of or have barriers placed in their way to accessing considerable amounts of public funding, which can make a huge difference to a small business and, therefore, to our local economy. On the detail of the Member's question, I encourage her to engage with the Department of Health.”
“I am committed to ensuring that our procurement practices are simplified and easily accessible for local businesses, particularly as 85% of businesses here have between one and nine employees, and 97% have fewer than 50 employees. The simplification of the procurement processes and practices for contracts that are below £50,000, or £65,000 for utilities, will mean that businesses will not be required to use formal tendering to provide quotations. That will make it easier for the public sector to do business and, more importantly, for businesses to bid, negotiate and work in partnership with the public sector.”
“I encourage ministerial colleagues to ensure that their Departments maximise the flexibilities that the new limits create and ensure that that flexibility is replicated in their arm's-length bodies, such as schools. In addition to flexibility in procurement practices, my Department is in the process of raising the delegated limits at which Departments are required to seek approval from the Department of Finance's Supply division. Again, I encourage Ministers to review the practice in their Department to ensure that delegated limits for their arm's-length bodies are proportionate and focused on delivery.”
“At the beginning of March, the Executive approved an increase in procurement control limits to reflect inflation over the past five years and to introduce greater flexibilities for public bodies. The new limits were effective immediately. The changes allow public bodies to target spending below £50,000, or £65,000 for utilities, to microbusinesses and the voluntary, community and social enterprise sector. For those contracts, public bodies can seek price checks or quotations by email. The simplification means that businesses will not be required to use the eTendersNI system, which can be seen as a barrier by those groups. <BR /> <BR />The flexibility will also ensure local accountability and allow spending decisions to be made locally. Many reports point to a risk-averse culture across the public sector.”
“Since the break-in and further incidents of attempted unauthorised access, all locks on the entry and exit doors to Dundonald House have been changed, chains and padlocks have been put in place where access is believed to have been gained, access to the roof has been closed off and 24-hour on-site security has been put in place inside the building. The Department of Finance is also arranging for wire mesh to be installed internally to cover up the windows on the lower floors of the building to help to prevent further unauthorised entry, and it has closed the pedestrian access point adjacent to Dundonald House. The need for ongoing or further security measures at or around the building will be kept under review by my Department.”
“The Member is correct, and it is on the record: Dundonald House was accessed in recent times. However, the room containing Prison Service files was not accessed, and, even if it had been, there would have been no access to the storage facilities in which the files were held. I asked whether the room was entered and whether cabinets were opened, and the answer to both of those questions was no. <BR /> <BR />I understand that the files were transported securely, in agreement with the Prison Service, to a new location.”
“With the creation of the centralised NICS HR function in 2017, the data controller for all Civil Service staff files moved to the Department of Finance. Given the security considerations for prison-grade staff, it was agreed that all live and legacy hard copies would remain in NI Prison Service headquarters.”
“That change will remedy our legislation in order to ensure that there is equality in the registration process. <BR /> <BR />As I outlined, the Bill will impact on a large number of the people whom we are here to represent, often at some of the most difficult and challenging times of their life. It contains provisions that make permanent the steps that we have taken to modernise the registration services. It introduces important remedies to disparities in our birth and stillbirth processes. It provides the statutory footing that is required for a new baby loss certificate scheme. I urge Members to support the Bill, and I commend it to the Assembly.”
“Thirdly, the Bill will rectify differences in the registration process for some couples. Under current law, different birth and stillbirth registration options exist for same-sex and heterosexual couples who are neither married nor in a civil partnership. Same-sex female couples that are in that position cannot jointly register a birth or stillbirth in the same way as heterosexual couples. Some second female parents do not have the same birth and stillbirth registration options as the father in heterosexual couples. The Bill will fix those disparities, ensuring that unmarried, non-civil-partnered couples have the same choices about how to register a birth or stillbirth, regardless of whether they are a same-sex or a heterosexual couple.”
“To that end, we will hold a public consultation on the new scheme. That consultation will help to determine the details of the scheme, including consideration of who can apply for a baby loss certificate, the time period that it will cover and the content of the certificate. Once the consultation is complete, secondary legislation will be brought forward to implement the scheme. I am grateful to the Minister of Health, whose officials have worked with those in my Department to bring forward the legislation. I look forward to working with Minister Nesbitt to specify the detail of the scheme that will follow. If those matters progress smoothly, I anticipate that the scheme will be operational by the end of the year.”
“Where such certificates have been introduced, they have been widely welcomed. That support has been reflected in the large number of questions that my Department has received about the proposed scheme and in the supportive and often personal letters that have been received on the matter. I am grateful to all those who have been in touch and have, often bravely, talked about their experiences. <BR /> <BR />It is important to me that families, charities and third-sector organisations have the opportunity to shape the certificate scheme so that it meets their needs and expectations.”
“Under existing law, the registration service can recognise only losses during pregnancy that occur after 24 weeks: losses after that point are treated as stillbirths. However, the Bill will change that and make provision to recognise losses that occur earlier in pregnancy. <BR /> <BR />A new baby loss certificate scheme will offer the opportunity for those who have experienced a baby loss prior to 24 weeks to have their loss formally recognised. While no certificate can undo their pain and grief, the new scheme will help to support families at a very difficult time and provide a voluntary way of acknowledging and recognising their loss. It will confirm that their baby existed and can be used to start a conversation with siblings or other family members. Certificates can help them to start to navigate the grieving process.”
“<BR /> <BR />Secondly, the Bill will provide a statutory footing for a baby loss certificate scheme. As Members on all sides will sadly be able to testify, the impact and trauma of losses early in pregnancy are significant. Estimates of how many pregnancies end during the first 24 weeks vary. The charities Sands and Tommy's suggest that there may have been around 4,000 such losses here in 2021, but, because of a lack of reporting, that could underestimate the true figure. For those families, the loss of a baby early in pregnancy is a tragedy. The very real hurt that they feel is often borne in solitary silence, with little formal recognition and little support as they navigate their grief.”
“The provisions have enabled our registration service to be more modern, more efficient and more effective, and they have enabled us to provide an empathetic service to people at a difficult and often emotionally challenging time around the death of a loved one or following the terrible circumstances of a stillbirth. It is right that we should put no new burden on grieving families and should run our public services in a way that supports them and makes their lives easier. The Bill will therefore put those temporary arrangements on a solid statutory footing; provide permanent powers that sustain remote registration and electronic transfers of documents; and end the use of the Coronavirus Act 2020 powers in the context of the registration service, which Members on all sides are, I know, keen to see.”
“Those temporary powers have enabled those registrations to take place remotely and provided for the electronic transfer of documents between parties. Rather than coming into a council office, grieving members of the public can make arrangements to register a death or a stillbirth from their home. They can be assured that the key documents that enable a timely burial will pass electronically between doctors, officials and undertakers. Over the last five years, that has become the normal way in which the vast majority of such registrations take place.”
“The Bill will, with Members' approval, afford families who suffer losses early in pregnancy the same formal recognition as those who experience the death of a loved one. It will remedy disparities in birth and stillbirth registration processes for some same-sex couples. It also represents the modernisation of the registration service. It is a Bill that will impact on a great number of people whom we are here to represent, and I hope that it will gain the support of MLAs. <BR /> <BR />I will now consider the three areas of the Bill's focus in turn. First, the Bill will make permanent the temporary provisions of the Coronavirus Act 2020 that relate to the registration of deaths and stillbirths.”
“I welcome the opportunity to open the debate on this incredibly important legislation. The Bill is an important step forward for our registration services. <BR /> <BR />Few things touch the lives of everyone who lives here in the way that the registration of births and deaths does. Many families have had the positive experience of registering the birth of their child, providing formal recognition of the joyful news of the arrival. Sadly, other families have had the very different experience of registering the death of a loved one or a stillbirth. Regardless of our background and whether we are young or old, births and deaths are part of our shared lived experience, and how we record them matters. As legislators, our job is to make positive change.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-Leas-Cheann Comhairle.”
“We can all be very thankful that policing is in a different place from where it was in 2010 and that our society is a much more settled place than it was then. That needs to be reflected when comparing policing budgets over that period. As I said to some of your colleagues, there is a business case with the Department. My officials are analysing that, as they would any business case. When it is appropriate to do so, it will be brought to my attention. I will continue to engage with the Justice Minister at that stage on how we move financing for policing forward. I am sure that, if someone were looking for an extra £200 million of very limited public resources, the Member would be the first to tell me that he expected proper process to be followed. Proper process will be followed.”
“I have had some engagement with the Health Minister, but the £50 million extra is on the proviso that the Minister bring forward a plan for how it will be invested. In the Health Minister's budget, £165 million is ring-fenced, and the £50 million of additional funding that I am bringing forward for him is on the proviso that he brings forward a plan for how it will be invested to tackle waiting lists. I am not challenging the Health Minister in that regard, because, in fairness to him, he is on the same page.”
“If I were to go through every financial transaction and movement that occurs in the 2025-26 Budget, we would be here until midnight. I have given Members the headlines, the movements of finances and, attached to the statement, tables of all the financial transactions under the headlines. <BR /> <BR />Look, it is understandable and right that the Budget is open to question. I have no difficulty with that; in fact, I fully support it, because we end up with a better, more transparent system. However, I would like to compare it with something. I would like to compare it with the Opposition's Budget. Thus far, I am unable to do so, because you have not produced one.”
“I do not have to impress that point on the Infrastructure Minister. The Member will be aware, however, that that funding will be allocated to NI Water, which has a chief executive and a board who are ultimately responsible for how the money is spent.”
“That is the challenge for all Executive Ministers, but it is a challenge that we have to take on. We cannot simply throw our hands in the air and say, "It can't be done". We have a duty to do better.”
“It is vital, whether you are a Minister, an MLA, a chief executive or a public servant, to be careful about the language that you use and that you do not unnecessarily raise anxiety and concern among the general public, patients and, particularly, the health service workforce. We all must act responsibly in these matters. Therefore, I caution everyone who will be on the airwaves or seeks to be on the airwaves to be extremely cautious with the language that they use. <BR /> <BR />The sentence in the Health Minister's letter that stands out to me — I commend him for it — is this:”
“As I understand it, it is the continuation of a current scheme, and it fulfils projects that would not go ahead without the money. It is a welcome investment in the economy along with the skills investment.”
“The Executive and, indeed, the Assembly have to be commended. From a standing-still point last year, we are now spending £50 million on early years and childcare, and we have pledged an additional £5 million in June monitoring. That is £55 million from the standstill point this time last year. <BR /> <BR />Thousands of families are benefiting from the Executive's decisive action in that regard. There is more work to be done. As I said, I look forward to seeing the Opposition's alternative Budget. I will study it closely to see their suggestions. I am always keen to engage on that basis. However, it is £55 million compared with zero.”
“The five-year business plan presented to my Department obviously covers five years, and this would have been the first year. As far as I am aware, the amount of additional expenditure in the first year was limited and would not have had a significant impact on policing numbers or plans. As I said, there is a process to go through. I am sure that the Member will want to ensure and will want me to ensure that any bids for quite significant additional funding will be spent appropriately and will be fully required. We cannot run our public finances according to who gets the most dramatic headline on whatever day of the week it is. We have to run our public services on the basis of the Programme for Government's priorities and by ensuring that the limited public resources that we have are best utilised.”
“Contrary to popular belief, a business case is not sitting on my desk. A business case is in the Department of Finance, where it is being appropriately scrutinised by the relevant officials, who are working with the Department of Justice and will, at the appropriate time, provide me with a report. I await the outcome of that scrutiny of the business case. When it comes to me, I will continue to engage with the Minister of Justice on supporting policing and on ensuring that investment in policing is sufficient, is delivering the safer communities that all our citizens want and is being delivered in a front-line services way. There is a process to follow — it will not be sped up by googling or doing anything else — and I will follow it.”
“I do not have responsibility for micromanaging Departments, although I obviously have an overview of and an interest in how funding is delivered in them. We need to take a long, hard look at bureaucracy in how we deliver public services and at the number of public bodies and quangos that deliver those services. It is clear that we will continue to have significantly constrained Budgets, so every penny counts. If delivery of public services is overly bureaucratic, I therefore encourage Ministers to remove the bureaucracy and put the savings made into front-line services.”
“I have given Members the headlines about the additional funding that has been allocated to Departments as a result of Barnett consequentials and expected Barnett consequentials. The funding and the projects that were identified in the draft Budget stand. Departments' responsibility to outline their projects also stands. I have allocated the funds to Departments, and we have ring-fenced, on this occasion, significant amounts of funding. How Departments now spend their allocated funding is up to them.”
“My understanding is that it is from the A1. More details on the easement will be made available to the Member. How the Committee engages with the Department is a matter for the Committee and the Department. I have no concerns about the identified easement, however. The Department has a proven record of investing its limited resources — all Departments' resources are limited — in front-line services.”
“Again, that is a strategic investment by the Executive: we have almost doubled the investment in skills. In the draft Budget, it was £7 million. The Executive have taken a decision to increase investment in skills to £15 million. That is a huge boost for upskilling the current workforce, for bringing new workers into the workforce and for the economy.”
“We took a conscious decision to allocate the funding in this way at this time. We cannot include it as part of the Budget spending, because we have yet to receive the letter from the Secretary of State confirming it — we are dealing with a number of technicalities here — but, in reality, £50 million is set aside for tackling health waiting lists. It is only right and proper that we inform the Health Minister that it is available now to allow him to plan for that spend from June. We have taken the appropriate action.”
“No. A lot of work has already been undertaken, and Professor Holtham will have access to that research and data. I am confident that his report will be available in sufficient time for us to submit it to the Treasury ahead of the spending review. The case was originally made by the Fiscal Council. We continue to make that case, and Professor Holtham's work will add to it.”
“The Executive continue to recognise the challenges that are faced on Lough Neagh. We also recognise that it will take considerable investment and time to correct the mistakes of the past. In the Budget, we have ring-fenced £5 million for the AERA Minister to engage with sectors and continue to take on the challenge of pollution in Lough Neagh, as is only right and proper.”