John O'Dowd
Upper Bann · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“As I set out in response to the previous question, we have in place the vacant property rate relief scheme and the small business rate relief scheme, which are very successful. I set aside £10 million in the draft Budget for small business rate relief to be invested.”
“I am particularly keen to hear from those impacted by vacant commercial units and especially about how any phased increase can be implemented in a sustainable way that is fair, proportionate and sustainable within the tax system.”
“I outlined my intent to take that approach in my statement on 18 November, alongside the fact that reform of rating policy should support growth, make better use of property and ensure that the system is fair, proportionate and aligned with wider economic objectives.”
“The accelerator will operate alongside our highly successful Back in Business scheme, which has helped to bring over 100 vacant high street properties back into use since May 2024. Those issues have been the subject of considerable interest and comment in the Assembly, and it is right that we grasp the nettle now.”
“There are no circumstances in which a hard border would be good for the people of Ireland; it would not be good for anyone. Those who suggest that are being naive at best and dangerous at worst, in the sense of not understanding this society. <BR /> <BR />Rural communities along the border are one and the same.”
“This announcement represents the next step in that. That said, I also put on record my intention to strengthen support for small businesses. In that vein, £10 million has been set aside in the draft Budget to broaden the impact of the small business rate relief scheme in order to increase the number of businesses that can benefit from it.…”
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“There are certainly millions of them across the water who are opposed to Brexit and opposed to what is happening at this stage. There are many, many people in our broader constituencies who have serious concerns about losing their European identity and about being pulled out of the European Union against their will. So it is not about Brit-bashing; it is about defending our rights as the collective of citizens that makes up this part of the island and, indeed, the island of Ireland. <BR /> <BR />It is complicated because of the relationships North/South and east-west. I do not want a border up the Irish Sea. I do not want one. I do not think that it would be good for relationships or for business, and I do not think that it would have any benefit for people on either of these islands.”
“I was scanning the internet as some Members spoke to try to find out where Lord Frost got his mandate, but I cannot find that information. Lord Frost was appointed by Boris Johnson. He was picked out of the retired realms of the Civil Service and brought in to negotiate our future. That is undemocratic. There is nobody there of a democratic nature protecting us. That is why it is so important that we, as elected representatives, debate, discuss and, yes, vote on these things. <BR /> <BR />Some from the unionist Benches have complained that we are doing this as a bit of Brit-bashing. It is not the intention to Brit-bash. I suspect that there are — I use this term advisedly — Brits in the Chamber who voted to remain in the European Union and who are opposed to Brexit.”
“We are all very familiar with how negotiations work in this part of the world. The negotiations are now heading towards a crucial stage. Either there will be an agreement or there will not. Often, when negotiations are taking place, locally, people ask me, "Well, John, what's happening? What are they talking about?", and I say, "Well, there's one thing we can be sure of: they're not talking about the weather. They're in there going through it line by line and are deciding our futures". <BR /> <BR />Mr Stalford has a particular style when making his contributions, which I often enjoy, but I think that he was a bit over the top this evening. He said that the EU is undemocratic and that unelected people are deciding our future.”
“Understandably, Members have asked why we are debating this again, but it is probably the most fundamental constitutional change in the history of Ireland since partition 100 years ago. That does not necessarily apply to the current negotiations on the free trade agreement. These negotiations, because the British Government acted in bad faith and intend to break international law, now involve the protocol. I note that Mr Givan said that he supports the content of the Bill, which, as has been stated, will break international law. I do not think that it is surprising that the Assembly, the local democratic institution and the institution of the Good Friday Agreement, is debating such an important matter on several occasions, given that it is of such significance for our present and our future.”
“I am slightly confused by the Member's position and Mr Girvan's position. Mr Girvan is a devolutionist, but, from listening to the Member, it appears that he is not a devolutionist.”
“In answer to a previous question, the Minister said that he trusts the current Ministers who are involved in the negotiations. What gives him grounds to trust the officials and Ministers involved in the negotiations around US imports or anything else?”
“I will follow on from Mr Nesbitt's question about the elusive savings that were associated with Brexit. It is now clear that there will be a public administration cost to deal with Brexit. How will the Minister's Department deal with the additional cost associated with Brexit?”
“We will suffer the most. Therefore, it is urgent that we all send out this clear message: honour your agreements.”
“I am not giving way, because I have only a minute left. <BR /> <BR />It leaves you open to criticism and open to suspicion. That leads me on to this point: in the absence of a trade agreement, the part of these islands that will suffer most is here.”
“The Member brings me on to my next point. You have a sovereign Parliament whose Government negotiate and endorse an international agreement. You cannot break that agreement. You can have a new negotiation. Your negotiators can negotiate with other countries and bring back a restructured agreement, but you cannot unilaterally break an international agreement.”
“They demonised the woman who ensured that Parliament had a say in the Brexit negotiations and that Parliament was the body that voted on the withdrawal agreement that it is about to break. You cannot have it both ways, folks. You cannot stand here and tell me, an Irish Republican, that Parliament is supreme and then ride on the coat-tails of the people who so harshly criticised Gina Miller for ensuring that your Parliament had a say.”
“They have broken agreements with the DUP and are going to break international agreements, so what is to say that they will not break future agreements with you? Whatever assurances Boris, or whoever, has given to the DUP and others, what is to say that they will not be broken? That brings me back to the point that we are better at governing ourselves than allowing others to do it to us. <BR /> <BR />Mr Allister, I will not get into a legal argument with a barrister; I have more sense. However, does anybody remember Gina Miller? Gina Miller brought to the Supreme Court a case that argued the point that Parliament was supreme and that its will had to be listened to. The very people who are arguing that Parliament's will is supreme are the very people who demonised Gina Miller.”
“We show huge potential for our people, but, as long as the DUP and others are tied to the right-wing tail of the Tory Party, it will always cause difficulties for this society. <BR /> <BR />Why do we not govern better for ourselves? Why do we not collectively say, "The will of the people here is this: we should not have Brexit. It is bad for business, bad for farming, bad for our community and bad for investment", and now we have a Government who have turned around once again and are going to break an international agreement — I will come to Mr Allister in a minute — to negotiate with the EU.”
“<BR /> <BR />I will be honest with you: when a British Prime Minister or Minister stands at the Dispatch Box in Westminster and makes a statement, I have real difficulty in believing anything that they tell me because experience has taught me that. That does not mean that there have not been admirable Westminster MPs, Ministers and even Prime Ministers, who stretched themselves for peace in Ireland. I respect them for various parts of that, but we have never been served well from the Dispatch Box in Westminster. That is why we have a local Assembly and come together here to work things out among ourselves. <BR /> <BR />I recall, when Ian Paisley senior proposed that he and Martin evict the NIO from Stormont Castle, he said, "Martin, you and I can run this place better than anybody". At times, we show the potential for that.”
“I have been a member of Sinn Féin since I was 18, and I do not take instructions from anywhere other than the ard-chomhairle of Sinn Féin. That is another distraction from Mr Storey. <BR /> <BR />The reality is that, in mid-2016, the DUP did not have a position on Brexit until it was told by its MPs in Westminster what it needed to do. Since then, party members have become avid Brexiteers despite what the British Government have done. Mr Aiken said that we are not allowed to Brit-bash. I am not really a Brit-basher, to be honest with you, but Mr Aiken then went on to bash United States politicians, European politicians and Irish politicians. Let us not bash anybody. Let us speak about what has happened, what is happening and what our experiences are.”
“I will let you in; do not worry about it. The DUP did not have a position on Brexit, and then it adopted, "We will support Brexit". It moved forward and supported Brexit — I will let you in in a moment — and it has brought us to this position. What has it delivered? A potential border down the Irish Sea, economic damage and competition that farmers and the business sector have never seen before. <BR /> <BR />When the DUP sat in its party room on the third floor, listening to either the pleas or the orders from its MPs to support Brexit, it made a huge mistake. There is always an opportunity to correct that mistake. I will let Mr Storey in, and then I will move on.”
“There were more meetings in the DUP meeting rooms on the third floor than there were in the Chamber as orders came from Westminster on what position the DUP should adopt. DUP MPs in Westminster, who had fallen under the influence of much older, much stranger men in the European Research Group, were sending back word that they needed to support Brexit. In 2016, as the debate was moving forward, the DUP did not even have a position on Brexit.”
“Let us move on. I will go back not to 1916 but to 2016, because this point is constantly raised in the Chamber: Sinn Féin did not support the EU in 1970 or the EEC in 1970. It reminds me of some debates among the left, "You didn't do this. You weren't on the barricades when we were on the barricades. Where were you?". Party politics change or positions evolve. Party debates take place. Changes happen on a global and local scale, and parties move with those changes. <BR /> <BR />I want to reference 2016. I was on the Executive in 2016, and then I was out. I also sat in the Chamber in 2016, and, as we moved towards the debate on Brexit, the DUP Benches were quite often empty, because a major debate was going on in the DUP as to what position it would take on Brexit.”
“I am not here to question what your constituents want or do not want. You delivered the border down the Irish Sea; I did not. Gentlemen and women on that side of the Chamber delivered the border down the Irish Sea; I did not. That is why I am pointing out the fact that you are trying to distract the debate away from where we are.”
“The reality is that many within the unionist community have serious concerns about Brexit and where the DUP and the Ulster Unionist Party that followed the DUP have brought them. We see that in the position that the Ulster Farmers' Union has taken. It is expressing serious concerns. We also see it in the business sector, which is expressing serious concerns about where Brexit has led to, and I am sure that there are serious concerns in Gary Middleton's constituency about where Brexit has led everyone.”
“I am not sure where to start, because Paul Givan threw me in his introductory remarks. He started off by explaining international law, in his view, as he is perfectly entitled to do. He went on to bring up the leaders of the 1916 Easter Rising and his concerns about how they would feel about Sinn Féin's position on Brexit, Europe etc. He carried on to question our republican socialist credentials on the world stage. I sat and listened to him and wondered whether I had entered a different time zone or a world where things had turned upside down. <BR /> <BR />Then I realised what was going on. It was a classic example of distraction politics: talk about something other than what we want to talk about, or what you do not want to hear your base, your supporters, farmers or factory workers talk about.”
“Thank you for that information, Minister. Since the start of September, 22 hospital deaths have been reported. I hate going into statistics but this is important: 12 of those 22 are associated with the outbreaks in Daisy Hill and Craigavon, meaning that 54% of all recorded hospital deaths are associated with those outbreaks. Surely, Minister, those investigations should be ongoing and the findings used to protect hospital staff, patients and visitors.”
“The furlough scheme has been a lifeline for many workers and their families and, indeed, for employers to keep skilled employees in place. Will the Minister outline how the job retention scheme that has now been announced compares to the furlough scheme?”
“I support the Minister in bringing forward proposals that ensure that the public sector builds more quickly and builds more.”
“Imagination and leadership need to be shown for the controlled sector in Lurgan. <BR /> <BR />Minister, as you know and as is our job, we will continue to lobby for the variety of schools that are out there. Whenever you listen to announcements from the British Government and others, you find that capital is available in the time ahead.”
“<BR /> <BR />I want to mention the controlled sector in Lurgan. There are plans to bring three post-primary schools in the Catholic sector in Lurgan together at St Ronan's College. Why was that decision made? It was made because it was dealing with all the children in the Catholic sector. The same decision needs to be made about the controlled sector in Lurgan. A proposal needs to be brought forward that meets the needs of all the children in the controlled sector, and that then has to move to a building programme to meet the needs of all the children in the controlled sector in Lurgan. I am not getting into a debate on selection, but, to date, I have seen proposals that meet the needs of selection. There are ways round that that will meet the needs of everyone.”
“I encourage the Minister to open area planning again and make sure that the relevant EA committees and his own structures are meeting and that decisions start to be made on development proposals, particularly on St John the Baptist Primary School in Portadown. <BR /> <BR />This is not connected with capital, although capital may be required, but I welcome the announcement of the nurture units. The nurture units are a fantastic development in our education system. During my time at the Department of Education, we were slow at the start in getting them off the ground for a variety of reasons. I think that there was some suspicion of them in officialdom at the time. However, the benefits of the investment in them were seen, and there should be more investment in nurture units. They will deliver long-term changes for our young people.”
“If you invest £4 million, especially in a primary school, you have practically built a new school. Four million pounds will deliver a major rebuild for our post-primary schools. I have often encouraged schools that are lobbying for complete new builds to look at the school enhancement programme, because it delivers significant changes to the school estate. As I said, schools across Upper Bann have benefited from it and have seen the difference that it has made for their young people. <BR /> <BR />I will also mention St John the Baptist Primary School. That is a case where a development proposal benefits not only the local community but the education system and does not require an investment. It is a major school at the minute. It has significant buildings that are not being used.”
“However, I commend the Department of Education staff, who, in both instances, have worked tirelessly with the schools, and the other agencies, such as the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS) and the Education Authority, that have also worked tirelessly with the schools to get the projects nearly over the line. I welcome Dolores's comments about heads being knocked together in order to get reports sent around for transport etc. That is a welcome development, and it will help to move the project on. <BR /> <BR />One of the best developments over recent years in delivering the new school estate — Upper Bann has benefited from it in a number of announcements that the Minister has made recently — is the school enhancement programme, with builds of up to £4 million.”
“I scanned them and came across one word that I went back to the permanent secretary with: "proportionate". That is what is has to be: proportionate to the task, to the announcement made and to the benefit that it will bring to the children, teachers and community to have a new school build. That is where we have to get to. Collectively, as an Executive and in our scrutiny Committees, we have to get to the point where we, as a public-sector body, deliver public-sector projects in a reasonable time. <BR /> <BR />Mrs Kelly referred to the delay to St Ronan's, which has been unacceptable, and the delay to Lismore, which has also been unacceptable.”
“I looked at the folders, and they sat and looked at me for a while”
“I often recall how, after making an announcement in the Chamber about a programme of school builds, I was questioned on it by the Assembly and the Education Committee, and, several months later, I asked for a progress report, only to be told that officials were carrying out a business case to see whether my decision was the right decision. I politely went back and said, "Wait just one second. That is not your purpose. Your purpose is to deliver the decision that I announced to the Assembly". Of course, we need business cases and to make sure that public funds are properly spent, but the system should not feed itself. <BR /> <BR />On one occasion, I asked for a copy of the guidance notes on business cases. On a Thursday evening, they arrived in my office: two large, thick folders with guidance on how to deliver a business case.”
“I thank Dolores Kelly for bringing the debate forward. I declare an interest as the vice chair of the board of governors of Lismore Comprehensive School, and I sit on that school's project board for the new build. <BR /> <BR />I come at this from an angle of experience of trying to deal with the maintenance backlog and with the new school build programme that is required out there and trying to ensure that, when decisions are made, they come to fruition. I have concerns. This is not a matter solely for the Minister, and it dates back to my time in the Executive. The public sector is far too slow in delivering building programmes across a wide range of issues, and there is a variety of reasons for that. One is that the system feeds itself.”
“I am in danger of misquoting, but I think that it was Beckett who said that education is the lighting of a fire, not the filling of a bucket. I welcome the fact that the Minister is hoping to use materials from across the board. We have our local curriculum that has served our pupils very well. Everything is open to revision and review, but it is important that you, as our Minister, deliver a curriculum that meets the needs of our children.”
“The Minister will be aware that, since 2007, despite increased investment in Invest NI, it has actually created fewer jobs year on year. Does the Minister agree that we need to hold what we have at the moment and that there should be increased investment in apprenticeships, youth services and our students, so that we create a future for the young people who have been so badly affected by COVID-19?”
“Do you want to call Claire for a supplementary?”
“In the Antrim case, the wife of the patient who died of COVID-19 died herself of COVID-19, several weeks later. COVID-19 not only impacts on the patient, but on the family. <BR /> <BR />I said that I would not take up all my time to allow other Members to speak, but I leave those points with the Minister.”
“I urge the Minister to appoint a Chair, and in agreement with him or her, set terms of reference and get the investigation up and going. In that way, our health service, health workers, patients and communities can have confidence that the matter is being tackled in an independent manner and that lessons will be learned from it very quickly, so that we minimise the risk of further outbreaks in other hospitals. <BR /> <BR />I will end on this point. Figures are available for deaths and infections in hospital, but I am having difficulty in establishing how many people have suffered secondary infection from outbreaks in hospitals. I am aware of a number of cases, including at least one death, where the partner of someone who has died has been infected. I suspect there are other, similar cases.”
“While researching for the debate, I looked at the deaths from COVID-19 in hospital over this last period. On 25 August, when it was announced that there was infection in the haematology ward, deaths in hospital stood at 561. Today, they stand at 577. Therefore, the death toll during that period grew by 16. Of those deaths, 11 are associated with the outbreak in Craigavon hospital and Daisy Hill. That is, 75% of hospital COVID-19 deaths are as a result of patients catching COVID-19 in the hospital, which is shocking. <BR /> <BR />I come back to my point. We need the investigation up and running. I have concerns as to whether the serious adverse incident procedure is the right way to do it, but my bigger concern is that time is not on our side.”
“The Minister said that the trust has been engaging with Public Health England and that it is giving advice, but is that advice going out to the other hospitals? The Minister may want to respond to that. Can the source of the outbreak be identified? As I said to the Minister yesterday, it is either a person, equipment or a process. I accept that COVID-19 is in the community, so it can and will get into our hospital settings. If we do not know how and we do not know why and we have not set up an investigation, there is a danger of it happening again.”
“That is why I question whether, perhaps, we need to move this beyond the trust. <BR /> <BR />It is not that I have any evidence to suggest that the trust has mishandled the issue or is to blame for the outbreaks; I have not. I am not pointing fingers of responsibility at anybody in the senior management or the executive of the trust, but given the scale of the outbreaks and the number of deaths involved, the investigation may have to be moved beyond the trust to be carried out by another body, agency or group of individuals. <BR /> <BR />My other concern, then, is time. It has been two weeks since the announcement; there have been multiple deaths since then and lessons have to be learnt.”
“I have provided further information to the Minister outside the Chamber in that regard. <BR /> <BR />I am beginning to question whether a serious adverse incident is the best way to deal with the situation. I am looking into the matter more and more, and when I listened to the chief executive of the Southern Trust this morning on the airwaves, I was concerned when he said that the trust had not yet agreed the terms of reference or the appointment of a chair. I am asking myself: is the trust agreeing the terms of reference? Is the trust to confirm the chair? The chair is supposed to be independent. I would like to think that it was the Minister who appoints the chair, not the trust, and that the Minister, in conjunction with the chair, will approve the terms of reference. The investigation has to be thorough and independent.”
“A week or so later, it was announced that there had been an outbreak in ward 3 south, in which a number of staff and patients had been affected. I questioned the Minister about that in the Chamber on 7 September and I asked him what his plans were. He announced a level 3 serious adverse incident in relation to that outbreak — the highest level that there can be. <BR /> <BR />However, as I said to the Minister yesterday, no chair or panel has been appointed and the investigation has not started. Since 7 September, when four patients had died, six patients have now died. Daisy Hill Hospital has had an outbreak and five patients have died there. I understand that there is evidence, though not proven, that there is a relationship between the outbreaks at Craigavon and Daisy Hill.”
“Strangely enough at the time, the media reports referred to the fact that 24 members of staff had tested positive but there was no reference to patients at that time. The reason that I highlight that is because the serious adverse incident, which the family have now got the trust to call, was announced to the family in or around 5 or 6 August, yet no chair or panel has been appointed and the investigation has not started. <BR /> <BR />Moving forward to the last week of August, there was an outbreak in the emergency department of Craigavon Area Hospital in which two members of staff were affected and others had to isolate. On 25 August, it was announced that there had been an outbreak in Craigavon Area Hospital's haematology ward. A significant number of staff and 14 patients were affected.”
“The family are now engaging with the health authorities and have been in correspondence with your Department and office. I will go into greater detail with you outside the Chamber as I do not want their family name to be in the public realm. <BR /> <BR />However, they have informed me that there was an outbreak in Antrim Area Hospital. The media reported that there were at least two deaths associated with that outbreak in wards C6 and C7 of Antrim Area Hospital. I will raise that outbreak in conjunction with the Craigavon Area Hospital case, as I was not aware of any other incidents. However, the family have now informed me that after significant engagement with the Northern Trust, a level 2 serious adverse incident (SAI) investigation is being carried out into that outbreak.”
“However, the task of an MLA and the Assembly is to hold Ministers to account, and that is how I present myself to the Assembly and the Minister today. <BR /> <BR />Minister, I am going to take a step back from Craigavon Area Hospital and look back a few months. Over the last number of weeks, when we have been debating this issue, families from other areas have been in contact with me, and I want to highlight an issue. In previous debates, I have told you that I was not aware of any other acute hospital that had a COVID-19 outbreak. That was my position until yesterday, when I was contacted by a family who said that they have been impacted by a COVID-19 outbreak at Antrim Area Hospital in April of this year. April was the height of the COVID-19 outbreak, which will probably become known as the first wave as we enter another serious era.”
“I doubt that I will take the entire 15 minutes because there is considerable interest in the debate and I want to let other Members speak. I concur with your remarks about Mr Beattie and condemn the threats against him. I know that he has faced threats before and that it will not deter him from his task. I wish him and his family well at this time. <BR /> <BR />I also acknowledge that the Health Minister has been in the Chamber a lot today. I acknowledge the work that he has been doing over the last number of months on COVID-19. His task is not easy. I am not here to berate the Minister; I am not here to make his task any more difficult. I am here to support the Minister, his Department, the staff of Craigavon Area Hospital and the other hospitals that have been dealing with COVID-19.”
“A person, a process or equipment has let the system down, and, unless we get the serious incident investigation up and going, we will not know, which means that this could be repeated somewhere else.”
“Minister, on 7 September I asked an urgent oral question to you in the Chamber. On that day, you said to me that you were going to establish a serious adverse incident in Craigavon Area Hospital and that a chair would be appointed. At that stage, four people had died as a result of the outbreak on the haematology ward in Craigavon: it is now six. Five are dead as a result of the outbreak at Daisy Hill. The serious adverse incident has not been established and the chair has not been appointed. Does the Minister agree that time is not on our side? He has said that it is not the time to apportion blame — I agree with him — but something has gone wrong.”
“<BR /> <BR />I met David's wife, Fionnuala, on several occasions, and, I have to say, they were a lovely couple, always very welcoming and very warm. I offer the family my deepest sympathies. It is another reminder, as if we need one, of the dangers that COVID-19 presents to our communities and another tragic loss for a family as a result of this terrible disease. I pass on my sympathies and the sympathies of my party to all concerned.”