John O'Dowd
Upper Bann · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“As I set out in response to the previous question, we have in place the vacant property rate relief scheme and the small business rate relief scheme, which are very successful. I set aside £10 million in the draft Budget for small business rate relief to be invested.”
“I am particularly keen to hear from those impacted by vacant commercial units and especially about how any phased increase can be implemented in a sustainable way that is fair, proportionate and sustainable within the tax system.”
“I outlined my intent to take that approach in my statement on 18 November, alongside the fact that reform of rating policy should support growth, make better use of property and ensure that the system is fair, proportionate and aligned with wider economic objectives.”
“The accelerator will operate alongside our highly successful Back in Business scheme, which has helped to bring over 100 vacant high street properties back into use since May 2024. Those issues have been the subject of considerable interest and comment in the Assembly, and it is right that we grasp the nettle now.”
“There are no circumstances in which a hard border would be good for the people of Ireland; it would not be good for anyone. Those who suggest that are being naive at best and dangerous at worst, in the sense of not understanding this society. <BR /> <BR />Rural communities along the border are one and the same.”
“This announcement represents the next step in that. That said, I also put on record my intention to strengthen support for small businesses. In that vein, £10 million has been set aside in the draft Budget to broaden the impact of the small business rate relief scheme in order to increase the number of businesses that can benefit from it.…”
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“<BR /> <BR />A number of Members mentioned the financial provisions Bill. It has taken longer than I or, indeed, my predecessor, would have hoped. We are sponsoring the Bill on behalf of a number of Departments that are bringing through different clauses in relation to finances, a number of which relate to the black boxes. A number of Members have referred to the fact that it has taken a while to draft the Bill, but I hope to introduce it to the House in the near future, and then Members can start scrutinising and discussing that Bill. Likewise, the Fiscal Council Bill is important legislation that will put the Fiscal Council on a legislative basis. <BR /> <BR />During Question Time, I touched on how allocations relating to storm Éowyn were delivered, but I will do so again for the fullness of debate.”
“Work is ongoing in my Department to assist Departments in looking at their budgets over the next five years etc, but that will only be indicative, and, as we have seen over the past year, things can change quite suddenly, both for the better and for the worse. I am looking forward to the spending review from the Treasury in June with trepidation and with hope. I am hopeful that we will get a three-year resource Budget and a four-year capital Budget, but I am concerned that the spending review might also involve spending cuts. It will bring opportunity, but it may also bring severe challenges to us. I assure Members that, if there is a three-year and four-year Budget as a result of the spending review, I will bring proposals to the Executive for a corresponding Budget based on that review.”
“A regional rates order will be brought to the Assembly, hopefully by the start of March, subject to the Business Office process. An Assembly debate will be held in the same manner as last year, and it will require a cross-community vote because it is a tax measure. The Executive have agreed the poundage, which has already been announced. Therefore, a decision has been made based on the draft Budget. <BR /> <BR />Indicative multi-year budgets were touched on at the start of the debate. That issue has been raised by a number of Members during the debate. At this stage, everybody should be acutely aware that we cannot set a multi-year budget without Treasury setting a spending review over a corresponding period.”
“I turn to some of the questions that were raised and some of the points that were made. The proposed regional rate was not "hidden away". It is part of the draft Budget. It is part of the calculations upon which our draft Budget is based. It was set at 5% for domestic properties and 3% for non-domestic properties, in recognition of the current challenges that our business sector faces, though that is not to ignore the challenges that homes, families, communities and workers face. Most people will recognise that you have to raise revenue to deliver public services. Quite understandably, there is a discussion about the scale of that revenue. It is also important to debate how we deliver an effective and efficient public service.”
“We can do things better for ourselves. Representatives around the Chamber know their communities better than anyone; they know the challenges and the opportunities that they face. Challenging as the stability of this place may be, having more fiscal powers would make us greater stakeholders in our present and in our future and would mean that we would have to work together to deliver the genuine changes that everyone wants. I favour fiscal devolution. Others in the Chamber may not favour it, but we have to convince them of its benefits. Obviously, I favour constitutional change, because I believe that our ability to make the proper decisions for the people we serve are constrained by the current constitutional arrangements. That discussion and debate will continue as we move forward.”
“I will in a second, yes. <BR /> <BR />I am not claiming for one second that I, as Finance Minister, have all the answers. I am genuinely interested in listening to others around the Executive table, obviously, and to Committees and Members in the Chamber for alternatives to the proposals that are in front of us and alternatives that we may use in the future, but they have to be realistic. While some may challenge the Executive or Committee by saying, "We do not have enough information in front of us", the bottom line is that you know the figures, and you know the services that are being delivered — there is a wealth of experience in the Chamber — and you know how we raise revenue, so come forward with an alternative. I can assure you that, as Finance Minister, I will engage with and listen to you.”
“, if I stray from the subject — but there is a responsibility on colleagues: if you are championing one cause in opposition to another, you need to come forward with alternatives for Budget funding. The days of saying, "You're wrong; I'm right" are grand, but, if we are wrong and you are right, you need to come forward with the alternative. You need to present a viable alternative to the propositions that are in front of you, and then let us debate, discuss and thrash them out.”
“<BR /> <BR />Many Members rightly focused on their Committee responsibilities; others had a broader perspective on all matters. We may come to this tomorrow — apologies, a Phríomh-Leas-Cheann Comhairle”
“We are maintaining services; we are creating services; we are maintaining jobs; we are creating jobs; and we are investing significantly in our local economy through our budgetary practices in the Assembly and the Executive. Yes, let us discuss the challenges and obstacles in front of us, but let us also discuss and champion what we are doing. Collectively, we can work our way round the obstacles in front of us. <BR /> <BR />As I said, Members discussed a wide range of issues. It was useful to listen to those. Questions were posed to me on the papers and resolutions in front of us. I will go through them as best I can, and my officials will follow up in writing to Members on anything that I miss. I am sure that we will return to some of those subjects at the Budget Bill's Second Stage tomorrow.”
“. I will leave you in anticipation about whether I will use the 53 minutes. <BR /> <BR />It has been an interesting debate. I thank Members for their kind wishes for my new role. I have sat through many such debates in various positions, as both a member and a non-member of the Executive. The debates are a useful reminder not only of the challenges that the Executive face but of the opportunities and of the ongoing delivery of public services every day of the week by hard-working, dedicated public servants. <BR /> <BR />While, of course, we should focus on the challenges, what is not happening and what should be happening, it is also, sometimes, worth pausing and looking at what is happening. We spend billions upon billions of pounds on the delivery of front-line public services.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-Leas-Cheann Comhairle”
“I am far from an expert on the matter, but it is one of those policies that, when it works, it works. However, if you are an individual who believes that you have not been treated with dignity at work, it has not worked for you. There are always lessons to be learned in any policy, and the real-life experiences of staff are the most important barometer by which to measure any of those things.”
“Given the significant expenditure of our Departments, we have to ensure that that investment does not create further adverse impacts on the climate and that we take measures that support the objectives of the Climate Change Act 2022 and the strategies that have been brought forward by various Departments, particularly the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs. <BR /> <BR />We have a huge opportunity here, through our procurement, to act in the public good, particularly in carrying out measures that support our climate change objectives and create opportunities for change.”
“The revised public procurement note on scoring social value is effective from 24 February 2025. Related to the previous question, one of the main revisions of the policy note is in connection with climate change. The revised policy expands on delivering climate action and includes more indicators, more focus on climate adaptation etc and a greater understanding of the benefit of delivering social value through public procurement exercises and how that benefits local communities and the economy.”
“<BR /> <BR />Moving forward, I would like to be in a position to set aside an emergency pot of funding to ensure that we can respond to the emergencies as they arise, but, given the constrained nature of our Budget at this time, it is very difficult to do so.”
“I am actively working in collaboration with the AERA Minister in particular on such issues as the green growth strategy and climate change activities etc. It will continue to be a challenge over the next number of years. Given the budgetary constraints that the Executive face, it is very difficult to set aside a financial pot for emergencies. In many ways, we have been relatively lucky in the last number of storms. We have been able to respond with teams of dedicated staff out on the ground. We have been able to respond financially to the storms, and we await the full costings of that response.”
“As I outlined earlier to a colleague, we have made significant investments on behalf of the Executive, providing money to the majority of Departments that made bids for funding and support. The Member will also be aware that the significant damage in and around the Stormont estate has had an impact on the Department of Finance. Around 200 trees have been felled. Some of them dated back many years and had seen much of the history of this Building and the land around it. Significant damage was done, and investment will be required to clear up. The scale of that damage and how much it will cost in total to repair are still being assessed. From the point of view of supporting other Departments, I have outlined the funding that we have provided and the damage caused, in particular, to the Stormont estate.”
“I am more than happy to do so. We have common cause to support those who face challenges in the housing market. Where my Department can assist, it will.”
“At this stage, I am not aware of that work, but I am more than happy to respond to the Member in writing.”
“Yes, I am more than happy to do that. Any measures that we can take to support parents with childcare needs and the childcare sector are important not only for the families but for the broader economy.”
“Once I know those consequences, I will be in a better position to inform the Executive and the Assembly — this body — and then decisions will have to be made collectively by the Executive on where the limited support that we will be able to deliver will go.”
“It has to be said that, since coming back in February last year, the Executive have made significant strides in childcare. Working together, we have seen significant investment in childcare. For instance, the 2025-26 draft Budget increases the allocations for short-term supportive measures to £50 million. That is the biggest ever spend on childcare costs by any Executive. <BR /> <BR />I accept the Member's point about costs in the sector continuing to rise and costs for parents therefore also continuing to rise. That relates to the conversation that we had earlier in Question Time about knowing fully the consequences of the Chancellor's decision on National Insurance contributions.”
“I am aware of the report and the comments in it. The usual way of responding to such reports is that the PAC forwards the report to the sponsor Department and my Department for a formal response. That is how the report will be dealt with: through the formal processes. <BR /> <BR />I am not in any way underestimating or undervaluing the overcommitment of £2·45 billion — it is huge — but let us understand all the aspects of how we got there. When we understand all the aspects of how we got there, we will find that the answer and solution are more readily available, rather than a headline blaming civil servants.”
“Sometimes you do not need new governance; you need to ensure that the governance that is already in place is properly implemented and delivered. The priority is to get the project delivered as far within budget as possible and as quickly as possible. <BR /> <BR />Other factors relating to increased budget costs over the past few years have been COVID, the Ukraine war, significant inflation in construction costs causing the cost of projects to rapidly increase and the fact that a number of our projects face significant legal challenges. Yes, there is a role for the Civil Service and a role for politicians — there is a role for all of us — but I caution Members against pointing the finger of blame solely at our Civil Service.”
“I have heard some of the public discourse on the issue. It is wrong and a huge mistake to blame the Civil Service for it. We are all responsible for the delivery of capital projects. It is worth noting — I say this advisedly — that, although the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) does excellent work, every report that it publishes calling for further layers of bureaucracy on top of the layers of bureaucracy that are already in place for the delivery of projects causes further delays because those layers of bureaucracy have to be delivered to get over the other layers of bureaucracy that are required to build the thing that you want to build. From a ministerial point of view and from the Committee's point of view, I urge caution on the matter.”
“The Member has proven himself wiser than I thought he was about commissions and councils. I thank him very much for that. <BR /> <BR />I am here not to respond about any matters in the Sinn Féin manifesto but as a member of a power-sharing Executive who have to work collaboratively to deliver the public services that people want and need. I am more than happy to have a debate with the Member about the Sinn Féin manifesto at any time, but, as I said, I have a planned work programme to do the very work that he is keen for me to carry out. I have no doubt that he will be supportive of that work when it commences.”
“The Member will be aware that all parties stand on their manifesto. If appointed to the Executive, Members have to work in a power-sharing Executive with Executive colleagues and agree a work programme. That is what we have done since we came back. <BR /> <BR />On that specific issue, in reply to an earlier question, I said that the Fiscal Council had done great work on the funding model of 124%. It is doing further work on a needs-based assessment. When it completes that work, one of the programmes of work that I want it to take forward is to look at greater devolution of fiscal authority and powers to the Assembly. I have therefore planned that programme of work, and I want to see it completed as soon as possible.”
“The work programme has been set out in such a way as to be able to respond to the issues. If, however, a decision is made in Whitehall that does not particularly fit into our programme of work, it is sometimes difficult for us to reprioritise our work streams. The Department is also working with limited resources. We do not have an infinite supply of staff and other resources with which to carry out such work. <BR /> <BR />Domestic rating policy is important, and it is important that we continue that work. I assure the Member that we will move as quickly as possible on the small business rate relief scheme and the other scheme.”
“That work will also build on research being undertaken by Ulster University into the cost of doing business. It is a piece of work that was commissioned, as I have said, by my predecessor and will allow us to approach Treasury and others with an informed, evidence-based argument.”
“It will start by reviewing the small business rate relief scheme and non-domestic vacant rating exclusions — two key policy areas highlighted by stakeholders since the restoration of the Executive last year.”
“I will provide an update on the proposed changes to domestic rating policy. On 29 January, my Department launched a 12-week consultation on two domestic rating measures. The consultation builds on work undertaken by my Department last year, and I encourage people to respond. The first proposal is to elevate the maximum capital value used for rates bills from £400,000 to £485,000. The second proposal is to reduce the early payment discount from its current 4% to 2%. The consultation closes off year 1 of a planned 10-year strategic review cycle of rates supports being progressed by my Department. The work for year 2 — 2025-26 — will move on to the non-domestic side of rating.”
“I assure the Member that that is my intention. Going equipped with evidence and the data is the best way to advance that argument.”
“I am always willing to meet key stakeholders to discuss these matters and listen to their ideas and proposals. I have already met representatives of a number of sectors and will continue to do so. I am offering a round table to the broader business community, and I have no doubt that this subject will arise there. However, I am always happy to meet the sectors.”
“As I said, significant support is given to small and medium-size businesses through the rate relief scheme that we operate, which I think gives welcome support to local businesses. The Member will be aware that neither I, the Executive nor the House has any powers to reduce or, for that matter, increase VAT. Therefore, it is outside my and our remit to offer support in that regard. However, the report on the cost of doing business that was commissioned by my predecessor will be invaluable to us in approaching the Treasury and others in our support of those businesses. It is quite evident that we need an evidence base to approach the Treasury. The Fiscal Council report proved to be very beneficial and persuasive in our argument. We also need the data to back up our argument, so data-driven and evidence-based is the way forward.”
“I will continue to make the case for a reduction in VAT to enable our hospitality sector to compete on a level playing field in the all-island economy. That is an issue that I will raise with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury at the next Finance: Interministerial Standing Committee meeting, which is to be held later this month.”
“With your permission, Mr Speaker, I will answer questions 6 and 15 together. <BR /> <BR />My Department has repeatedly highlighted to the Treasury the challenges facing our hospitality industry, particularly the high VAT rates faced by business here relative to the South. Unfortunately, the British Government, who are responsible for setting VAT rates, have so far been unwilling to address the issue. My Department continues to support the local hospitality sector through, for example, significant rate support, with 65% of the sector in receipt of support via the small business rate relief scheme. My Department has commissioned an independent study of the cost of doing business here, which will consider the impact of North/South VAT differentials.”
“The figure is around £200 million in increased costs for the public sector, councils and the community and voluntary sector. The missing part of the equation is that I do not know how much the Treasury is going to give the Executive as a result of the Barnett consequentials that it plans to make available in Whitehall. Some of the estimates that we have received, even from our own Departments, from the community and voluntary sector or from councils, are fluid in the sense of changing workforce numbers etc, but the figure is around £200 million. How much is coming from the Treasury? Nothing has been confirmed to us yet.”
“Your level of wisdom or lack of it does not fall within my remit. I can assure the Member that my predecessor and I have pressed this issue home. First, we need to understand exactly how the British Government are going to respond to their commitment to support the public sector with Barnett consequentials as a result of their decision to increase National Insurance contributions. When I have that information confirmed to me, I will inform my Executive colleagues, the Finance Committee and the House. As my predecessor rightly said, I suspect that we are going to face a significant financial challenge as a result of that decision. However we end up here, it is not going to be good news. I accept that certainty is better than uncertainty, and I will continue to press for that certainty.”
“The F:ISC will meet in Cardiff on, I think, 27 February, and, as I said, I have already had a meeting with my Scottish and Welsh counterparts on that matter. I will raise the matter directly, as will they, I am sure, with Treasury officials at the upcoming meeting.”
“That follows my predecessor's writing to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury three times to raise concerns in relation to the potential cost impact of the planned changes to employers' National Insurance contributions on central and local government here and to ask Treasury to meet the full cost of that impact. <BR /> <BR />The issue is fluid and evolving, but what is clear is that it is a policy change, introduced by Westminster, which is going to have a financial impact on the public sector here, on the voluntary and community sectors and on others that deliver public services. In my view, therefore, it is only right and proper that the British Government meet the full cost of the change. Otherwise, it is going to have a negative effect on the delivery of public services here and on those who depend on them.”
“I raised that issue in my introductory call with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury on 5 February. I will also use the Finance: Interministerial Standing Committee (F:ISC) meeting, which is due to take place later this month, to highlight the issue again with the Chief Secretary in person. <BR /> <BR />In advance of that meeting, I attended a trilateral meeting with my counterparts in the Welsh and Scottish Governments, both of whom expressed similar concerns about the financial effect of that change in policy in their jurisdictions.”
“I have given my commitment to the House that I will take careful, personal consideration and oversight of the matter as that area of technological advancement increases and increases rapidly. We have all witnessed significant technological advancement in our own lifetime, which has, in many ways, provided and improved public services, making them more efficient and ensuring that we are able to deliver them to as many people as possible in constrained budgetary times. However, as I said, it is not simply a case of pounds, shillings and pence. You cannot carry out that equation on the basis of simple costs alone. Many elements have to be taken on board. I assure the Member that the fullest examination of that will be taken forward before any radical decisions are made.”
“There are too many elements to understand before decisions are made.”
“As I say, we have started a number of pilots in my Department. I know that other Departments and government agencies are using AI. We have set up a working group to take an initial view of it and to learn from other state providers and states that are at a much more advanced stage than we are. As I said to the previous questioner, the most important things are to protect people's personal data, ensure that everyone who interfaces with the system, if it is public-facing, feels comfortable doing so, and do not simply replace staff with AI because it is cost-efficient. You cannot simply measure the contribution of staff on the basis of pounds, shillings and pence. Greater measures have to be taken into account rather than simply using a mathematical equation. It cannot be a mathematical equation.”
“However, it is an area that deserves careful monitoring by me, which it will have.”
“I can imagine the headlines in some of tomorrow's newspapers as they report that the Assembly has discussed artificial intelligence, and what the suggestions might be. <BR /> <BR />A working group is a sufficient and effective response to where we are at this stage. As I said, technology is rapidly changing. Developments in AI can and will help to deliver public services, but we have to do that in an ethical way. We have to ensure that data and human dignity, for instance, are protected and that all service users are comfortable interacting with the AI if it is a front-facing service or a service that we use behind the scenes for reading and interrogating documents. I have already discussed the matter with officials. At this stage, I am satisfied that we are on the right path.”
“My Department has established an AI working group that is made up of digital leaders from across Departments to share emerging findings and take on board learnings, including those from other jurisdictions.”
“The pace of technological change is rapid. It is crucial that we understand the transformative power of AI and how it can be harnessed to benefit our society but in a responsible and controlled manner. AI presents many opportunities for the public sector to automate routine tasks, streamline processes and improve the management of public resources. My Department has been taking forward a number of small-scale proof-of-value projects to examine the use of AI in a measured way in order to understand how the technology can deliver value in the public sector. I am aware that other Departments are utilising AI to assist with the delivery of their services and that others are beginning to pilot and test the value of AI adoption.”
“There are at least two aspects to the issue. The first is about support for public bodies and government agencies, for which I am directly responsible along with my Executive colleagues. In our initial response to storm Éowyn, we were able to allocate £17 million or thereabouts. The second is about responsibility for other matters, such as utilities. Setting aside NI Water, which is a publicly owned company, responsibility rests with the utility companies. Whether it is electricity, broadband, internet connections etc, there is a huge onus on those companies to ensure that they look after their customers in the wake of the storm and ensure that they are properly compensated for their loss.”
“Again, those are matters for individual Ministers. Just before I came into post, my predecessor received notification from the Treasury that some funding was available. It was moved on very quickly. A letter was issued to Departments to respond. They did respond and funding was allocated on that basis. It is up to each Department to decide how to allocate that funding and what services it will support with it.”