John O'Dowd
Upper Bann · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“As I set out in response to the previous question, we have in place the vacant property rate relief scheme and the small business rate relief scheme, which are very successful. I set aside £10 million in the draft Budget for small business rate relief to be invested.”
“I am particularly keen to hear from those impacted by vacant commercial units and especially about how any phased increase can be implemented in a sustainable way that is fair, proportionate and sustainable within the tax system.”
“I outlined my intent to take that approach in my statement on 18 November, alongside the fact that reform of rating policy should support growth, make better use of property and ensure that the system is fair, proportionate and aligned with wider economic objectives.”
“The accelerator will operate alongside our highly successful Back in Business scheme, which has helped to bring over 100 vacant high street properties back into use since May 2024. Those issues have been the subject of considerable interest and comment in the Assembly, and it is right that we grasp the nettle now.”
“There are no circumstances in which a hard border would be good for the people of Ireland; it would not be good for anyone. Those who suggest that are being naive at best and dangerous at worst, in the sense of not understanding this society. <BR /> <BR />Rural communities along the border are one and the same.”
“This announcement represents the next step in that. That said, I also put on record my intention to strengthen support for small businesses. In that vein, £10 million has been set aside in the draft Budget to broaden the impact of the small business rate relief scheme in order to increase the number of businesses that can benefit from it.…”
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“Those matters are for the Health Minister and the Belfast Trust. My task as Finance Minister is to present a Budget to the Executive and the Assembly. Once that is agreed, how their budget is used is down to individual Ministers.”
“We will have to go through the legislative process, but I am fully confident that the issuing of certificates will happen in this mandate.”
“That question was part of the consultation. Without pre-empting the outcome of the consultation, I see the charging element being used not for parents who are collecting a baby loss certificate but in future circumstances in which someone may ask for multiple copies. When legislating, you have to make provision for all possibilities. If charging were to be introduced at a future date, regulations would have to be brought before the Assembly, which means that the Assembly would have the final say.”
“That is an important point. It is clearly a sensitive and emotive issue, particularly for parents who have lost a baby and have stepped forward to contribute to the consultation, so it is important that we listen carefully to their views. They know best how the scheme can support families. I am grateful for the many hundreds of responses to the consultation that have been received to date. I have also met Sands and the Little Forget Me Nots Trust, which provide support to families after the loss of a baby. My officials, alongside their work with those organisations, have run a concerted social media campaign to encourage widespread engagement with the public consultation. The figure to date — as I said, the number of responses received stands at 940 now — shows how widespread the message is, and I encourage more people to respond.”
“The public consultation on the baby loss certificate scheme commenced on 17 June and runs until 12 September. To date, over 940 responses have been received from individuals and organisations. I am extremely grateful to all who have taken the time to engage. Every response received will help us form a scheme that meets the needs and expectations of those who have been impacted on by the devastating loss of a baby. <BR /> <BR />As part of the consultation process, my officials also held two stakeholder engagement events last month to hear directly from those who are engaged in the provision of specialist services and who provide support to anyone who has been impacted by baby loss. I strongly encourage anyone who would like to express their views on the scheme please to do so before the consultation closes on 12 September.”
“It is an important lever that we require, and I look forward to continuing the discussions with the Treasury.”
“It will cover a number of areas including further consideration of Professor Holtham's review of our level of need, Housing Executive borrowing powers and additional fiscal devolution. In my opinion, it is vital that it provides the Executive with the financial tools that we need to deliver more sustainable public finances and public services. <BR /> <BR />Taxation is obviously a serious and important matter. It will focus the minds of this place and the Executive in relation to our responsibilities and roles here. Taxation is not simply about how you raise more taxes. You can change the level of tax that you raise in certain areas — you might want to increase it — but also in terms of public attitudes and approaches to various health matters, for instance.”
“Engagement with the Treasury is already under way in relation to greater fiscal powers for this place. Obviously, it will have to be a final decision for the Executive on which, if any, of those powers are transferred. However, those discussions are already in train. They started and continued from our discussions with the Treasury in relation to the comprehensive spending review and the Holtham report. We then immediately entered discussions around how we finalise the full fiscal framework for this place, including the devolution of tax-varying powers.”
“Not directly with the Chancellor on that occasion. However, the Member will be aware that, as part of the 2025-26 Budget, the Executive allocated £50 million towards early years and childcare strategy that supports hard-working families by delivering more affordable childcare. The number of children eligible for support has increased by 60% compared with last year, providing that much-needed subsidy, so the Executive have made significant strides in that regard. There was an additional £5 million awarded to childcare as part of one of the monitoring rounds as well. I know the importance of the issue, and I have no doubt that the Executive will continue to focus on it.”
“We have seen a number of U-turns from the Government, and I hope that this will be the next one or is certainly on the list, but, after listening to the Chancellor's response, I am not encouraged in any way to suggest that she will move from her current position.”
“The Member will be aware that the deputy First Minister and I met the Chancellor on the date in question. The issue of farm inheritance tax was raised with the Chancellor. I was not encouraged by the Chancellor's response, and I made it clear to her on a number of occasions throughout the meeting that decisions made in London that may have beneficial impacts, in their minds, on various areas in England or Wales have significantly different impacts on this place. Farm inheritance tax is definitely one of them. The impact that it has had here can and will be significantly detrimental to our farming community. However, the Chancellor, in my view, is not minded for turning on the issue.”
“I recently had the opportunity to meet the Welsh and Scottish Finance Ministers. At that stage, I believe that we were not aware of the date of the Budget, although we knew that it would be delayed. They have slightly different legal processes to go through. <BR /> <BR />The situation is not ideal for our budgetary processes, but it is best to wait for the Chancellor's statement on 26 November before we table our final Budget to the Executive. Hopefully, we will get agreement so that it can go out for public consultation. My main concern is that we want to ensure that we have maximum time for public consultation. Ideally, I want to see a 12-week consultation, and I think that that is still possible.”
“She highlighted the potential of digital technology and AI, the need to invest in skills, particularly through our universities, to attract future investment and the importance of leveraging trade opportunities and how the upcoming regional trade summit in October will provide an opportunity to showcase the North's businesses and inward investment opportunities to an international audience.”
“<BR /> <BR />The meeting also provided a valuable opportunity to showcase the Executive’s achievements to date. Those include the agreement of three Budgets; exceeding the £113 million income generation target set out in the restoration package; the establishment of a transformation fund and the allocation of £129 million to six innovative projects; and the publication of our Programme for Government. <BR /> <BR />Having visited Studio Ulster, the Chancellor acknowledged the strength of our creative sector, which is supported through city and growth deals.”
“With your permission, Mr Speaker, I intend to answer questions 1, 8 and 13 together. <BR /> <BR />The meeting with the Chancellor was useful and allowed me to update her directly on the issues facing the people whom we all represent. I emphasised the need for the upcoming Budget to support growth and continued investment in and transformation of our public services. I also stressed that any tax and spend decisions taken in the autumn Budget must fully consider the impact that they have on our people and local businesses. I raised the need for a full fiscal framework, including the need for additional fiscal devolution and borrowing powers. The Chancellor outlined the broader fiscal context ahead of the autumn Budget and highlighted the need for investment, growth and a review of the tax system.”
“She also raised the issue of tenancy fraud, and, again, there is a recommendation from the Audit Office in that regard. It is about making the best use of the provisions on audit when tenancy fraud takes place, including how to best investigate it and who is best placed to investigate it. <BR /> <BR />There are other elements related to overcharging or tenants not receiving proper services from contractors etc. I am not an expert on those matters, but I suspect that there is provision in the Housing Executive for those matters to be investigated. Those matters can be raised through the Department for Communities. <BR /> <BR />I have, hopefully, responded to the broad outline of Members' comments, and I recommend that the Assembly pass the Bill at Second Stage.”
“I do not think that it is anybody's intention to place barriers in front of anyone. I am putting to you the reality of some people's lives. We need to use our limited resources to make the best impact and have the best effect and give support to people who require it most. I would argue that an MLA who is heading into his 60s does not require it. Others may have a different view. <BR /> <BR />I have covered most of the points, but I will touch on fraud. A number of Members mentioned the Department for Communities. Diane Forsythe gave a history of the changes to the appointment of auditors and outlined the history of that through the Audit Committee. That Committee has been asked by the Finance Committee to scrutinise clause 20 and report on it.”
“Gerry referred — it was only a passing remark, not a definitive statement — to how this may be seen as routine legislation: there is no such thing as routine legislation, and I am sure that Members will carry out their duties diligently when scrutinising this and other legislation. <BR /> <BR />Some other comments were made. I reassure Gerry that, when it comes to the integration of and support for newcomers in our society, there has not been a change of policy in legislation. It is merely about placing a statutory framework around how that money is spent. I welcome the continued support offered by TEO and have no doubt that it would like to offer more and do things differently, but it is a joint office, and the legislation that we are examining today does not change the mandate or role; it merely gives legislative cover for the spend.”
“Quite rightly, we have to protect those in society who require protection, but I do not need protection in that sense. Think about it from both sides of the debate. I have no doubt that Members and their party colleagues will debate those issues at length in Committee. <BR /> <BR />Others Members welcomed the pipeline of legislation being opened. Mr O'Toole made his views on that known, and the opposition to the Opposition, Gerry Carroll, made his views known on that response. If any Member has not been in the Assembly when we have been working our way through reams of legislation, I advise you to buckle up. You are in for an interesting ride over the next year and a half, with long days and long nights in this place scrutinising legislation. You will be surprised at how quickly it can take over your life.”
“We must do everything that we can to support TEO in the delivery of that strategy, making it a reality, seeing its outworkings and positive results and making a significant change in attitudes in society to that dreadful issue. <BR /> <BR />Other issues include how the Department for the Economy will use loans, Tourism NI, councillors' allowances and SmartPasses etc. I have no doubt that those issues will be engaged on at Committee level. I caution Members against taking a populist view of any of the measures that raise revenue. As someone who is heading rapidly towards the age of 60, I am not in poverty, yet and all I will be handed a free bus pass. Think about it.”
“It is really for Members to decide what amendments they, the Committee or a Committee may wish to table. I will establish a view on that when I see the details of whatever implications it has. The Bill now sets the pathway and course for proper accountability on budgets. <BR /> <BR />Some of the issues in the Bill highlight the important work that goes on in Departments. A number of Members mentioned that. For example, ending violence against women and girls is important work. The shocking statistic is that 27 women have lost their life in these past number of years. The importance of work on that strategy is clear.”
“However, we are making a go of it here. <BR /> <BR />In terms —.”
“I note the Committee Chair's comments that the Committee has already been in correspondence with other Committees asking them to ensure — I am sure that they will — that they scrutinise the various elements of the Bill that relate to them and that they express their views on those. A number of the questions that were raised today will also have to be raised directly at Committee, and no doubt they will be. <BR /> <BR />It is strange, the things that you remember from this place. I remember a quite, at times, heated debate in the Chamber between Conor Murphy, a predecessor of mine, and Jim Allister about the black box. Things have dramatically improved since then, but this Bill will further improve them. Other anomalies may build up over time as we move through the budgetary processes, so we always have to come back to this sort of Bill.”
“Thank you, and I thank colleagues for their comments, views and questions on the Bill that is before us today. I will try to cover as many of those as possible in my closing remarks. <BR /> <BR />It is quite a wide-ranging Bill in the sense that it covers a lot of Departments and issues. It basically tidies up several matters that have accumulated over this last number of years and puts things on a proper statutory footing to enable them to proceed in a transparent and open way, allowing the Assembly and others to scrutinise properly Departments' budgets. <BR /> <BR />Only three elements of the Bill relate directly to my Department: the investment fund and FTC; the auditor; and the increase from 2% to 4% for excesses out of the Consolidated Fund.”
“<BR /> <BR />Members have previously raised concerns about the overuse of the sole authority of the Budget Act, which has been used to provide the legislative underpinning for various spending by Departments. I agree with Members on that. The Bill will address many of those concerns by providing Departments with the necessary legislative means under which such expenditure can be incurred. The Bill will also address other legislative gaps that have been identified. Furthermore, it will aid financial sustainability, strengthen financial governance and improve accountability. It is for those reasons that I have brought the Bill to the House today. <BR /> <BR />I commend the Bill to the House and urge Members to support its Second Stage passage.”
“<BR /> <BR />Clauses 18 and 20 focus on financial governance. Clause 18 will provide my Department with an increased limit on advances from the Consolidated Fund. That limit is currently 2% of the previous financial year's authorised expenditure. I wish to increase that to 4%. That would be a prudent measure in order to further safeguard against the risk that the lower limit is not sufficient to ensure the continued provision of public services. Clause 19 will remove the requirement for DFE to maintain separate accounts for petroleum and mineral receipts, thus streamlining financial reporting. Clause 20 will transfer the responsibility for appointing the external auditor of the Audit Office from DOF to the Assembly's Audit Committee, thereby enhancing independence and improving governance arrangements.”
“<BR /> <BR />Clauses 15 to 17 relate to additional fee-raising powers, which were requested by the Department for the Economy, DAERA and the Department for Infrastructure. Those Departments requested those powers to safeguard the provision of public services and improve financial sustainability. Under clause 15, DFE will be permitted, in exceptional circumstances, to exempt or reduce fees that are charged by Tourism NI and to introduce new fees where appropriate. Clause 16 enhances DAERA's ability to recover costs from marine licensing services that are provided by the Department. Clause 17 permits DFI to introduce a fee for the issuing or replacing of SmartPasses under the concessionary fares scheme, thereby supporting that important scheme's long-term financial sustainability.”
“The clause will correct a legislative oversight and ensure DE's continued support for the doctorate in educational, child and adolescent psychology, which is essential for meeting statutory duties in special educational needs. <BR /> <BR />Clauses 12 and 13 relate to the Department for Communities. Clause 12 enables the Housing Executive to investigate tenancy fraud on behalf of registered housing associations (RHAs) and to charge housing associations for that service. Clause 13 will transfer the responsibilities for setting the basic allowance for councillors from individual councils to the Department for Communities, ensuring consistency and fairness across local government.”
“That will ensure that our public appointments best reflect the communities that they serve. <BR /> <BR />As Members will be aware, ending violence against women and girls is a Programme for Government commitment. The Bill will support that priority through clause 9, which will give TEO the powers that are required to implement the strategic framework on ending violence against women and girls, including funding initiatives that are aligned with the aims that are set in that framework. <BR /> <BR />Clause 14 amends the appointment terms for the Commissioner for Survivors of Institutional Childhood Abuse, allowing for terms of fewer than five years where appropriate. <BR /> <BR />Clause 11 provides the Department of Education with the power to fund postgraduate qualifications in educational psychology.”
“Clauses 6 to 10 and clause 14 relate to the Executive Office. Under clause 6, TEO will be provided with the authority to provide services for victims and survivors of historical institutional abuse and other forms of institutional harm. TEO requested clause 7 because a gap in the current legislative framework exists. The new clause will enable it to coordinate integration support for asylum seekers and refugees locally, thus permitting TEO to utilise funds that have been provided to it by Whitehall Departments for those purposes. A further power that TEO requested is at clause 8. That provision will give TEO the power to arrange and facilitate opportunities for people to acquire the skills or experience that are necessary for public appointments, thereby encouraging equity, diversity and inclusion in such appointments.”
“Clause 3 allows the Department for the Economy to issue loan funding to the higher education sector, improving its ability to successfully deploy financial transactions capital (FTC) funding for capital projects in our universities and higher education institutions. Clause 4 will repeal an outdated aspect of employment and training legislation that dates back to the 1950s. That amendment will remove the requirement for Department of Finance approval for all schemes. Such approvals will, instead, be sought through the existing delegated limited procedures that are already being used successfully. Under clause 5, Tourism NI will be provided with powers to classify and grade tourist amenities beyond accommodation providers. That power is sought by the Department for the Economy to develop and strengthen the broader tourism sector.”
“<BR /> <BR />Clauses 2 to 5 have been requested by DFE and will provide it with additional powers in several key areas. First, clause 2 will enable the Department to provide financial assistance, such as grants, loans, guarantees or indemnities, where such action is in the interest of our economy. That will help to address concerns expressed during the COVID-19 pandemic about the Department's ability to provide such assistance. Clause 2 will also restore its power to form limited companies, which will aid the Department's flexibility in policy delivery, a further gap highlighted by the COVID response.”
“<BR /> <BR />Clauses 1 to 14 provide new powers to five Departments: the Department of Finance, the Department for the Economy, the Executive Office, the Department of Education and the Department for Communities. First, my Department seeks clause 1 to provide it with the statutory authority to issue loans to the Investment Fund. As Members will be aware, my Department is the policy lead for the Investment Fund. However, it does not have the power to make loans and has relied on TEO and the Strategic Investment Board (SIB) to make them. Clause 1 will address the legislative gap, and full responsibility for the Investment Fund will then transfer to my Department, thus enhancing financial governance, regularity and accountability.”
“I welcome the opportunity to move the Second Stage of the Bill. As Members will be aware, financial provisions Bills are required at regular intervals to deal with miscellaneous and routine financial matters that require amendments to governing legislation. It is on that basis that I present the Bill today. It has been 11 years since the previous Financial Provisions Bill, and many matters need to be resolved. In developing the Bill, I received several requests that it include some additional miscellaneous administrative matters. As there is no alternative or timely legislative vehicle to address those issues, I have agreed to accommodate them in the Bill. Hence, the Bill is the "Administrative and Financial Provisions Bill". The Bill has three broad sections: powers, fees and financial governance. I will take each in turn.”
“Indeed. We should never cede power to commissioners, ombudsmen and others in such roles. We are the democratic authority, and we should be precious about that. <BR /> <BR />I look forward to working through the Bill and scrutinising it with Members. Mr Carroll commented on the council's reports thus far. Here is the thing: the Executive, Members and I, as Minister, do not have to agree with everything that the Fiscal Council says. In fact, we do not have to agree with anything that the Fiscal Council says. It does a job. That job has been worthwhile thus far. Placing the council on a statutory footing is a worthwhile proposal. I hope that the Bill's broad principles will be accepted today. We will then work with the Committee and others to bring the finalised legislation to the House. Hopefully, that will happen in the near future.”
“Everyone in the Chamber has been elected by the people to do a job, and part of that job is to hold Ministers to account and to pass legislation and Budgets. When we are establishing bodies and commissions that, on the face of it, do good work, and the Fiscal Council does do good work, we have to be mindful and careful that we are not ceding power to anyone else. We are the democratic authority, and we must always be very precious about and protective of that. When we give powers to others, we must ensure that we are doing so truly for good and that doing so does not undermine our authority or our role. Although doing so may be well intentioned, it further undermines our position in the minds of the general public, because they say to themselves, "What is the point of having you, if all those other bodies do those jobs?"”
“<BR /> <BR />Mr Frew asked why councillors are to be excluded from being members of the Fiscal Council and why MPs are not to be excluded. The NI Assembly Disqualification Act 1975 disqualifies MPs from being Members of the Assembly. Members already know that. We will further clarify Mr Frew's point about whether MPs and TDs should also be listed in schedule 1. If further disqualifications need to be included in the legislation, so be it. If there is no bar in some other area to that happening, I do not see any problem with doing that. <BR /> <BR />The Fiscal Council has its role, but let us not surrender the Assembly's role to any other body or institution. The Assembly has the democratic authority.”
“As I have said, the purpose of scrutinising legislation is to see whether it is fit for purpose, but it is also to see whether it can be improved. I am willing to listen, but I caution Members against reinventing the wheel for the sake of it or trying to get one over the Department of Finance. The Member has made a valid point, and our engagement with the Treasury has been strengthened by the role that the Fiscal Council plays. The credibility that it brings to the debate has allowed us to engage with the Treasury on all those matters. <BR /> <BR />A number of Members mentioned clause 5. Subsection (5) confirms that, once the legislation has passed, no changes can be made to it without regulations being brought to the Assembly for approval.”
“Ultimately, if people want to interfere with the independence of the Fiscal Council through its budgetary framework, they can do so. If they are minded to interfere, they can. Thus far, however, the Fiscal Council has proven itself to be independent, robust and strong in how it does its work. Its challenge functions and its support functions have proved very beneficial to me as Minister of Finance, to the Executive and to the work of the Committee.”
“For a variety of reasons, there was a delay in the legislation's being introduced, but we have had an opportunity to test-drive the model. It works, by and large, and Members, with the odd exception, will generally agree that it does. Let us therefore not approach the legislation as reinventing the wheel. The Fiscal Council has proved its independence from the Department of Finance. I will listen to the debate as the Bill progresses. Members may argue that the Fiscal Council should be funded directly through the Audit Office or that it should be directly responsible to the Assembly. The counterargument to that, however, is that the current system is working and that all Budgets are approved by the Department of Finance and the Executive, because the Department produces the Budget and the Executive vote on it.”
“I thank the Members who contributed to the Bill's Second Stage debate. I will try to cover as many of the points that were made by Members as possible. The Chair of the Committee said that he was going to be constructive. He was, for most of his contribution. The general view of Members — not ignoring the views of Mr Carroll — is that they welcome the fact that we are moving to a statutory footing for the Fiscal Council. It is important that we move to that statutory footing and establish it on that basis. We need to give it the legal protection and powers that it requires to carry out its functions. I look forward to the debates at Committee and during the further stages of the Bill, and to hearing the pros and cons and the different opinions, some of which have been voiced here today, as to how we should manage the Fiscal Council.”
“If the Member reads further down clause 5, he will see at the very end, under subsection (5), that:”
“That will continue to build trust and credibility with the public, alongside informing the wider debate on public finances. <BR /> <BR />The Bill also sets out the details of the membership, staffing and other operational matters of the council, including arrangements for evaluation of its work. <BR /> <BR />That concludes the detail of the Bill, and I look forward to the Chair and the wider Committee's input and, indeed, input from other Members on this important legislation.”
“Another important aspect of the independent fiscal institution is the clear separation between analysis, which is the role of the Fiscal Council, and policymaking, which is the responsibility of Ministers and their Departments. The Bill is clear on that distinction. <BR /> <BR />While the council chair and members have indicated that they receive the information they need from Departments to perform their functions, the Bill will place a duty to guarantee in legislation the council's right of access to government information in the timely manner required for its purposes. <BR /> <BR />To ensure transparency, the Bill requires the council to publish all the documents that it produces. The council already does that, having published over 20 reports since its formation four years ago.”
“The legislation provides the flexibility that, should the council wish to examine areas of public finance beyond those referenced in the Bill, it is able to do so. <BR /> <BR />Like with other independent fiscal institutions, the role of the Fiscal Council is expected to expand in time, and the Bill allows for that. Non-partisanship and independence are prerequisites for a successful independent fiscal institution. The Bill, therefore, has been drafted to provide the council with discretion to present its analysis with objectivity and free from the direction and control of others, including from a political perspective. That safeguards the operational independence of the council, which is one of the nine OECD principles.”
“The council will initially be established based on the nine broad principles that were recommended by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) for independent fiscal organisations. Those principles have been taken into account in the Bill. <BR /> <BR />The functions in the Bill provide the council with a very broad remit to assess and comment on our public finances and their sustainability. In line with the OECD principles, it will be for the council to determine its own work programme within that mandate. However, the Bill requires the council to publish a budget assessment report and a fiscal sustainability report each year. In addition, the council can publish other reports as it considers appropriate.”
“Its work has also been hugely impactful in supporting my predecessor's negotiations with the Treasury last year to agree the interim fiscal framework, which we built on in further negotiations with Treasury, ahead of the spending review earlier this month. <BR /> <BR />The Fiscal Council Bill, which, I hope, will gain the support of Members, will establish the body on a statutory basis and provide a legislative framework to underpin its work. That is in line with international best practice for fiscal institutions. The Bill will safeguard its independence, as well as ensure its continued access to information, both of which are vital to its role. <BR /> <BR />I will now consider the Bill's provisions in more detail. The Bill will put the council into statute as a body corporate.”
“I welcome the opportunity to move the Second Stage of the Fiscal Council Bill and open the debate on this important legislation. <BR /> <BR />Members will be aware that the Executive agreed to the formation of the Fiscal Council in March 2021, when it was established as a non-statutory body. That followed a commitment in 'New Decade, New Approach' to set up a body to bring greater transparency and independent scrutiny to the current and future state of our public finances. I am sure that Members will agree that, since its establishment, the Fiscal Council has made a significant impact in improving the transparency, scrutiny and understanding of our public finances.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle.”
“Further to that point of order, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker, the Member is speaking in a personal capacity. He knows fine well that I was in no way impugning the reputation of his Clerk or members of the Committee. I was pointing out an obvious fact, which is that radios work in both directions.”