John O'Dowd
Upper Bann · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“As I set out in response to the previous question, we have in place the vacant property rate relief scheme and the small business rate relief scheme, which are very successful. I set aside £10 million in the draft Budget for small business rate relief to be invested.”
“I am particularly keen to hear from those impacted by vacant commercial units and especially about how any phased increase can be implemented in a sustainable way that is fair, proportionate and sustainable within the tax system.”
“I outlined my intent to take that approach in my statement on 18 November, alongside the fact that reform of rating policy should support growth, make better use of property and ensure that the system is fair, proportionate and aligned with wider economic objectives.”
“The accelerator will operate alongside our highly successful Back in Business scheme, which has helped to bring over 100 vacant high street properties back into use since May 2024. Those issues have been the subject of considerable interest and comment in the Assembly, and it is right that we grasp the nettle now.”
“There are no circumstances in which a hard border would be good for the people of Ireland; it would not be good for anyone. Those who suggest that are being naive at best and dangerous at worst, in the sense of not understanding this society. <BR /> <BR />Rural communities along the border are one and the same.”
“This announcement represents the next step in that. That said, I also put on record my intention to strengthen support for small businesses. In that vein, £10 million has been set aside in the draft Budget to broaden the impact of the small business rate relief scheme in order to increase the number of businesses that can benefit from it.…”
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“Mr Lyttle's private Member's Bill may well be the solution to that, although I never judge any legislation until I have read it clause by clause. I await his legislation. That may be the answer to the equation before us, but I fully support the principle of removing the exemption.”
“The point that I am trying to make is not necessarily about educational attainment, which is higher in certain Catholic schools. It also has to be said that there are high levels of educational underattainment in the Catholic sector. More Catholic boys than Protestant boys leave school without proper qualifications. The figures for Protestant young people is higher percentage-wise, but it is higher for Catholic young people numbers-wise. I am talking about identity. The Catholic sector allowed the identity of Irishness to exist. As we move forward and our education system and our society evolve, that has to continue. That has to be an important part of any future education system. <BR /> <BR />On the stand-alone issue of the exemption, I support its removal. I do not know why it has taken so long for it to come about.”
“Give me one second, and I will. <BR /> <BR />That ethos has to continue as our education system evolves over time.”
“If it had not been for the Catholic sector, Irish culture and identity in this part of the island would have been educated away. In fairness to those who embedded the Catholic education system in our society, they defended the Irish culture and language and allowed young people to be Irish in their own land. That ethos has to continue.”
“It is not within the gift of the Department of Education to bring it forward. Legislation relating to it belongs to the Executive Office, which is responsible for equality legislation. The simple answer is that I do not know. It may be because of other legislative pressures at various times in the different Executives. <BR /> <BR />I am not suggesting that anybody has hinted at this today, but nobody should believe that Members and parties calling for the removal of the exemption in FETO is an indication that they are in favour of an education system that does not recognise the ethos of the Catholic sector. I am not talking about the religious ethos. It is not my job to defend any Church, but you have to look at the history of this state to understand the Catholic sector.”
“It is about protecting the rights of workers. Those who work in our schools should be under the same legislation as those in every other workplace. <BR /> <BR />It is worth noting that, in terms of the percentages of one denomination or another working in schools, the controlled sector is very varied. It would be a mistake to refer to it simply as the "Protestant sector". A variety of schools are encapsulated in it. You need to drill down deeper to see where people are working in a different background from the schools in which they were taught, but the figures are very poor. That needs to be examined further. The ending of the exemption will bring opportunities across our society for people to work in schools from different backgrounds than those from which they originally came.”
“I, too, support the motion and wonder why it has taken this length of time to bring forward legislation to bring this matter to a conclusion. During my time as Minister, I stated publicly that I supported the removal of the clause from the Fair Employment and Treatment Order. At that time, I also corresponded with the Executive Office on bringing forward legislation to remove it because it was no longer necessary, if it ever was necessary, in our education system.”
“I thank the Minister for her answers. I accept to a point that it is not the role of the Minister to negotiate in industrial disputes, but a meeting with the Minister, whether it is with the employer side or the trade union side, can bring a certain atmosphere to negotiations that allows them to be successful. Will the Minister reconsider her decision to not meet the UCU? I also urge her to reconsider her decision to not meet the students' unions, which are also an important voice in our further and higher education lobby.”
“I also wish Mrs Foster and her family all the best for the future. <BR /> <BR />As Mr O'Toole pointed out, there are both opportunities and challenges for businesses as a result of the protocol. Does the Minister agree that the alternative of a no-deal Brexit would have been devastating not only to the economy here but to the economies across these islands?”
“I do not know what that new Ireland will look like, but I firmly believe that we now have the mechanisms in place to ensure that it is a shared place, that the mistakes of the past can be learned from and that the generation of Mr Buckley and those in the Chamber who may be slightly greyer in the head will have a better time. <BR /> <BR />I will end on this note. A young republican said to me a number of years ago, "We will be the generation that lives for Ireland. No more should any generation die for Ireland". That has to be the ambition for us all.”
“The Government of Ireland Act was repealed as part of the Good Friday Agreement, and the Good Friday Agreement is why we all sit here today and why we share power today. Of course, we still have our differences. We have our differences about what the future will hold, but I am confident that the future will be different from the past, both in how the past was created and in how it was enforced. I believe that democracy, that much-used word, will create a new beginning on the island of Ireland, where Protestant and Dissenter can live alongside the Catholic and the nationalist and all of those other traditions that are coming forward and that a new Ireland will be a home place to us all.”
“However, we have to reflect on what those 100 years have meant to all who live on this island and, indeed, across these islands and on what the future will look like. Mr Buckley's comments on the future were important. He is the youngest unionist in the House, and we need a vision for the young people and the not-so-young people who live on this island. <BR /> <BR />Ireland was partitioned by the Government of Ireland Act. In my opinion, which many share, that was the wrong thing to do to Ireland. It created division, and it created a state that systematically discriminated against a large proportion of its citizens. It created laws such as the Special Powers Act that were the envy of the apartheid South African regime. That is not democracy. <BR /> <BR />We can look forward, I think, to a new future.”
“Quite clearly, there will be different perspectives on the events of 100 years ago, and it would be quite easy to rise to the bait of Mr Allister's usual angry performance.”
“Does the Minister have any indication of how much funding will come through the community renewal fund? Does he expect it to fully replace the EU structural fund?”
“Will the practice of hereditary grammar-school places that the Minister talked about change overnight? No. Unless we start to make change, however, it will never happen, and the working-class kids who are let down by academic selection will continue to be let down by academic selection. The people who support academic selection have shown no evidence today that it is a good policy. Those who oppose it have rhymed off list after list after list of why it is a bad policy, so let us remove it.”
“If those holding the power are being defended, we have to ask ourselves a serious question, which is this: if all the evidence tells us that academic selection is damaging our education system, damaging working-class communities and damaging non-selective schools, why protect those who are in power? Surely our job is to stand up for those without a voice. Surely our job is to ensure that everyone in society is given an equal opportunity. That is our role. Our role as legislators is to make change, so do not continue to suggest that there is no alternative. There is an alternative. The vast majority of post-primary schools currently use it, and it is a successful way of transferring children from primary schools to non-selective schools. <BR /> <BR />Will change happen overnight? No. Will social mobility improve overnight? No.”
“It had a policy of being against it right up until, I think, the 1980s, for the reason that it discriminated against working-class kids. As is the DUP's right, it changed its policy, but who is being defended? Those who benefit from the system are being defended. Those who benefit from academic selection are being defended, and the evidence shows us that, at the upper echelons of that, there are higher earners, those who are in positions of influence and those who are in positions of power. It is like Mr Stalford's comment that it would be a brave person who commits to change.”
“That socio-economic mix at Queen's University, Ulster University and elsewhere that the Minister talks about is as a result of non-selective schools producing high-quality education for their pupils. As long as the system is against it, however, the challenge will always be one for the non-selective sector. As long as we ignore the evidence, the non-selective sector will always face pressure. The non-selective sector has the majority of working-class kids in it, so who is being served by protecting academic selection? <BR /> <BR />Often, when we are discussing Brexit in the Chamber, the DUP will tell Sinn Féin, "You used to be opposed to the European Union". Guess what, folks: the DUP used to be opposed to academic selection.”
“There may be more doing the test, but there are more pupils about. I also know parents — we all hear this — whose children sit the test and have no intention of going near a grammar school, and they do not support academic selection. A school does not have to be a grammar school to be a good school. As a result of the entitlement framework and measures that were introduced by me and other Ministers, including Caitríona Ruane, we now have a non-selective post-primary sector that has the ability to deliver high-class and world-class education.”
“Exactly. The debate about grammar schools being destroyed is false. It is a distraction. The status of a grammar school is set out in legislation, completely separately from academic selection. It is about management type and is nothing to do with academic selection. Indeed, there is a non-selective grammar in my constituency. At the time that academic selection was done away with and unregulated tests were coming in, there were messages of doom about grammar schools coming to an end. A significant number of grammar schools have moved away from academic selection since then, and a significant number are planning to do so. It is slowly ebbing away.”
“Very much so. We always hear anecdotal stories about those who have done well, but they are conveniently quiet on those who have not done well. They are very quiet on that subject.”
“<BR /> <BR />I always use the following example. It does not directly match across, but it is a worthwhile example. Smoking was very popular, but — guess what? — the evidence told us that it caused significant harm; drinking and driving was OK 20 or 30 years ago, but — guess what? — the evidence told us that it did us harm; and — guess what? — the evidence tells us that academic selection is harming our young people. It is harming our education system, our economy and the well-being of our citizens, so let us do something about it.”
“Of course I agree that children's views have to be heard throughout this process. <BR /> <BR />The Member brings me on to the subject of public opinion on these matters. I was talking about parental support, or alleged parental support. If government policy were based on whether or not it was popular, we would be in difficult waters. I do not mean to pick on Mr Stalford, but he said that it would take a brave MLA for East Belfast to go around and tell people that things are changing. Guess what, folks? We are in the business of having to be brave. We are leaders. We do not have the luxury of standing up on this hill and saying, "There go my people" as they march past. We are supposed to lead them, and, when you look back through the years at the unpopular public policy decisions that people had to make, it was the right thing to do.”
“What is going on? What is at the heart of this? People tell me, quite rightly, that the transfer test is popular with parents. It may be popular with some parents. I am a parent, and my children will not sit the 11-plus. I care deeply about my children's education. I care deeply about that. People will say, "You have no right to take that choice away from someone else", but academic selection takes choice away from thousands of children every year, and we let that continue. We are denying —”
“Whatever happened in 1947, 1957, 1967 or after that, today's education system teaches one curriculum. A selective school teaches the same curriculum as a non-selective school. The teacher who teaches in that classroom was taught their profession at a teacher-training college here or elsewhere, but there is no grammar-school teacher-training college.”
“They go to the same training colleges as those who teach in non-selective schools. Why is that? It is very simple: they teach the same curriculum.”
“Indeed, the anecdotes that came from Mr Stalford would warm the cockles of your heart. However, it is not evidence on which to produce Government policy. It is certainly not evidence that should dictate the future of our children and the economy. Mr Nesbitt said that the best members are selected for a choir or football team. That is true, and that is why I was on neither. However, we are talking about the education system. We are talking about schools. What is the purpose of a school? Its purpose is to educate young people. I will always remember the principal who told me when I was Education Minister that, when she greets a pupil for the first time, the question that she asks herself is not whether they are clever but how. <BR /> <BR />We do not have different teacher training colleges for grammar-school teachers.”
“I will start where Mr O'Toole ended and, indeed, where my colleague Mr Sheehan started the debate. The motion and amendment call for evidence-based policy. I cannot think of any other area of public policy, within the Assembly's remit or beyond, where legislators are allowed to make legislation or continue a policy when all the evidence is stacked against it. I cannot think of any other area. I am happy to take an intervention if somebody can point me to such an area. However, here is the reality: in this debate of approximately one and a half hours, Members who support academic selection have not been able to produce or cite one academic, international or local report that supports academic selection. What does that say about their argument? <BR /> <BR />Anecdotal evidence is all very good. We have heard evidence about constituents.”
“Flattery will get you nowhere. <BR /> <BR />The Member claims that there are socio-economically mixed grammar schools in Belfast. The evidence does not stack up to back his claim.”
“For Members' information, Caitríona Ruane brought draft legislation to the Executive. It was blocked.”
“I thank the Minister. I have raised the matter with her several times to keep it in her head when it comes to the report's conclusions. Will the Minister agree that, if the only outworkings of the Belfast to Dublin high-speed rail link are for the benefit of the Belfast-Dublin economic corridor — the most recent report published by her Department said that it will get people into Belfast or Dublin more quickly — we will not provide economic opportunities to people who live along the railway line and that will be a totally missed opportunity?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. Does he agree that if we are to turn around the oil tanker that is the health service, we have to concentrate on primary as much as acute care, and perhaps more on primary? I understand that only five of the 17 multidisciplinary teams have been established. If we were to establish them, surely that would take significant pressure off GPs and acute services. <BR /> <BR />The Minister may be interested to know that, recently on social media in my area, patients were asking one another how often they had to phone their GPs to get through. The dubious winner was hitting redial 400 times to get through. Many of those patients will be seeing their GP simply to be directed to another service. It would appear to me that MDTs would be the answer to much of that problem.”
“I thank the Minister for his statement and answers thus far. Minister, I welcome the important cooperation across these islands and the particular focus on alcohol abuse. However, in order to deliver services, we need staff. What measures is the Minister taking to ensure that we have the staff and resources in place to focus not only on this piece of work but on other work that is important to the health service?”
“Minister, it is shocking that you have had to come to the House again to update it on further developments in this case. I have raised with you before my concerns about the amount of power that consultants have in our health service. Undoubtedly, daily, if not hourly, consultants save people's lives or change their lives for the better. However, in any institution, when someone is deemed to be or seems to be unaccountable, mistakes will be made. Today, we have listened to a litany of mistakes and potentially huge errors that will have a detrimental impact on people's lives as a result of the work of one man — one man. <BR /> <BR />When will the public inquiry start, and what input will affected patients have into its terms of reference?”
“I note that the DUP and the Ulster Unionist Party have said that they will not divide the House. I welcome that; that is good. It sends out a strong message. It also allows us to look at other areas where we can work together to ensure that the people we represent are not being ripped off.”
“However, we are also insisting that the opportunities that come about as a result of Brexit are exploited, and that, where there is an opportunity to create jobs, new businesses and prosperity for the people we serve, they have to be exploited. There can be no turning of blind eyes to them. They have to be exploited so that we can ensure that the people we represent are given good, well-paid jobs and have a future. Let us do that together. <BR /> <BR />In conclusion, the motion and the amendment are about protecting workers, families and businesses from being ripped off by large credit card companies that see an opportunity to make tens of millions of pounds, as a result of Brexit, on the backs of hard-working families and businesses. It is only right that the Assembly stands as one and supports the motion and the amendment.”
“Economic harm is being done to workers and families in Britain as a result of the added costs that they will face due to the credit card and debit card charge increases. You cannot blame the protocol for that. There will have to be an acceptance, in certain quarters, of where the problem is. When you accept what the problem is, you can try to solve it. <BR /> <BR />I stand by what I said at the start of the debate: we are prepared to work with any party in the Chamber to ensure that the pressures that have arisen as a result of Brexit, whether the protocol, or whatever else they may be, can be resolved.”
“No, I am not giving way any more. The bright lights of London and the popping of champagne corks in Westminster distracted the party opposite from the people it is in partnership with on this part of the island. That is what happened, and that is how we ended up where we are in relation to the protocol and Brexit, which are the one thing. <BR /> <BR />Imagine that there was no protocol and that we were dragged out of the EU customs union and single market etc as Britain has been. My colleague Caoimhe Archibald touched on that. Economic harm is being done to traders, businesses, workers and families in Britain as a result of Brexit, and you cannot blame the protocol for that.”
“I do not want to distract too much from the issue at hand — the credit card rip-off being governed by major financial institutions — but Members have to accept that something is wrong. This is not Finchley, and it is not Finglas. We have a constitution, by way of the Good Friday Agreement, and that is how we govern ourselves. When decisions are made or strategies developed elsewhere that do not meet the needs of the people on this island, particularly in relation to Brexit, the responsibility of political leaders on this island is to represent the people of this island. I stand by my comments that there was not engagement between unionism and Irish nationalism.”
“<BR /> <BR />Mr Muir quite rightly pulled up Mr Frew when Mr Frew said that there are many ways in which to leave the EU. There were many ways in which to leave the EU, but, unfortunately, you chose the hardest way. Your chief Brexiteer — the brigadier in charge of Brexit — Nigel Dodds, who was setting your strategy in Westminster, led you to a position in which we now have a protocol and extra credit card charges for many citizens, and in which, as Jemma Dolan pointed out, there is the potential for workers' rights to be lessened. All those things flow from one situation.”
“Yes, and that brings me on to my next point. During the Brexit debate, Members opposite spent far too long speaking to English nationalists rather than Irish nationalists. If they had spoken to Irish nationalists, they would have found friend and favour. The Brexit agenda that was set elsewhere was never designed for the island of Ireland. Regardless of your beliefs — whether you are unionist, nationalist, republican, other or whatever else — it was somebody else's agenda, to which some people here foolishly hitched their wagon. We now have the result of that, and Brexit will cost consumers here more. The protocol and Brexit are the one thing. The protocol does not cover the services issues being discussed, but it is there as a result of Brexit.”
“It is therefore unfair to suggest that there is a deafness on this side of the House to genuine concerns that are being raised in some quarters.”
“We have seen examples of that throughout the transition period and, indeed, throughout the Brexit debate, where there have been significant enough rumours, suggestions and facts to show that many bet on hedge funds and made tens of millions of pounds out of Brexit. Here come two more significant financial institutions that think, "We will have a bit of that". <BR /> <BR />Some of the contributions to the debate, particularly those from the DUP Members opposite, can be summed up as follows: that our side of the House does not care about the protocol. That is not true. It simply is not true. We are prepared to work with anyone in or beyond the Chamber to ensure that we have a smooth running of the protocol and that those areas that need to be challenged or changed can be. We will support others in doing that work.”
“<BR /> <BR />In proposing the motion, Caoimhe Archibald pointed out that, since the EU acted in 2017 to protect consumers through interchange fee regulations, it is estimated that €2·6 billion of savings have been made by merchants and businesses across the EU. That is worth noting. Savings in the UK are somewhere in the region of £480 million a year. <BR /> <BR />These are all our constituents who will be asked to pay extra fees. For what exactly, nobody knows. It would appear, certainly to me as an onlooker, that those major financial institutions have taken the opportunity of the UK leaving the EU to earn more money.”
“I rise to wind on the motion and on the amendment, which we are accepting. A clear message needs to be sent out to all those who have power to change what is planned here. They should change it. We are particularly speaking to Governments, whether they be the Government in the UK, in Brussels, or wherever they may be. We are also particularly speaking to MasterCard and Visa, which have said that they will put their hands into the pockets of consumers and small businesses and take out their hard-earned money. Those institutions are hugely profitable. It is not as if they have hit hard times or that things are difficult for them.”
“One of the ways that our society and this institution can face the challenges of Brexit, COVID and economic recovery is through North/South and east-west cooperation, and, over the last 24 or 48 hours, we have heard a number of reasons why your party has not been turning up at North/South ministerial meetings. Mr Lyons has just told us that it is for diary reasons. Yesterday, the deputy leader of your party told us that it was in opposition to the protocol. Will you assure this House and others that your party will not use North/South cooperation in your campaign against the protocol?”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I ask the Member to withdraw that comment about Sinn Féin being involved in any lawbreaking.”
“On economic support for businesses, Minister, many businesses have found it difficult, if not impossible, to wade their way through the different schemes in your Department. Is your Department considering expanding or changing the criteria of those schemes to ensure that as many businesses as possible receive support?”
“On the subject of weddings, you all know Fra McCann: he got married yesterday to his lifelong partner, Janette. I think that he waited until the lockdown because he did not want to buy any of us a dinner, but that is a different matter.”
“I thank the Minister for her answer and welcome her plans for social and affordable housing. I also thank her for agreeing to meet me on housing issues in north Lurgan and in rural areas in my constituency. The waiting list continues to grow. Will the Minister undertake to keep up the pressure on the Housing Executive and social housing providers to ensure that housing is provided in areas of most need?”