John O'Dowd
Upper Bann · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“As I set out in response to the previous question, we have in place the vacant property rate relief scheme and the small business rate relief scheme, which are very successful. I set aside £10 million in the draft Budget for small business rate relief to be invested.”
“I am particularly keen to hear from those impacted by vacant commercial units and especially about how any phased increase can be implemented in a sustainable way that is fair, proportionate and sustainable within the tax system.”
“I outlined my intent to take that approach in my statement on 18 November, alongside the fact that reform of rating policy should support growth, make better use of property and ensure that the system is fair, proportionate and aligned with wider economic objectives.”
“The accelerator will operate alongside our highly successful Back in Business scheme, which has helped to bring over 100 vacant high street properties back into use since May 2024. Those issues have been the subject of considerable interest and comment in the Assembly, and it is right that we grasp the nettle now.”
“There are no circumstances in which a hard border would be good for the people of Ireland; it would not be good for anyone. Those who suggest that are being naive at best and dangerous at worst, in the sense of not understanding this society. <BR /> <BR />Rural communities along the border are one and the same.”
“This announcement represents the next step in that. That said, I also put on record my intention to strengthen support for small businesses. In that vein, £10 million has been set aside in the draft Budget to broaden the impact of the small business rate relief scheme in order to increase the number of businesses that can benefit from it.…”
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“Belfast city has quite a good public transport system, even in comparison with other cities. I am sure that Members will be able to jump up with examples of cities that are much better than Belfast. I have always said that, when it is available to you, you should use public transport. If you are driving into Belfast city centre to park your car up all day in a car park and then leave at around 5.00 pm to drive out of Belfast city centre again, you are part of the congestion problem. That is the reality of the situation. I perfectly understand why healthcare workers, domiciliary care workers and others who have to travel about the city to do their job would not use public transport. Each person has to ask themselves this question: why am I using my private car?”
“As I said, I think that people are sometimes waiting for the time that the Minister will be able to announce an answer. I do not have an engineering answer, because it does not exist. The answer is public transport.”
“We are also returning to pre-COVID levels of traffic in the city centre. All those things have combined. If someone is waiting for a magical engineering solution to what is happening in Belfast, they will find that there will not be one, because it is not available. <BR /> <BR />What have we done? We have invested a significant amount of money in Belfast Grand Central station, which has a state-of-the-art rail and bus service. I appeal to people to use it. People should come into Belfast on public transport, enjoy their shopping or business trip, or whatever it may be, and leave again in comfort on our public transport systems. Why add to the stress and tension that are caused by the congestion that you will face if you are in a private vehicle?”
“I do. It is not a case of trying to blame someone else or denying responsibility for the situation. I am aware of my responsibilities in ensuring that Belfast city centre has a traffic flow system that works, but I can do that only to a certain degree. As one of my officials said on the radio this morning, we cannot go round knocking down buildings and building new roads. Those are not options, so very limited engineering options are left to us in Belfast city centre. We are reviewing traffic lights and how they are used and timed. I mentioned the yellow box junctions and the appeal to drivers not to block them. We will look at the Grosvenor Road left-hand turn. That was put in place to protect pedestrians, particularly the thousands of people who are now coming out of Grand Central station and using public transport into the city.”
“I am facing criticism for that decision, but that is the nature of the game, and I will continue with that process. The continued use of bus lanes is vital. <BR /> <BR />One of the challenges that we faced in the city on Wednesday night, particularly around Shaftesbury Square, was caused by drivers blocking the yellow box junctions, which caused huge delays in the area and disrupted a significant number of Translink services. I appeal to drivers to not block the yellow box junctions. They are there for a reason, and while I can understand the frustration that builds up, once you block a box junction, you will have a negative impact on traffic in a significant part of the city and on public transport. We have asked the PSNI to specifically monitor yellow box junctions and to take appropriate action if they are being abused.”
“I have not directly engaged with the retail sector, but my officials are engaging with Belfast City Council. The promotion of the work that we do in cooperation with Belfast City Council is important. The Chair of the Committee has talked about using the retail sector as a voice for the city, and I have no difficulty with doing that. As I said earlier, Belfast city centre is experiencing so much traffic because Belfast city centre is doing very well, and long may it continue. I will do everything within my power to assist it in continuing to prosper going into the future. <BR /> <BR />The Member will recall that I am going through the legislative process to allow taxis to use certain bus lanes. I have to say that it is not a universally popular decision.”
“We have considered a number of those options. Unfortunately, the resources available to my Department and Translink are extremely limited. However, the more people who use public transport, the more opportunity there is for us to lower the fares because more revenue will come into the public transport system. The park-and-ride services around the ring of Belfast have been increased to every 15 minutes. <BR /> <BR />I accept that the private car is a very handy way to travel. It is very comfortable, you are in your own space, and all of that. The private car has been successful for a reason, and it will form part of our transport system in the future, although it will be powered by a different fuel. If you are coming into Belfast city centre, at this stage of the year in particular, you are going to face congestion.”
“People should use public transport where they can. <BR /> <BR />The Member used a very good example; she came from Fermanagh, where there is no rail service, but she drove to the rail connection. Thousands of people are doing that daily. They are using park-and-rides. They drive a certain part of the journey, park up and get on a bus. Other people drive a certain part of the journey and get on a train. Where you can, use public transport and come in and enjoy Belfast city centre.”
“Up until last week, the group was meeting daily and is now probably meeting weekly, but I will provide the Member with details of how often the group is meeting. It is a strategic group. One of the important things to come from the strategic group is communication with others and the people whom the Member mentioned. I am not sure of the group's membership, but there are key strategic players that should be kept informed of developments when messages are sent out. Anyone who has avenues to engage with and message the public should send out the messages that we have heard not only from my Department but on the airwaves. Independent experts also say the same thing: Belfast is over-congested. There is nowhere else to build roads, and we should not build more roads in the city centre because it will only create more traffic.”
“I therefore appeal to people, where possible, to use public transport to come into the city to enjoy the thriving businesses and nightlife that Belfast city centre offers.”
“All traffic works, apart from some that are going on around Belfast Grand Central station, have been stopped; they were stopped on 25 November. In fact, the work on the Sydenham bypass stopped a week before that because the weather conditions were not suitable for those works to go ahead. All major traffic works around the city have stopped, as they have in other towns, in order to allow for the Christmas shopping spree. <BR /> <BR />The fact remains that there are too many cars in too limited a space. Each of us has to make a decision as to how we deal with that. If you travel into Belfast city centre using a car, you should expect there to be congestion, and doing so leads to congestion for other people as well.”
“There were particular incidents on Thursday night that brought a significant delay to traffic in Belfast city centre. There was an accident on the M1, accidents on the M2, traffic light failures on the Ormeau Road and a major public event in the SSE Arena. Those incidents came together to cause significant traffic congestion in the city. There was also very poor weather. Yes, those incidents caused significant congestion, but I caution Members who represent Belfast against sending out the message that Belfast is in crisis or that it is closed for business. Belfast is not in crisis and it is not closed for business. One of the reasons that there is so much traffic on the road is that Belfast is a very successful and busy city. Long may it remain so. I have taken the actions that I can within the powers that I have to ease that congestion.”
“I appeal to motorists to consider what other options they can take to avoid congestion, such as public transport, park-and-rides, active travel or, if possible, planning their journey so that they use an alternative route or avoid peak times. <BR /> <BR />I have established a strategic oversight group comprising the Department for Infrastructure, Belfast City Council, the PSNI and Translink to consider what more can be done to ease congestion at peak times while work is ongoing. Mitigating the congestion issue will take a huge collective approach, with everyone considering how they can play a part to help everyone share the limited road space available in a smarter way.”
“I accept that there are delays and that journeys through the city centre by car are taking longer than normal while work is ongoing. That is why I previously made a statement to the Assembly to warn about and raise awareness of what was to come. The bigger, more general issue is that there are too many cars on the road and the network has limited resilience to cope with incidents such as those that occurred last Thursday evening, which coincided with peak traffic periods. Mitigating the congestion issue will take a huge collective approach, with everyone considering how they can play a part to help everyone to better share the limited road space available in a smarter way.”
“I assure Members that I am doing my best to target more investment on rural roads to ensure that rural communities are not left behind because of poorer road conditions than those faced by others who live elsewhere. <BR /> <BR />Mr McGrath was right: all emails receive a standard response. There is a reason for that: 95% of road traffic collisions are caused by human error. That is the reality of the situation. If there is a traffic collision, the condition of the road will be taken into account as part of the investigation, and my officials cooperate with the PSNI on those investigations. However, the harsh reality for us all is that 95% of accidents are caused by human error.”
“I am limited in what I can say because protocol dictates that the report goes first to the Public Accounts Committee. My Department can work with the Audit Office and the Public Accounts Committee to bring the recommendations in the report to fruition. I am already looking at increasing the fees for opening roads for utilities, partly because they have not been increased since 2011. Also, the increase in fees will allow me to recruit more staff and have more inspectors, which, in turn, will ensure that roads are repaired and reinstated properly and we can inspect more. Roads are not allowed to be reopened within 12 months of resurfacing unless there is an emergency, such as a leak, but that is the general rule.”
“I am sure that Members will tell me that all areas of South Down are scenic, but I think particularly of areas such as Newry, Kilkeel, Newcastle and Downpatrick, where active travel proposals have been set out. Those will not only be of huge benefit to the local community but will bring tourism potential. We engaged with our colleagues on a number of travel linkages. I mentioned the Narrow Water bridge, which will connect North and South and likely attract locals and tourists from the Carlingford greenway to Warrenpoint and Newry. <BR /> <BR />One of my colleagues from the Department is present in the Chamber. A note will be taken of specific roads that were mentioned, and we will respond directly to Members about them. <BR /> <BR />I will respond to Members comments about the Audit Office report on utilities, which was published today.”
“The closure of roads or single-lane traffic can also cause challenges for road users, but my team has to ensure the safety of road workers. Ms Forsythe previously mentioned her concerns that roadworks in South Down were not being properly publicised, but I assure her that, where significant delays may occur, my Department publishes notifications of current and upcoming roadworks on its TrafficWatchNI website, which allows people to choose alternative routes for their journeys. <BR /> <BR />I draw Members' attention to my Department's recently launched consultation on the future delivery of active travel through the active travel delivery plan, which will be of huge benefit to the scenic areas of South Down.”
“To that end, I allocated £101·5 million to capital structural maintenance, which includes resurfacing, surface dressing, structural drainage and verge stabilisation. That figure includes £12·5 million of the £19 million that I secured in October monitoring for essential structural road maintenance and street lighting work. I secured an additional £1 million of resource funding from the October monitoring round that I have directed to gully clearance. The clearing of gullies is an issue across all constituencies, and South Down is no different. As in previous years, the total capital funding for southern division, which includes South Down, is significant and is likely to deliver over £25 million in structural investment in this financial year. <BR /> <BR />Road maintenance activity presents challenges.”
“In June, I, along with the Irish Government, announced the start of the construction of the Narrow Water bridge, which is valued at around €100 million. That project is being led and funded by the Irish Government through the Shared Island Fund. It is a key piece of infrastructure that will connect North and South and create active travel links to the centre of Warrenpoint and Newry, increasing tourist numbers from the Carlingford greenway. In total, the estimated value of ongoing work to develop major projects is around £350 million. When those projects are delivered, they will encourage economic growth in South Down. <BR /> <BR />Turning to road maintenance, the Executive agreed a 2024 Budget, and I made best use of the funding from that to target road surfacing.”
“Members mentioned the Ballynahinch bypass, which lies north of the boundary of the new South Down constituency and will bring substantial benefits to County Down. Development work on that project, valued at between £50 million and £60 million, although largely complete, is currently paused. I assure Members, however, that I am actively considering the progression of the project. I hope to make an announcement in due course. <BR /> <BR />In July, I announced in the House that the A1 junction phase 2 improvements would proceed to procurement stage. Those are valued at between £120 million and £130 million. Our outline business case was recently approved by the Department of Finance, and I am moving to commence the procurement of that project.”
“I also recognise the inconvenience caused by the temporary closure of one lane of the Kilkeel Road in Hilltown due to verge slippage, which, again, was caused by severe weather in late 2023. The Member will be aware of the scale and complexity of the work required at the Kilkeel Road. It is significant, which means that it will take time to deliver a safe and cost-effective scheme. My Department will continue to work hard to open the road to two-way traffic as soon as possible. <BR /> <BR />On a positive note, my Department is developing two major projects in the area. One is the Newry southern relief road, which is valued at between £110 million and £130 million. That is being progressed as part of the Belfast region city deal, which will provide a strategic link between the Belfast to Dublin corridor and the A2 Warrenpoint Road.”
“I can, however, notify Members that Forest Service wishes to coordinate tree works on the embankment slope to allow us to reopen the road to two lanes. If Forest Service is not in a position to move onto that site in the near future, however, I will ask that the road be reopened to two lanes. We want to work in cooperation with other agencies, but, if we can open the lanes without the work that Forest Service needs to carry out, we need to move towards doing that.”
“Due to the scale and complexity of the work that is required, we needed to obtain the necessary environmental improvements. Those have now been obtained, which allows us to carry out the work.”
“Without funding, new strategic roads to improve safety and help economic improvement will not get built, and roads will continue to deteriorate. My Department, like others, has been operating in a difficult financial environment. We hope against hope that we are moving out of an austerity period and will be able to stabilise our budgets as we move forward. We prepare and plan for that scenario. <BR /> <BR />I recognise the inconvenience with the A2 Shore Road in Rostrevor, which is due to a landslide that occurred in late 2023. Since it occurred, my officials have been engaging with DAERA, the Forest Service and NIEA to bring forward an appropriate, safe and sustainable solution to the issue. I recently visited the location to see it for myself.”
“First, I thank Ms Forsythe for securing this important debate on the need for significant road works in South Down, and I thank the other Members for contributing to it. I have listened intently to the comments and issues that were raised and have heard Members' concerns about the road network in South Down and the need for further investment and improvements. <BR /> <BR />Investing in new roads and maintaining roads are critical to ensure the safe movement of people and goods to allow the growth of our economy, whether rural or urban. I stress that the North can have whatever quality of road network that it wants, but it needs to be funded. In fairness, a number of Members touched on the need for funding to upgrade our road network.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.”
“With regard to further discussions with the incoming Minister for Transport in the South, I will continue to engage on how both jurisdictions support aligned rail fares moving forward. Members will appreciate that the Dublin Government have quite a surplus to hand and can spend funds on matters that the Executive cannot at this stage, but I always think that you have to look for solutions rather than at the problems. Thank you.”
“A number of feasibility studies are ongoing, as has been mentioned, that are funded by the Union connectivity development fund. They include the reopening of the Antrim to Lisburn line, with a link to Belfast International Airport; the Armagh to Portadown line; the electrification of the Belfast line to the border; and the Portadown to Derry line. <BR /> <BR />The main thrust of today's motion is about the regularisation of train fares between both jurisdictions. I assure Members that I will continue to explore all avenues to ensure that Translink is properly subsidised by the Executive, allowing it to keep train fares as low as possible, including cross-border rail fares.”
“<BR /> <BR />The flagship Enterprise service is a very visible and well-known symbol of North/South cooperation, and the replacement programme is a key priority for both Governments. I certainly hope it is a priority for the next Government as well — I do not doubt that it will be. The programme will significantly improve accessibility between the two largest cities on the island, with faster journey times and an increased number of services. The funding of the programme, under the PEACE PLUS programme and from both Governments, demonstrates the positive impact that cooperation has in meeting our shared goals for a cleaner, greener, interconnected, all-island future. <BR /> <BR />I assure Members that, as we move forward, I will continue to progress the all-island rail review.”
“Procurement has also started on a new, faster and more sustainable Enterprise train fleet for the Dublin to Belfast route, with funding of €25 million — £20 million — provided by the Government of Ireland, through the Shared Island Fund and the Irish Department of Transport. The hourly service represents the most significant expansion of services on the route in over a quarter of a century. That is another boost for public transport and the economy, and it will improve not only linkages between the two cities but connections along the entire North/South rail corridor. An expanded and improved rail network offers opportunities to drive jobs and growth, stimulate developments in regeneration and boost access to services and education. It will also help decarbonise transport and encourage a behavioural shift to public transport.”
“I note the Member's comments. The Member will also understand that, as a guardian of public finances, I have to be able to prove value for money when spending public funds. I am looking to establish the proof that there is value for public funds in extending the rail line to Fermanagh. I can assure the Member that she is pushing at an open door with me on the matter. <BR /> <BR />On improvements to the Enterprise service, work to implement the rail review has started to progress already on rail services on the island and the development towards the review's vision. That includes an increase to the hourly train service between Dublin and Belfast, which commenced in October.”
“I accept Diana Armstrong's point that when rural communities look at Belfast and see £344 million being spent, they rightly ask, "What's the difference?". In this case, the business case for Grand Central station proved to be value for money, but the current estimated business case for the Enniskillen connection does not represent value for public funds. However, in a recent meeting with a delegation from Omagh and Fermanagh District Council, I made a commitment to them that, as part of the Fermanagh transport plans, if new information comes to light, I will review that decision ahead of the 10-year time frame that has been built into the review. It is not a closed chapter; it is definitely open and will be returned to again if and when new evidence comes to light. I have committed to working with the council on that.”
“The constituency's representatives quite rightly made that point today. As Members will know, following the public consultation on the review report last year, I asked the report's authors to further consider the viability of rail services to Fermanagh. That review included consideration of future population growth; potential demand and journey times; tourism; and various potential corridors through Enniskillen, including to Omagh, Belfast, Dublin, Derry, Sligo, Monaghan and Cavan. A new rail line did not appear to stimulate sufficient demand to support rail services in the time frame of the review, however. As has been mentioned, the cost of building a 40-kilometre single-track line between Enniskillen and Omagh has been estimated at £335 million.”
“The final review report includes 32 recommendations, which, if delivered in full, will transform rail services across the island through such improvements as new and reopened rail routes, higher-speed trains, increased frequency and additional capacity, thereby connecting many more communities to the rail network. For the North, it will see a decarbonised rail network; new rail lines from Portadown to Armagh, Lisburn to Antrim, Belfast to Newry and Portadown to Derry; new cross-border routes from Portadown to Mullingar and Derry to Letterkenny; new and improved rail connections to our airports; increased frequency; and faster journey times. <BR /> <BR />I understand that many people who live in Fermanagh will be disappointed that a new rail line from Enniskillen was not included in that list of interventions.”
“I hope to be able to confirm that before the Christmas break, although I may not be able to do so until early in the new year. <BR /> <BR />The projects that I have mentioned are examples of the significant investment that my Department is making to help achieve a modal shift from car to bus or rail services. An effective public transport network is vital for the economic, social and environmental well-being of society. <BR /> <BR />Earlier this year, in July, in partnership with Minister Ryan, I published the all-island strategic rail review. It was the first strategic rail review of its kind on the island of Ireland.”
“Work on the feasibility of extending the route to Glengormley and Carryduff has been finalised, and I commissioned work on the delivery options that could be implemented, utilising the £35 million funding envelope from the Belfast region city deal. The outline business case is being finalised in line with the feasibility reports and delivery options. Subject to approval of the outline business case, it is proposed that the detailed design process be initiated to implement the proposals. I welcome the £35 million contribution from the Belfast region city deal and recognise that significant investment will bring enhancements to the city centre and the wider public transport network and assist in tackling the current and ongoing traffic congestion in Belfast city centre. It is another public transport option for people to use.”
“Yes, they can. <BR /> <BR />The budget allocation for the Coleraine to Derry phase 3 project is additional to the £5·3 million that has already been spent on the project. That funding will allow Translink to progress the project as planned and seeks to ensure investment in public transport across the entire region. In this financial year alone, Translink has been allocated a budget of almost £320 million, which is about 25% of the total non-ring-fenced budget that is available to the entire Department. <BR /> <BR />I will turn now to other projects. The estimated cost for the north Belfast to south Belfast Glider route is in the range of £142 million to £148 million. Although £35 million of the funding has been secured through the Belfast region city deal, a considerable shortfall of £110 million remains.”
“I did not catch all of the Member's point. Is he asking whether they can use their concessionary pass when using cross-border services?”
“I have seen significant improvements in public transport here in recent years, which I believe reflect our ambitions for public transport. Many Members have mentioned the recently opened Grand Central station, and we have also refurbished York Street station. I fully recognise the need to address regional imbalance and better connect our communities, including those in the north-west. This year, I have, therefore, ring-fenced £4·7 million of funding in my budget to ensure that the Coleraine to Derry phase 3 project proceeds as quickly as possible.”
“That is why the Department provides a concessionary fare scheme and why, despite the very challenging financial environment, I made the decision to protect the scheme and to keep the age of eligibility for the scheme at 60, enabling older people to live active, healthier and independent lives and boosting the local economy. <BR /> <BR />As a number of Members have pointed out, it is important to recognise that, in the South, to qualify for an older person's pass, a person must be aged 66 or over. When we talk about alignment between North and South, it is important to recognise that, in some respects, our passengers are better off than their peers south of the border. That is not just in relation to concessionary fares.”
“<BR /> <BR />It is worth pointing out that older people and people with disabilities can currently avail themselves of significantly discounted and free concessionary travel on Translink services, which are funded by my Department in the region of £47 million annually. The motion refers to the role that affordable transport plays in promoting social mobility, but it is not only about social mobility. Making public transport affordable is also about tackling social exclusion and ensuring that the most vulnerable people in our society can be part of it.”
“This reversed my decision to freeze fares before the Assembly fell, when I recognised the need to maintain lower public transport fares moving forward. Following that statement from the British Government, Translink increased fares in March 2023 by an average of approximately 7% across its services. Those were the first fare increases in five years. Translink subsequently standardised rail fares in November 2023 to resolve some anomalies and to simplify the fare structure. In January 2024, again in the absence of local Ministers, my Department's permanent secretary continued with the Secretary of State's request to again increase transport fares, with an average rise of 8%.”
“Online discounts still show a difference in price, with a return journey from Belfast to Dublin available for as low as £29·98 from Translink while the same ticket is available for approximately £23·30 from Irish Rail. Translink has made efforts to ensure that all rail lines offer a reasonably equitable fare structure. However, if Translink were to emulate the reductions provided in the South, it would have a major impact on the sustainability of delivering public transport services elsewhere. <BR /> <BR />Since 2010, Translink fares have increased by some 27%, which is significantly less than inflation over the same period, which is 44%. In November 2022, the then Secretary of State set out what steps would need to be taken to improve Translink's sustainability through uprating Translink fares.”
“A single ticket from Belfast to Dublin would be the same price when issued by Translink, £33, but, with the discount, this falls to £26·43 for Irish Rail customers. A single ticket from Newry to Dublin would have been cheaper with Translink at £21·50 compared with £23·91 with Irish Rail, but the 20% discount reduces that to £19·13. <BR /> <BR />As Members will know, the Department has been operating in a very difficult financial environment for a number of years and will continue to engage and support public transport where and when it can. However, Translink, in conjunction with Irish Rail, has amended the rail fares on offer and now provides a more flexible online fare. This enables customers to benefit from online prices up to 90 minutes before the train departs, compared with the 72-hour cut-off currently in place.”
“I thank the Members who tabled the motion. It is a very important topic, and it has been a useful debate. By way of background information, the current Enterprise service was introduced in 1997, and, for most of this time, the fares offered by NI Railways have generally been lower than those offered by Irish Rail. Various considerations need to be taken into account when setting fares for the Enterprise cross-border service, not least the local fares offered by both rail companies and the received levels of government funding. Translink and Irish Rail are subsidised in different ways. As Members have noted, in April 2022, the Irish Government reduced fares on all public transport, including Irish Rail, by 20%. It is worth highlighting the impact that this 20% reduction has had on standard fares compared with those of NI Railways.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.”
“As I have just announced, I have invested £19·5 million — half of the capital allocation that I was given — in NI Water, because I accept that there are resource and capital challenges for NI Water, as there are with all public services. That investment will help to alleviate the pressures that it has been facing in the delivery of homes, matters relating to the environment and other matters that NI Water has to take into consideration.”
“NI Water will be remaining public. There has been no move away from that, and there will not be during my term in this office. I am aware that the Finance Minister is exploring all options in relation to funding, moving forward. Yes, NI Water requires additional funds, as do all public services, moving forward. I will work closely with the Finance Minister on identifying how we get funding to drive our public services forward.”
“It applies to both. I have a lot of correspondence from developers regarding the development of businesses, hotels or whatever it may be, who are concerned that there may be waste water infrastructure constraints that will hold back their developments. As I said to Mrs Erskine, we all have to be in problem-solving mode. That includes myself, NI Water, developers and everyone else. NI Water is clear that there should be as early engagement as possible with it in relation to any planning that is being brought forward, and that early engagement has to include how we resolve the problem.”