Edwin Poots
South Belfast · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I call Mr Eóin Tennyson. Again, this is Mr Tennyson's first opportunity to speak as a private Member, so I remind the House that it is convention that a maiden speech be made without interruption. However, if you choose to express views that provoke an interruption, you are likely to forfeit that protection.”
“Sorry — Ms Armstrong. My apologies. <BR /> <BR />That the Assembly could, in some way, get that money out when it is a UK Government responsibility. The UK Government have distributed it directly in Scotland and Wales, not through the Welsh Parliament and not through the Scottish Parliament.”
“I have not got time; I am sorry. <BR /> <BR />Ursula von der Leyen, who was in the Republic last week, made some of the most ridiculous claims about the British Government, who have supported Ukraine in a way that no other Government in Europe have and who have never engaged in the activity that was suggested by Ursula von der Leyen.”
“Today, a lot of statements have been made but there has not been a lot of fact behind a lot of what has been said. We have Michelle O'Neill, who walked out of her role as Health Minister — not for six months but for three years — and abandoned her position when we had Bengoa and there were all the problems with nursing that led to the str…”
“I need to deal with the issues first. <BR /> <BR />He referred to the Budget that he produced. No party supported that Budget. The Alliance Party did not support it, because it did not cover policing and prisons. Infrastructure did not support it, because it would not allow it to do the basics of what had to be done.”
“We had a circumstance where Sinn Féin repeated, month after month after month, that there were hundreds of millions to give to the public when that did not exist and when, in reality, Minister Murphy was racking up debt that will roll into next year, which will ensure that that will be a difficult financial year.”
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“It, effectively, requires us to deliver that transition to a greener, more sustainable economy and environment in a balanced way in which everyone is adequately supported. The delivery of a just transition is at the heart of the evidence that informs the original targets in my Bill. A fundamental aspect in ensuring a just transition is to make sure that the targets are not only ambitious and challenging but achievable. The targets in my Bill were based on the Climate Change Committee's balanced pathway and were set at a level that could be achieved through a just transition. <BR /> <BR />When farmers read the papers at the weekend or on Thursday, they will be greatly encouraged by the debate today. Ms Bailey announced that they will not have to cut livestock by 80%. That is great news for the farmers.”
“We already touched on some issues around just transition during the debate on the group 2 amendments on proposals and policies. There is a crossover with some of the amendments in this group, and some of my points will be similar to those that I raised during last week's debate. However, all the points are worth making. An important outcome of effective climate change legislation and effective legislation more generally is the delivery of results in a manner that ensures fairness and equality and that encourages the constructive engagement and coordination of approaches where possible. The targets in my Bill were originally based on evidence and a balanced pathway that can deliver a meaningful just transition. A lot of people have used the term "just transition" loosely.”
“It is about cleaning up our environment and sending out a message that buying a bag, using it once and throwing it away is not acceptable in society, because it causes harm to the environment, to the community and to wildlife and sea life. <BR /> <BR />This is not forcing individuals to do anything. Let us clean up our act, and let us all get behind cleaning up our act.”
“We will not achieve net zero with it, but continuing to drive down the use of bags will certainly be a step towards achieving more than 82%. <BR /> <BR />I was struck by what Mr Dickson said about the plastic pollution in our seas. That is one of the issues. I suspect that not properly managing our waste and, consequently, exporting it has potentially led to much of it ending up in our seas. Unscrupulous companies may have indicated that they were taking material to China, but it may well have never seen China, because there was a cost to offloading it there. There was no cost to offloading it in the sea when nobody was looking. <BR /> <BR />We all need to take our responsibilities seriously. I hope that Mr Allister will join us in taking those responsibilities seriously. This is not about punishing individuals.”
“I know that because I see what is used in our home. If you buy 10 or 12 bags at 25p, you are looking at £2·50 or £3 per year, which is a cost of 5p or 6p per week. I do not, therefore, accept the argument that it will cause people hardship. It will cause people hardship only if they continually throw away bags, and we do not want them to do that. If it is punitive, it is because it is self-punitive, not because it has been imposed on them by the House. I encourage people to recognise that. <BR /> <BR />Further steps need to be taken to further reduce the number of bags. When it was introduced by Minister Durkan — I always give him credit for it — there were 300 million bags in use. That reduced to around 56 million, but there are still 56 million bags in use. That sounds close to 82% to me, so this is the next step towards net zero.”
“Thank you to the Members who raised issues and to the House for its significant support of the motion that I have proposed today. <BR /> <BR />Mr Durkan raised the issue that less money might come in as a consequence of the carrier bag tax. It would be good news if that were the case. Mrs Barton thought that more money might come in. The truth is that we do not know. I anticipate that fewer bags will be acquired, albeit, as Mr Allister points out, the bags will be five times as expensive. If that leads to an 80% reduction, we will bring in a similar amount of money. If it leads to a greater reduction, we will bring in less money. That is, ultimately, what I want. <BR /> <BR />I do not want, as Mr Allister points out, to cause hardship to any family. The truth is that 10 or 12 bags would last you for the year.”
“For anyone who thinks that we are going to go along mildly, ignore all that, roll over and accept it — sorry, that will not happen. People need to wake up to that reality.”
“The relevant Minister stated in Parliament that he was aware of over 200 companies that have indicated they will not supply Northern Ireland. There could be many other smaller businesses. For many people, the problem is that the checks are so laborious. For many importers, the checks are laborious. It is easier to import from the USA and China than it is to import from Scotland, which is less than 20 miles away. We have people who can import trees from Latvia but not from Lancashire, which is entirely illogical. We are planting Her Majesty's canopy to celebrate the platinum jubilee and the 70 years of service that Her Majesty has given. It is more than likely that the trees will have to be imported from a third country rather than planting trees that have been grown in Her Majesty's United Kingdom. That is how perverse the protocol is.”
“Legal advice is privileged and, therefore, does not have to become public knowledge. However, I am happy to indicate that the legal advice discussed extensively issues around the Belfast Agreement and our role to ensure the implementation of that agreement. I note that some Members of the House who previously stood up as the biggest defenders of the Belfast Agreement appear, on this occasion, to think that another agreement supersedes the Belfast Agreement and, therefore, we should just ignore it.”
“We should all be about that, not about raining down political solutions that cause harm to the political process.”
“The Member is right: I have a grievance about that, which I am well entitled to have. The grievance is shared by hundreds of thousands of people across this country, so it is a genuine grievance. I do not believe that we are silenced, and that will be demonstrated over the weeks and months that lie ahead. We are pressing hard to get an acceptable outcome. We may have different ideas about how we go about challenging the protocol, but, given that no unionist party supports the current circumstances, nationalism would do well to reflect on that and recognise the need to work with its neighbours to get an outcome that is good for unionists, nationalists and others, and is good for this country as it continues to thrive and grow its economy.”
“I am not sure, but the Member may draw that conclusion if he so desires. I will say that none of this is required, none of it is necessary and none of it helps the integrity of the European Union's single market. <BR /> <BR />I will say this clearly, because the European Union needs to know it: we have no intention of being used as a back door to import materials to the European Union's single market that undermines the integrity of that single market. I am happy to be helpful on that front, but it cannot expect us to impose such punitive checks on all the people of Northern Ireland, in spite of the fact that some of their public representatives would slavishly comply with the Holy Grail of Brussels.”
“The process was a fairly simple one. In the first instance, I went to the First Minister and deputy First Minister to request permission to go to the Executive with a paper that would seek permission to continue the checks. Sinn Féin denied me the opportunity to go with that paper through the deputy First Minister, and, consequently, we were left in circumstances where the Executive had not ruled on it. Given the court hearings that had taken place over the autumn months and the pre-action protocol letter that had come in, I required legal advice. I received legal advice, and that took me to the position where we needed to stop the checks until the Executive had given clearance for those checks to be carried out.”
“When someone steps out of one position, it does not preclude them from providing advice in the future. Is the Member suggesting that some form of discrimination should exist and we have a particular person whom we are not allowed to take advice from? <BR /> <BR />The individual who gave advice is an experienced constitutional lawyer and has significant standing as a constitutional lawyer. People of his standing are not that common in Northern Ireland. Therefore, using someone of that standing gives me a sound basis for making the decision that I made.”
“If the European Union does not care about the peace process in Northern Ireland, it will continue to dig its heels in, to drag its feet and to oppose change. If people here are foolish enough to encourage it to do that, the consequences will be massive damage to the political process.”
“I will point out to the Member that I am not part of the negotiations. I wish that I was, but I am not. The negotiations take place between the United Kingdom Government and the European Union, and they are not about Brexit; they are about the protocol. I have engaged consistently, particularly with Her Majesty's Government, to the point where we got the operational Command Paper, which was a significant step forward. Then we got the negotiations reopened with the European Union, and I have engaged with Maroš Šefcovic. <BR /> <BR />We need to be clear that the negotiations have been running on for many months now. We need to get down to the detail and to get the negotiations concluded, because what we have is unacceptable.”
“Opening containers on lorries and checking whether Sainsbury's, Asda, Tesco, Henderson or whomever it happens to be has all the items in the precise order that is on the paper, in my opinion, is a complete and utter waste of time and money and of a veterinarian's time when they should be getting on with the job of providing care for animals and assurance to the public about the quality of food that they get.”
“I do not want to pre-empt Mr Allister's question, which I will deal with as an oral question, but the cost runs into millions of pound. That is without recruiting anywhere near the number of staff whom we were supposed to have recruited at this stage. I have to say this: the more staff we recruit to carry out needless checks, the more staff we take away from other tasks. Veterinarians are in short supply in Northern Ireland. We need our veterinarians to work in our meat plants to assure the public of the quality of meat they get. We need our veterinarians to deal with avian influenza. The farming community and the public in general need veterinarians to carry out care for their animals and ensure that there is good animal welfare throughout Northern Ireland.”
“I thank the Member for the question. Yes, I brought it before the Executive, and it was blocked from coming onto the Executive table. The matter is for those who blocked it from coming onto the Executive table. I do not think that they intended to change their minds, so I can have all the conversations that I wish to have with either Sir Jeffrey Donaldson or Paul Givan, but, as Sinn Féin was determined to block it coming onto the agenda, it was not coming onto the Executive table, and therefore the Executive had never given authority for those checks in the first place.”
“The full and rigorous implementation of the protocol would be devastating to Northern Ireland's economy and consumers. It is devastating to the political process here to the point where we now do not have a First Minister.”
“It cannot be. It cannot be, because we have had the issues with human medicines, and we now have the issues with veterinary medicines. We have had the problems with ordinary, basic food items coming into the supermarkets. I am aware of one company that lost just short of half a million pounds in the week before Christmas because goods were not accepted into Northern Ireland as a result of the protocol. It will get to the point when companies turn round and say, "Much and all as we really want to continue to service Northern Ireland, it is not worth the hassle". If you want to drive out choice and drive out companies that have served here for many years, just keep going the way things are going. <BR /> <BR />People need to be alert to the fact that the protocol is hugely damaging, and we have seen only the edges of it yet.”
“The legal advice was commissioned by the Departmental Solicitor's Office, as is normal practice. I do not know what the costs are, because I do not have a bill.”
“A bomb has been put in the political element of the peace process not by terrorists but by the European Union, which is insisting on destroying the political processes here by its actions. That is unacceptable.”
“As I indicated, I do not believe that the Executive, now not functioning, will be re-established until the issue is resolved. I cannot see how an issue of such gravity and seriousness can continue to be pushed down the road, with talk of mañana and promises of tomorrow but tomorrow never coming. We had what happened last week because tomorrow did not come. There is a consequence to that. You need cross-community support to operate the Northern Ireland Executive. You will not achieve cross-community support while the European Union continues to impose burdens that do not have cross-community support on the people of Northern Ireland. Someone in Europe needs to wake up to the reality that they are not doing this to assist the peace process.”
“Good will come if we succeed, at some point, in getting to a much better place, at which people will not have their bags unpacked as they come into Northern Ireland in their cars. They will not have food taken off them in their family car. If Members care to read the report that is lodged in the Assembly Library, they will find that that is what the European Union wants to do. Maybe Ms Bailey did not realise that when she put her hand to the rigorous implementation, but that is what you want, Ms Bailey; you want people to have to go through that rigorous implementation, which involves people's cars and luggage being searched when they travel from Great Britain to Northern Ireland. That is a wholly unsustainable position. As I stated, given its unsustainability, if it remains, it will not lead to the restoration of the Executive.”
“Agriculture is our biggest industry. It employs around 10% of our population. The European Union is denying it access to up to 40% of the medicines that it currently uses. Think of all the pet owners and how much they love their pets. When they go to their vet, the vet will say, "We can't get you that item any more, because the Europeans don't allow it to come in here. We can't get you that item any more, so we can't treat your pet, or we'll have to treat it with a more expensive product that comes from the European Union". I would really love the people who are calling and bawling for the rigorous implementation of the protocol to represent their constituents' needs, as opposed to their political ideology.”
“We hear a lot about how the European Union was so generous with its deal on medicines that it actually allowed people who are suffering from cancer and other illnesses to get generic medicines into Northern Ireland to treat them. That is not generous; it is downright arrogant to deny people medicines. The European Union was supposed to include veterinary medicines in the arrangements that it proposed for human medicines, but it has not done so. As a consequence, the British Veterinary Association has highlighted that 40% of the veterinary medicines that are currently available to them will no longer be available to them.”
“I unilaterally made that decision. Nobody has challenged that in court yet, so I will probably be challenged on that one tonight by some individual who thinks that it is more important to suck up to the European Union than it is to provide services to the people of Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />There is no need for checks for rabies. The last time that that happened in Ireland, or on these islands, was in 1922. There is no need for our animals to have rabies vaccinations or tapeworm treatments, but the European Union seems to think that that is a good idea. It also thinks that it is a good idea that we do not get veterinary medicines that were previously available to us from Great Britain.”
“I assure the Member that I have been working with both the Attorney General and the DSO. It is very common — it has happened over the years that I have been in Government — for Ministers to seek advice from senior counsel who specialise in a particular area. Given that this is constitutional law, I specifically sought the advice of a constitutional lawyer as well. My advice is there: it will be tested in court, and we will see the outcome, but the grounds for me making the decision are soundly based on sound legal advice.”
“<BR /> <BR />We are now in an even worse situation in that the EU is still making laws for us but we have no Members of the European Parliament and no means of holding anybody to account. There was a saying that Irish people used to say: no taxation without representation. It seems that those who are great people about being Irish no longer hold that line, because they want legislation without representation. There is no democracy involved there.”
“One of the reasons why I voted for Brexit was that I wanted accountability in decision-making. Irrespective of everything else, I wanted the people making laws for me to be people whom I could influence. That is a right of every citizen. The place where you will have most influence is local government. Councillors are the people who are most available to the public, followed by Members of the Assembly and then by MPs. The Member was in the European Parliament. She knows how much influence three Members of the European Parliament had amongst the many hundreds of Members in that body and how deals were done and stitched up beforehand and all of that. She knows, better than most, about the circumstances that prevail there, and they are particularly undemocratic.”
“<BR /> <BR />The other issue is this: if the Member is referring to the likes of a pork company that imports raw pork from Great Britain to reprocess it, most of which then goes back to Great Britain but some of which goes to other places, we have no problem whatsoever in facilitating checks to do that so that our companies can continue to import and export. We do not, however, need checks on the vast majority of things that come in here at the minute. Exports have to be dealt with differently. We are happy to do that and to engage with the business sector to ensure that it will have as free movement as possible between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, between the European Union and Northern Ireland and between Northern Ireland and the European Union.”
“There are two issues there. One is the food that comes in from Great Britain to Northern Ireland that stays in Northern Ireland and therefore causes no risk whatsoever to the European Union's single market. Does the Member think that it is a good thing for lorries for the likes of Asda and Sainsbury's, which do not even have shops in the Republic of Ireland, to have to go through checks? Applying official controls regulation (OCR) costs to those goods will drive up the costs for people in Strabane who buy their food in the Asdas of this world. If he thinks that that is a good idea, let us hear it.”
“They are the Member's constituents and my constituents, and they have been complaining. Whether it be the Amazon deliveries that are not coming, the hundreds of companies in Great Britain that are now saying that they will not supply Northern Ireland or the supermarket lorries that are being turned away, with hundreds of thousands of pounds' worth of goods perishing as a consequence, all those things are already happening. Were the grace periods to go, and were we to carry out all the checks that the EU expects us to, the problems arising at our ports would be inconceivable. <BR /> <BR />I ask these questions to Mr Blair and anybody else in the Chamber: do you still want the rigorous implementation of the protocol? Did you not understand what its rigorous implementation meant, or do you now not want its rigorous implementation?”
“The Member did not seem to mind bringing added burden to business and the public when he and other Members voted for the protocol's rigorous implementation. As a consequence, we now have proposals from the European Union for a massive number of checks. <BR /> <BR />People have not seen the implications of the Northern Ireland protocol yet, because so little of it is being implemented at this stage. Were it not for grace periods and other reasons, we would be in a circumstance in which business would be crippled as a consequence of the checks. Over 50% of our trade, both import and export, is with Great Britain. The consequence of putting barriers between from where you import 50% of your goods and the individuals who receive those goods will ultimately be to cause great harm to the latter. Who are those individuals?”
“My Executive paper on the continued implementation of sanitary and phytosanitary checks at Northern Ireland points of entry under the Northern Ireland protocol was not considered by the Executive at their meeting on 27 January 2021. I, therefore, do not have an agreed Executive decision on the matter at this time. <BR /> <BR />As you are aware, on Friday 4 February, the High Court suspended the implementation of my decision until a further order from the court or until the conclusion of the judicial review proceedings. I await a response from the court.”
“<BR /> <BR />I thank the Committee for Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs for the prompt scrutiny of the SL1 for the statutory rule, and I thank the Business Committee for scheduling the motion in what I appreciate is a busy time in the run-up to the end of the mandate.”
“The carrier bag levy in Northern Ireland leads the way in the UK, and any legislative change must deliver continued improvement, customer awareness and positive behavioural change. The existing carrier bag legislation in Northern Ireland is very clear, and it has been agreed and ratified by Her Majesty's Treasury that all proceeds in revenue from the levy must be used to fund environmental projects across Northern Ireland. Indeed, we are the only UK jurisdiction with those arrangements. The reinvestment of levy proceeds to environmental projects across NI is benefiting everyone, as what is good for the environment is good for the economy in the long term. <BR /> <BR />Finally, I will point out the following key messages: do not pay to throw away; bring your own bag; reuse your bag; and purchase a bag only when really necessary.”
“Amending the threshold from 20p to £5 will potentially and initially impact a small number of retailers who have always priced bags at 20p and above, primarily as they will have to set up IT and staff training costs. Most NI retailers will incur minimal additional transitional costs for staff training as their IT systems and personnel are already in place and are similar to the departmental systems that are in place to collect and enforce the levy. <BR /> <BR />The environmental benefits of a reduction in carrier bag usage feed into a reduction in waste management, reduced litter on our streets and in our oceans, improved air quality, green growth, resource efficiency and a circular economy.”
“An increase to the levy and an amendment of the 20p threshold to £5 is considered necessary in order to better inform, influence and shape consumer and retailer behaviour, thus encouraging the reuse of carrier bags and reducing the number of bags that are in circulation. An amendment of the threshold has been informed by retailer pricing points, significant changes in consumer behaviours and representations following consultation. The pricing point of bags in most of the large retailers has steadily risen over the last five years and is now matching the threshold of 20p or more, making the threshold no longer relevant and resulting in those retailers being outside the reporting requirement. Updating and simplifying the exemptions will simplify compliance for retailers.”
“With the removal of the exemption on the 20p threshold, where bags that are sold at 20p or more do not attract the levy, all retailers will now be required to charge a 25p levy on all bags that they dispense with a price not greater than £5. Many of the larger supermarkets already dispense bags at 20p or more, which consumers continue to purchase. It is expected that customer behaviour will change by increasing the levy to 25p. <BR /> <BR />Some exemptions for various bag sizes are no longer considered relevant, and amendments to the exempted categories will simplify the regulations for consumers and retailers.”
“It is clear that, despite those consistent and ongoing increases, consumers across Northern Ireland have continued to purchase a range of bags at a cost of up to and over 20p. A large quantity of those bags are heavier, thicker and have a higher adverse environmental impact. Many go to landfill where they take longer to degrade than single-use bags. In the worst-case scenario, some end up polluting our watercourses. Change is needed in order to positively redress and re-educate customer and retailer behaviours. Given that the market is now swamped with heavy-duty bags that are priced at 20p or more, only by increasing the levy to 25p on all bags can a significant positive environmental change and outcome be delivered.”
“While the levels of funds have varied to support small, medium and large projects, many of those initiatives have been funded through the Northern Ireland environment fund, which enables not-for-profit organisations and councils to deliver key environmental interventions. <BR /> <BR />The levy is the broadest and most detailed of all the carrier bag levies and charging regimes across the UK in that it applies to all materials, including paper. All retailers who dispense bags must charge the levy, and the Department can demonstrate a high level of compliance across the Northern Ireland retail sector. Evidence gathered across the retail sector shows that, since the levy's introduction, a significant number of large retailers have already increased the price of their bags to more than 5p.”
“Today, I seek the Assembly's approval for the Single Use Carrier Bags Charge (Amendment and Revocation) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2022. <BR /> <BR />In Northern Ireland, the 5p carrier bag levy was introduced in 2013. Since then, the levy has removed in excess of 1·7 million bags from circulation and delivered a significant, tangible result on the initial policy objective of protecting the environment by regulating against the unnecessary use of bags. The levy, in its eight years of existence in Northern Ireland, has generated proceeds in excess of £35 million, which have been subsequently reinvested to support a broad range of environmental projects across Northern Ireland.”
“— an Executive to come back to while those checks exist.”
“It is evident to me today that we have a group of people who are happy with majority rule now but who, 40 years ago, were demanding an end to majority rule. If majority rule was not right for unionism, according to nationalist politicians, why now is it the right thing for nationalist politicians on issues such as this? <BR /> <BR />The basis for having this place back together is cross-community agreement, but we do not have it. We have appealed again and again to the European Union to come to some logical position on the protocol, but it has dragged its feet. The operational Command Paper in July was good as far as it went. It would have been a basis for moving forward, but we have had foot-dragging ever since. I am sorry: you can drag your feet as long as you like, but there will not be —”
“The EU expects us to do that with food that is coming in from Britain. How many planes, trucks and cars come into Northern Ireland from Great Britain every day? The EU is demanding that we ask people to open their suitcases and bags, and if there are a few mandarin oranges in there that they bought for the children on the ferry on the way home left over, those are deemed to be an at-risk item. That is the perversity of what Members across the Chamber are demanding, yet they then scratch their head when it all goes wrong. <BR /> <BR />Mr Beattie is right, and, on a number of occasions, I appealed in the Executive for the need to come together to arrive at a position that is good for Northern Ireland, not one that is good for nationalism.”
“I have heard a lot being said about this matter today, but I am surprised that people could not see that it was coming. I am also surprised that people cannot see the role that they have played in bringing it about. We had a debate in the Chamber some time ago in which the SDLP, Sinn Féin, the Alliance Party and the Green Party all called for the rigorous implementation of the Northern Ireland protocol. We got a report from the EU Commission some weeks ago, which was placed in the Assembly Library, that indicates what the rigorous implementation of the protocol means. <BR /> <BR />For some years, people who had travelled back from various parts of the world through Aldergrove airport would have seen a notice about what they were supposed to do with food and other items that they were bringing in from third countries.”
“<BR /> <BR />Finally, when Members are making their decisions on these amendments, I ask them to bear in mind the question of whether it is better to properly consult, design and scope out new bodies and new duties for existing bodies, or to agree, without consultation, to hastily create new bodies and duties which will have unknown and open-ended costs and impacts. In the interests of proper process and due regard for public money, I implore Members to support my amendments and to reject the others in the group.”
“I fully appreciate the absolute importance of good air quality, but a further issue with the amendment is that targets for air quality are dealt with in other Northern Ireland legislation. It is therefore not appropriate that such targets are included in this Bill. For the reasons that I have outlined, I cannot support this amendment, and I urge Members to support clause 16 of the Bill instead. <BR /> <BR />Amendment Nos 33 and 78 are consequential. I have already spoken about the main amendments that they link to.”