Edwin Poots
South Belfast · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I call Mr Eóin Tennyson. Again, this is Mr Tennyson's first opportunity to speak as a private Member, so I remind the House that it is convention that a maiden speech be made without interruption. However, if you choose to express views that provoke an interruption, you are likely to forfeit that protection.”
“Sorry — Ms Armstrong. My apologies. <BR /> <BR />That the Assembly could, in some way, get that money out when it is a UK Government responsibility. The UK Government have distributed it directly in Scotland and Wales, not through the Welsh Parliament and not through the Scottish Parliament.”
“I have not got time; I am sorry. <BR /> <BR />Ursula von der Leyen, who was in the Republic last week, made some of the most ridiculous claims about the British Government, who have supported Ukraine in a way that no other Government in Europe have and who have never engaged in the activity that was suggested by Ursula von der Leyen.”
“Today, a lot of statements have been made but there has not been a lot of fact behind a lot of what has been said. We have Michelle O'Neill, who walked out of her role as Health Minister — not for six months but for three years — and abandoned her position when we had Bengoa and there were all the problems with nursing that led to the str…”
“I need to deal with the issues first. <BR /> <BR />He referred to the Budget that he produced. No party supported that Budget. The Alliance Party did not support it, because it did not cover policing and prisons. Infrastructure did not support it, because it would not allow it to do the basics of what had to be done.”
“We had a circumstance where Sinn Féin repeated, month after month after month, that there were hundreds of millions to give to the public when that did not exist and when, in reality, Minister Murphy was racking up debt that will roll into next year, which will ensure that that will be a difficult financial year.”
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“It is a bit of a sad reflection on our society that, although there are many jobs out there, there are still people who do not want to take them up, whilst people from eastern Europe, Portugal, East Timor, Brazil and other countries are only too glad to take up the work that is available here.”
“I have raised it at the Executive, and the Executive are writing to the Government of the day to express their concern about the issues involved. We need to recognise that it is not just us but many places in England, Scotland and Wales that will be hit a consequence of this. The fishing industry will be hit as a consequence of it. We need to recognise that people who have come from other countries have sustained many of our businesses and sustained our agriculture sector in that we have an excellent processing sector, much of which is made up of people who came from other countries.”
“At the minute, only around 9% of people who work in the agri-food sector would qualify under the new regulations that are being suggested. I welcome the fact that the regulations have been eased, but two sectors — one is the health and social care sector, which does not involve my Department, and the other is the agri-food sector, which does involve my Department — will be hit badly as a consequence of the regulations. That battle is not over, and it is a battle that we need to continue to have. Those two sectors in particular should have a different level than, perhaps, some of the other sectors. Perhaps, engineering and some of the other areas that people come here to work in provide better-paid jobs, so we need to look at the areas where we have a reliance on workers from other countries so that we make it possible for that to happen.”
“I agree with the Member, particularly on the importance of the honeybee. People often take for granted the work that the bee does to sustain our environment. In America, because of the growing of almonds and the extraction of milk from those almonds, they have lost around one third of the honeybee population. That has been done in the name of the environment; people drink almond milk rather than cow's milk in the name of the environment. They are actually destroying the environment. I believe that around a third of the milk that Starbucks, for example, uses is almond milk. Starbucks is damaging the environment; it is damaging the bee population because of what it is doing. It should stop using almond milk because the mites from the almonds are destroying the honeybee population.”
“Yes. It is one of the things that I have asked about when looking at how we move beyond the current environmental farming schemes (EFS) to the next tranche. Wild flowers grow better on soils that are not so good. They excel where the soil is shallower or is more clay-ish in nature. It is a great thing to encourage wild flowers, and it is something that I would be keen to investigate further, going forward.”
“The Member raises an interesting point. Ballykelly was criticised earlier: it is an excellent building for heat retention. Dundonald House was mentioned: it is an appalling building for heat retention. Somebody thought that it was a wise thing to list it. The heating system is one of the most environmentally unsustainable and unfriendly systems that there are, but that is how various parts of the Department work: built heritage thinks that it is wonderful, but everybody else thinks that it is absolutely appalling. Nonetheless, I am happy to investigate that. Our staff need to be in buildings that have good, appropriate heating systems for the wintertime and proper conditions for the summertime, when it is very warm. We need to look at all of that. Dundonald House is certainly a building that I will look at.”
“The Member talks about 24,500 jobs. The question is this: who will pay for those? If it is the Assembly, where will it get the money from, and what areas will it be taken from? I have a lot of sympathy with the issue of retrofitting homes. Newer homes have tremendous ambient heat. Consequently, they use very little energy to keep warm because they retain heat so well. That is a place that we want to go to. Building regulations deal with newer houses and extensions to older houses, but there are many houses across the country for which we do not have that standard, and, consequently, there is an awful lot of heat loss. The Member raises a valid point, but the issue is this: where do we get the finance to do it?”
“I know that it is an aspiration that some people in the farming sector have been pressing for, but I do not think it is a realistic aspiration. I do not think it is deliverable and, consequently, it is not something that we have been pressing for. Ultimately, we live in a free trade market. We live in a global marketplace, and we compete quite well in it because of the standard and quality of our goods and our close proximity to one of the best markets that is available, which is the GB market. That is not without its challenges, and a 23% and 25% reduction in two years running is not sustainable going forward. We need to see an uplift in prices in the incoming year, and I will be challenging supermarkets and processors to ensure that farmers get a fairer cut of the profitability that remains in the food sector.”
“Powers to introduce measures to support fairness in the supply chain are included in the Agriculture Bill recently introduced at Westminster. I hope to engage further with other UK Ministers on these issues in the coming months.”
“We have the Groceries Code Adjudicators (GCA) remit. It is a reserved matter and is subject to regular review. DEFRA and the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (BEIS) published the UK Government's response to a call for evidence on extending the GCA's remit to include farmers. Analysis of the response led DEFRA and BEIS to conclude that it would not be appropriate to extend the remit of GCA at that time, which was unfortunate. The UK Government concluded that there is a significant potential to explore more targeted and proportionate approaches to support primary producers. These include the possibility of introducing mandatory written contracts in the dairy sector and mandatory carcass classification and price reporting within the sheep sector.”
“Encouraging and facilitating dialogue is vital to the overall success of all sectors in the supply chain. The retail and processing sectors have an important role and I have started to engage with them, and their representatives, to hear their views on helping farm businesses become more financially sustainable. For the longer term, DAERA is working to develop an agriculture policy framework that meets the industry's future needs. My officials are engaging informally with internal and external stakeholders to gather evidence on the challenges and opportunities and practical policy interventions that we can make. I hope to lay the foundations for a better-functioning supply chain in this Assembly mandate.”
“Farmers work extremely hard to very high standards and play a vital role in producing high-quality food. The farming industry is also vital to our economy, supports tourism and contributes to rural and environmental sustainability. However, it faces severe financial pressure. Provisional estimates of farm income indicate a 25% reduction in 2019. This follows a similar level of reduction in 2018. Estimates show that most farms, notably cattle and sheep farms, have suffered. There is clearly a concern, and it is not sustainable. I strongly believe that everyone in the agri-food supply chain should share equitably in the risks and rewards. The long-term sustainability of the farming industry depends on farmers receiving a fair return for their work and produce.”
“The Department does not have a particular fund for this type of thing, so each matter has to be done on a case-by-case basis. Where genuine hardship can be demonstrated, that can be given consideration. These difficult weather events are going to continue. They are not going to go away. Therefore, we have to be cautious of just how much public money we invest in this. We should be encouraging people to have the appropriate and adequate insurance, but I understand and accept that many insurers will not cover quite a lot of these issues.”
“Therein lies the problem for government, in that the first scheme is probably the most powerful one, the next scheme is just a little behind that, and so on. There has been a series of incidents beyond your own — I recall the incidents in Fermanagh a number of years back — where weather events have caused hardship. Precedent is used, of course. I need to look at all of this and give it all very serious consideration. I would like to be helpful, but we are custodians of public money, and there is only so much of it to go around. We have to be cautious in all of these matters.”
“It is one of those difficult calls that I have to give ministerial direction on, so I have to give considerable thought to it.”
“I will consider it. At a meeting earlier today, it was described by one of my officials as not so much a flooding incident as a landslide incident. We should be treating it as a landslide incident as opposed to a flooding incident, because large quantities of material slid down into the valley. Some of the fields were covered with over a metre of debris, and it was impossible to farm on that land until the necessary adjustments were made. That work had to be carried out at considerable cost to people who perhaps had not got the means for it. <BR /> <BR />I understand all of this. There are just over 220 cases involved here. Some were hit much harder than others. Some have subsequently benefited from environmental farming scheme grant aid, which has allowed for new fencing etc.”
“The advice from officials is that the provision of a financial assistance scheme cannot be justified on value-for-money grounds, nor, given the passage of time, can a convincing justification be made on hardship grounds. However, I recognise the challenges faced by affected farmers. This will be a difficult decision for me to make, so I will carefully consider all the relevant issues surrounding the matter before reaching a balanced position in due course.”
“I have received detailed briefings outlining DAERA's response to the flooding event. The Department for Communities operates a scheme of emergency financial assistance, which was introduced by the Executive on the initiative of the then Finance Minister in June 2017. Its purpose is to provide immediate financial support to households that have suffered from flooding.”
“I am aware of the difficulties experienced by farmers and the wider rural community in the Sperrins as a result of the flooding in August 2017. As I outlined previously in response to a question, DAERA has provided a range of financial, advisory and practical support to affected farmers. The Department continues to provide support, including £500,000 to the Loughs Agency to undertake riparian fencing works in the worst-affected areas. <BR /> <BR />As regards providing support to the wider rural community, departmental officials met local stakeholders in Plumbridge to discuss community needs. My Department continues to engage in the collaborative work under way through a local growth partnership board to identify priority actions for the Sperrin district electoral area.”
“Consequently, we, locally, can make better decisions on this than have been handed down to us.”
“Yes, that is certainly something that I want to look at. I have indicated to my departmental officials that things are not working as they are and we need to look at how we can change things. That will not be straightforward, but I am committed to engaging in work on that. <BR /> <BR />We have an unpredictable weather pattern, albeit that our weather seems to operate in cycles. We get cycles of dry weather followed by, generally, a longer period of wet weather. We need to make the best of it when the weather is good, and when the weather is not so good, it is not suitable to be spreading slurry. <BR /> <BR />We must give farmers a little more flexibility so that they can do a better job of protecting the environment than has been set out for us by the European Union.”
“Of course it will make it more difficult. If you have a small field, the buffer can create a problem. Some drains can be dry drains, so they are less of an issue. We need to ensure that there is less pollution of waterways while maximising nutrients going into the soil. Run-off is no good for farmers or the environment. We need to match the needs. That is why we are looking at soil analysis, which can demonstrate the appropriate amount of fertiliser and organic manures that farmers need to apply without overdoing it and it ending up in waterways.”
“February was wholly unsuitable for spreading slurry, except for three or four days at the start of the month, whilst January was an exceptionally good month and ideal for spreading slurry. We want to test this and see what latitude we have. Given that we are still locked into European Union directives as a result of the protocol, we want to see where we can stretch this. Farming by a calendar works only in an office in Brussels. It does not work in a field in County Tyrone, County Londonderry or County Down.”
“I would prefer to apply local solutions to local problems.”
“The nitrates directive was brought in by the European Union, which has a great way of applying blunt instruments to local problems.”
“That is a matter for the courts. The courts are independent of the Department, and the Department, through the Northern Ireland Environment Agency (NIEA) will take the prosecutions. The NIEA is not the prosecutor and cannot determine what punishments people will get. Some people have said that that situation demonstrates the need for an independent agency, but it is the courts that make those decisions, not an independent agency, not the NIEA and not the Department or anybody else. If we are not satisfied, that needs to be addressed with the Lord Chief Justice as opposed to a political Minister.”
“Soil phosphorus is, however, often above the agronomic optimum, so there is more work to be done on reducing phosphorus inputs from livestock feeds and chemical fertilisers. Ensuring best practice and compliance with the NAP measures will reduce the risk of phosphorus run-off in the waterways.”
“There are non-spread zones beside waterways and a minimum slurry storage capacity requirement for livestock farms. The NAP for 2019-2022 includes additional measures. These aim to address pressures on water quality, particularly for increasing phosphorus levels, which have been evident over recent years. Other measures include a requirement to use low-emission slurry spreading equipment in certain circumstances. <BR /> <BR />The most recent water quality data indicates that the vast majority of surface freshwater and groundwater in Northern Ireland continues to have nitrate levels well below the limits in the EU nitrates directive. However, excess phosphorus is the main cause of water quality problems in our rivers and lakes. My Department recognises the good work done by farmers since the NAP was introduced in 2007.”
“I thank the independent Member for Lagan Valley for his question. He is looking very well in the corner there. <BR /> <BR />The current nutrient actions programme (NAP) regulations for the period 2019-2022 implement a range of controls on livestock manures and chemical fertilisers. In Northern Ireland, NAP has been in place since 2007. It is reviewed and revised every four years and applies to all farms. The measures are underpinned by scientific evidence, including local research by the Agri-food and Biosciences Institute. <BR /> <BR />Key measures include a closed period during the winter months, when slurry cannot be spread, and no spreading when soil and weather conditions are unsuitable. There are limits to how much slurry can be spread.”
“LIDAR is a very useful tool. We intend to use it to identify where run-off goes into coastal waters. If it can help us to tackle coastal erosion, we should utilise it. If we can gain further benefits from it, as opposed to using it just for water management, I will be happy to look at that.”
“I know that it is not on the sea coast. I do not know how that happened, so I am not able to explain it.”
“I am not as familiar as the Member with Country Armagh, but I know that it is bounded by County Down, County Louth, County Tyrone — and there is one more, is there not?”
“My Department, as the marine licensing authority, receives applications for construction and development proposals up to the high-water mark. It will consider the factors that I mentioned in the pre-application and licensing processes and will provide that guidance on the environmental information or reports that are required to support such an application.”
“The coast forms part of a highly dynamic system. As such, it will be subject periodically to the natural process of coastal erosion. That is particularly true of the sandy beaches and dune systems that are prevalent and that we are fortunate to have in many parts of Northern Ireland. The management of any given area will depend upon a range of factors, such as nature and value of the site at risk, the coastal process that is affecting it and the area's nature conservation interests. It is those factors that will influence the most appropriate response, from non-intervention through to the construction of coastal defences. It is difficult to define best practice, recommended methodologies and materials to be used as they will differ depending on the circumstances.”
“<BR /> <BR />The approach is essentially a coastal protection policy rather than a coastal erosion risk management strategy, and the objective is simply the protection of property, with no requirement to consider the consequences of implementing and maintaining coastal protection. Bateman does not require a joined-up or strategic approach as a consequence. So there has been a lack of leadership on coastal erosion risk management and no coordinated strategy to consider and address coastal erosion in Northern Ireland. It is important that our two Departments, DFI and DAERA, work closely together to get into the coastal erosion issue.”
“Yes, the Bateman formula was introduced and endorsed in 1967 by the then secretary to the Ministry of Finance, Sir Cecil Bateman. It ruled that assets along the coastline would be looked after by the respective Department or landowner whose responsibilities most closely coincided with the property or asset at risk from erosion, which clearly has a weakness about it. The Coast Protection Act 1949 did not extend to Northern Ireland, so there was no legislation in place in Northern Ireland to specifically address coastal erosion or assign responsibility for it. Instead, for the past 53 years, it has been addressed through the Bateman formula.”
“As part of this project proposal is in preparation for a comprehensive shoreline survey and vulnerability assessment, the coastal forum has also prepared a position statement to assist councils with their consideration of coastal change when preparing local development plans. <BR /> <BR />In addition to collaboration between my Department and the Department for Infrastructure, the coastal forum and its associated working group have provided an opportunity for collaboration with councils and organisations, such as the National Trust, Ulster University, the Agri-Food and Biosciences Institute and the Geological Survey of Northern Ireland. That collective expertise and desire to collaborate on the challenging issue of coastal erosion risk management is becoming very constructive.”
“The coastal forum has enabled my Department to collaborate and develop strong links with the Department for Infrastructure on coastal erosion risk management issues. The two Departments commissioned a baseline study and gap analysis of coastal erosion risk, which was published in January 2019. The study collated existing data relating to coastal erosion and undertook a high-level vulnerability assessment. However, the primary conclusion from this assessment was that there is insufficient data, and the results must be considered as preliminary and of insufficient reliability to inform coastal management decision-making. The report made recommendations on how to improve the evidence base, and these have informed the draft coastal work programme.”
“Any person, or company, who has previously been charged will be easily identifiable. In these processes, there are a series of things, which include the financial fitness to carry out such operations. This programme is in place to ensure that fit and proper persons comply.”
“They are certainly more robust. One can never be absolutely certain that people will not try to cheat the system, because there will always be individuals, particularly where considerable amounts of money can be made — considerable amounts of money can be made from this — who continue to try to cheat the system. Nonetheless, the regulations have been strengthened considerably, and we are committed to ensuring that people do not get away with these misdemeanours.”
“<BR /> <BR />The regulatory reforms made by the Department in response to the Mills review are as follows: a new compliance assessment model is in use for licensed and permanent sites, which has resulted in improved compliance levels; a number of waste regulations have been introduced or amended, providing the Department with additional powers controlling waste, transport documentation and treatment activities; the fit and proper person requirements for holders of waste authorisations has been revised; technical qualifications have been enhanced; a broader range of offences is now prescribed; and a review of activities exempt from food waste management licensing was carried out, and regulations have been amended to reduce the risk of abuse by operators.”
“The oversight reforms made by my Department in response to the Mills review are as follows: our compliant waste sector is now a corporate priority for the Department; a comprehensive operational waste strategy is being developed; structural change has been implemented with the creation of a new single directorate within the Northern Ireland Environment Agency, bringing together existing regulatory and enforcement teams along with the new intelligence unit; a joint local and central government waste working group has been established with councils to support the more effective handling of municipal waste; and staff skills and professional development have been improved, with a robust induction and technical development framework in place.”
“It is certainly something that will capture more carbon. It is a little controversial in that it may involve other people's lands and therefore it is something that we need to look at, and we need to work with other people in doing that and exercise due caution in that respect. There is a carbon benefit in further wetting our wetlands, but there are challenges in relation to that.”
“We can appropriately deliver a better-forested Northern Ireland, in line with our network of hedgerows, and create a really beneficial place, environmentally and aesthetically. By encouraging tourists to come to Northern Ireland, major benefits may be had from a programme like this. <BR /> <BR />The estimated cost is around £80 million over the 10 years.”
“We can reduce the ammonia loss to the atmosphere from point sources and, in some areas, it will convert steep slopes, which are hazardous for farming on, and areas that are unproductive and currently just growing bracken and gorse, into forest. <BR /> <BR />Those are all areas where we can work with the private landowners in developing. We can work with our own government bodies in developing some of those areas where land is not well utilised at present. I am sure that the Member would welcome us planting trees on such land and improving the opportunities for capturing carbon and providing environmental improvements as a result. <BR /> <BR />There is no real dispute that trees are a benefit to community.”
“Certainly, all afforestation will be contained in this, so that we can have a significant planting to mark 2021. I hope it will be there in 100 years' time, still in Northern Ireland, for people to enjoy and celebrate. <BR /> <BR />The Member asks what benefit there is to the farming community. There is already grant aid for woodland creation. That can be integrated into the whole farm management programme. It complements the agricultural value of the land. In many instances, farmers like sheltered places, for example, for young calves. That can be a real benefit. Providing buffer strips reduces the risk of accidental breaches of water pollution and biosecurity standards.”
“It is slightly off subject, but it is work that we are looking at. In particular, an Environment Bill will come forward that will, for example, identify the need for replacing the work that the European Commission does. An Office for Environmental Protection will be established as a result of that legislation, and it will be wholly independent of government. That is one of the areas that we are looking at when it comes to the hasty establishment of an independent environment agency.”
“We have argued for £340 million that was associated with the European Union to come directly from Westminster. We have argued that it should not go into the Barnett formula but should be separately apportioned. I understand that the Finance Minister will also make that argument, and I will be working closely with him to ensure that we maximise what we can get. I trust that we will be able to move forward together in the best interests of all the people whom we serve.”
“Everybody knows that trees have major benefits. Trees, as does grass, suck carbon out of the atmosphere and into our soil through photosynthesis. That is of real importance to us. <BR /> <BR />Getting people out into forested areas, where they can get activity and the air is cleaner, is a real health benefit. Belvoir Park forest in the Member's constituency is such a massive asset to have in any city. Most cities do not have the opportunity to have a forest park contained within them. Some would see that as being valuable development land. We see it as valuable environmental land that is being utilised appropriately in an urban setting.”
“Nothing beats driving through a city with a broad avenue that has trees lining either side of it. It looks fantastic. We need to ensure that we can have appropriate planting of trees in our urban areas.”