Edwin Poots
South Belfast · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I call Mr Eóin Tennyson. Again, this is Mr Tennyson's first opportunity to speak as a private Member, so I remind the House that it is convention that a maiden speech be made without interruption. However, if you choose to express views that provoke an interruption, you are likely to forfeit that protection.”
“Sorry — Ms Armstrong. My apologies. <BR /> <BR />That the Assembly could, in some way, get that money out when it is a UK Government responsibility. The UK Government have distributed it directly in Scotland and Wales, not through the Welsh Parliament and not through the Scottish Parliament.”
“I have not got time; I am sorry. <BR /> <BR />Ursula von der Leyen, who was in the Republic last week, made some of the most ridiculous claims about the British Government, who have supported Ukraine in a way that no other Government in Europe have and who have never engaged in the activity that was suggested by Ursula von der Leyen.”
“Today, a lot of statements have been made but there has not been a lot of fact behind a lot of what has been said. We have Michelle O'Neill, who walked out of her role as Health Minister — not for six months but for three years — and abandoned her position when we had Bengoa and there were all the problems with nursing that led to the str…”
“I need to deal with the issues first. <BR /> <BR />He referred to the Budget that he produced. No party supported that Budget. The Alliance Party did not support it, because it did not cover policing and prisons. Infrastructure did not support it, because it would not allow it to do the basics of what had to be done.”
“We had a circumstance where Sinn Féin repeated, month after month after month, that there were hundreds of millions to give to the public when that did not exist and when, in reality, Minister Murphy was racking up debt that will roll into next year, which will ensure that that will be a difficult financial year.”
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“I have written to the Prime Minister, the Home Secretary and George Eustice to highlight the severity of the problem in the hope that we can remedy the situation as quickly as possible. We have seen some movement with the recent announcement of additional temporary visas for HGV drivers and poultry workers, but that is not enough, and I will keep pressing for more.”
“Stakeholders, however, have indicated that the new UK immigration system has removed a previously existing route to filling vacancies. The new system, while offering a route to filling skilled vacancies, is cumbersome. Firms report that it is extremely difficult for them to identify migrants who meet all elements of the eligibility criteria and have identified the English language requirement as a particular barrier to entry. <BR /> <BR />I am obviously very concerned about the situation and am committed to doing what I can. As you know, immigration policy is a reserved matter, so my focus has been on ongoing communication with the top levels of Government in Whitehall.”
“With your permission, Mr Speaker, I wish to group questions 1, 6 and 7. <BR /> <BR />I am acutely aware of the labour problems facing our meat processing sector and the growing shortages, particularly in the number of slaughter plant operatives and butchers in our abattoirs and processing plants. I have engaged extensively and held numerous meetings with stakeholders across our food processing sector about their concerns and how best to resolve the issue. <BR /> <BR />Despite employers offering competitive wages and other incentives, they have struggled to recruit all the workers that they need, because insufficient appetite exists amongst our domestic workforce for those types of jobs. For a significant period, we have relied on migrant workers to fill the labour gap in the agri-food industry.”
“I have given way once already, Ms Sheerin. I was kind to you. <BR /> <BR />How do we fix this thing? There is absolutely no issue in checking goods going into the European Union — none whatever with goods that come through Northern Ireland to Great Britain. We will facilitate that. That does not need to happen on the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland. That can happen at our ports, but it is on goods that will enter the European Union, not goods that are staying in Northern Ireland, because there is no risk whatever to the single market from those goods. <BR /> <BR />I apologise, Mr Speaker; I thought that I had an extra minute.”
“Perhaps Ms Sheerin needs to reflect on that.”
“The protocol is a political manipulation that was brought in to punish the United Kingdom for leaving the European Union, and we need to recognise that. It was driven by Simon Coveney, Leo Varadkar and people like that, and it was done by them to damage people who live on the island of Ireland — the people who live in Northern Ireland — whom they claim to support. <BR /> <BR />Realistically, we need to ensure that we roll this back. We need to roll this back for the sheep farmers in the Sperrins, because 97% of the sheep that came in during the previous year could not come in last year because of the Northern Ireland protocol. It is no wonder that farmers in County Tyrone are contacting me and saying, "Will you please try to do something for us, because the people whom we voted in to do something for us are not doing it?".”
“That is a fact of life. That is what is causing the problem. Yes, Ms Sheerin.”
“They were to help us make our contribution towards reducing our carbon footprint. It is certainly not 97% of the sheep that are no longer able to enter Northern Ireland as a result of the protocol. Perhaps Ms Sheerin could have told the farmers who were in contact with her, "This is purely down to the Northern Ireland protocol, which we supported".”
“That cannot be good for business in Northern Ireland. People need to reflect on that, because what is not good for business is not good for consumers. If you are serious about representing people who are in need and people who are on the breadline, you will stand with everybody else in seeking the removal of the protocol. Be honest with the European Union. Be honest that you got it wrong, that the European Union got it wrong and that we need to remove it. <BR /> <BR />Some people ask, "What do we do instead?". Well, what is placing the single market at risk? What are the goods that will cause danger to the single market? It is certainly not the food that ends up in our supermarkets and our corner shops in Northern Ireland. It is certainly not the 100,000 trees that were supposed to come into Northern Ireland but have been cancelled.”
“I call on David Frost to not talk any more about introducing article 16 but to get it introduced and then negotiate from there with the European Union to completely and utterly dismantle the protocol and the damage that it is doing to the Northern Ireland people. <BR /> <BR />We bring in some £13·4 billion of goods every year from the European Union, and we bring in £7·9 billion from everywhere else, so there is basically a 2:1 split in the import of goods. How is it good for the people of Northern Ireland to have checks on two thirds of the goods that are coming in? Clearly, it is not, and people need to reflect on that. That cannot be good. We have 419,000 HGVs coming into Northern Ireland every year. This year, thus far, we have had 25,000 common health entry documents (CHEDs) in six months, and those now involve 2,500 checks per week.”
“It is strange to see the SDLP and the Alliance Party still clinging to the rickety vessel of the protocol even though it is clearly a sinking ship. We need to have some realisation from Mr O'Toole, Mr Blair and others that this is not good for Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />The Member said that the amendment from the Ulster Unionists is looking for a hard border on the island of Ireland, as are others. I do not know anybody who is looking for a hard border on the island of Ireland. I do not see any need for a hard border on the island of Ireland. If we are talking about the protection of the European Union single market, that can be easily done without the protocol, which needs to be dismantled quickly.”
“It is good to have the opportunity to speak on the issue, and it is good to see Sinn Féin moving its position. When we debated the issue last year, there was a great call for the rigorous implementation of the protocol. Now, we have the recognition that rigorous implementation would be a complete and utter disaster for the people of Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />We have not had a rigorous implementation of it thus far. We have had all of the grace periods. Were they to end, there would be a shortage of food on our shelves, costs would go up for the lowest-paid people in Northern Ireland, and there would be devastating harm to all the people of Northern Ireland. It is good to see that recognition.”
“One thing was clear during the debate: not one of those who said that they wanted to go further demonstrated how it could be done, where the science was coming from or what the science says about how it could be delivered. Therefore, until they get to the point where they have the science, they should back this Bill, with the aspiration to go far beyond 82% but recognising that that is an aspiration until the science allows us to achieve more.”
“Where the just transition is delivered, Ms Woods, is where we deliver on carbon reduction. We meet the UK's commitment to net zero and, at the same time, retain the jobs and the livelihoods of people in Northern Ireland. That strikes me as being just. It strikes me as being pretty unjust to put tens of thousands of people out of work with an aspiration, as opposed to something that is based in science. <BR /> <BR />I commend the Bill to the House. It is based on the qualitative science that we have received.”
“2) Bill delivers on it. It is important —.”
“How are you going to create those green jobs? I have just given you the vision. Instead of closing down agriculture, we build on what we have and create those green jobs by creating green energy and exporting it, as well as by exporting meat, lamb, eggs, chicken, milk and other dairy products, and all that go with them. We are serious about keeping jobs for working people in Northern Ireland, not creating a circumstances in which tens of thousands of people are put out of their jobs and in which families who have been working on the land for years are no longer able to do so, because of a misplaced aspiration. <BR /> <BR />I will wind up by addressing Ms Bailey's comments. She talks about a just transition. I have to say that the Climate Change Bill pays lip service to a just transition, while the Climate Change (No.”
“That is what the young person who is on climate strike needs to hear about, Ms Bailey, not about something that is going to destroy jobs. Mr Carroll and People Before Profit want to export our jobs. His illogical position will increase carbon leakage, and that position is shameful.”
“Ultimately, we can export that renewable energy but do it in conjunction with feeding the 10 million people whom we currently feed, not through a reduction in that number. <BR /> <BR />Members who participated in the debate may suggest that, in agriculture, we should go for regression to meet our climate change targets. I challenge that. The science does not say that. Rather, it says that we should go for a better, more environment-based agriculture so that we can achieve what is important, and that is feeding this world. The population is growing, and we cannot do anything to stop that. We can also ensure that we do not import gas from Russia, oil from the Middle East and other fossil fuels, all of which contribute to the damage to our environment. <BR /> <BR />That is what I call a proper vision for Northern Ireland.”
“Those sprayers would be linked to GPS and be associated with the lidar and the soil sampling that we carry out. We would therefore have intelligent use of natural fertilisers, as opposed to chemical fertilisers. <BR /> <BR />Those are all means of reducing our carbon footprint and also of improving the water quality, biodiversity, soil management, soil nutrition and other environmental aspects. <BR /> <BR />I have a vision that the methane that we capture is cleaned on farms and either goes into the pipe network, mixed with hydrogen or, indeed, is collected by lorries that run on hydrogen and then delivered to those households dispersed around the country. <BR /> <BR />We can have a truly renewable energy revolution here in Northern Ireland.”
“I hope that there will be more hydrogen vehicles than electric ones, to be perfectly honest, because a lot of minerals are used in the production of batteries, and there are issues with end-of-life disposal and all of that. Hydrogen will, ultimately, be a cleaner renewable energy to use, and it is better suited to Northern Ireland. How do we deal with the household issue, given our rural dispersion and our inability to connect a lot of people to the natural gas network? We could increase the amount of anaerobic digestion, for example. We would capture the methane that is produced by the cattle when they are housed in the wintertime. We would engage in a separation process after the anaerobic digestion. We would strip the phosphates and nitrogen out of it, and we would compress that nitrogen and apply it to the land through sprayers.”
“I am pleased to inform the Member that that course of work is under way. I am not sure how he knows that certain farms are net zero already. I would like to see that evidence base, because it is not really in the KPMG report. I am not sure what he thinks of that report. If he wants to criticise it, I look forward to that criticism in due course. <BR /> <BR />Mrs Barton and Ms Armstrong raised the issue of household usage. I want to get to that, because, although farming accounts for 27%, householders account for 16%, which is a very significant figure. I see how we can challenge the transport one with the use of hydrogen vehicles and electric vehicles.”
“Again, I am extremely grateful to the Member for his intervention. Maybe he made the comments out of ignorance — I am sorry if that is the case — but we have already been working with Teagasc and AFBI to do that. I am absolutely clear that I want Teagasc and AFBI to develop a scheme for how we measure carbon and what carbon sequestration takes place. There is so much commonality. I have already cleared that so that that can happen. The working together already exists. I do not need any bells or whistles to do those things; I just need to see that, practically, it will work for us and for others. I will then get on with the job, like I did when I was Health Minister with the Altnagelvin cancer unit. I can very easily do those things, and I am very comfortable about doing that in conjunction with Teagasc.”
“When Mr McAleer makes his intervention, he might reflect on the 16% of greenhouse gas emissions that come from homes. The fact that we have more rural homes means that it is more challenging. I have a vision of how we can resolve it, but I have not heard anybody else indicate how they would resolve it. I will come to that in a moment.”
“Yes, I will. <BR /> <BR />I honestly believe that we can produce our food in a way that has a really small environmental footprint and that we can use our farms to produce not just the food but the renewable energy needed to drive our economy.”
“I wonder how those who represent rural communities would be received if they did. Ms Bailey has actually come out and said it, so, if you agree with Ms Bailey's Bill, perhaps you would like to join her in saying that you would be happy to see Northern Ireland's food production exported to New Zealand, Europe and other places. I do not agree with that. I fundamentally disagree with it.”
“Back in 2016, before I became the Environment Minister, the former First Minister and deputy First Minister, on behalf of the Executive, appointed the CCC to provide advice. We pay that body and make our contribution to ensure that it provides us with that independent advice. Aside from that, I sought advice from our own Agri-Food and Biosciences Institute (AFBI), which very much corresponds with what the Climate Change Committee has said. Those people have no particular agenda that Northern Ireland should not make a significant contribution to climate change. They are looking at the issues. <BR /> <BR />To be fair to Ms Bailey, she is fairly clear about the fact that we can export some of our food production to other places, such as New Zealand and Poland. Most of the rest of you have not come out publicly to say that.”
“I will in a moment, but let me conclude this. The Climate Change Committee has said that it will take 1% to 2% of GDP, including Northern Ireland's contribution, to achieve net zero for the UK. However, Ms Bailey wants to deviate from that and to apportion a bill of £1 billion per year, which is about 10% of our block grant, to achieve 100% net zero in Northern Ireland, which will have only a very marginal impact on the UK's net zero aspiration, target and delivery.”
“We are working on achieving net zero for the UK. The Climate Change Committee's advice for achieving that is to follow the current figure of 82%. I believe that that will rise closer to 100%, although not quite to 100%.”
“My speech to the Balmoral show breakfast last week was all about what we can achieve in environmental terms, how we can encapsulate and capture methane, how we can utilise that methane going into our gas pipe networks — we are working with companies such as Firmus and Phoenix to do that — how we can introduce hydrogen, how hydrogen vehicles can drive and power our farms and power the lorries that transport food and the buses that transport people. It is a very exciting area to be in, and I assure Mr O'Dowd that, unlike others, I have a real vision for the environment rather than an aspiration. <BR /> <BR />Miss Woods asked what was wrong with the additional 18%. Ms Bailey went on to talk of the figures, such as the 1% to 2% of GDP that is needed to reach net zero for the UK. She is right: that is what we are working on.”
“Mr O'Dowd suggested that I am not for real on the environment. Meanwhile, Ms Bailey suggested that the waste recycling that we have achieved and our achievement on renewables demonstrated how people could set realistic targets. I was the Minister who set those targets and brought those things forward to enable that to happen. I have also been involved in tackling plastic waste in government, the environmental farming scheme, the pollinator scheme and the environmental challenge fund.”
“I am pleased that we have got to this point. We were working on it this time last year, and it took that period of time to properly go through the evidence base to achieve it. However, while Ms Armstrong suggests that we should add things to the Climate Change (No. 2) Bill, I say to her that this is a Bill to address climate change. We will deal with biodiversity and other aspects of the environment, including independent protection, in other pieces of legislation. We did a course of work last week on the office for environmental protection, which will provide independent oversight of environmental policy. We are doing other courses of work on other aspects of the environment.”
“<BR /> <BR />Evidence of saying that something is achievable does not make it achievable. For example, I could aspire to be the heavyweight champion of the world in boxing by 2030. I can tell you that the heavyweight bit would be achievable, but being the boxing champion of the world would not be achievable. That would be an unrealistic aspiration. I know that Mr McGuigan is a very keen and proficient cyclist. He may want to be the Olympic champion in 2024, flying the flag for the United Kingdom and receiving his knighthood, following in Sir Chris Hoy's footsteps, but it is not realistic. We need to get back to doing things that are realistic. <BR /> <BR />The Climate Change (No. 2) Bill should not be delayed any further. Unfortunately, because the Assembly was not operational for three years, it has been delayed.”
“<BR /> <BR />Mr McGuigan and Mr Carroll mentioned how we should work more closely with Ireland. Ireland's carbon footprint has increased by almost 10% since 1990, while we have reduced our carbon footprint by 18%. We have not reduced our carbon footprint by enough, but to suggest that we should tie ourselves to those who have increased their carbon footprint at the same time does not strike me as particularly rational. <BR /> <BR />Ms Bailey told us about the wonderful work that is being done in the Irish Republic, but we do not have any evidence of any actual work. They have an aspiration that they will deliver net zero, but we have no evidence whatsoever of how they are going to do it. Where is the science? Where have they demonstrated how they are going to deliver that? We need to get back to evidence-based policy.”
“If you do not reduce consumption, the production has to happen somewhere. Moving that production to importation, which is what would happen in the reality of the Climate Change Bill that he has initially supported, only exports the climate change problem. If Brazil goes ahead and increases its cattle herd by 24 million, do you, Mr McGuigan, think that will decrease or increase climate change? Do you think that if we imported beef into the UK from South America, the carbon footprint would be reduced or increased? The answer, very clearly, is that it will increase the carbon footprint and will do away with jobs here in Northern Ireland — some 13,000 jobs in the primary food sector and in agriculture and tens of thousands of jobs in the processing sector. That is not a route that we want to go down.”
“Some of that has involved taking bold decisions. For example, in the '70s and '80s, our people looked at using hydropower, which is taking water from reservoirs and using it to generate electricity where there is high consumption during the day and then pumping the water back into the reservoirs at night when consumption is lower. There was an opportunity to do that, but we did not take it. We are behind, and we need to recognise that we are behind. However, that does not mean we cannot play catch-up. We are playing catch-up, but we cannot do that in the time frame that some people are suggesting. <BR /> <BR />Mr McGuigan also talked about missing the target. I will mention consumption versus production to him. When you have consistent consumption, you need consistent production.”
“Miss Woods, you are correct to assume that those provisions are there only to increase targets, not to decrease them. I also assuage Mr Durkan's concerns about that. <BR /> <BR />Other Members mentioned what Scotland could achieve, and it has achieved a considerable amount in the past.”
“I am really grateful to the Member for raising the trade deal with Australia. Remarkably, while we could be importing lamb and, indeed, beef from Australia, it has not set a net zero carbon target for that huge country. Therefore, it is exactly as I said: we could have carbon leakage and be importing materials that we can produce with a lower carbon footprint. Importing those materials while driving our people out of work is not the way forward. That is why I have been so resistant, and will continue to be, to aspirations that are not based on science. We can deliver net zero across these islands with targets that are meaningful, achievable and scientifically based. <BR /> <BR />Mr Durkan and Miss Woods raised clauses 4 and 5. The ability to increase our targets based on science is what those clauses are about.”
“I am not sure how he is convinced that the sheep farmers in north Antrim who earn £10,000 or £20,000 could live with cuts of £3,000 or £6,000 respectively. That probably takes in most of the sheep farmers in north Antrim. Would he like to live on an income of £7,000 to £14,000? I know that I would not.”
“I hope that our recognition of the need to work together, to all put our shoulder to the wheel and to find an agreement on a way forward that is rational, sensible and based on science will become a common thread during the Bill's completion. We should not say, "We will take this on, and it does not matter how it will affect that person, that sector or that community". A genuine transition to net zero should not be at the cost of somebody else's livelihood. We need to take that into account. <BR /> <BR />I heard Mr McGuigan talk earlier. North Antrim has a lot of sheep farmers. Income for sheep farmers is generally between £10,000 and £40,000, but, far more commonly, it is in the £10,000 to £20,000 range. The proposals that were brought forward on achieving net zero by 2045 would lead to a 30%-plus reduction in incomes over those years.”
“I again apologise for the interruption to Miss Woods's contribution, and I appreciate you allowing the suspension, Mr Deputy Speaker. I thank all those Members who participated in the debate. It has been a reasonable and well-argued debate, and I want to respond to a number of the issues that were raised. <BR /> <BR />First, on climate, we cannot and will not deliver the decarbonisation of the world on our own. However, we can do that if we work together with the rest of the world. Together in the Assembly and in the Executive, who serve the Assembly and the people of Northern Ireland, we can do things that are really significant in reducing our carbon input across all sectors and, consequently, make a real and tangible difference.”
“Can the Member give us any idea of how the Republic of Ireland plans to implement that?”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I apologise for the interruption, but I have been asked to leave the Chamber briefly for a vote in the Executive Committee. It is in your hands, Mr Deputy Speaker, as to whether you wish to adjourn for 10 minutes while I do that or whether you wish to carry on in my absence.”
“I am certainly happy to respond to that. We have a series of things on single-use plastics. It is my desire, certainly in government circles, to lead the way on that and to demonstrate that we can remove single-use plastic from the government estate. We need to pursue that agenda, and I am fully supportive of any efforts any other Member wishes to bring to the table on reducing single-use plastics. It is an area we really need to move on.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I appreciate the thoughts of a former Environment Minister on the issue. I recall that, as Minister, Mr Durkan brought in the single-use plastic bag levy. That was far-reaching legislation, and I congratulate him on bringing it in. I am looking at that legislation with a view to amending it and making it tougher. We have done it, and we have demonstrated what is achievable, so we can take a further step. Similarly, with climate change, it is better to set out something that is achievable; if, in five, 10 or 15 years' time, we discover that we can achieve much more, we will be standing ready and willing to do so. His action in bringing forward that legislation and my action in improving on it, having the benefit of hindsight all these years later, is a demonstration of what we can also do in this Bill.”
“I assume that when she goes canvassing in April next year, she will not be telling those farmers that it is her desire to put them out of business, but that is the reality that we are talking about. It is not me who is using the farmers as a battering ram. Others are imposing a battering ram on the farmers.”
“In doing all these things, we need to study the science and then set targets that are achievable, and, indeed, if we find that we are over-delivering, we will up those targets to ensure that we maximise what we have. To set a target that is not achievable is to set an aspiration. <BR /> <BR />The Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone indicated that we need to achieve net zero. Net zero in Fermanagh and South Tyrone, where there are a lot of sheep farmers, for example, would lead to a 60% reduction in the keeping of sheep. It would lead to a 98% reduction in farms in less-favoured areas (LFAs), from 15,137 down to 348. Fermanagh and South Tyrone, Mid Ulster, and Newry, Mourne and Down account for 43% of less-favoured area farms.”
“I thank the Member for giving way, and, rather than challenge him immediately, I allowed him to develop that point. I am not easily offended, so do not worry about it, Mr O'Dowd. <BR /> <BR />I was previously the Environment Minister. During that time, I faced the challenge of what to do about renewable energy. I put forward proposals for dealing with renewable energy that enabled us to achieve 45% renewable energy by 2020. That left Britain trailing behind, as it has not reached its 20% target. At that time, I also set a target of 50% for recycling, which I was told was too high. That was for 2020. When I came back into office, we achieved that. I have set new targets for recycling, which, I believe, we will again achieve.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. The Member talks about cooperation, and that is certainly key to all this. Will he agree with me that we also need internal cooperation so that, when there are opportunities for renewable energy projects, we all ensure that we get those projects over the line? The benefit of renewable energy projects is that we in Northern Ireland will be able to go down the route of producing hydrogen, so that the vehicles that the Member talks about travelling between North and South can run on a non-fossil fuel, which is critical. If we resist renewable energy projects, however, it will be hard to achieve carbon neutrality.”
“<BR /> <BR />I hope that Members will recognise that this Bill — the Executive Bill — will deliver on the New Decade, New Approach agreement commitments; will help to deliver net zero for the UK and across these islands; and will set Northern Ireland on a balanced pathway towards a sustainable low-carbon economy in which key sectors can prosper and grow through a just transition. The Bill is supported by the key sectors that will have the most important part to play in reducing our emissions, and it will help us to protect and support those sectors. It is based on the evidence and advice from the experts. It is an effective piece of legislation that places clear duties on all Northern Ireland Departments and includes robust scrutiny and reporting requirements. We, as an Executive and Assembly, need to tackle climate change head-on.”
“<BR /> <BR />I recognise that the AERA Committee will play a key role in scrutinising the Bill. My officials have already been constructively engaging with the Committee. That engagement will increase. I appreciate that, at this stage in the mandate, the Committee is under a lot of pressure to perform its crucial scrutiny role efficiently and effectively, but I know how important climate change is for the Committee, and I look forward to further engagement during the Committee Stage. My officials and I will be happy to provide any support that the Committee needs as it conducts its business in respect of the Bill.”